What I don't know about goaltending is a lot. They are all a little crazy and people make fun of them, but I have a buddy who plays goal and his phone rings off the wall all winter long. Goalies are a pain in the ass but man if your favorite team's goalie can't stop the puck it's a miserable existence.
It's rarely a brave injury that shuts them down; most goalies get up from the massive hits that you'd expect to bring injury. It always seems like they come up wonky after a simple shot or after mangling the puck behind the net. Then there's the 20 minute delay we endure when the goalie skates over to the bench for equipment repair. Since no one talks to goalies, no one really knows how to fix their equipment.
Goalies. They should come through a different door.
--
The Philadelphia Flyers are apparently shopping Sergei Bobrovsky. He's young, has a good track record and doesn't cost the moon. What's the problem? I think there are two problems. First, there are some flaws (according to the experts). The Goalie Guild's Justin Goldman has identified some things about the Russian:
- Technically speaking, Bobrovsky's quick gloves, blazing-fast feet and razor-sharp reflexes actually allow him to make many tough saves look easy. His active hands do a great job of sealing holes and snagging loose pucks and high shots. His explosive lateral pushes also make it difficult to score on him low.
- These raw skills and strong mental traits make him an exceptional talent for a 22-year old. But for a guy listed at 6-foot-2, his hunched-over appearance and wide stance cause him to appear more like a 5-11 goalie.
- So when Bobrovsky fails to challenge a shooter -- or is caught too deep in his crease -- he exposes even more space above the shoulders. This forces him to always be as aggressive as possible, which then causes him to over-commit, lose his net or his angles, move too much and lack patience when a shot is taken.
I think the second problem here is that the Flyers (specifically their owner) may be suffering from an addled mind. You can't blame the guy, he's gone from Bernie Parent (money) to Chaos Incorporated over the years, so goaltenders have probably ruined his brains and his nerves. I'm not sure Bobrovsky is the problem in Philly, and this summer's events offer some evidence.
Tell me why the Oilers shouldn't take a chance on this player. What's wrong with him?
JDD a Duck per Matheson.
ReplyDelete2 yr deal. 2 Way the first year, one way the second.
I think Bob got caught deep in his net a little often for my liking. I'm a little bit old school so I'm not a big fan of goalies playing so far back.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I would definitely take a flyer on the young guy.
I actually do rent-a-goalie here in Winnipeg and we're fairly busy in the winter. We're always short tenders. If anybody in the area knows some guys that play net and want to get paid a few bucks let me know.
I'd sign him. How much is a fair price though? 1.5M? 2.5M?
ReplyDeleteCan't be worse that Khabi.
Zero reason why we shouldn't take him unless it's at the wrong price. Sounds a bit like Deslauriers problems in a smaller goalie with more skills, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteHe's got 2 years left at $1.75M according to cap geek. Then he's an RFA.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the Oilers would have to trade for him.
ReplyDeleteIf they want a D-man I'd offer Gilbert and/or Chorney. I'm not sure I'm ready to part with Gagner up front. What do you think they want and what would you give LT?
ReplyDeleteTell me why the Oilers shouldn't take a chance on this player. What's wrong with him?
ReplyDeleteWhy are the Flyers trying to get rid of him? Is Mike Leighton better?
The only caution I have is that he had the same save % with the Flyers as Brian Boucher did last year. Boucher is the definition of journeyman.
That .915 save % is almost certainly going to go down when Pronger et al are not around.
I'd give up Chorney, or a pick. I wouldn't give up much, the Oilers are already helping them with the cap number.
ReplyDelete2 years at 1.75M isn't bad.
ReplyDeletePIC: Gilbert AND Chorney? I think that's too much. We need defensemen, and last time I checked, this team doesn't have that many quality Ds.
I'd send Chorney and some picks for Bob. Isn't Philly close to the cap?
Ducey:
ReplyDeleteBrian Boucher was ''League average''
Ryan Miller had ,916.
Typical journeyman.
As for SV% going down with lesser defense, do we have to go on this again?
There's tons of goalies with crap defenses who put up great SV% numbers.
Bad defenses allow a lot of shots, not better shots.
You just want to have SpongeBob and Mr.Krabs in the system, LT.
ReplyDeleteWhy shouldn't we trade for him? Let's see.
ReplyDelete- It makes too much sense?
- The cost would be too much?
- It'd be a public admission that signing MVP was a mistake.
But other than that I can't see why.
Oh and Philly was 5th in shorthanded situations, so Bobrovsky's SV% should be augmented a bit.
ReplyDeleteIs he a possibility for the goalie of the future?
ReplyDeleteCan he mentor DD, Roy, or Buntz?
If no to both - don't take him.
No kidding. Their cap situation would suggest maybe not Gilbert. The cap space and Chorney is probably the best thing they COULD get that I would offer. Maybe a 7th round pick too.
ReplyDeleteAfter Pronger, Timonen, Carle and Coburn Philly's defense is thin. They need a defensemen or goalie most. I don't know if Edmonton would give them the best return for that player overall. If so I like it.
*Back-up goalie
ReplyDeleteDucey
ReplyDeleteExpect Philly will want to pick up the difference between what Bob is making and what you can pay a 25 game backup. Probably save $1m per
He is the right age, his salary comes off books before HOPE ELC come to an end and we KNOW Khabby ain't getting it done.
I say sure unless we think there is a good UFA/RFA keeper available next year we like better like .....Harding in Minny?
He was 22 and posted ,915
ReplyDeleteThat's above (Same age):
Carey Price
Ryan Miller
Jonas Hiller
Cam Ward
Pekka Rinne
Roberto Luongo
Henrik Lundqvist
M-A Fleury etc...
no matter what happens, MVP will be with the oil for 1 more year. It makes senses from a business side..ie.real money.
ReplyDeleteST would love to buy him out, but alas, that hit over 4 years is the deal killer. They will need that cap space to resign the kids.
What makes more sense, is play him this year as a back up. Buy him out with one year left, unless he can be traded. That means his salary is on the books for 3 years (1 full, 2 at buy out price).
@loudog not both unless their moving more with BOB. But ya if they started the conversation with Gilbert I wouldn't walk away. Maybe I ask for another guy (different D-man prospect/project maybe) too and offer Chorney as a sweetener. You're right we need defense but we have the forward assets to be able to trade for that if push comes to shove. I personally don't think Gilbert's game fits well here (he's still a good player) but I think he'd do better in the eastern conference. Chorney is a tweener but not likely a core peice.
ReplyDelete- It makes too much sense?
ReplyDelete- The cost would be too much?
- It'd be a public admission that signing MVP was a mistake.
This.
And the Oilers seem to like to bring in vets who really don't threaten the kids long term (Belanger excepted vis a vi Cogs, who isn't really a kid)
If the Oilers bring in someone who can, and probably will, beat 35 out of his roster spot, AND challenge #40 for his defacto #1 spot (post #35 and who the hell knows when that is) then the future is bright.
Otherwise the talk of "battling for roster spots" is just talk.
Mind you, past Belanger they really didn't improve much at all.
94 barged his way onto the roster, v3.1 didn't initiate the trade (although I like that he bent LAK over as he should have), and he takes the place of 27, who was good at hockey.
Taking a long shot flier on Barker isn't improving. Not that I disapprove, but without adding a top 4 D, its nothing but a low percentage bet to improve.
Eager is better than JFJ and might not be better at hockey than Zorg.
Hordichuk is better than Smac (at hockey) but that matters less than how Joey is folding the towels.
Sutton might be slightly better than Struds, but not Vandermeer (at hockey, not fighting)
Rambling, but in short they won't take Bob because it goes against their world view of pre-ordaining every spot on the roster and he would probably supplant 35 and might make 40 nervous.
In fact they probably keep Chorney up after camp and put Petry down (if they are both with the club then) due to waiver eligibility.
This team is allergic to cutting players loose when they should, then patting themselves on the back when they cut them loose 2 years after they should have.
Philly won't want salary so I expect they're looking for a blue chip or good pick. After the Varlamov trade they're probably looking for a 1st rounder.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I would pay that price.
In regards to Khabibulin's contract, keep in mind that his cap hit of $3.75M counts towards the Oilers cap for the next two years REGARDLESS of what they do.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Capgeek, because Khabibulin has a 35+ contract:
1) If Khabi retires, his contract still counts towards the cap
2) If Khabi is bought out, we save money on his actual salary, but his cap hit still counts
3) If Khabi is assigned to the minors, his cap hit is reduced by $100 000, but the rest still counts towards the cap
Basically, we're screwed with a $3.75M cap hit for the next 2 years unless we can trade him. Buy-out / minors saves us nothing except a roster spot.
Philly won't want salary so I expect they're looking for a blue chip or good pick. After the Varlamov trade they're probably looking for a 1st rounder.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I would pay that price.
I doubt that.
Bob isn't Varly (or Marley for that matter)
Wouldn't doubt a 3rd/4th getting it done.
Didn't we sign Khabby back when we were trying to compete? Oops!!
ReplyDelete@Pisani's Irish Cousin:
ReplyDeleteGilbert? You are joking right?
PIC: Yes, its possible Tom Gilbert would do better in the Eastern conference. After all, he isn't that physical but remains a quality D. He's likely to improve after last year mind you, so I'd keep him. Why trade him if we would essentially have to replace him? PLUS we still need another veteren D.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree. Chorney by himself for Bob is probably not enough, so you throw in some picks, maybe a 2nd rounder.
I still think Cogs is gone come September. If we can get Bob, we're in a much better position (cause that would mean maybe they don't think of Khabi as the defacto goaltender).
But I'll believe it when I'll see it.
Yeah, having Bob would be better than not having Bob...and then Oilers can have themselves a real training camp battle in goal.
ReplyDeleteI like Bob's athleticism, but like a poster above said, he plays a little deep in the net. He has Cujo syndrome. The Oilers really could use an athletic goaltender.
ReplyDeleteHey!
ReplyDeleteIsn't it "Get Shorty"?
And "What About Bob?"
Here's Helene Elliott's tweets in order regarding Lombarbi and the Oilers (Elliott is Kings beat writer, and first woman inducted into the HHOF)
ReplyDeleteKings GM Dean Lombardi says club will "look at our legal avenues" regarding Colin Fraser's injuries and inability to play following trade
Lombardi says Oilers told him Fraser would be cleared to play after foot fracture but Kings' docs found fracture, cyst and blood disorder
Says Fraser needs surgery. 'he's not anywhere near being cleared to play according to our doctors and in fact is going to need surgery. more
this came after Kings determined Brule wasn't procedurally cleared to play and took Fraser instead. says cyst, blood disorder not disclosed
more lombardi: "The bottom line for me, I would have rather invested my money with Bernie Madoff than invest in Edmonton's word."
You can't write this stuff.
This sound more like the guys who would sign Khabby and try to trade for Heatley than guys who are going through a patient rebuild.
Wait a minute...
Well, back in the day "get Bob" meant you'd be going to town for a dozen Bohemian beer and a pack of Sportsmen's cigarettes.
ReplyDeleteWG: Terrific stuff. Sounds like the Oilers and Kings can't come to agreement re: compensation.
ReplyDeleteYou can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lawyer around here, so I'd be interested in knowing "explore legal avenues" means "the league says we're screwed but are going to rattle as many cages as possible via pr route."
Thoughts from the men in black? I would think that if they had some legal action to take that would be underway and a public comment on that item would be verboten?
Of course, this is the league that makes it up as they go along, so....
If they want a D-man I'd offer Gilbert and/or Chorney.
ReplyDeleteOr?
As in, well give you a good Top-4 NHL defenseman
OR
this undersized defenseman who is -80 in his three-year pro career?
That or?
gononmed - my approach to Oiler viewing this coming winter
Are those the same Kings' doctors that misdiagnosed Colton Teubert?
ReplyDeleteLombardi should be very careful here, as his owner and Batman are business partners.
ReplyDeleteSo is it safe to say we have shut the door on another trading partner in the kings?
ReplyDeleteHow many multi year contracts have these clowns tried to pawn off, buy out or run away from again?
Does anyone seriously still think they know what they are doing?
@Maudite
ReplyDeleteGilbert is no Ryan Whitney.
On a championship team he's a good 4-5 guy and 2nd pp unit. A defensemen that plays 16-20 min a night ideally for me. A perfect fit right now for Philly.
We could wait until we were competing and still have him ( and have paid $4M a year for the rest of this contract ) and then maybe re-sign him to be just that but that's how I see him.
@loudog
Gilbert is a warm NHL body I suppose. Just the wrong one for this team right now. I'm not sure how much more Gilbert can improve in any way unless it's to gain confidence from his experience.
He is skilled but not always a great decision maker, he's venerable to the forecheck, and average defensively.
If he moves the puck quickly with good vision then I'm ok with him but not high on him.
Kings GM Dean Lombardi says club will "look at our legal avenues" regarding Colin Fraser's injuries and inability to play following trade
ReplyDeleteI would expect that the league would have clauses in the constituting documents (league bylaws?) that would bar a lawsuit from one team against another. There are probably provisions that require teams to submit disputes to the league.
So why is Lombardi mouthing off to thru his puppet Helen instead of just taking action? Probably because he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Either that or he has anger managment issues? The Madoff comment is below the belt.
The whole thing is bizarre. We are led to believe that LA just wants a pick an no salary back. Now they are supposedly upset they can't use the player until October. Its Colin Fraser, FFS.
Bad defenses allow a lot of shots, not better shots.
As usual fpb, so much conviction - so little evidence.
@Mr DeBakey
ReplyDeleteIf we trade Gilbert that's cap room for us too you know. Meaning we could trade to take on a different defensemen or maybe even sign a RFA (just an option, not saying we should). Maybe sign different UFA's.
I would argue Gilbert being a GOOD top 4 option. I would settle with him being a top 4 option.
Chorney brings different things than Gilbert (smaller cap hit) and still has skill. He could improve before Gilbert could.
Well, he could.
ReplyDeleteHe certainly has lots of room for it.
Dean Lombardi is just doing his Brian Burke impersonation. He's trying tell proclaim to everyone that he isn't an idiot even though on the surface it looks like he is.
ReplyDeleteHe should just keep quiet, he has a nice looking team in LA, one ready to make a big push. No need for this.
Wash trades Fehr to Winni. Looks like they are under the cap now.
ReplyDeleteAllow me to specify:
ReplyDeleteNOT Gilbert and Chorney straight up.
Bringing in Bob would be a good move. After all you can never have too many good players. Bob for Cogliano or a third round pick or some similair spare part would be acceptable to me. Although doing so would put some impetus on the "find some team at the cap floor to dump Khabibulin to". Maybe Winnipeg could be induced to take him for nostalgia reasons.
ReplyDeleteOf course Chorney could improve.Because he can't get any worse.He will never be the player Gilbert is.
ReplyDeleteIn another vein the Gilbert hate is absolutely insane. He had a down year on a last place team which had more injuries than your average military hospital while the goaltending behind him in the form of our vodka swilling tender was abysmal. But Gilbert remains a guy who can legimately play top four minutes on a good NHL team. We need two more of him not to run him out of town FFS.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall Lombardi being this pissed in the past, suspect there's something here. If I had to guess, it would be that he didn't want to deal Smyth in the first place, has had to re-work the deal twice and then got screwed over anyway.
ReplyDeleteBut the fact that he's talking about it in this fashion sounds to me as though he's explored avenues and they have been denied.
Maybe Oilers? Maybe NHL? Maybe both?
Either way, it's a great story.
Pisani's Irish Cousin,
ReplyDeleteAre you really equating Tom Gilbert and Taylor Chorney?
On a championship team he's a good 4-5 guy
What are you basing that on?
magisterexx,
Are those the same Kings' doctors that misdiagnosed Colton
Teubert?
Awesome.
Ducey,
So why is Lombardi mouthing off to thru his puppet Helen instead of just taking action? Probably because he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Either that or he has anger managment issues? The Madoff comment is below the belt.
I posted this at Tyler's the other day:
Re: Legal point on Fraser
I tend to agree on the “as is” part. I thought the other way (agreeing with Tambellini), then changed my mind.
If the Oilers say “as is”, and indicate the “is” = Broken foot bone that is healing and he can resume workouts right away, and the LA Doctors say the “is” is actually a bone that isn’t healing well and needs surgery on a bone cyst, then the Oiler’s “is” is not as they say.
Willis made a good comment saying this might just be a difference of opinion of two different doctors, but why are the Oiler doctors/medical staff always erring on the side of “get a stitch and get back out there!”?
Much like Bill Clinton, it might come down to what the definition of "is" is.
we can't trade gilbert right now. He's basically our only right-handed NHL defenseman. Plus, he is actually a decent top 4 d which we need to add to right now not subtract from.
ReplyDeleteby "right-handed defensman" I meant "defensman that shoots right".
ReplyDeleteDucey: Ah for the love of.
ReplyDeleteAlready posted multiple fucking times. (Guess what, you don't have evidence either)
Top 15 teams in Shots for this year:
11/15 in the playoffs (11/11 outshot the opponent, out of the other 4, 2 got outshot)
5/15 for the bottom guys (Out of the 5 who made the playoffs, 2 teams outshot their oppositions)
(Out of 10 who didn't make it, only 2 outshot their oppnents)
12 teams out of 16 who outshot their opponents didn't make the playoffs.
3 teams out of 14 who got outshot by their opponent made the playoffs.
Top 10 teams in scoring:
SJS, DET, BOS, BUF, CHI, TB, STL, CGY, VAN, PHI
Top 10 teams also in shooting:
SJS, DET, BOS, BUF, CHI, VAN, PHI, TBL
8 Out of 10.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/07/kings-ryan-smyth-dean-lombardi-colin-fraser.html
ReplyDeleteYeah, it sounds to me as though this is a done deal and the league has washed their hands of it. Great article, I don't really know much about Helene Elliott but she's a helluva writer.
@Woodguy
ReplyDeleteI thought Thomas Kaberle this playoffs reminded me at times of Tom Gilbert but a little better.
I think Kaberle is capable of playing much better. I think Gilbert can play better... but maybe only about as well as Kaberle this playoffs.
I saw Kaberle as a 4ish on the Bruins that played powerplay.
Brownless has more info on the Kings cluster@#$* here.< text
ReplyDeletePIC,
ReplyDeleteOk, Kaberle wasn't as advertised.
What do you base calling Gilbert a 4-5 on a cup team?
You may be right, but I want to know why.
So a young Richard Dreyfuss is playing Lombardi in this soap opera?
ReplyDeleteThe resemblance is uncanny.
At this point, I don't think the Oilers are going to say much (Terry Jones has a tweet saying they need to respond).
ReplyDeleteWhy? The NHL must be aware of this issue, and I can't imagine anything released today will come as a surprise.
So, as bad as it may look, this is a matter of the LAK being angry that the Oilers won't return their calls.
From an Edmonton POV, it's done unless the league calls them. imo, the bigger issue is that it does call into question the honor of the Edmonton Oilers management group.
But that will play out as time goes on and teams make trades with Edmonton.
Or not.
He added, “In my 20 years I’ve never had this happen once, let alone twice in one week. And people used to think maybe I was crazy but when I was scouting for Philly, Edmonton was my favorite city because of the history of the building and the crowds seemed like honest, working-class people. You still had a blue-collar feel at times. And I don’t think this conduct is emblematic of that city at all.”
ReplyDeleteLombardi said one possible solution would be for the Oilers to take Fraser back until he’s fit to play. The Kings can't waive or trade Fraser if he's injured and unable to play.
An Oilers spokesman said General Manager Steve Tambellini was traveling and unavailable for comment.
Where do you start with 3 paragraphs that read like that?
So we gave'em broken garbage out of a pile of garbage.
ReplyDeleteI don't get it. Not like we don't have other garbage left.
WG: I think you start by asking these questions:
ReplyDelete1. Why would Lombardi go public in this way? (answered in the article)
2. Would the Oilers make the situation better by making a statement or holding a media conference?
Now, behind the scenes I suspect they've got a call in to the NHL, but I don't see much benefit to the organization in having Tambellini stand in front of a bank of microphones and say they're innocent.
Missed opportunity on the blog title.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103241/
But that will play out as time goes on and teams make trades with Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteOr not.
Kings are off the menu for a few years, but NHL GM's make deals because they benefit their team, not the trade partner.
Minor issue.
Much larger issue is, "are the Oiler's medical staff competent?"
You have laundry list of players getting hurt (or re-injured from playing too soon), Souray saying management had no clue he was in the hospital fighting a blood infection, Bona Bruele, Fraser,etc.
If there is smoke there is fire, what is there when you can't breath or see across the street?
Well in my defense it's a terrible movie.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy: Wasn't Souray the reason they flushed the last bunch of medics? Where in hell is Randolph Mantooth when you need him?
ReplyDeleteDucey: this site loves corsi and Fenwick. shot from the point can have a 2.55 chance of scoring cross crease tap in has a 90%+ that si over 4500% variance in scoring potential of data all having a value of one.
ReplyDeleteThis site loves this! And your asking for evidence. Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Ducey try this one. Putting your tongue on a 9V battery and sticking it in a light socket have the same shock affect. Trust me. It is just like corsi. All the same.
Oops. I see it's already been discussed. That's the second time I've been scooped today.
ReplyDeleteI can understand Lombardi's bitterness.When he traded for Penner he thought his left side was set.Now he realizes it is worse
ReplyDeletethan the 30th place team from last year.
LT,
ReplyDelete1) Lombardi covering his public ass for getting hammered in this trade and not getting satisfaction behind the scenes.
2) I'd like to know what the Oiler's doctors told Tambellini in regards to Fraser's health. Nobody's perfect, but if the guy who missed a mending bone and cyst is the same guy looking after Taylor Franchise's ankle and Hemsky's shoulder then should we as a fan based get on our knees and pray for health?
Wood guy nailed it:
ReplyDeleteThe big issue or elephant in the room right now is: how competent are the Oiler's medical staff?
This question has to be answered.
Woodguy: Wasn't Souray the reason they flushed the last bunch of medics? Where in hell is Randolph Mantooth when you need him?
ReplyDeleteAnd here I thought the problem was the Mandlebaum's
Rickibear: No. But no system has really proven to limit the inside scoring chances much.
ReplyDeleteUsually teams who get massively outshot but go by, do it because of great goaltending.
LT, I'm gonna need your blogger password to start doing some test runs on getting all the data from here into wordpress. Send me an email. It's an easy process but there's bugs and quirks that we will have to iron out I'm sure.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy: I see your point, and agree completely. The Oilers can't be second best in this area.
ReplyDeleteMy questions:
1. What was the gap between the Oilers doctors examination and the LAK seeing Fraser.
2. Is it possible to have two qualified people be this far apart on an injury?
Are the LAK correct in their diagnosis? I read somewhere that Fraser was going to get another opinion.
Perhaps that's why this is coming back today?
Danny: I'll send it right away.
ReplyDeleteLT, I'm gonna need your blogger password to start doing some test runs on getting all the data from here into wordpress. Send me an email. It's an easy process but there's bugs and quirks that we will have to iron out I'm sure.
ReplyDeleteYay!! Edit buttons and beer money!!
LT,
1) Early on Willis speculated it could be as much as different opinions from different doctors. Seems like more now, and those questions need answers.
2) No clue, but missing how a bone is healing AND a developing cyst (and blood disorder?!?!?!) is a pretty wide margin from this non-medical person's seat
Perhaps that's why this is coming back today?
Good guess. I doubt he goes volcanic with some good supporting evidence.
Mmm, sorta the Mike Sirotka-David Wells trade deux. Gord Ash vs. Kenny Williams. Williams flipped out some and sounded like a total thuggish goof when his credibility was challenged by Ash (Toronto).
ReplyDelete@ Woodguy
ReplyDeleteWhy he isn't top 3 material:
Good skater not great. Weak against the forecheck. Good vision not great. Great passing not elite. Only a decent slap shot and does not use it often. Good wrist shot not great and he uses it to infrequently. Good d-zone coverage sometimes (not great), highlighted by his reach and good stick and prone to big lapses in defensive vision at other times. I could probably go on but I'll leave it there.
Bottom line is I demand more from a top 4 player.
Pisani's Irish: Are you talking about Gilbert? Man, he's a very good hockey player. By eye and by math, Gilbert's one of the two best D on the team and you'd get an argument from many here about whether or not Whitney is the better man.
ReplyDeleteHad a couple long ones eaten by Blogger.. One more try from the BB.
ReplyDeleteTom Gilbert is to Taylor Chorney as Linus Omark is to Ryan Jones. Its somewhat depressing that so many Oiler fans would like for the latter two to be in the lineup.
If Bob costs less than a 2nd then quit pussy footing around and bring him in. Let Dubnyk, Danis and Bob battle it out for 1, 2 and 3. Either deal Boozy to a floor team or just simply buy him out.
Hell, with a fix in net we may only be a top 4 D away from those playoff thingies that look so fun.
Oh.. And if Lombardi hadn't spent the last 2 weeks making media leaks, I may actually give a shit about his complaints.
LT: That sounds like a bit too much. I mean Whitney had more assists in 35 games than Gilbert had points in 77.
ReplyDeleteMan, I take the wife out to dinner and while I'm gone someone puts forth a serious contention that Gilbert and Chorney have similar trade value! Really?!?!? I'd do a damn cartwheel if we could get anything of value for Chorney at this point.*
ReplyDelete*Note: will not actually do a cartwheel.
As for the Fraser situation, unfortunately, we don't have any reliable source of information that can help us determine which side might actually be telling the truth. The Oilers medical staff may have screwed up here and missed a diagnosis. On the flip side, it seems like the Kings may not have done their due diligence here and are experience a sizeable case of buyer's remorse. With no recourse with the league, the only thing Lombardi can do is vent frustration in the media.
Oilers management may not be a bunch of saintly geniuses, but Dean Lombardi certainly isn't a reliable source either.
LT,
ReplyDeleteI'm basing that analysis against what I'm looking for in a championship quality top 4 D-man. He is well within the top 4 here and now but where would he be on the Philly team? Or Boston's cup team? Or Chicago's? Or Detroit's? Or Pittsburgh's?
I see him as a 4 at best on most of those teams. Probably a 5.
That means he's better than players that won on those teams, but not a vital piece. Still a quality player.
I think the numbers show him slightly better than he is in some ways (defensively) and slightly worse in others (I think he is capable of more offense).
I'm just looking for more offense or more defense from a top player. He's good (not great) at both imo. I don't hate him or prey everyday that we shed him (like I did with P.O.S.) but I think it might be beneficial to both parties if we moved him East.
I'd take Jeff Petry over Tom Gilbert today if I had to choose and salary and contract type weren't an issue.
ReplyDeletePIC,
ReplyDeleteI think I understand where you are coming from, but you sound like you are making an argument why Gilbert isn't an Allstar, not a 3/4 Dman.
-Good skater not great.
After the top 60 Dmen skaters in the league are there 30 better than Gilbert?
Weak against the forecheck.
Perhaps, depends on what you are looking for, physical engagement or getting puck.
Good vision not great.
There are not 90 Dmen with better vision than Gilbert imo.
Great passing not elite.
See above. His first pass is certainly in top 60 imo.
Only a decent slap shot and does not use it often. Good wrist shot not great and he uses it to infrequently.
I don't like his shot either. His best shot is the wrister through traffic and slap-pass.
Good d-zone coverage sometimes (not great), highlighted by his reach and good stick and prone to big lapses in defensive vision at other times. I could probably go on but I'll leave it there.
More of the same for the above. There aren't 90 better Dmen than Gilbert on these items in the NHL, imo.
Bottom line is I demand more from a top 4 player.
3-4 Dmen from the final 8 teams in the playoffs (via total TOI/G in playoffs)
Boychuck
Ference
Edler
Erhoff
White
Demers
Ohlund
Clark
Coburn
Carle
Alzner
Green
Klein
Blum
Stuart
Rafalski
Pretty self explanatory.
That being said I'm admittedly high on Petry.
ReplyDeletePisani:
ReplyDeletePIT: Letang, Martin, Michalek, Lovejoy, Orpik, Engeland
I'd say 3rd-4th there
BOS: Chara, Seidenburg, Boychuk, Mcquaid, Ference, Kaberle
I'd say 3rd here
CHI: Seabrook, Keith, Hjalmarsson, Boynton, Cullimore, LEddy
I'd say 3rd here again.
Detroit: Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart, Ericsson, Kindl, Janik
I'd say 3rd here again
PHI: Pronger, Timmonen, Coburn, Carle, Meszaros, O'donell, Bartulis.
6th here tough.
So yeah a pretty big 3 in average.
But to each his opinion.
Edler
ReplyDeleteErhoff
White
Ohlund
Coburn
Carle
Alzner
Blum
Stuart
Rafalski
All play roles I deem to be more significant than Tom Gilbert could play. I think Gilbert would be middle to low in the pack of players you mentioned.
His passing is probably his best asset but his vision on the pass is spotty. Maybe it's the forwards not in good position but he got passes picked (by eye) far too often in bad spots last year. He got bailed out a lot too and that may not be reflected in the stats.
Here's a question:
Tom Gilbert or Tom Poti?
Pretty close but I go Poti.
That means in 1998 I would have taken 4 OILER defensemen ahead of Gilbert (Janne Niinimaa, Roman Hamrlik, Boris Mironov, Tom Poti). If you can't crack that top 4 than you can't convince me he should be a cup worthy top 4 D-man.
@ flamingpavelbure
ReplyDeleteI have him 3-5 on those lists so about a 4. It's just a style preference I guess.
Poti is injured and about to go on LTIR. This Gilbert conversation is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteCarry on.
@Wolfie However, I would definitely take a flyer on the young guy.
ReplyDeleteKinda hard, ahem, not to.
FPB,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on all until PHI.
O'Donell???
Mezaros is a stretch, but not as bad as O'Donell, Christ he's almost as old as I am.
The Oilers MD's are fine. Docs disagree on stuff all the time. More likely, though, is that some additional investigation was done when Fraser reported to LA that may not have been done in Edmonton. An xray to confirm healing is sufficient if the patient's symptoms are improving. LA may have decided to do some more advanced imaging (and blood tests for some reason??...not routine stuff on young healthy hockey players) like CT or MRI, and have found something that they feel needs additional surgery. You could show that MRI to 10 orthopods/radiologists, and get two thirds of them saying no surger is necessary, and one third saying it needs surgery to properly heal.
ReplyDeleteBeing a doc for an NHL team is a coveted position in medicine. The MD's are more or less handpicked and are typically the creme de la creme...leaders in the field of sports medicine. All NHL teams have top doctors. There is no difference in quality amongst teams, but there is always room for difference in opinion (and we can't rule out that the LA doctors aren't being prodded to help Lombardi frame the situation in the way wishes the public to see it.)
I think Lombardi is on the ropes here. Either he himself or somebody in the LA organization has loaded the pressure on him, and he is trying to diffuse any negative attention. Bizarre behaviour.
WG:
ReplyDeletePronger, Timmonen, Coburn, Carle, Meszaros
That's 5. Gilbert goes 6th, and O'Donell after. (Maybe after Bartulis)
WG: I would place Gilbert somewhere in that list as well. He's not spectacular but does his job well.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, he wasn't very offensive last year. Who was he playing with again? And on where did the oilers finish last year?
I think Gilbert is good, Whitney is better. I don't really notice Gilbert when he plays, unlike Whitney.
Not sure why we're talking Chorney vs Gilbert. I originally said I'd trade Chorney and + for Bob, but not Gilbert.
Here's hoping we can move cogliano, + ? or picks maybe for Bob.
I wonder what are the actual chances Bob gets traded to Edmonton?
We're probably talking Gilbert v Chorney in a trade because it's the same people who ran Poti out of town.
ReplyDeleteArguing with them is like standing and fighting in a burning house.
@ Woodguy: You're writing is classic. Only in an Oilers hockey blog can we discuss an injury a trade and wrap Bill Clinton into the conversation.
Outstanding stuff.
PIC,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
On a championship team he's a good 4-5 guy and 2nd pp unit.
Then when I posted the Championship 3-4 D (Ference and Boychuck), you omitted them from the list of players you would take over Gilbert.
Also,
Cam Charron who is one of the Dys writers on SBN put it very succinctly:
I can't decide whether the Oilers not knowing about, or lying about, the severity of Colin Fraser's injury is a worse scenario.
Ashley,
ReplyDeleteGood stuff. Thanks for for the expert opinion.
Rich,
Thanks, I'm flattered.
Ducey try this one. Putting your tongue on a 9V battery and sticking it in a light socket have the same shock affect. Trust me. It is just like corsi. All the same.
ReplyDeleteExcellent point. You win Ricki!
Fpb,
Understood. Teams that shoot more tend to win more. What does that have to do with whether Bob is going to get lit up if he came to EDM?
If Bob is being assisted by Giroux, Richards, Carter, Pronger and Carle I just have this crazy idea he might not face as many firedrills as DD would have behind Cogs, Gagner, Strudwick, Foster, a bunch of rookies et al.
If Bob stops .915 of relatively easy shots behind a defensively sound team, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume he might face a greater % of tougher shots on a defensively unsound team, does it?
@Pisani's Irish Cousin:
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, you may or may not have valid opinions on Gilbert or Chorney, and I won't comment on those - but you would be a terrible GM.
Giving up Gilbert+ when the asking price is lower is just insane.
Nashville gave up Franson+ to get cap room. Philadelphia needs cap room and has too many goalies. If anything, they'd be trying to do us a favour.
And you think Gilbert is a "starting point" for the conversation? That should be the ending point.
Asset management means overpaying as little as possible (or never). Nashville did it with Franson but I wouldn't suggest that - especially when we're not the ones in cap trouble.
Ducey: Ughhhhhh.
ReplyDeleteGood teams don't shoot better.
So when the Oil face good teams, they don't get out% they get outshot.
A good defensive doesn't allow a lot of shots. Or at least a good team doesn't get outshot a lot.
Out of the worst 15 teams in shots allowed, only 4 are top in the goals allowed.
There's been plenty of goalies being good on god awful teams.
Reimer, Vokoun, Anderson.
And Goalies on good teams being plentifully bad or ordinary
Fleury, Kiprusoff (This year he drowned the Flames alone), Smith, Ellis, Nittymaki.
The only teams who get away with being outshot, are teams with elite goaltending. That's it.
ReplyDeleteAt one time the Oilers used to have Dr.David Reid on staff.I think he was an orthopedic surgeon.May have also been employed by the Eskimos.
ReplyDeleteAnd he was team doc for various team Canada entries.
I am not positive but I don't think they use him anymore.
Lombardi would have a foot to stand on if he hadn't leaked every last detail of the deal to the press in a negotiating ploy.
ReplyDeleteNo clue why Lombardi went viral with his dissatisfaction. It is much to do about nothing. Oilers made an "As is, where is" trade. LAK accepted Fraser knowing there were zero representations as to Fraser's heath.
ReplyDeleteOilers will release AIWI paperwork tomorrow and the furor is over.
We should trade Tom Gilbert for a Snickers Bar.
ReplyDeleteSnickers satisfies.
Gilbert is no Ryan Whitney.
ReplyDeleteIf you adjust for score effects, they're actually very similar.
You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lawyer around here, so I'd be interested in knowing "explore legal avenues"...
I'm not sure, but you've got to be careful swinging dead cats - if you hit somebody, that's probably assault with a weapon, even if you weren't trying to hit anyone.
(In summary, Canadian criminal defense-types are unlikely to be of much use around here.)
Wow. Looks like Brownlee wrote all of about 4 sentences in that "article". Helene did most of the work.
ReplyDeleteDon't know why Lombardi has gone all Brian Burke over this issue. Is he trying to explain to fans why Fraser won't be in TC? Is he upset that a depth player won't be available for a month?
This sounds more like he's still pissed at the Penner deal.
The continuing controversies over medical issues and the Oilers is worrisome though.
Spoiler: that's exactly it. Lombardi feels the Oilers have managed to completely rip him off twice in about 4 months. They extracted a 1st round pick and a prospect for a "lazy" player, Dustin Penner (Lombardi's sentiments, not mine). Then, a few months after that screwjob, a key winger demands a trade to Edmonton, letting Tambellini acquire him for spare parts.
ReplyDeleteIf I were him, I'd be getting pretty pissed too, though that doesn't justify his public tantrum.
Apparently Lombardi wants the Oilers to take Fraser back until he is healed. Presumably that is Oct/ Nov.
ReplyDeleteWhy is he so miffed over having to pay for 2 months of Fraser? Its what $200K, and if he is on LTIR he doesn't count vs the cap.
He could be paying $6 million for Smyth
Dean Lombardi knows Ron Hextall is close to getting his job.
ReplyDeleteThe NHL almost certainly has rules that teams cannot sue each other, and that the league office settles disputes over trades. Isn't there now a conference call between the league and the two teams on every trade now going over the precise terms of the transaction?
Lombardi was fined $50000 for claiming Mike Murphy was biased against him because he wanted the Kings GM job.
The LA Kings doctors screwed up the diagnosis of Teubert's wrist injury.
Anschutz and Katz are business partners in a billion dollar arena district project.
Drew Doughty has still not signed a contract, and Lombardi needs to distract the media.
Lombardi keeps losing out on high profile free agent bidding wars, and needs to distract the media.
Dean Lombardi tossed left wings Mike Cammalleri and Alexander Frolov on the garbage heap.
The Kings only recourse likely would have been to void the deal, but I think they told the NHL and the world that they were not going to reverse the deal, so all this is just your basic bullying and intiimidation.
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ReplyDeleteI doubt Lombardi needs such a release, I imagine it's part of every SPC considering player health info is released so frequently. Every sports site has an Injury Report specifically to publically release info about player health.
ReplyDeleteIt would be an improvement on our roster, but a couple of issues:
ReplyDelete1) can Bob be assigned to the AHL without waivers?
2) If not, would acquiring him cut into the playing time we need to give Dubnyk so he can complete his development?
I'd prefer the Oilers cut MVP loose, and get an experienced yet good goalie who can mentor Dubynk and play a third of the time, mostly vs. tough competition where you don't want your young keeper thrown to the wolves.
There's also the compensation to acquire him. If Philly wants close to what Washington got for Varlamov, forget it.
Why does everything thread these days have a trade Tom Gilbert insertion?
ReplyDeleteHe IS one of our best d men on a team that is short of top 4 D men
His cap hit is reasonable
He seems like a good guy in the room.
In the future could the trade Tom Gilbert club members offer up a sensible and likely solution for the Oilers in the event that they got their wish or go somewhere else and start your own trade Tom Gilbert blog.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhy does everything thread these days have a trade Tom Gilbert insertion?
ReplyDeleteMaybe a snappy nickname would help his cause? There's some good suggestions from Oil teammates here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Np8xgSHr94 (about 1:37 in). Personally, I like Smid's suggestion best. I think he's onto something with that one.
MVP last year stats:
ReplyDelete10 wins
32 losses
Set record for most consecutive losses.
We should make the playoffs.
"Maybe a snappy nickname would help his cause? "
ReplyDeleteMelissa.