Thursday, December 16, 2010

Jackets at Oilers G31 '10-'11

I know a lot of people who felt strongly about the Hall-Seguin selection. Fully half of them felt Seguin was the better plan. I'm not saying those folks are hard to find these days or that the debate is over (this will go on until one of them falters, if they ever do), but the Taylor Hall brigade have some things to brag about these days.

Hall is getting scoring chances (lordy is he getting chances) and he's helping way more than an average 19-year old rookie.

Using Dennis King's scoring chances as our measuring stick, the kid Hall is still having an impact since the Horcoff injury (24-27 in SC's at EVs) although not at previous levels. The Toronto game (and a few others before) tell us that the opposition has taken notice and that Hall and the other kids will be taking several lumps between now and the end of the season.

Which brings us to Steve MacIntyre, JF Jacques, Zack Stortini and the rest. The city is up in arms currently because Hall got a facewash from Phaneuf. I think we sometimes forget these things, but since early days (to borrow a line from Spinal Tip "hundreds of years before the dawn of history") enforcers are not effective unless they're on the ice with the skill player a team hopes to protect. We see this in history (John Ferguson played LW with Beliveau, Bossy ran with Trottier and Gillies) and the Oilers will need to do the same. In this way, Pat "hey, JF Jacques you're on the first line" Quinn was attempting to address the problem.

Tonight, when the Oilers send Gagner, Hall and Eberle out against some ruffian from the heart of America, imagine a big, skilled, grumpy winger from the Clark Gillies tree playing on that line. Yes, the Oilers need a big center and they need a #1D (whatever that is) but they also need players with size who can actually play the game.

From the Brad Winchester selection through Zack Stortini and beyond, the Oilers drafted Coke Machines in hopes they'd turn into actual players. Stu MacGregor is drafting kids with skill and size in hopes of grabbing a top 6F talent who can impact the physical part of the game while playing important minutes. It's a better plan, but these growing pains are going to continue until someone with size, skill and a mean streak graduates to the show.

I think we should also be prepared for Taylor Hall to eventually take matters into his own hands. I think he's the kind of kid who'll only take so much from the opponent before he does a face wash of his own. The kid's a dandy, and he's almost grown.

282 comments:

  1. Enough of these tiresome hockey games, I want to know who #20 is.

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  2. Oiler Mag: Tomorrow I'll have the alternate #19 up and then #20 on the weekend. As an added item, I'll have the full list on one page (as I've done in the past) with many other prospects listed (and why they're outside the top 20).

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  3. So where do you see Hall topping out at then LT, boxcars-wise? 40G 40A? More/Less? Certainly I see him as a 40 goal scorer, if not more, but his assists are a little more of a question mark. He's a great passer, but with his shoot-first mentality he could end up being a rick nash type talent rather than an all-round scorer. But we'll see. I'm certainly not complaining as the Oil haven't had a legitimate scorer of Goals in lord knows how long. He's a franchise player for sure, lets just hope he plays his whole career here (be nice for someone to do that for once!)

    Oh and I agree wholeheartedly with C.McDonald as #20 LT, the guy could be a poor-man's Pisani and for crying out loud do we need one of those right now...

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  4. oops I meant McDonald at #19, my bad.

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  5. Your right LT, the Oilers need a guy like Lucic - who will also end up getting paid more than he is worth because his QT is so high.

    The other approach is the Detroit method - punish at will on the PP.

    Finding Penner with a mean streak is a daunting task though.

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  6. Stu MacGregor is drafting kids with skill and size in hopes of grabbing a top 6F talent who can impact the physical part of the game while playing important minutes. It's a better plan, but these growing pains are going to continue until someone with size, skill and a mean streak graduates to the show.

    Spot on sir.

    I have no faith in v3.0 to be able to EVALUATE other NHL talent and bring this type of player in.

    Its more Management By Bastard (MBB). Wait for the draft picks to get older.

    I wrote this in the Martindale thread:

    I am giddy with the combination of size and skill in the top 13 so far:

    (sources for heights and weights from oilers.nhl.com)

    1) Hall 6'1 194lbs
    2) Eberle 6'0 185lbs
    3) Paajarvi 6'3 200lbs
    4) Marincin 6'4 187lbs
    5) Peckman 6'2 234lbs
    6) Hamilton 6'3 202lbs
    7) Pitlik 6'2 195lbs
    8) Omark 5'10 174lbs
    9) Lander 6'0 194lbs
    10)Plante 6'4 230lbs
    11)Dubnyk 6'6 202lbs
    12)Petry 6'3 196lbs
    13)Martindale 6'3 183lbs


    Until the future does become now, maybe LT isn't insane and McDonald could have a place in the line up.

    Wouldn't hurt to look.

    Oilers actually moved up to 27th in the league in regards to points % after Florida lost last night.

    Here's the bottom 5:

    OTT 0.453
    EDM 0.450
    FLA 0.448
    NJD 0.333
    NYI 0.268

    By the end of January I think the Oilers will be 29th.

    There is no catching The Snow Job, and NJD are coming around, they beat a good Phoenix team last night 3-0.

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  7. One of Strudwick, Smid, or Peckham was probably also on the ice when Phaneuf pulled his usual nonsense. I'm not crazy about Smid fighting, but either of the other two should have jumped in there.

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  8. but these growing pains are going to continue until someone with size, skill and a mean streak graduates to the show.

    And the Edmonton Oilers with their 4th overall pick select Gabriel Landeskog!

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  9. I was sure that today's thread would start with, "This is thecaptainethanmoreau". Glad to see I was wrong. Interested to see what the team does to acknowledge his first game back in Edmonton and what kind of reaction he gets from the crowd.

    As for the game, it will be tied late and theformercaptainethanmoreau will be behind the Oilers net and take a penalty 200 feet from his own net. The penalty should be easy to kill off because it's one of those aggressive penalties that we all know are easier to kill, and of course, it's against the Oilers. The Oil score the winner on the PP and theformercaptain blasts the Jackets PK post game for their inability to get the big kill. Book it.

    Clap, Clap.

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  10. I agree LT, I think Hall is full of piss and vinegar. He will - one day soon - stand up for himself. I love the edge that he brings.

    On a side note, it has been nice to see Penner stand up for the new teammates (Omark and Hall) when needed.

    As a former Jets fan (may they rest in peace) I wouldn't mind a player from the Paul MacLean tree. Moustache and all! He was a good linemate for a young Hawerchuk in the early 80's.

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  11. And the Edmonton Oilers with their 4th overall pick select Gabriel Landeskog!

    I'd be happy with that if Larsson and Couturier are gone by the time the Oilers pick. Not a RNH fan, but if MBS says ok, then The Word has spoken.

    The Edmonton Sun has theformercaptainethanmoreau listed as an extra forward.

    He played 15 minutes against the Dys last night. Does anyone know if he's been a healthy scratch?

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  12. I think there's a difference between an "enforcer" like MacIntyre and a "crazed bastard" like say, Kip Brennan who was here not that long ago. I'd much rather have seen Brennan in the lineup than Jacques or Mac. He at least had the possibility of doing something that would impact the game.

    Ideally you're right; we need Bill Guerin in his prime. I think the way to do this is to rely on a skill guy or two being big and ornery, rather than hoping the big guy can become a hockey player (they would be one already) or mean (positional hockey players don't change their stripes).

    Drafting these guys is an art...and you must (at least I would) not draft total boneheads like Downie and his ilk. They don't help you win ultimately.

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  13. Interested to see what the team does to acknowledge his first game back in Edmonton and what kind of reaction he gets from the crowd.

    How about if we retire his number above the penalty box in the third period?

    Nah, too Canucks-ish.

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  14. I'm with Sean. 'Phaneuf takes a penalty and then you score on it. He gets frustrated, takes another penalty and you score again. Then he gets stapled to the bench.'

    This method works over 'send out Smac to hit something. The something skates away before he gets halfway through his run. Stortini howls in frustration from the PB.'

    I expect another bloodletting tonight with game efforts from the foolish youngsters who know how to win. And if Hall keeps getting more reckless (as he has been in the last few games) he will get hurt. I hope not, but he can't play with abandon like that until he's over 30 because his body will start to break down.

    The long run is where Seguin will beat Hall out.

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  15. Moreau has been injured, has 4 pts, is a minus player and has a Rel Corsi of -15.4. Not much has changed.

    Ironically, this team could use a Moreau in his prime. He had some good years here.

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  16. The long run is where Seguin will beat Hall out.

    Said like a guy who has nothing to support a Seguin over Hall argument in the short term.

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  17. The city is up in arms currently because Hall got a facewash from Phaneuf.

    I only caught the highlights, but didn't Penner have Phaneuf in a choke hold after he did it? I thought that was a pretty good retaliation. We need more?

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  18. I was a guy who thought Seguin was the one they should have picked but I also figured it was so close to call that either way they could not go wrong. Figured the pivot was the way to go though.

    No complaints when they picked Hall and early on he's lapping the field. He has been absolutely terrific.

    As for the whole muscle thing, this is why Ted peckman is so important. Here's a guy who is mean and can play. MacIntyre is absolutely useless.

    Waste of a roster spot.

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  19. we need someone like downie. whoever said above that he's the wrong player is completely wrong. him and stamkos are best buds and feed off each other. downie can pot 20 and will jump anyone at anytime.

    i would gladly trade most of our squad for a guy like that.

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  20. Hall Pts/60 - 1.54
    Seguin Pts/60 - 1.49

    ...Could still go either way.

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  21. I'd like to see the oil capture center Mark McNeill
    from the Prince Albert Raiders this spring to play on Halls line.

    Edmonton kid. 6' 2" 210lbs. Shoots right.

    Have you kept an eye on this prospect Lowetide?

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  22. The Pts/60 trophy presentation is always my favourite part of the NHL Awards.

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  23. I'd like to see the oil capture center Mark McNeill
    from the Prince Albert Raiders this spring to play on Halls line.

    Edmonton kid. 6' 2" 210lbs. Shoots right.


    If he is actually eligible for this year's draft then he didn't make the WHL top 30 prospects. I don't think a 5th round player is the center you're looking for to play the first line.

    LT has brought up two things today that I don't like reading. Taylor vs. Tyler and the role of toughness on this team.

    I'd venture that the Oilers are thinking it's easier to get big strong defensemen then it is to get big mean forwards. So even if Hall is playing with a couple of cream puffs there will be a Peckham like dude on the ice to help him out.

    I have three of those rookie cards too.

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  24. The Pts/60 trophy presentation is always my favourite part of the NHL Awards.

    It's cool when someone cherry picks a stat to try and make these two players seem closer then they actually are at this point.

    There is also nothing to suggest Seguin wins in the long run.

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  25. I love cream puffs. Had a whole whack of them on Sunday at a pal's Christmas party.

    Plus those big beers. Love those suckers.

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  26. According to "The Scouting Report" McNeill is eligible in 2011 and is on the rise. He'll go higher than 5th round.

    http://www.thescoutingreport.org/whl-feature-draft-eligible-midterm-risers-fallers/

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  27. It's cool when someone cherry picks a stat to try and make these two players seem closer then they actually are at this point.

    I'm just trying to gauge better what each player is contributing. The 200 minutes of TOI difference is a pretty huge factor.

    Hall does look to be swinging harder at this point but I don't think there's enough to say he was the decisively better pick just yet.

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  28. We won't know who the best player in the Class of 2010 was for years and years. It's more than enough for me now that Hall looks as good as he does.

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  29. Said like a guy who has nothing to support a Seguin over Hall argument in the short term.

    Funny, I thought I ventured that as an opinion. The opinion being that Hall's body may break down if he keeps flying into boards/players/nets head first, and if his body breaks down then his production is likely to tail off. Seguin plays less physical and is less likely (though not wholly unlikely) to be significantly injured by his play should not see the same tail off. Lacking a crystal ball, I am short on the long-term data, but I am stepping up and admitting that I think Seguin will be better long term.

    I am happy to be wrong (and I am enjoying Hall's take-no-prisoners play right now) but at least I am being honest about what I thought after the fact.

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  30. Per Tencer...

    Hall-Gagner-Eberle
    Penner-Cogliano-Brule
    Paajarvi-O'Marra-Omark
    Jones-Fraser-Stortini

    Jacques and MacIntyre out.

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  31. Well at least they got the Jacques and MacIntyre part right.

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  32. On a completely off topic note, I just found out that one of my former students has gotten a five game tryout with the Regina Pats as a 15-yr old. And he manaaged an assist when he was here playing the Hitmen.

    It is kind of cool to see this kid who loves hockey like breathing making his way up the system. Definitely someone I will keep on eye on in the 2014 draft.

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  33. Here are the ISS top 15 for December. Presumably the Oilers 1st round pick is one of these guys?

    1 Couturier, Sean, C 6.04 195 Drummondville QMJHL
    2 Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan, F 6.00.5 170 Red Deer WHL
    3 Larsson, Adam, RD 6.03 209 Skelleftea SweE
    4 Landeskog, Gabriel, LW 6.00.25 205 Kitchener OHL
    5 Saad, Brandon, LW 6.01.25 208 Saginaw OHL
    6 Murphy, Ryan, RD 5.10.25 168 Kitchener OHL
    7 Armia, Joel, RW 6.03 191 Assat FinE
    8 Siemens, Duncan, LD 6.03 197 Saskatoon WHL
    9 Strome, Ryan, C 6.00.25 183 Niagara OHL
    10 Rask, Victor, C 6.01.5 194 Leksands SweAl
    11 Hamilton, Douglas, RD 6.04 190 Niagara OHL
    12 Puempel, Matthew, LW 6.00 198 Peterborough OHL
    13 Musil, David, LD 6.03.5 200 Vancouver WHL
    14 Khokhlachev, Alexandr F 5.10 188 Windsor OHL
    15 McNeill, Mark, C 6.01 204 Prince Albert WHL

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  34. I like that lineup a lot considering the personnel we have who are healthy.

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  35. The Pts/60 trophy presentation is always my favourite part of the NHL Awards.

    I dislike snide posts like this that suggest an argument without taking the time to actually make the argument.

    The original point was pretty clear: Seguin may be doing very well, even as well as Hall. We just haven't seen him play as much so we'll have to wait and see before we jump to conclusions. Points/60 is evidence of this.

    Please explain how the snide and irrelevant point about trophies shows the original claim is false or dubious.

    Now, I do think Hall has been fantastic, and better than Seguin. And I now suspect Hall will be the better player long term. But judging Seguin on his play in a few games in fewer minutes is just entirely unwarranted.

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  36. The point about TOI is particularly important when you think about the fact that Hall seems to have required quite a few minutes to find his game. Seguin may still be in that process.

    Again, that said, I'm about as high on Hall as it gets.

    I'm willing to say he's looking like he has a decent chance (I'll leave that vague) of being the third best player to ever play in Edmonton.

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  37. It's tough not to be biased about a guy we see play a lot. I've seen pundits out east make statements like Duchene>Tavares Seguin>Hall but then again a lot of hot air emanates from that part of the continent.

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  38. I figured the Oilers might end up picking around 6-8 before the season started. They look to be worse but Siemens would look good on this team if they're picking in the 6-8 area.

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  39. I figured the Oilers might end up picking around 6-8 before the season started. They look to be worse but Siemens would look good on this team if they're picking in the 6-8 area.

    I'm willing to give anyone +150 that they pick in the bottom 5.

    We are just at the tip of a .250 winning percentage streak.

    That percentage will mysteriously improve when 83 gets back, but not as much as it will when 10 gets back.

    They guys are, and will, simply get killed by the other team's top two lines.

    Penner, Whitney and Gilbert aren't enough to stop the opposition.

    Having 10 and 83 in the line up gives the Oilers 2 lines that can play with other teams's top two at about a .450 rate.

    If Whitney goes down any time soon for any length of time they could give NYI a run.

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  40. Common everyone, we are on the Chicago rebuild. That involves finishing 5th and winning the lottery.

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  41. Penner, Whitney and Gilbert aren't enough to stop the opposition.

    Oddly, you can maybe already add Hall and Eberle to that list. The boxcars and the underlying numbers seem to suggest you can, anyway.

    That's what's making a 5-6 pick look a little more likely to me, especially since it appears Hemsky will return with lots of games to play.

    If Whitney goes down any time soon for any length of time they could give NYI a run.

    Agreed. Whitney or Gilbert going down would make the team just embarrasingly bad every night.

    I'm going to guess we finish 5th from last with an end of season run.

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  42. Here’s an interesting fact: Grant Fuhr has a better career ppg average than Jason Strudwick. Fuhr had 36 points in 423 games, and Strudwick has 53 points in 643 games.

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  43. I'm willing to say he's looking like he has a decent chance (I'll leave that vague) of being the third best player to ever play in Edmonton.

    Considering how many hall-of-famers he'll have to pass to reach that point... well, I hope you're ok at coping with disappointment

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  44. I get the impression that this year, so far, the top 2 draft picks don't look markedly better than the rest of the top 6, in the same way -or to the same extent- that we saw last year with Hall and Seguin.

    Does that mean it isn't as crucial that we finish last to draft Couturier? Or, in other words, is it true that if we finish, say 4-6, we'll get a prospect who is close to being as good as the players picked 2-3 or even 1-3?

    I know there's been a lot written about the prospects, but I want to be clear about what people in the know think about this.

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  45. Seguin:

    GFON/60: 2.56 GAON/60: 1.92
    QC: -0.134 (11th) QT: -0.645 (Last)
    EV P/60: 1.49 PP P/60: 3,31

    Seguin plays against donkeys, with bigger donkeys and gets out of there as a winner. Scoring isn't that great due to reduced TOI.

    Hall:

    GFON/60: 2.24 GAON/60: 2.94
    QC: 0.069 (4th) QT: 0.044 (4th)
    EV P/60: 1.54 PP P/60: 2.70

    Hall plays with goodies and against the goodies. He scores a bit more than Seguin, but his teamates score less. And he gets scored a lot more than Seguin.


    So for now, Seguin's work gets his team a push in the right way, while Hall doesn't. Altough Hall scores a bit more. Seguin had the edge on the PP.

    Things say Seguin is actually a more useful player.

    THEN AGAIN! Hall is thrown to the wolves (With wolves) and still has to work on his defensive game which is perfectly understandable for an 18 years old.

    So both are tracking pretty good, but I maintain that Seguin's the better man.

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  46. Sean:

    As long as we don't finish 3rd we'll be OK. No one has ever won the lottery after finishing third so it's crucial we avoid that position.

    Favorite Gregor-ism ever. Even better than the two salary caps.

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  47. Kris: If Couturier played 70 games he would pace for 115 points.

    You just don't pass on a guy with 115 points and 6''4. It's like Eric Staal but bigger and with more scoring. Also a faceoff beast.

    Sean Couturier is the whole package. You don't pass on that.

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  48. Flaming - of course Seguin is playing with a goalie with a ridiculous save %age and for the most part Hall is playing with a guy with a sub .900 %age.

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  49. To start off on a 83 note, I'm not convinced he's coming back anytime soon. I've seen it mentioned now a couple of times that he's turned down interview requests and I'm starting to wonder if that he's not making any real progress and the Oilers know this and may drop the big "gone for the season" hammer just after the holiday season.

    Regarding Hall vs Seguin, I was all for the latter because everything seemed to point to them being equal and in that situation I'm gonna take the bigger kid who's also RH and a pivot every fucking time.

    That being said I couldn't be more pleased with 4 and it looks like my idea will be dead wrong in regards to that pick. That's not to say that Seguin won't explode into a PPG plus player but to look at where Hall is right now, it's hard not to be super excited.

    The kid to me plays a bit like OV in terms that he wants to and thinks he can score on every fucking shift. And here lately we're seeing some physicality from him and Messier was my idol when I was a kid but Hall is as close to the Moose archetype as I've seen and I love watching the guy play.

    As for the game, right now the Oilers need to split up 4-14 if are trying to win because you've got those kids plus 27-89 and then 91 to make up the top six and the battle is to find the sixth guy.

    This means 27 would have to play centre too - I read the other day where he said he'd like to do that - probably 23 would get the first shot at the 6th spot.

    So maybe something like 4-89-91 because 89's had chem with both of them.

    And then 23-27-14 because I bet 14 could fit in anywhere.

    Of course maybe this isn't the best idea because 4-14 play so well together but I'm just wondering how they can make this team a bit better and easier to watch.

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  50. Yeah, I know. Let's not overhype Hall.

    But he's got 8 ES goals in 30 games. And with the chances and shots he's getting, (11 SH%) it's hard to argue that there's any luck involved. (Maybe some bad luck that he doesn't have more.)

    He's on pace for 22 ES goals as an 18-19 year old. that's just fucking insane. (On pace for 222 shots, too.)

    I don't want to get carried away, but his current play at ES at his age is awe inspiring. Way beyond expectations.

    Some randomly selected, famous rookie seasons ES goals, none of them younger than Hall by more than a touch:

    Ovechkin 32 (older)
    Crosby 23
    Hall 22 (on pace)
    Heatley 19
    Malkin 17
    Stamkos 14
    Tavares 13
    Iginla 13
    Nash 11
    D. Sedin 10
    Gagner 9
    H. Sedin 7

    Different eras:
    Kurri 23
    Yzerman 26
    Mats Sundin 19
    Forsberg 23 (first full season)

    I know, small sample size. I'm cherry picking numbers. But man, if he keeps it up for the rest of the season. And then improves to the degree that you expect after rookie seasons.

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  51. Relative Corsi:

    Seguin: -7.5

    Hall: +16.4

    It's not the be-all and the end-all, but there are reasons beyond a strict offence count that Hall's getting a truckload of ice-time and Seguin's being broken in slowly.

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  52. JW: Boston has depth and good players. We don't.

    I think if Seguin was drafted by EDM he still would play a lot more.

    Oh and Seguin has the worst QT i've ever seen. (For a guy with more than a cup of coffee)

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  53. As I understand it, BOS 4th line is Marchand Stewart and Thornton so I don't think he plays those 4th line minutes.

    FPB how do you rationalize your first and third sentences?

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  54. ED: Well he plays with the piss-poor guys because there's enough players on the skill lines?

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  55. FPB: Good points to be sure. Relative team strengths and the Oilers' obvious desire to hype the rookies to the nth degree are both factors.

    And it's a long, long story that we've only seen the first few pages of.

    But I think Hall looks like the better player today.

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  56. JW: I think we should all have a seat and let them play for 2-3 years.

    Things will play themselves out.

    IIRC Hall went a good steak at the beginning of the season without scoring. Things change fast.

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  57. Pavel,

    Comparing this season's stats of Hall vs. Seguin has a few problems.

    First, there's the team effect and the Oilers are a brutal team.

    Secondly, many of LT's readers know that it's easier to chew up soft opposition (even with dregs as teammates) than it is to score at the same rate against the toughs.

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  58. yeah, not sure I'm buying your argument. On one hand you say BOS has more depth and better players but on the other hand Seguin has no one to work with. Interesting to note also that since Savard came back Seguin appears to have been on a line with him and Ryder.

    Agreed though that there is no way to reasonably answer this question for a some time.

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  59. Oddly, you can maybe already add Hall and Eberle to that list.

    I don't think you can quite yet, but it's extremely awesome that they are in the conversation 30 games into their careers.

    Without 10 they've been up and down.

    Here are the 5v5 scoring chances for the games (including Anaheim, when 10 when down early) that 4 and 14 have played without 10. (courtesy of Dennis' stuff at mchockey79.com)

    Not sure who they faced in each game, but by eye their minutes are not easy.

    Anaheim
    4- 9-9
    14 7-3

    Tampa
    4- 9-11
    14- 2-11

    Van
    4- 4-7
    14 3-7

    Leaves
    4- 11-7
    14 11-5

    Total
    4- 33-34
    14- 23-26


    Close.

    Probably close enough to count, but there aren't that many Leaves like teams in the West and that game made up for both Van and Tbay.

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  60. JW: I think we should all have a seat and let them play for 2-3 years.

    That would be fair but also who gives a shit? The Oilers picked Hall and he looks like a franchise player. Seguin may be that too but it doesn't matter.

    To me Hall is excelling in a harder situation. With Horcoff and Hemsky out you basically key in on Hall and Eberle and know you're going to push the Oilers bottom sixes shit in regardless of who you play against them.

    Hall developmentally was likely the most ready player for the NHL in his draft. Had the Oilers taken Seguin I feel fairly confident that he would have had a rougher go finding success then Hall has had to this point.

    In the meantime I'm teasing my b's fan buddies about Seguin not dressing because he has a cocaine flu and is taking acting classes with Alex Daigle. (All in good fun)

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  61. Since the introduction of the Lottery, the highest drafting team has finished in the bottom 5 in their following season 73.3% of the time. My stats are here (not trolling for hits, just showing my work).

    The race for the bottom is less "if" and more "when" and "where," if past results can be trusted. I mean, the current Oilers are not exactly the 97-98 Bruins and they're the only team to ever finish out of the lottery after picking 1st Overall. If the Oilers break the trend, it's all gravy for the Rebuild. We would look better than many predicted & MBS boasts proven marksmanship at any point in the draft.

    Personally, I think the Org will end up taking home one of the Swedes with 2nd/3rd Overall & I think either would be just dandy going forward. Still, Couturier appears to be the real deal and I have to agree with FPV's comments. Can't pass him up. Regardless, the Hall-Seguin debate will only be more muddled by whatever name is called next June.

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  62. Ed,

    It's pretty simple. I'm too lazy to look up shift charts and other stats like I used to.

    The Bruins have:

    Lucic, Horton, Krejci, Ryder, and Bergeron etc.

    Without Horcoff and Hemsky, it's already all over the news that teams focus on shutting down Hall.

    Last season, Penner started pretty hot and cooled down do various factors including the fact that he started facing top pairing defencemen.

    Hall started off slowly then played well with Horcoff and Eberle against other team's top lines.

    Now Horcoff might be our best center and a good 2 way player, but he's no offensive dynamo and Eberle's another rookie.

    Regardless of what the QC and QT numbers suggest, playing with Horcoff and whatever pairings from the Oilers garbage back end Hall played most with is not exactly sloping the ice downhill towards the opposition's net.

    Now, he's doing that with Gagner slotted in the middle. Trying to outscore top opposition with Ganger and Eberle (no disrespect to Eberle) is like pissing in the wind especially with our d core.

    Note, Eberle's one of my favorite Oilers, but he's still a rookie, of course.

    Basically, this would be comparable to saying that Paajarvi's played better than Hall because he doesn't have a negative goal differential / 60. By my eye, Paajarvi's playing with dregs against dregs.

    He also has a better GF ON/ 60 than Hall.

    Okay, what the heck, let's do it.

    Who here things Paajarvi's played better than Hall this season?

    Hall:

    GFon / 60= 2.24
    GAON / 60= 2.94

    PRV

    GFON/60= 2.46
    GAON/60 2.46

    QC= .02 (8th)
    QT= -.074 (18th)

    Now, looking at the numbers, we could argue that PRV is playing with completely useless linemates against relatively tougher opposition and he's breaking even in goal differential per 60. He also has a higher GFON/60 than Hall. Turns out one could argue that PRV is a more effective player than Hall...

    Now, I love Eberle, PRV, and Hall, but I won't buy the above argument. Context is important.

    As per all, yeah it's way too early to make a decision regarding Hall / Seguin.

    In my humble opinion though, I think performance against tough comp speaks more than outscoring dregs even if you're playing with dregs.

    ReplyDelete
  63. That would be fair but also who gives a shit? The Oilers picked Hall and he looks like a franchise player. Seguin may be that too but it doesn't matter.

    Yeah - if Hall continues on this road (and stays generally healthy) ten years from now nobody's* going to be saying that we should have picked Seguin, regardless of how good Seguin is.

    And FPB: Of course we should take a seat an accumulate more data before we reach a final conclusion. On the other hand, arguing over this stuff prematurely is basically what we do around here. (I mean, what's Lowetide doing ranking his top twenty prospects like this now? It will be more clear how they should be ranked in a decade or so.)

    * Not literally nobody.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Dobberhockey says Seguins ES icetime is broken down with the following players:

    19%-Recchi-Ryder
    13%-Ryder-Wheeler
    13%-Ryder-Savard
    13%-Paille-Ryder
    10%-Paille-Thornton
    5.6%-Bergeron-Recchi
    4.6%-Marchand-Ryder
    2.5%-Marchand-Thornton
    1.6%-Caron-Ryder
    1.1%-Horton-Lucic

    So Seguin hasn't played much at all with the top scorers such as Horton, Lucic, and Krejci, but he also hasn't been stapled to Shawn Thornton either.

    There are many different factors to consider, but I'd take Hall this season because to simplify it, he's having a bigger impact then Seguin. I believe that if Seguin were at the same point as Hall right now regarding ability, he'd be getting more ice time as well.

    It's funny that with the mention of a Gillies type in the blog that Moreau's name came up as well. He was the closest thing to a Gillies that the Oilers had in the last few seasons. The Oilers sure could use a guy like him or Torres right now.

    I guess that promoted the overpay offer to Neil this offseason. It really doesn't look like the Oilers have anyone in the system remotely close to being able to fill that role at the NHL level(Cam Abney/haha).

    I'd expect to see more chasing of Neil/Boogaard types in the future until they can find one that'll accept an overpay to come here. Hopefully they trade for a guy instead.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Send Hall back to Junior - we might save enough cap space to find that veteran PKer.

    ReplyDelete
  66. In my humble opinion though, I think performance against tough comp speaks more than outscoring dregs even if you're playing with dregs.

    I'm not sure how much you can read into stats like that with extremely young players. A few years ago, some folks here were using that philosophy to put Pouliot in a positive light when compared to Parise, Getzlaf, and Perry.

    I think outscoring any comp in the NHL as a rookie is a very good indicator.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Here’s an interesting fact: Grant Fuhr has a better career ppg average than Jason Strudwick. Fuhr had 36 points in 423 games, and Strudwick has 53 points in 643 games.

    Well, sure, but Fuhr got more icetime.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Send Hall back to Junior - we might save enough cap space to find that veteran PKer.

    ...and Traktor swoops in to make a relevant point.

    (Kris's first post in this thread made a point that you may wish to review.)

    ReplyDelete
  69. ...And he played with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, and Coffey.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Sean Couturier is the whole package. You don't pass on that.

    I think everyone has him first.

    At this point no one is passing on him.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Lol Traktor. You're slowly descending into DSF territory. (Where even your relevant points will be ignored.)

    ReplyDelete
  72. Unlike last year I kind of hope the Oilers get 2nd overall instead of first. (Let some other team make the choice between Larsson and Couturier and let their fans debate it forever)

    ReplyDelete
  73. Smarmy: If I wanted attention I would create a twitter account and talk about RelCorsi.

    It's all good.

    ReplyDelete
  74. and Traktor swoops in to make a relevant point.

    What do you mean?

    He didn't say anything about Whorecough or his cap hit?

    ReplyDelete
  75. ...And he played with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, and Coffey.

    Fuhr also had a better first pass out of the zone than 43.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Unlike last year I kind of hope the Oilers get 2nd overall instead of first. (Let some other team make the choice between Larsson and Couturier and let their fans debate it forever)

    I got a strange vibe that they will finish 29th and win the lottery.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Probably but then again the Islanders will probably make the wrong choice for us anyways.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Woodguy said...

    Fuhr also had a better first pass out of the zone than 43.

    I know you're joking, but the reality was just as funny. Fuhr would stop the puck behind the net for Coffey who would either wind up, rush and score, or pass to a breaking Gretzky.

    Fuhr, not Gilbert, was the absolute king of unwarranted second assists.

    ReplyDelete
  79. A little late in the Hall vs Seguin debate. Lots of scouts said that Hall was ready for the pro game but Seguin may need another year in the juniors. There was absolutely no need for the Bruins to play Seguin this season. Furthermore, Hall has had an extra year of development in the O. I think Seguin will either have a strong end to the season, or it is next season where he will show his talents for which he was selected 2nd overall. Even though Hall looks ahead at this moment, this is far from over.
    I tend to agree with Dennis where he said the Hall has a bit of OV in him. I noticed that too. His never quit attitude in the offensive zone is pretty remarkable. Couple that with Eberle'e work along the boards, we are a witness to the development of 2/3rd of a top line in the Nhl for years to come

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  80. Smarmy: LoL. Then we're gonna argue if we should trade up to the N1 spot.

    Honestly I think the Isles would pick Larsson considering theyr C's (Tavares, Schremp, Bailey) and theyr ass defence.

    And then we get the big man at 2nd.

    Wouldn't that be sweet.

    ReplyDelete
  81. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQuOu4OwswI&feature=player_embedded

    Boy Bruce Boudreau sure swears a lot. Wonder if his seat is as hot some people want others to believe.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Spoiler:
    The funny thing is that Woodguy may not be joking. Brodeur already is a better puck handler and a passer than 43. I have never seen Fuhr play in net, but if he was remotely close to even Turco in terms of puck-handling, I am inclined to believe Woodguy

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  83. @ Swarmy
    I dont think it is much of a debate between Couturier and Larsson. SC has been really good and has actually improved upon last year. Larsson on the hand has slowed down. His defensive play may be better, but until he singlehandedly gets Sweden to the gold medal game, I dont think there is much to argue against Couturier. As things stand today Oilers shouldnt/ cant pass up on him. However if he is out, then I dont see how Oilers pass up on Larsson

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  84. I don't get why RNH is #2 on the ISS ranking. He should be lower (based on my uneducated eye)

    He has gone 32GM 8G 35A 43PT +7 22PIM.

    In terms of forwards:
    #4 Landeskog 29GM 23G 19A 42PT +21 43PIM (200 lbs)

    #5 Saad 31GM 20G 16A 36PT +13 20PIM (208lbs)

    #9 Strome 31GM 18G 29A 47PT +13 34PIM

    There is a big Finn RW at #7 on their list. (Armia)

    Just looking at the ranked forwards and their stats (and not even including guys like St Croix) RHN isn't really that much better.

    With Landeskog you get a bigger guy who has 3 x more goals, a 3x better +/- and 2x more PIM.

    Strome is #9 and has better stats than RNH.

    ReplyDelete
  85. ISS is always behind the curve.
    Furthermore, most of RNH's points have come on the man-advantage. His EV point production is much lower than the others you have mentioned

    ReplyDelete
  86. I'd bet most of Fuhr's assists can be chalked up to Paul Coffey. A 2ft handoff and then Coffey going end to end for a goal.

    We just need to get Struds a partner like Coffey.

    ReplyDelete
  87. @sumoil

    I agree that the debate might be separating but I don't believe smart teams make decisions on players strictly on their performance in their draft year.

    Larsson's body of work has been impressive for a couple of seasons.

    Couturier's growth looks good and I'd be happy taking him.

    The world juniors will shed some light on it.

    I just kind of like the idea of letting the Islanders make the call on either player and would be happy with whoever they pass on.

    ReplyDelete
  88. I just kind of like the idea of letting the Islanders make the call on either player and would be happy with whoever they pass on.

    I don't understand that. Wouldn't you want to be able to pick anyone you want - especially when the #1 C you need is at #1?

    Snow has followed the dance card pretty close the last few years hasn't he? I don't think he is going to take a flyer.

    ReplyDelete
  89. SO: Yes, it looks like we're watching two kids in the very near future have a great chance of playing PVP and sawing-off at the very worst.

    For people who don't understand what they are watching, this means nothing. But for other people this is huge.

    I've said it here many times: the GMs have an easy job ahead of them: finding bottom sixers with four of them being able to kill penalties and at lesat one of them being able to win faceoffs.

    Jesus, that can't be that hard, can it?

    I can't see a Handzus not getting a three year offer but I would seriously overpay that guy on a two year contract.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Larsson vs. Couturier

    People, let's be serious here. The Oilers could use either propsect - a possible stud 1C or a possible stud 1D?

    If they're second overall and they get the "sloppy seconds", I'll be happy. If they actually win the lottery (because no way in hell is anyone going to out-suck the Isles this year) and get the choice of the two, well...hot damn, in MBS we trust!

    Personally, I'd go Couturier and try to deal for help on the blueline - for every Drew Doughty who matures super-fast into a legit #1D, how many hundreds of D-men are there out there that need 3-4 years (if not more) to reach that level of potential?

    Get a guy who's already close to being ready for that gig and build towards a "contention window" in spring 2013 and 2014. Yes, this would require Tambellini getting off his ass and adding some better role players and veteran depth, but it's not completely infeasible.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Ducey: Well drafting Niederreiter was a bit out of the wild. WJC effect.

    ReplyDelete
  92. @ Ducey

    It's less pressure to pick second and you might end up getting the guy you wanted along but couldn't pick first.

    ie Duchene vs Tavares
    or Hall vs Seguin

    Oilers need a top defenseman as well as a #1 center. Personally, I'd go with the center so we're likely just talking about nothing.

    ReplyDelete
  93. @ FPB
    Even Johansson at 4 was a stretch as was Burmistrov at 8 and McIlrath at 10. So far, all the picks except #10 look justified.
    Furthermore, I dont believe Snow will take a flyer at anyone, but rather go with the safest bet. He did that wil Tavares and will do that again. IMO couturier.
    Now the question is how long is Jersey going to suck? If they get 2nd overall pick, I think Larsson is as good as gone.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Niederreiter was a top 10 pick from pretty much every quarter. I always use Redline to go back and look at things, here's their top 30 Mock:

    http://www.redlinereport.com/mocdraftguide1.pdf

    ReplyDelete
  95. Send Hall back to Junior - we might save enough cap space to find that veteran PKer.

    I dislike snide posts like this that suggest an argument without taking the time to actually make the argument.

    The argument about sending Hall back to junior -or even the AHL with some fancy lawyering- had to do with future cap space and trying to fit his ELC/RFA years into a window of success for the Oilers instead of burning one of those years this year, where Hall's success will do nothing but make it less likely that we finish in the lottery.

    At least address the argument. Anything else is "douche-wagonry" I just made that word up, but it fits.

    ReplyDelete
  96. @ Swarmy Boss
    I think it is the fans who are generally more undecided with who they want. The scouting staff is more clear about their preference just like MBS was with Hall and Isles were with JT. But the fans love the suspense and the speculation. I think it is much better of the scouting staff to go ahead and make its choice than to accept the 'consolation prize' in their eyes

    ReplyDelete
  97. @LT
    NN got top 10 consideration mainly due to his WJC performance. His stats in the W werent really top 5 worthy. I think Nino is the poster boy for the 'scouting and projecting is more than stats' guys.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Yeah and those same fans can make things miserable for organizations.

    If all things equal Seguin was here and performing the same as he was in Boston people would be going apeshit while Hall ripped it up on their sportcenter highlights.

    Sometimes it's alright to get the "sloppy seconds" that you may have wanted all along and not have every goofball on your back about it.

    ReplyDelete
  99. LT: And? He isn't progressing too much and by stats he isn't on his teams first line (Got shifted by two 17 years old, one who might shift him as the best Swiss prospect ever)

    ReplyDelete
  100. Smarmy: Hall wouldn't get the minutes he has here in B.

    ReplyDelete
  101. @ Kris

    I dont konw traktor, but I am assuming that he is being sarcastic. We already have loads of cap space to sign a veteran PKer and dont need to 'save cap space' by sending Hall to juniors. Also, I dont think anyone at this point will be legitimately making a point of keeping hall away from the Oilers esp when he is probably the second best F on the team right now behind Penner

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  102. FPB: Why are you always so fucking pissy? You said the pick was out of the wild, which I take to mean that it was a reach selection. I post proof that was not the case and you reply "AND?"

    You know what? Be respectful or fuck off. That's the "AND" part for you.

    ReplyDelete
  103. @ FPB

    i think Hall would have gotten second line minutes in Boston and probably would have had slightly superior stats there.

    Furthermore, I dont think that NN is on the second line. In fact both Rattie's and Bartschi's stats have gone down since NN was sent back. I think NN along with Ryan Johansson is their first line and is eating away the minutes Rattie and the swiss would have gotten

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  104. LT: I'm only questionning the value of RLR. Not what you said.

    Jeez. That was pissy too.

    These guys posted Jaden Schwartz at 29 while he's probably the best tracking guy not in the NHL now. And they post Austin Watson at 13.

    The thing i'm trying to say is, it's not because scouts put a guy up that he isn't a reach from another factor.

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  105. FPB: May I see your pre-draft list? Otherwise it looks for all the world like 20/20 hindsight on your part. UNLESS you're saying that numbers say all, which is of course ridiculous because players have different skill sets and physical attritbutes.

    So, where's your list?

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  106. I am assuming that he is being sarcastic.

    He is trying to ridicule the well thought out position that Hall should not be played for cap reasons.

    Also, I dont think anyone at this point will be legitimately making a point of keeping hall away from the Oilers.

    If he leaves Edmonton when a year before he hits UFA status at like, what, 25?, because he's demanding 1 gazillion dollars a year, we'll be sad that we blew this year of his contract for nothing.

    You might think that the pros of keeping Hall -e.g. his development, the possibility of pissing him off by leaving him down- outweigh the cap-related, long-term cons of playing him this year, but it's a serious debate that can't be ridiculed away.

    Ridicule and stupid irrelevant one-liners like Traktor's need to be called out as total BS by all of us and not defended by people trying to sound objective and fair.

    ReplyDelete
  107. fpb - its called context, pal

    I have been here since the beginning and the number of times LT has gotten pissy I oculd count on two hands, maybe

    In other words, you might want to consider how you're framing things when you get him to that point

    Reasonable? You have a lot to contribute I think. Sometimes its just the tone that needs work.

    Apologies for sounding like Dad. I think you get the drift though, eh?

    ReplyDelete
  108. May I see your pre-draft list?

    1. Seguin
    2. Hall
    3. Schremp
    4. Whoever is awesomest next year
    5. Whoever is second awesomest next year

    ReplyDelete
  109. Black Dog: Idk. Might be a difference between languages. Because if I translate, well that doesn't sound too insulting. Might be internet thingy also.

    LT: The only things I saw checking the old threads were me pissing on Mcylrtath and cheering for Granlund/Tarasenko.

    Away from that. Yes i cheer for numbers. No I don't believe you should automatically put up a player because he has high numbers, but I have difficulty taking a guy with PPG when there's a kid with 50 goals still available.

    ReplyDelete
  110. If our pick ends up in the 3-5 range, I would see if Tallon might consider moving Gudbranson for it.

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  111. @ Kris

    Well I too was on the push his ELC one more year band wagon for all the reasons you have said. I dont remember who maybe it was Bruce, who said that why are assuming that Hall will leave at 25? If we look at the trends, of the past 1st overall picks in this decade, only Kovalchuk has willingly jumped ship that too 9 years after being drafted.
    Furthermore, I have also been swayed by the people who say that if the player is ready to play, he should play.

    My appologies, I do not know Traktor and I guess i will leave the defending to him

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  112. Hehe..Well, what is happening with Nino (Not that is has anything to do with anything)?

    I don't know how the WHL works but he's got less points than Brandon Davidson and Martin Maracin...and they are, you know, defencemen. That can't be good.

    I would have loved for the Oilers to have moved up and grabbed him at the draft. He even looked like a player when he was skating with the Isles for a few games there. It's kind of dissapointing to see him sputtering now.

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  113. why are assuming that Hall will leave at 25?

    We're not. We're assuming that UFA years are more expensive than RFA years.

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  114. Sorry Sum,

    Speaking of pissy, I sounded pissy at you. I didn't intend that.

    You're around here a lot, no? Do you seriously not know about Traktor and/or DSF?

    ReplyDelete
  115. You can't take junior players simply on stats. Which are basically the boxcars at the junior level because they either don't keep or don't publish the kind of numbers that would help you assess.

    Scouting is so important and quite interesting to me. When I'm at junior games and see a scout I sometimes ask them questions and they're usually open to talking.

    I asked one about El'Nino because he just doesn't seem like a highend player that you'd take in the lottery. He said that most scouts feel he's a safer pick because even if he isn't a scorer at the NHL level he is big enough and good enough defensively that he would be a good bottom sixer and that has value.

    Another scout told me that he thought part of the reason Fowler fell is that he was smaller and teams were worried that he just didn't have the frame or game to compete at the NHL level. Fowler is looking pretty good for Anahiem at the moment but teams with the higher pick wanted safer bets.

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  116. There we go. I got something

    ''The ISS list is weird

    6. NINO NIEDERREITER 36 goals 60 PTS
    9. JEFFERY SKINNER 50 goals 90 PTS
    12. AUSTIN WATSON 20 goals 54 15. MIKAEL GRANLUND 13 goals 40 PTS (SM-Liiga)
    23. JADEN SCHWARTZ 33 goals 83 points (USHL)

    I mean i know there's size issues but ffs, that's ridiculous. 83 Points is 25 points over a guy like Kyle Okposo. (And Shwartz was alone on his team, draft that kid)

    Same goes for Weal.''

    I directly ditch Niederreiter, Watson for Skinner, Granlund and Schwartz.

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  117. Subban just made a tremendous hit on Marchand. If he can do that for the next decade they're going to love him in Montreal despite the mistakes. Lordy that was a 1970's hit.

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  118. LT: He does pump up like that at times. Makes me think of Kasparitis. (Hip-check)

    ReplyDelete
  119. We're not. We're assuming that UFA years are more expensive than RFA years.

    ...and, for that matter, that first RFA contracts are more expensive than ELCs.

    ReplyDelete
  120. I think Nino Niederreiter probably had a bit of a letdown after being sent down by the Islanders when his 9 games were done.

    However, his WHL numbers (23gp, 13-13-26) are a slight improvement over last season. And of course 6.02, 203 on your draft day is a nice set of numbers too.

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  121. Thanks, Smarmy. I kind of figured the stats must be a bit out to lunch in that league in some cases. It's just appalling at face value is all.

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  122. LT- he's pissy because he's like 13 years old or something like that. He just doesn't know the difference yet between whit and pissy.

    ReplyDelete
  123. FPB
    You are forgetting about the size factor. I realize that offense accounts for a lot, but size does account for something. It is easier for a bigger guy to survive in the Nhl. Hence teams will always have attraction towards the size factor.

    @Kris

    Though I read LT's blog ritualistically, so far i rarely mix it up in the comments section. Something I intend to change

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  124. Bookie: That'd be good if you didn't mispell wit while calling me out.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Landeskog is progressing nice too, although im no prospect guy..

    http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/roster/show/id/1268

    thanks for pointing him out SumOil.. im less worried about not having the #1 pick wrapped up..

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  126. Sumoil: I absolutely realise that. I have no problem taking the big man over when the production disparity is 10 points. Something you could account on luck, or just that it won't matter say to another level (Let's say you could take Scott Hartnell over another guy with more points in the NHL now).

    But I have problems with that when it's something like a 2/3 ratio. Seems like a guy is just at another level while theyr playing in the same league.

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  127. SumOil: Welcome!! I love your prospect stuff and look forward to your insight.

    ReplyDelete
  128. @ Steve Smith

    That is a very fair arguement to which I dont have an answer yet. But I will think about it and get back to you

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  129. 6. NINO NIEDERREITER 36 goals 60 PTS
    9. JEFFERY SKINNER 50 goals 90 PTS
    12. AUSTIN WATSON 20 goals 54 15. MIKAEL GRANLUND 13 goals 40 PTS (SM-Liiga)
    23. JADEN SCHWARTZ 33 goals 83 points (USHL)

    I'll take a stab at this.

    I've already said Niederreiter has enough size and defensive ability to still have value to an NHL team if he can't score.

    Skinner is a kid who can flat out score. If he can't do it at the NHL level then he's not in the NHL.

    Watson and Granlund I don't know piles about but I've heard they've got those intangibles people like to talk about and both can play in all ends of the rink.

    Some guys go higher because of the risk factor.

    It seems baffling that Dylan Mcylrath or however you spell it is big, mean, skates well, and is great in the corners. I can see the Rangers feeling they have a better bet of a solid dman in him then the riskier but higher ceiling Fowler or Gormley.

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  130. @ FPB

    One of the things Jaden Schwartz had going against him was that he was playing in the USHL. While it was become very clear that it is now favored over QMJHL, but scouts still give Ohl and Whl much more importance as a developmental league. Had Schwartz been playing in either of the two leagues, he would have been ranked higher.
    Furthermore, most of the established Draft ranking publications seem to be more conservative. Team scouts arent. They have specific players in mind and pursue them.

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  131. SumOil: Well, for Schwartz this is how I looked at it. I think a lot of scouts went cold on the USHL lately.

    I took some guys that were drafted previously in the USHL. Let's take one of them for exemple: Louis Leblanc.

    The kid went just under PPG (59 in 60) with Omaha on draft year. He's 6''00 and was on a pretty good team. He had some guys with him (Kristo and Mullane). Guy was drafted around projection at 18th.

    Then you take Schwartz, who popped 83 points in 60, for a mild Tri-City team, with no one near him in points (Closest guy had 45!), he almost lapped them. I mean, his numbers were just off the chart.

    I mean it wasn't just some guy that had better numbers, it was out of here. There's not a lot of guys who scored that much in theyr draft year in the USHL. And now he's doing the same thing in Colorado College as a freshman.

    I don't really love the USHL either, or the Q. But there's a point where it becomes just obvious that a guy's a step above the others before him, and guys in his draft class. And that's a problem I have with the scouting services rankings.

    Btw: Sorry LT if i sounded insulting. I didn't mean to. Please don't take it personal. I'l take more time to pick words next time.

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  132. FPB

    I am with you on Schwartz. I am not saying that Schwartz was rightly ranked towards the end of the first round, but all I am saying is the reasons why he was ranked so. Most of the scouts are pussies when it comes to undersized players and sometimes it does come back to bite them. Can you believe that central scouting had Skinner ranked 34 North American skater which is like calling him out of top 40?
    Thats what I was saying that most teams employ scouts who are smarter than the ones making the draft list. Hence Schwartz was taken early on. Apparently Ottawa wanted him too and once he was gone, Ottawa's 1st rounder was available for trade.

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  133. Also I think the USHL is gaining a lot of respect and importance from scouts and players like Schwartz are the reason for it.

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  134. My problem with the Habs fan is he likes proposing terrible Edm/CTL trades.

    And, oh yeah, he likes Cuntreal.

    As for Subban, his counting stats are good for his age but he's playing third pairing min on a good defensive team.

    I hope he turns out like a Phaneuf who was never really well-rounded and took awhile to play against actual tough opp and eventually didn't get any better once he had to.

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  135. Just to clarify, well when I said scouts are pussies, I was talking about guys over at ISS and Central scouting. They are a little shy to rank undersized players high enough.

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  136. Dennis:

    Just so I am clear, you don't think it would be a good trade to deal all future picks for Max Pacioretty then?

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  137. Pboy: Hmmm. I talked about Hemsky for Pacioretty and a first.

    That doesn't seem such a strech. A 1st round kid at 21. 1st in goals in the AHL before call-up, and now with 2 points in 2 NHL games (So far)

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  138. Everyone thinks Lowe is pretty stupid but sending Rob Schremp back to juniors extended his "cheap years".

    Guy knows how to build a winner.

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  139. Everyone thinks Lowe is pretty stupid but sending Rob Schremp back to juniors extended his "cheap years".

    And you don't see him breaking the bank, now do you?

    I once asked you to segregate your comments between two accounts so that I could ignore anything you wrote about Horcoff and read the rest. I no longer feel that that segregation would be useful to me.

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  140. Steve: Well he's got 10 points in 15 games. Sure that's no world-beater but probably better than where the org sloted him.

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  141. "And you don't see him breaking the bank, now do you?"

    That's because he didn't learn a lick about D.

    But I guess that's what happens when you don't control your own prospects.

    Scrub

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  142. Steve: Well he's got 10 points in 15 games. Sure that's no world-beater but probably better than where the org sloted him.

    "Breaking the bank" means "costing a lot of money". I was saying that Rob Schremp wasn't costing the Islanders a lot of money, not that he wasn't playing well (I hadn't actually looked at his stats all season).

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  143. Traktor:

    Strong, strong point. Rob Schremp and Taylor Hall were in almost completely analagous situations and it's good of you to remind us all that.

    Thank you.

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  144. SS: Oh. My bad. Well I guess his salary will be upped after the season. That or Wang won't spend and he'l go somewhere else.

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  145. Meanwhile, I think we can all agree that it's a good thing Gilbert Brule was brought up to the NHL immediately so he could learn defence - otherwise he may have ended up like poor Bobby Ryan, who the Ducks left to rot in junior for two full seasons after they took him second overall.

    Bullet dodged.

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  146. Does someone want to tell me a good reason for WHY we're still discussing Rob Fucking Schremp?

    Pardon the language, but come on...losing him on waivers wasn't exactly trading Miro Satan for Barrie Moore and Craig Millar (crappy trade by Slats, but 100% on Ron Low, for the record).

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  147. And naturally the point I'm making in a sarcastic manner is that there's not really much firm evidence one way or the other which development route is really ideal, and that anecdotal evidence can be found to support either side.

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  148. Does someone want to tell me a good reason for WHY we're still discussing Rob Fucking Schremp?

    Hahaha...

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  149. Does someone want to tell me a good reason for WHY we're still discussing Rob Fucking Schremp?

    No. But thank you for asking.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Bobby Ryan is already making Horcoff money. What happened to all those cheap years?

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  151. Traktor,

    Didn't you'd know that Kevin Lowe destroyed the cheap second contract when he made his RFA offer to Dustin Penner, throwing the entire cap world off balance?

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  152. Bobby Ryan is already making Horcoff money. What happened to all those cheap years?

    You don't think this contract (that is, a contract running until the end of 2014-2015) would have been richer if his RFA years were slated to end two years earlier? Are you a moron, or do you just think that NHL GMs and player agents are?

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  153. Crazy.

    I must have imagined Rick Nash getting 5+ as an RFA years before the Penner contract.

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  154. It's also possibly relevant that the Ducks paid less than $1.0 million per season for a 30-goal year from Ryan on two occasions.

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  155. steve scrub:

    Who knows. Maybe his numbers will be a one time thing like Horcoff.

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  156. Sorry Traktor, that was actually a sarcastic shot at Brian Burke, rather than a sarcastic shot at you. I still find Burke's anger at the Penner RFA sheet rather amusing.

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  157. "Also possibly relevant that the Ducks paid less than $1.0 million per season for a 30-goal year from Ryan on two occasions."

    Well that's certainly better value than paying Horcoff 7.5 million for 15 goals.

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  158. Bob Cole is verifiably old man crazy. Messing up replays, not seeing obvious deflections, saves, players.

    Good thing he's peddling crazy out East these days.

    Go Struds!!!!!!!!

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  159. If I don't see a Moreau O-zone penalty tonight I'll be dissappointed.

    MMMmmm...Spiced Rum and Eggnog...

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  160. Oh my GOD you can HEAR the hate for Moreau!!!!!!

    Oh wait, nevermind. It turns out nobody gave a shit.

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  161. Traktor:

    Which year did Shawn Horcoff get paid $7.5 million?

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  162. Additionally - and this is just me being curious - is that the biggest leap you've been forced to make to get a Horcoff dig into a conversation? Have you made bigger leaps?

    Because that was impressive. Almost Olympics impressive. You've got a real talent there.

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  163. Watching Strudwick against Nash was like watching the Spanish Armada interrupting an old man fishing.

    Brutal start

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  164. Why the hell is Struds on Nash's side of the ice on the 2nd shift of the game?

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  165. What a classless play, making Steve Mason look like a jabberwocky.

    Players remember that kinda stuff, we should have a talk with him.

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  166. I think Fraser made 4 errors in 5 seconds there. Hard to do.

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  167. They shouldn't even run out a fourth line. Absolutely worthless

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  168. Shouldn't our defensive 4th line centre actually be good at, you know, defense?

    Fraser was totally clueless on that play. Coglianolian.

    Is putting together a decent bottom 6 that difficult? Honestly? ... ?

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  169. Seriously, Whitney is going to end up with boxcars of 0-65-65.

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  170. Goddamn Shaw is screwing me out of a winnable game! Bastids.

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  171. Anyone got a feed for the game? I am stuck watching Calgary and TO instead of my favorite bad NHL team.

    Back to why Traktor fictitiously hates Horcoff but secretly loves him and covers it over with illogical and poorly reasoned arguments. *Smoke gets in your eyes*

    Kotalik scores in Calgary.

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  172. Huggy Bear is back!!

    I missed you man.

    (Cuddles up)

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  173. Of course Renney runs them right back out. Stortini gets pounded again

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  174. Just honoured formercaptainethanmoreau during th TV time out.

    I honoured him by elbowing the guy next to me, took a hooking penalty 200ft from my net and called out the kids on the powerplay.

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  175. Thanks Smarmy. I don't have HD unfortunately, but I should be getting it SD on my sportsnet one. I guess they forgot to add that channel when I signed up a few months ago. Apparently it will be up in 5 minutes so I guess I'll just fix myself a few drinks in the meanwhile.

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  176. At the start of this year Stortini was starting to actually fight like a normal hockey player, but now he's back to awkward hugging.

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  177. Struds versus Nash again?? Who's running the Fin D?

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  178. Strudwick is embarrassing. Handling the puck for him is like punting around a dead squirrel.

    Activated D? We're still on that phrase??

    EBERLE!!

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  179. Wow, Mason is a shodow of his rookie season.
    2 weak ones tonight. Garon has outplayed him to this point.

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  180. lol @ Woodguys comment. Great way to honour his legacy

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  181. Not sure if its still an issue but for anyone who can't find the game its in SD on 327 on Shaw

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  182. It's nice that Strudwick wants to honour Ethan Moreau's return with a useless penalty in the offensive zone...

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  183. Cmon take somebody???!

    I've never seen a special team look so consistently wrong about something than the current PK setup. Both Dmen aren't covering anybody. No lanes are being taken away. Swishing away at loose pucks rather than bearing down. Rotating improperly. And Khabi seemingly has no ability to anticipate cross ice passes. Fix some of this shit!

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  184. Michael:

    the word useless can describe about 6 or 7 members of the Oilers.

    I don't care how great he is in the locker room, Strudwick simply cannot play hockey anymore.

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  185. Brule with a slapshot on the rush.

    WHAT A SHOCKER!

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  186. It always Looks like a 5-3.

    Although that was a beauty pass

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  187. http://atdhe.net/30805/watch-columbus-blue-jackets-vs-edmonton-oilers

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  188. What a pass by Omark.

    Found a feed on atdhe.net

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  189. Paajarvi takes some licks to make the play.

    This could end up a 7-6 game.

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  190. Omark = LightWeight...

    As in Doug Weight.

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  191. 24 shots allowed in the first period.

    Terrible.

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