Every once in awhile I'll read an item about the Detroit Red Wings and their exceptional job at the draft table. The Wings do in fact have a nice track record at the entry draft (Hudler, Fleischmann, Filpulla, Quincey, Howard, Franzen, others since 2002) but the key difference between Detroit and Edmonton is the number of actual NHL players playing for the winged wheel.
In tonight's game the Oilers will be playing a number of kids who aren't ready for prime time. Detroit? Experience, a wide range of skills and players with defined roles. The coaching staff will look for matchups and look for an edge.
They're good, well coached and have a goal. The Oilers are porridge. This won't be pretty.
Everyone in the org keeps talking about the Detroit model, but truth be told they were really lucky. yes they drafted well, but taking guys late in the draft that turn into Zetterberg is luck not skill. Right now we have no one tracking that well, and can't expect that to happen.
ReplyDeleteBrownlee posed the question on ON about dealing for the #2 pick, if it meant hemsky or Penner. Would anyone do that? Do you capitalize on a team's need to compete next year and sell one of your top 2 players for a young kid with upside? Puts us in full rebuild mode, and makes us at least 3 years from any playoffs but if Seguin and Hall had a Toews and Kane impact, then that turn around is only 2 years.
DBO: I'm a risk adverse person, so the first thing I think of is this blog in 2016 when it turns out we traded Hemsky for Pat Falloon.
ReplyDeleteSchitzo: agreed. Hemsky is still gonna better then anyone we draft for the next 2 years, but my fear is 2 more years of crap and he won't re sign anyways.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I think the best comparison for our team may be the Blackhawks. We can run the same way and have a shot at the playoffs in 2 years. Here is why i think we are closer then we think:
- 2006/07 season: 26th in league, luck out and get top pick. take kane.
- 2007-2008: Dressed 9 rookies that year and came 20th (10-th in West, tied with oil, 3 pts out of playoffs). Their rookies were: Bolland, Bourque, Brower, Byfuglien, Eager, Fraser, Kane, Toews and versteeg.
They also had a few guys who had been in the eague a few years who made impacts (Sharp, Seabrook, Ladd, Keith, havlat) and filled out their roster with NHL vets to fill roles (Perrault, lang, lapointe) and vet goalies in Bulin and Lalime.
the similarities to the oil are pretty big to me. We could have a bunch of rookies and young guys playing big roles. A few guys with a few years experience that will be a steadying influence and add a few solid vets and we may actually compete next year.
I'd trade Penner for the 2nd pick. I don't see him sticking around forever.
ReplyDeleteI think it'd take more to get Hemsky from me. Maybe the Leafs two first rounders? Throw in a midget and it's done deal.
DBO - well there's some luck but the Wings have unearthed enough quality players in the lower rounds that you have to say that their scouting is very very good. Obviously they didn't think enough of Zetterberg or any of the pretty long list of guys that they picked in the later round to pick them up in the earlier rounds but I would bet that in the last 20 years they have probably harvested more NHL players from the lower end of the draft than nearly every other team.
ReplyDeleteDon't know that for sure mind you, just thinking its probably true.
Its weird how much I read now as the Wings are kind of in tough to make the playoffs this year that the Wings org doesn't really deserve that much credit for past success. That's not a shot at you DBO just to be clear but its a common theme I have seen from others.
They have been a Stanley Cup contender for pretty well twenty years. Every year. I don't think any other team in sports in North America at least has had that kind of success. Every year since 92 or something. Crazy. And yes they had the financial wherewithal but so did a lot of teams.
Terrific management.
As for Brownlee's suggestion I guess the question is whether either of the guy's who would be the centrepiece - Hemsky or Penner - are going to extend. Its almost a year too early. I don't think either will want to sign another contract with these losers but if they were willing then I think you keep them. If you don't think they will then you may as well mive them along.
Black Dog: i wasn't taking a shot at the Wings, in fact i should have expanded that I agree whole heartedly thatthey have the best scouting going. however, The Oilers taking their approach to me doesn't work since we haven't had that luck/skill in later rounds, and the big reason is that we don't have the same time luxury they did. The Wings were contenders for years when Zetterberg and Datzyuk were gaining experience oevrseas. there was no rush to bring them over since they had a vet team in the playoffs already. The Oilers are more like Chicago (see my last post why). I think we can turn this around quickly, and with a few solid moves (like a solid two way vet or two to take some pressure off the kids, and a vet goalie to run with if and when Bulin gets hurt) you can have a solid team next year.
ReplyDeletewell said BD.
ReplyDeleteone thing a friend of mine said about the wings that i think fits well is that they draft with a plan; drafting kids they know can fit into their system and buy into their culture. kids who will work hard and think the game well. all about structure and roles, and is the sort of long-term planning and commitment that is both rare and lends itself to extended success.
Completely off-topic, but I discovered this blog which may interest anyone who wants to look into hockey history. Guy can write and seems to have a section for most teams (though no Oakland Seals).
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Wings thing goes, it comes down to good management more than good drafting. You can make a case they would never have been as good over the past 10 years without Lidstrom in their line-up, but they were still being judicious in who they signed and who they played in the show during that time. We here know that a superstar does not a team make (not even 2) but you need a whole team to make things run well.
BAr Qu: good point on the management. One thing that always struck me as a big thing (and I think LT has beaten this horse repeatedly) is that the bottom 6 of the wings lineup is almost always filled with veterans who know their role, can play both ways, kill penalties and bring something to the team. Our team however is top heavy with "skilled small guys" who get put in roles they do not know, can't do or don't want to do. One way to look at it: if you changed the makeup of our bottom 6 the past two years how would we have done? I know this year is a train wreck, but if you took out 2 or 3 of the kids and replaced them with solid two way vets I thnk we are a much better team (See Phoenix for an example of what happens to a young team that adds vets to fill out their roster)
ReplyDeleteDon't worry guys. Rajala is the next Zetterberg.
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ReplyDeleteBar Qu: Doesn't your response kind of contradict your argument when you say they were good because of Lidstrom? I'm pretty sure the scouts were the guys pushing to take a skinny Swedish kid named Lidstrom in the third round... and I'm going to guess management was saying, "he's pretty small, are you sure we shouldn't take Cameron Abney?"
ReplyDeleteBoth functions need to get some love: Management was smart enough to listen to scouting and not sign horrific, crippling contracts (or escape them), but drafting brought them late round superstars to stave off the unstoppable push towards the middle.
If management can move some bodies (Moreau, O'Sullivan and Nilsson), deal a surplus player with some value for something we need (Cogs) we may be OK. With the Rangers sniffing around Souray would anyone deal Souray, Cogs and a high pick/prospect for Dubinsky and Roszival. Dubinsky soidifies our centre position, allows us to draft Hall and also gets us a solid two way dman in Roszival. Sather likes shiny objects, so Souray and Cogs may be exactly what he wants, especially if they crap out in the playoffs early.
ReplyDeleteBoth functions need to get some love: Management was smart enough to listen to scouting and not sign horrific, crippling contracts (or escape them), but drafting brought them late round superstars to stave off the unstoppable push towards the middle.
ReplyDeleteThat's kind of what I was trying to say. Even in the last couple of years when the talent has gotten thinner (aging or fleeing to KHL) the Wings have remained competitive because they don't spend money where it doesn't matter (goalies, bottom 6) and they only bring in the players that can play (and will play their system).
Why the heck would Boston trade the second overall?
ReplyDeleteThey have a good nucleous of young players, so they have the potential to be good for years. Why give up at least 7 years of Seguin who will probably out perform his ELC for two guys who could leave in two years? Plus, Seguin could be a much better player 3-4 years down the road.
So what if Chara only has two years left on his contract?
He chose to sign with Boston as a free agent. There is every chance that he will sign an extension with them a year from now. They can add guys like Hemsky or Penner through free agency without giving anything up because their city is a desirable destination.
No. There is no reason at all for Chiarelli to flip the 2nd overall pick, especially when he has 3 other first rounders in the next two years to dangle if he really wants to fill team needs in a hurry.
DBO - yeah I think it could be turned around quickly but I haven't the faith in this management team to get it done to be honest. Every summer the issues stare everyone in the face and the club ignores them.
ReplyDeleteI think the drafting has been solid, for example the Roy and Rajala moves may or may not pan out but those were nice bets to make at that point in the draft.
The problem lies with making sure the kids develop properly which the Oilers don't do particularly well, bringing in guys to fill out the roster which they have completely botched these past four years and managing the cap.
That's the thing about the Wings. Their kids develop properly and yes they can afford to do that because they are always good but they stick to that plan. They bring in the guys to fill the roles they need filling. And for the most part they make good bets and when they don't they aren't crippling. Bertuzzi is not signed for four years for example. If they take a chance and it fails then they they are usually out from under it pretty quickly.
I think that is a major reason Tallon got the boot from Chicago. The goaltending sinkhole and the Campbell contract are going to force them to cut some guys loose
and that is unforgiveable.
Detroit's success comes from an awesome developmental system as much as their luck at the drafting table.
ReplyDeleteAs compared to the Oilers sink or swim system. We've sure seen lots of sinkers.
Boston could be convinced to trade their draft pick, just have to sweeten the deal enough.
I still feel that Penner and/or Hemsky will be rquesting trades by summer anyhow as the rest of the team is blown up.
Why would either guy resign here, seriously?
DBO - oh yeah like I said too I know you weren't taking a shot at the Wings, I just went off on a tangent
ReplyDeleteOn the ferry to Shelbyville and all that. ;)
Deedee - yeah my guess is neither signs. The Oilers would have to sweeten the pot though like you said.
BD: I'm not convinced that Tallon was to blame for everything in Chicago. Seeing as the decision to sign Hossa and pass on Havlat wasn't Tallon's decision, it makes you wonder how many signings were really his.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Wings, I'll give them respect for their management team. The players they draft and the way they develop them. What I'll also say is that they were damn lucky that both Zetterberg and Datsyuk panned out, otherwise this is a different discussion.
Sure they get credit for taking shots on guys that other teams passed on, and the way they developed them, but it's a large crap shoot that late in the draft to have players of world class quality crop up.
If Olivier Roy turns into the next Patrick Roy, and Toni Rajala turns into the Finish Datsyuk then how much of that is awesome drafting, and how much of that is just plain dumb luck? Fingers crossed though.
Oilers have lots of drafted players playing in the NHL.
ReplyDeleteMost of them just aren't particularly any good.
uni - well the goaltending situation right now falls on Bowman for not fixing it
ReplyDeleteyeah I don't know what goes on behind the scenes obviously but I would guess ownership may have wanted a splash, having said that Tallon has to say 'hey I'm the GM here's a better way' imo
as for the Wings well once again sure there's a little bit of luck but its one thing to roll a seven once but its another to do it a number of times which they have.
Its like a bad team saying they didn't get the bounces, at some point they're just a bad team. Same with the WIngs, they know what they're doing.
Hemsky/Penner are almost crazy if they want to stay in this putrid situation.
ReplyDeleteOilers have a long hard road ahead of them, with no guarantees of even being successful.
There is simply no reason at all other than the intangibles(Edmonton's not very high on that list) that either sticks out longer than their current contracts.
Just telling it the way it looks, folks.
Fuck the Wings as a model.
ReplyDeleteOkay here's what we do: Let's draft an Yzerman type, then after say, 7-8 years of blowing with him anyway we add a few digruntled Russian superstars who don't exist anymore), under a no cap spend all the money you want system(which like the Russians also no longer exists)...
Then over the next decade or so they win a lot of president's trophies, and enough cups(but never really enough), and all will be peachy.
Right now even the Wings wish they were using the Wings model.
It's funny. Last year, Penner was an anchor that nobody would ever take ever. This year, we're talking about making him the centerpiece for a trade to get the second overall and how he's too good to want to stick around through a rebuild.
ReplyDeleteNot really disagreeing with anything, it's just funny.
quain - I blame Herbal Magic.
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ReplyDeleteunder a no cap spend all the money you want system(which like the Russians also no longer exists)...
ReplyDeleteFunny but the Rangers had some of those advantages, and spent close to the GDP of some countries and still didn't win a thing. I wonder what the difference maker is?
In 2002 Hudler was ranked by CSS at #3 for Eur Skaters, Filpulla at #46, and Niniimaki at #50.
ReplyDeleteDetroit drafted Hudler at #58, Filpulla at #95. Oilers drafted Niniimaki at #15.
Frank Musil was recommending to the Bosses that they draft Hudler because he wouldn't last.
Tragic.
I see David Staples in the "Jurinal" is critical of the Oilers for not playing Eberle in the NHL right away.
ReplyDeleteYou would think the fact the Wings are in town tonight would remind him of to properly develop guys. Maybe he can survey the Oilers lineup and see how rushing Brule, Gagner, Cogliano, Smid, Dubnyk, O'Sullivan, etc. has worked out.
What a moron.
That was Dan Barnes who wrote that article.
ReplyDeleteI think you guys are nuts.
ReplyDeleteTalking about trading guys because you are scared they won't want to sign here? What kind of defeatist mentality is that? By trading him before he has a chance to say one way or the other, you are telling the rest of the players on the team and in the league that Edmonton is not interested in keeping the players they sign. Players don't want to be thought of as commodities. No one does. So you end up perpetuating the very image that Edmonton has had since Peter Puck sold Gretzky.
If you want to build a winning environment, those are two of the players I keep. I don't know if they are leadership material, but they know something about winning, and have enough natural talent to provide some cover for the other players we will be bringing up over the next little while.
Unless you want our 1st rounder this year to be playing the toughs come fall...
Golden, hunter, well said.
ReplyDeleteDetroit started its legacy of excellence in the late 80s, early 90s with their (curiously) fantastic way of identifying, propositioning, then eventually signing, the greatest European players not already in the NHL.
How CAN'T you develop a questionable player but who has loads of talent into a responsible, scoring/checking machine with the likes of Stevie Y, Feds, Larionov, Fetisov, Lidstrom, etc, etc, etc on the team and with them every practice?
The Oilers have no such legacy of excellence. They sold it to the Rags and Kings.
So here we are, chasing a "new" model to follow: Chicago. They still haven't won anything yet, but dammit they're fun to watch.
BTW, am I the only one who thinks Kane is overrated? Sure he's extremely dangerous offensively, but IMO he lacks the "it" factor that a Toews possesses. If the Oilers had won the lottery in 07 and taken Kane instead, would he be as noteworthy? I think not. Which brings us back to development...
1. Bring in draft picks to work on the farm until they are needed on the big squad. They are surrounded by experienced, effective, actual NHLers. They play few minutes, are given concrete roles, and face little media pressure because there are other, bigger fish in that sea. Turn into all-around stars.
2. Gut a team, re-create the identity, have consecutive years of high draft picks, play the kids together. Young'uns play in all situations, get tons of media attention, and have created an environment of youth, energy, and hope. Turn into superstars. Might win the cup one day, might not though.
There's really only one option at this point.
*Apologies...claritin and coffee make for scrambled posts*
Development can take different paths and forms. If we are sending a prospect (Eberle or otherwise) to the AHL we need to ask what are the objectives and will they be accomplished? For many of the Oilers prospects it has been the blind leading the blind. No detailed development plan and the results to confirm that.
ReplyDeleteJust playing a lot may not be a priority for Eberle's current development path. Didn't he just play in a full WHL season and at the World Juniors? My guess is that he needs to learn about training and preparing for NHL level competition. I suspect Springfield may not be the best environment for that based purely on their results. Can't Eberle just tag along with the Oilers and practice with them for the next couple weeks (and not dress for games)?
ReplyDeleteKesler re-signs in Vancouver for 6 years...
ReplyDelete$29,500,000.
ReplyDelete4.91 cap hit.
Looks like a pretty good deal to me... he's 25, has been pretty healthy, plays a great two-way game and brings some nice offense to the table as well.
Fuck.
Close to Horcoff's deal but still slightly lower per year.
ReplyDeleteFuck is right.
Ryan Kesler, 23rd overall in the 2003 draft. Oilers picked Pouliot 22nd overall in 2003. Wonder when his six-year deal is being announced?
ReplyDeleteJust a reminder...Mike Richards was selected 24th and Corey Perry selected 28th. Sigh.
Gentlemen, gentlemen
ReplyDeleteHindsight is 50/50
Black Dog: I share your skepticism about Oiler management. I want to be positive and have some hope, but I keep getting disappointed because they keep making stupid, nonsensical decisions. And it's not just Lowe. Or is it?
ReplyDeleteIt's not like I'm hoping for a brilliant draft pick like Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Just some plain good solid decisions and a Master Plan.
If the Brain Trust goes after another Hossa/Souray type UFA and offers big money long term or signs another injury prone veteran like Khabibulin, I think I'll....
Most knowledgeable fans just knew looking at all the information available to everyone, that the Khabibulin signing was a bad move, Souray was a huge overpay and he was injury prone, and that Heatley did not want to come here.
I mean what is wrong with these guys? This is not a sandbox.
Ryan Kesler, 23rd overall in the 2003 draft. Oilers picked Pouliot 22nd overall in 2003. Wonder when his six-year deal is being announced?
ReplyDeleteJust a reminder...Mike Richards was selected 24th and Corey Perry selected 28th. Sigh.
And in 2001 we could have selected Sjostrom or Kobasew. C'est la vie.
Not much talk about Cornet these days. Is he destined to Springfield if R-N is eliminated in the Q? (Although I expect they will go deep in the play-offs.)
ReplyDeleteNice d-man on same team who is draft eligible: Jérôme Gauthier-Leduc. He is 6'1 and has 20 goals and 26 assists in 68 GP.
Bar Qu: Re hindsight is 20/20
ReplyDelete"If men could learn from history, what lessons it might teach us! But passion and party blind our eyes, and the light which experience gives us is a lantern on the stern which shines only on the waves behind."
Samuel Taylor Coleridge (or Kevin Lowe)
Or
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
George Santayana (or hopefully Stu Macgregor)
And thank you for the advice on how to link.
Lebowski,
ReplyDeleteI was intentionally mangling the metaphor. Its one of my two favourite to misquote because it gives a more meaningful statement.
Like, looking back, we might have a 50/50 shot at getting it right.
My other favourite is, let's jump off that bridge when we come to it (which also has applications to this management team).
Oh yeah, no problem too.
ReplyDeleteSamuel Coleridge Taylor is a great quotable guy who I have never read. I need to get on that.
Bar Qu,
ReplyDeleteKubla Khan is absolutely essential reading, if you're a reader-type person.
//Hindsight is 50/50
ReplyDeleteBeauty - I think mine's 54-40.
Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with that damn 30-30
There seems to be some disgruntlement with 2003 draft. Did something bad happen? I've got all day, you know.
Kesler's ends at ~31. That's the important difference there
If the Edmonton Oilers management were any sort of decent, they'd be providing a feed for the Falcons game tonight.
ReplyDeleteI'd honestly rather watch Eberle's game than see the Oilers lose again. It'd also be nice to watch Charles Linglet in action. Call me crazy, but I'm pegging him as next year's candidate for this year's Potulny.
dorito - You should be able to watch the game here. Starts at 5:05pm.
ReplyDeleteThe hawks template is a bit scary when you look into it. Lowe rolls it out there but it consists of three top 3 picks in 4 years. WE have to string together some absolute gems to make this happen.
ReplyDeleteI am in the sooner than later boat on the Hemsky Penner issue. I pray someone is honestly sitting down with a five year plan in mind. If we keep these guys through what inevitably is another year of suck, is there realistically any way they will stick around and, salarywise, do they fit into the projected long range structure? If a penner plus or a hemsky straight across puts me in the conversation for #2 pick, it seriously needs to be considered (factoring in likelyhood of resigning which should already be in discussion).
As far as the whole drafting situation goes I always get tired of hearing Detroit and nobody else.
IMO any conversation about teams pulling quality picks, over the past 15 years or so, ranks up like this:
1995 to Present:
1. Ottawa:
Meszaros (23), Eaves (29), Spezza (2)...yeah I know, Gleason (23), Emery (99), Schubert (127), Laich (193), Bochenski (223), Volchenkov (21), Vermette (55), Zanon (156), Havlat (26), C. Kelly (94), Fisher (44), Neil (166), Hossa (12), Arvedson (119), Rachunek (229), Philips (1), Dackell (136), S Salo (229)
Alfredsson 1994 Draft - 133
Demitra 1993 Draft - 227
2. Detroit:
- Frazen (97), Hudler (57), Fleischman (63), Flippula (95), Kronwall (29),Zetterburg (210), Fisher (25), Datsyuk (171)
3. Colorado:
-Statsny (44th), Wojtek (21st), Gilbert (129th), Svatos (227), Sauer (88th), Liles (159), Radivojevic (93), Vrbata (212), Finger (240), Tanguay (12), Skoula (17), Rehgr (19),Parker (20), Nueminen (78), Parrish (79), Hinote (167), Pahlsonn (176)
4. Buffalo:
Stafford (13), Vanek (5)...gimme year, Mcaurthur (74), Hejda (106), Ballard (11), Palle (20), Wideman (241), Novotny (22), D Roy (32), Pominville (55), Gaustad (220), Miller (138), Kalinin (18), Kotalik (164), Tallinder (48), Afinogenov (69), Campbell (156), Rasmussen (7), Sarich (27), Mckee (14), Biron (16)
Honourable Mentions: Sharks
How the Sens did not manage to piece together a cup in the last decade is truly baffling.
Was talking with a buddy about Hall vs Seguin, and i thought of a different tact to take on evaluating them. We have heard tons about their upside, but nothing about downside. My question to everyone then is what is the worst case scenario for them? I think they will be solid NHLer's even worst case. but what is the downside of each player? We came up with these for each
ReplyDeleteHall:
upside = Kane
downside = Lupul
Seguin
upside = Toews
downside = Horcoff
So not that we would plan for the downside, but with this pick we can't afford to screw up, so looking at the downside I wonder if it makes it clearer. Personally, this solidified it in my mind that Seguin is the better/safer pick. he will bring more then just the goal scoring, and if he doesn't pan out he becomes a solid two way player for your team, where Hall, while impactful, could be a one trick pony.
54-40
ReplyDelete:O)
A Dinwoodie's favorite way way back in the day.
spoiler: and captain tractor. fun memories.
ReplyDeleteI love the guy and really would like to have him as one of the vet leaders but surely there is going to start being some concern long term....A jebus looking over your star players injury record you start getting a sense why we are so 'injury prone' we put a guy as important as this out not at 100%...Sorry for the sidetrack but it gets real ugly when you start looking at injury frequency of these guys and how many of them are down with an injury, thrown back in after a few games then down for a big chunk of time. Never gave it too much thought but it's actually pretty damning and I bet we stack up poorly compared to a lot of the other teams out there.
ReplyDelete2009/11/26 Left shoulder surgery, remainder of the season.
2009/11/11 Missed 2 games (shoulder injury).
2009/11/08 Shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2009/10/19 Missed 1 game (flu).
2009/10/16 Flu, day-to-day.
2009/01/18 Missed 10 games (concussion).
2008/12/30 Nose injury, day-to-day.
2008/04/05 Missed the last game of the regular season (knee injury).
2008/04/02 Knee injury, day-to-day.
2008/01/05 Missed 5 games (knee injury).
2007/12/29 Knee injury, day-to-day.
2007/12/27 Knee injury, day-to-day.
2007/12/05 Missed 2 games (knee injury).
2007/12/02 Knee injury, day-to-day.
2007/03/27 Missed 1 game (right shoulder injury).
2007/03/24 Right shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2007/03/23 Missed 8 games (right shoulder injury).
2007/03/04 Right shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2007/01/20 Missed 1 game (shoulder injury).
2007/01/18 Shoulder injury, day-to-day.
2007/01/17 Undisclosed, left Tuesday's game.
2006/12/15 Missed 8 games (right shoulder injury).
2006/11/30 Right shoulder injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2006/07/25 Re-signed as a restricted free agent by the Edmonton Oilers to a six-year contract.
2005/08/15 Re-signed as a restricted free agent by the Edmonton Oilers to a one-year contract.
2004/09/18 NHL lockout: Signed with the HC Pardubice of the Czech Extraleague.
2003/02/25 Missed 4 games (abdominal injury).
2003/02/22 Abdominal injury, day-to-day.
2003/02/18 Flu, day-to-day.
2003/02/05 Missed 2 games (abdominal injury).
2003/01/29 Abdominal injury, day-to-day.
2003/01/24 Missed 1 game (abdominal injury).
2003/01/22 Abdominal injury, day-to-day.
2003/01/16 Missed 0 game (pulled stomach muscle).
2003/01/14 Pulled stomach muscle, day-to-day.
RE:Talking about trading guys because you are scared they won't want to sign here? What kind of defeatist mentality is that?
ReplyDeleteThere’s a difference between being scared and facing reality.
Sure Hemsky and Penner signed contracts to be here, but there were expectations regarding the team’s performance. Penner didn't sign on to a 30th place team. Sure he's getting paid well for it, but they want to win.
Regarding Penner moving from boat anchor to prized possession, color me cynical if you want, but we've all seen athletes improve their performance as the their contracts start to expire. Both players stand to make better money by playing on a team that is more competitive and increasing their stats.
When you are in financial trouble and need to sell off your assets you tend to sell off things that have a value because no one is interested in paying good money for your crap. A third year that resembled the first two and Penner would be on the untouchable list too. Kudo’s to him for rebounding.
Lowe made his choices after the Cup run, and he chose to concentrate on stats and ignore intangibles like work ethic and heart.
I don’t buy into the argument that the Oilers are too small. They are too soft, and small. You can have small guys that play hard, like Comrie, for instance.
They need more players that are willing to go into the battles in the corners and in front of the net; they need players that play tough. The Nilsson’s, and O’Sullivan’s and Lupul’s are too soft.
Every time they traded away a veteran for an unproven player or outright released Vets they got softer. It went past a tipping point and before you knew it there was very few left that are willing to pay the price.
Is there some point where we can all agree on a statute of limitations on complaining about the 2003 draft? Yes, we drafted sub-optimally that year. We had better years at the draft table other years. Yes, Parise, Getzslaf or Kesler and other fellows would have been better draft picks.
ReplyDeleteThe drafting over the last number of years has been better, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about something that happened the better part of seven years ago. What purpose is served by Oiler fans collective self flagelation over that draft year? None that I can see.
They dropped the ball, things have gotten better at the draft table since then. Deep breath everyone, let it go...move on.
54-40
ReplyDelete:O)
A Dinwoodie's favorite way way back in the day.
They are playing a free concert in Village square 5pm tomorrow,right outside my office.
ahhh...good memories for the old folks around here.
Someone want to log the first period's scoring chances while I finish watching the ~9pm NST round of NCAA games?
ReplyDeleteBruce?!
BRuce?!
BRUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dennis, I'll give it a shot.
ReplyDeleteGoing out to dinner with the little one before the in laws take her to the Dominican for a week, but we should be back in time for the start of the game.
How the Sens did not manage to piece together a cup in the last decade is truly baffling.
ReplyDeleteIt's not baffling at all. It's the same thing that did the Canucks in. Lack of goaltending. For all their talent the Sens have never had a solid above average #1 goaltender...Hasek notwithstanding since he was injured his entire time there it seems.
Damian Rhodes, Patrick Lalime types will not take you deep into the playoffs.
Also Jacques Martin has taken some heat as being not a very good coach, but everyone's a critic =).
Finally read the down the pipe article listing petry.
ReplyDeleteThis quote in the article made me smile:
If Linus Omark is to come to North America next year it’ll have to be a one way deal, and the Oilers know it. I’ve been told Omark is as good if not better than any current small forward the Oilers have so to me it’s worth the risk.
The last three drafts 4th round or lower choices:
2009:
4th (99) Bijios royal bank cup MVP
4th (101) Broke Ovechkin U18 Record
5th (133) Roy Hockey canada call-up
2008:
4th (103)Motin Best 16Y old D # in SEL History
5th (133) Cornet Top 18 Yr old Scorer in Q
6th (163) Hatikainen 3rd best 18 year old goal scoring season in Sm-Ligga history.
2007:
4th (97) Omark one of 14 in Sel history to be top 10 Scoring at U22. Naslund, Forsberg, Sedins the last to do it.
5th (127) Kytnar return from injury 1.32 P/GM. .55G/GM.
As has been discussed before Rounds 4 on down should be Selections with potential home run markers.
Rickibear:
ReplyDeleteThere is definitely no arguing that draftwise we appear to be pointed in the right direction.
Also, from a minor league affiliate standpoint, even the vet AHL'er signings last off season bodes well. The canning of peters as well.
I am optomistic that all our arrows on a draft/developmental side are beginning to be pointed in the right direction. Ownerships desire and money is there.
Cue tangent:
This is the big reason I hate anytime I read people trying to rant about Katz himself. He's more than willing to hold up his end of the bargain and that value in that will likely show up in time.
This is also the reason I hate the idea of LowBellini getting a pass (I could even stomach Tambo getting one for now) is well stated by more eloquent writers. There are pieces here and it seems manageable outside of the folks who are ultimately being paid as managers...
DBO,
ReplyDeleteI like your projection method. Quick and easy and gives you an idea where a prospect might fit in the lineup in a few years.
Eberle:
Upside - Ray Whitney
Downside - Nilsson
MPS:
Upside - Selanne
Downside - Dvorak
I know we all know this, but the Oilers can't offer a one-way deal to Omark under the current CBA.
ReplyDeleteEberle scored early in the Springfield game. Beauty, reminded me of the "goal."
ReplyDeleteNash with a goal in Cornell's 3-0 win today. Doing well for a draft bust. :-)
ReplyDeleteIs there someplace that logs the ahl minutes?
ReplyDeleteI'm watching and it seems like I see O'Marra out there for every other face off. Occasionally he's coming straight off, but it seems like he's gettings a lot of ice time.
"better than any current small forward"
ReplyDeletemeans gagner as well??????
I would actually be okay with them trying to get Riley Nash to go pro and having he and Petry play in Edmonton next year.
ReplyDeleteLet's see what they have rather then chase Jagrs
Barring one of those offers that one cannot refuse, on eshould keep both Penner and Hemsky for at least one more year, and probably till the trade deadline of the secomd year, so our young players can play soft minutes.
ReplyDeletePenner, Horcoff, Hemsky is a legit 1st line, and other teams will have to respect that.
Sign a third line that can play tough minutes.
The gives you a second line for Eberle, Seguin, and MlPS to develop without being tossed to the wolves.
Datsiuk and Zetterberg weren;t tossed to the wolves.
Eberle with a goal and a primary assist in a 2-0 Springfield game.
ReplyDeleteThe gives you a second line for Eberle, Seguin, and MlPS to develop without being tossed to the wolves.
ReplyDeleteThat assumes that
a) You can shelter them on the road
b) We have a coach who is willing to match lines and at least shelter them at home
I think that either Seguin or Hall are going to be nice picks. I think that as a collective we tend to the pessimistic these days (why I have no idea!) but most likely they're both going to turn out pretty well. We're not talking Crosby but they're going to be fine players I believe.
ReplyDeleteAnd really the Oilers are building a pretty decent stable of prospects. Some aren't going to make it due to injury or just not being good enough but there's a nice mix of kids coming up. The pick this year, MPS, Eberle, Lander, the Finn, Nash, Vande Velde, Petry, Plante, Motin, Omark, Rajala, Roy, Cornet.
Some real longshots there too I know but most of these guys have arrows pointing in the right direction and there are some interesting guys who are going to make their living doing the little things teams need to win.
My only fear and I think its a legitimate one, especially based on these past couple of years, is that management is going to blow it with the development. The past few years have seen kids put into a position to fail rather than to succeed. Its fine to throw kids to the wolves when their names are Gretzky, Messier, Lowe, Kurri, Coffey, Fuhr, Anderson, Moog and so on.
I'd rather that the vast majority of the kids get an education in the minors but its not going to happen I know. And there's the danger.
Totally not making it home in time for the start of the game...
ReplyDeleteNo worries, DB. I took a hit on the GTech/Oaklahoma St game so I'm done with the college hoops for tonight:)
ReplyDeleteLT: Did Cornell make the tourney? Finally it's good that Eberle had a primary assists but if he got one of those garbage second assists he would fall out of favour with people like Brownlee.
Dennis: They'll make it but NCAA hockey is a little behind basketball. Cornell plays the winner of the St. Lawrence-Union game (that game is being played now) tomorrow night. The winner is the ECAC champion and gets into the tournament automatically.
ReplyDeleteI would think they'll be in the tournament no matter the outcome and have a chance to play in the Frozen Four this season.
I haven't really paid a lot of attention to the 2010 edition of the Edmonton Oilers so forgive me if these are easy answers.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Sam Gagner centering Minard and Stortini?
Is Cogliano centering Brule and Penner an effort towards a 13 pump and dump this offseason?
Its definately nice to see the guys in blue with some jump, I just wish they weren't doing it against the guys in direct playoff competition against the team down the road.
Well this has been fun so far.
ReplyDeleteCogliano looks like a different player. A little more confident.
Derek - they lack on the wings for sure. In Toronto Gagner was dragging around Minard and Pouliot, Horcoff was saddled with Moreau and Comrie.
Nothing much out there.
Kicking the ass of a well rounded machine aren't we?
ReplyDeleteDid any one else notice that Minard looked like a real goal scorer on that pp?
ReplyDeleteDetroit played like complete retards the first five minutes. I suspect they'll really start bearing down and end up winning 4-2
ReplyDeleteI had the oilers with the games's first seven chances and I don't think that's happened since G6 of SCF in '06.
ReplyDeleteDetroit looks slow and old.
ReplyDeleteMoreau's never been a good passer, but now it actually seems like he should play the game without a stick. He'd take less penalties that way.
ReplyDeleteThree posts in a row, but good god Johnson forgets how to play defense sometimes.
ReplyDeleteGoal by some waiver wire scrub. That's the Oilers I know.
ReplyDeletenilsson... oh...
ReplyDeleteEaves was a first round pick. Nilsson with the ridiculous giveaway pass leading to the goal. That's the Oilers I know.
ReplyDeleteThe sioux with a BIG win over denver. Another goal for VDV. Nice couple of days for him. Could be an interesting tournament assuming ND and Cornell both make it.
ReplyDeleteInteresting in the first intermission, Dreger with slight hint that Seguin might be #1.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I don't get. If Hall is the big goal scoring prospect and Seguin has eight more than him then, um, what's the deal? If you want the goal scorer and one guy has more goals and he's by all accounts more well rounded and he's a pivot then I think its a no brainer.
This third perios is going to be hold on for dear life and I am going to go out on a limb and predict that it doesn't end well.
Still its been entertaining, the Oilers are playing hard and Peckham has shown well. My God he loves to hit. Plus he blocks shots. Stortini better watch his back; I think Bruce may be looking to adopt again.
The other thing about Seguin is the amount of improvement made over this season.
ReplyDeleteAt the start of the season there was a fairly large gap and now they're even with Seguin possibly ahead. That's a lot of ground covered in one year and it implies the gap might be wider a year from now.
Ethan Gump.
ReplyDeletePat: Bruce has a big heart so I'm sure both 46 and 49 will receive adequate love:)
ReplyDeleteLT: that's a great point and of course there's the difference in age - at least in terms of month born - so all this together means the Oil should take the centre.
But I keep thinking back to the Weight trade and the "one shot scorer" rhetoric and then the same with the Albertan Mike Bossy and I think we know how this story will end.
moreau.. is quickly becoming a synonym for 'Puke'.. that giveaway was putrid...
ReplyDeleteRemember the time Eddie Gadael knocked 27 off the puck?:D
ReplyDeleteDennis: Great line.
ReplyDeleteI'm cheering like hell for Dubnyk but the script doesn't look good.
Gentlemen, just noticed its now 2-1. Havent seen a game in while. But the Oil will loose, right? Right??
ReplyDeleteLT: You knew it was for you:)
ReplyDeleteThat was a dandy play by 89 to follow Franzen to the net; he's much more aware defensively than he used to be and I think he'll be a 60-65 point guy who's a plus player playing top six tough min.
don't know if they'll loose, but they'll probably find a way to lose.
ReplyDeleteDennis - yeah hard to say though, eh? I mean this Seguin kid seems to do it all. Unless the Oilers look at 10, 13, 89 and figure they're ok up the middle.
ReplyDeleteThey're certainly poor on both wings.
I say take the pivot but what do I know.
Its the prevent D but its been a decent night for the Oilers. Gilbert and Whitney make a nice pair. Gilbert is all kinds of calm, eh?
Gagner with a wonderful defensive play on Franzen.
And Peckham has had a terrific game. A few more of these and he'll be looking good to start next season on that third pair.
Oh sure Dennis you always bring up that Gaedel play. One time, man, one time!
ReplyDeleteDubnyk with his first NHL win?
ReplyDeleteCuthbert: it all started with Moreau couldn't get the puck out of the zone.
ReplyDeleteI think that will be on my gravestone; either that or "as he lays in rest he will always wonder why Jason Smith pinched with a three goal lead late in the second period in Game One of the Stanley Cup Final."
I sort of watched the game tonight... more than usual, at least.
ReplyDeleteNice to see Dubnyk get the W. Well earned...
Er... is it?
Flames going past the wings in the standings i believe.
ReplyDeleteTrade deadline moves paying off so far.
God, I could almost cry for DD right about now.
ReplyDeletePoor Dubnyk.
ReplyDeleteBut a nice FU to Calgary.
Tied with 0.5 seconds left. Moreau standing around fiddling his thumbs in the corner as it squeaks out.
ReplyDeleteDennis: It went off Commodore's HAIR. And then back the other way and Roloson was not stellar that game and Brind'Amour waits for it to come out the other side.
ReplyDeleteI'll never get over it.
Pat: I think the play a few min ago where Jason Williams threw down 27 was even worst than the time young Steen did it. I mean Steen's a bit bigger than Williams isn't he?
ReplyDeleteYou just knew they would score.
ReplyDeletePoor dubbie... this sad sack team has been turtle-ing the entire period, would have been nice for the game to just be over... now, another shoot out loss for dubbs?!..
ReplyDeleteSo many mixed emotions right now, chiefly among them a sick feeling for DD and a bit of an inner smirk for all the Flames fans who watched that goal and cursed a blue streak.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of how this finishes it's the most comfortable I've seen DD play all season. Ferraro's been trumpeting his rebound control and rightly so and I've loved how he's seen so many pucks through traffic. The second goal was emblematic of so many we've seen since Khabby took the rest of the year off to drink and drive but there were a lot of good signs.
If I was a miserable took I might even take to stumping for the guy;)
... was there not a single scoring chance in the entire OT?
ReplyDeleteWe're almost to the point of the SO so considering 89's two for his last 25 attempts I hope he makes the top three!!
ReplyDelete10 and 12 should be the first two and where do we go from there? 67 has shown some promise.
18 for the comic relief?
Maybe 39 has an impressive AHL SO resume?
Put Eberle in!!!!
ReplyDeleteOh... well, not quite yet I guess :).
10, 12 and 16 would be my choices.
I go Cogliano (he's back a little), Nilsson (he's got sick skills where no one's around) and Lubo.
ReplyDeleteOh. wait.
I don't remember the last time I wanted the Oilers to win this bad. Come on, hockey Gods. ffs.
Hey there Dennis, leave old 27 alone. It was ONCE! ONCE! Other than that the guy's a brute out there. ;)
ReplyDeleteWell a shitty end to reg. Peckham with a little panic but if Moreau had just kept his eye on the puck he shovels it back in there. Instead he crosschecks the guy who deosn't have the puck?
Too bad for DD and for 49. Both had nice games.
And tonight another feather in DD's cap. I'd take him over JDD any day. Guy looks like he actually knows how to play goal, for one thing.
Fuck DD, I'd rather put the boots to Calgary.
ReplyDeleteyeah fatty!!
ReplyDeleteMen v. boys, eh? All the way. But boys are up one now.
ReplyDeleteNaw Schitzo the Flames aren't making it, not with that schedule.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=3367
ReplyDeleteAw Nilsson you're good for nothing, you dink.
ReplyDeleteCome on, Dubnyk. One time. Watch out for the seeing eye single.
ReplyDelete67 is a bit of a one trick pony, but it's one hell of a trick.
ReplyDeleteGood stuff for Dubnyk.
WOOT! Couldn't have done it without Moreau.
ReplyDeleteGood for the kid and look how happy his teammates are for him.
ReplyDeleteThat's about the best moment of the season.
That was a nice little game for once. Congrats to Dubnyk.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to bring 67 back for one more season just to see what he could do against real comp; the fucker has a lot of energy and he can hammer the puck.
ReplyDeleteOverall I'm glad the kid got his first win and we didn't totally fuck Cgy but at least the Wings got a point out of it:)
ah nice.. wins it with a save...
ReplyDeleteGood on ya Dubs...
Now we can all speculate on how Dub's may or may not be the starting goalie of the future (insert Bookies sarcastic exclamation mark)
HuH?
ReplyDeleteSorry for posting a Dubnyk win.
Sarcasm wasn't intetional.
The NHL.com website showed a 2-1 victory in regulation.
Then i saw all those comments and wasn't surprised Moreau fucked up somehow
Flames are doomed. Now that the Wings are healthy they're going to make it.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I like how Iggy has 32 in a year he's on the decline apparently. What a player.
Good for DD. I'd love to see them give him some more games. And happy for 49 too. He had an excellent game, imo, but probably felt a little shame at the end there.
67 is an interesting cat. He's aggressive and he can shoot. Still has upside I think, at the very least he can do some damage to the softs you would think.
Peckham showed a lot tonight, I think. He's going to make mistakes but is gaining confidence and playing his game. He'd certainly be worth looking at in the 6-7 area of the depth chart.
ReplyDeletePeckham; cheap, physical and improving...
ReplyDeleteDoes this overlap with the inclusion of johnson? or more the merrier?
I kind of see Andy Sutton in Peckham and there is nothing wrong with having a guy like that around.
ReplyDeleteAdd Smid to that mix and Edmonton has the start of a nice Volchenkov-Sutton-like pairing.
ReplyDeleteBill Veeck is smiling.
ReplyDeleteI've been pretty impressed with Whitney so far in his run with the Oiler's. I realize it's a small sample size but he doesn't try to do too much with the puck and it doesn't look like he talks to pink elephants so he could be an anchor on the d-corps for next season. Gilbert seems to be comfortable playing with him also.
If it was up to me, I'm looking to trade Penner in the off season. Even though his end of season numbers will be decent, he's reverted back to lazy Dustin the last 30 or 40 games and I think his stock won't ever be higher than it will be around the draft. I'm not sure what the return would be but I would be surprised if they weren't quite a few suitors for him.
Good for DD, he deserved this one.
If my Dido was still alive, he would take Ethan Moreau out behind the barn and shoot him already. How they play this fuck every game is beyond me?
I don't know why Ethan Moreau continues playing hockey.
ReplyDeleteI personally know it, and can't live with it when i'm useless to a Hockey team. I just prefer staying at a lower level than slowing the rest of the team down and being a pain.
FPV: He has 1.75 million reasons to continue playing hockey next season. I wouldn't walk away from that and I don't expect him to either. Hopefully, some other franchise will be paying that tab though. I still think he can be a useful NHL player but it would need to be with a veteran group where his role is clearly defined and he would have to lose that sense of entitlement that he seems to have.
ReplyDeletePboy: Well considering he's already sitting on a big pile of cash, i don't think it would bother him that much.
ReplyDeleteWell unless his wife already spent half of his salary. Which wouldn't be unlikely.
He's made roughly 16 million in his career so far. He would be walking away from a considerable amount if he stopped playing next year and seeing that he is healthy, I would say the odds of him not playing are 0%.
ReplyDelete=( .
ReplyDeleteStop crushing my hopes
I personally know it, and can't live with it when i'm useless to a Hockey team. I just prefer staying at a lower level than slowing the rest of the team down and being a pain.
ReplyDeleteFPV - I am betting that for $2 million a year you would piss in the teams water bottles and yodel on the bench for a year. Its easy to decide to stop playing or drop down a league when there is no cash on the line.
I don't know if Brule is a great guy to take a bet on. He's shooting at a clip (14%) that he will likely never approach again in his career, and he's kinda clueless in his own end. He's never been much of a scorer at the pro level, either, until this year.
ReplyDeleteI simply cannot fathom him getting any better. If management has learned anything over the past few seasons, they will trade him at the draft. His trade value won't get any higher.
Ah what do we not do for that green green money.
ReplyDeleteWell maybe he's just so much into he's own world he became semi-autistic and in his made up world he's in the race for the Art Ross.
I don't know which scenario is better.
I was at the game tonight reading the program and came across an answer to a question that was asked here over the past couple of days. What kind of psychological testing do the Oilers use for their draft picks. Their was an article on the draft with KP and SM. They use the "Caliper Canadian Psychological" test.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.personality-and-aptitude-career-tests.com/caliper-test.html
"I don't know if Brule is a great guy to take a bet on...He's never been much of a scorer at the pro level, either, until this year."
ReplyDeleteYes, interesting how he wasn't been much of a scorer until now, considering he's only now 22 years of age. You don't think he can get any better? Well I can't say that he WILL get a lot better, but I certainly think he COULD get a hell of a lot better. He's a bright kid - he was CHL scholastic player of the year in his draft year - and he has all the skills that you could ask for in a player, other than size of course (not a skill). He's fast, stick handles well, passes and shoots well, and has some passion for the game. Poor defensively, but not uncommon for a 22 year old. If he can become more consistent and learn his own end, then we got a real nice piece for Raffi Torres, who proved time and time again that he was the opposite of consistent and that he was about as dumb as Ethan Moreau when it comes to taking stupid penalties.
I agree with Bling.... Brule's value will never be higher than it is right now, and I'd be all over a deal for him because you could probably get some pretty nice value coming back the other way.
ReplyDeleteHell, if we can get a defenseman with 200 GP and under 24 who knows how to protect himself that's a deal I'd probably make a heartbeat...
I would not be ready to give up on Brule. I think he has enough grit, energy and speed to play well defensively once he learns the game. He was rushed by the Blue Jackets and seems to be finally coming into his own.
ReplyDeleteHe is only 22 for cripes sakes. If he went to college he might be just graduating. Given his history its a tad early to call this his career high.
He could be a Maltby, Glencross type but he also has good enough instincts in the offensive zone and a good enough shot that he still has room to grow.
Peter:
ReplyDeleteI phrased that poorly, my apologies. I can certainly envision a scenario in which Brule is an effective player. He would need butter-soft minutes, and he would have to play with a center who has a clue defensively. And, of course, he would have to replicate that shooting percentage.
Personally, I'd rather give minutes like that to an Eberle, an MPS, or a Hall/Seguin. I think all three of those guys could do better with those minutes starting next season and be better defensively.
If that is the case, why keep him around?
I wouldn't mind him as a checking winger if he could play defense, but he can't or he won't and, quite frankly, he doesn't seem very interested in it.
I'm with PDO. Jettison him for a dman. Or a goalie. Or a forward who can play defense. Or a forward who can cycle the puck. Or...we have a lot of holes, here, don't we?
i know it's been a hard year but trade penner or hemsky on the LAST year of their contract please. chubs and hemsky played well together. i wanna see that next year, with hall, and here's hoping they put some bionic parts in nick's back that runs on vodka. and moreau retires...
ReplyDeletedubnyk must be relieved. good on him, however, calgary better not make the playoffs by one point. kesler in vancouver for 6 more years? i keep looking over my shoulder for the hidden camera this season.
I simply cannot fathom him getting any better.
ReplyDeleteThe guy is like 300% better than he was last year, and you can't fathom him improving any more? That's just nuts. He's young, fast, good hands, plus shot (see the shootout? again?) and plays with an edge. Obviously he doesn't fit in on this crew. Let's dump that bum and bring in another POS or two.
I would trade Penner and Brule for the TO pick in less than a second if given the chance. Already said so at least once and well, well, before the Brownlee's of the world ever started piping up.
ReplyDeleteThen again... I was the guy pushing hard for a trade for Columbus' #7 pick back in 2007... and that was when I thought such a move might net me ONE of Gagner or Voracek.
Wow. Looked at this old piece again:
http://ykoil.blogspot.com/2007/07/good-old-fashioned-penner-offer.html
And to think I was calling out Oilers management well BEFORE then. Jeebus these guys are shyte. My left asscheek could manage a player asset roster better.
Another thing I will say again - by taking the rebuild option Lowebellini ensured themselves another 2+ years of work.
Rye. Good for what ails you.
I was at the game tonight. Thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. I wasn't shocked they gave up that tying goal. This team has been giving up game tying goals in the final minute since game 1 of 2007-2008.
2. Rexall feels dead. Empty seats throughout every section fans seem to be showing up out of obligation rather than by choice.
3. Having been to GM place for the Olympics, I can attest Rexall place is a dump. That's not to say I support primarily public funding for a new arena.
4. I will get some peace of mind when the Oilers have locked up 30th place. Here's hoping they lose their next 3 home games.
5. Plenty of phudus at the game booing Shawn Horcoff in the pre-game introductions and when he was in the penalty box.
It's quite sad, actually.
Just seeing the rest of the highlights now. Brule had a great steal and backhand pass to Cogs for the first goal, crashed the crease and screened the goalie on the second, then scored the winner on a wicked wrist shot in the shootout. Tell me again, which one of those skills was his "one trick"?
ReplyDeleteYou'd think after a game like tonight's - 0-2-2, +2, 5 hits, 67% on the dot, shootout winner - he might get a pat on the back around here. Instead you guys just want to ship his 23-year-old ass out of town? FFS, that's just sillytalk.
I agree with Bruce re: Brule. He's a young player who was brought up to the NHL too quickly and battled injuries. As a 5th overall pick, it would be prudent to keep him around until you're convinced he's reached his ceiling.
ReplyDeleteSaw a kid with a foam finger at the game. He reminded me of Bruce.
YKOil - I honestly think the Oilers would be in a much better position if you were the GM instead of Kevin Lowe or Steve Tambellini.
ReplyDeleteKevin Lowe got the GM position based on his connections and the fact he won 6 Stanley Cup damn-it, not based on merit.
I would trade one of Penner or Hemsky in a second. Yeah it's a rebuild and yeah their contracts are going to waste. Hall + Seguin would be a dream. Heck, I'd be happy with Hall or Seguin and maybe Nino Neiderreiter. Of course we'd try to pick up a role player or something along with the pick.
ReplyDeleteIf we can pick up more players like Jones, Johnson and Potulny, then when the rebuild is done we'll have a stable of young talent from which we can trade assets or groom the next set of Jarret Stolls, Marty Reasoners and Steve Staios'.
Bruce:
ReplyDeleteBrule pro-rates to just over 20 goals in an 82 game sked with a 14% shooting percentage. Is he a 20 goal man? Sounds unsustainable, smells unsustainable...hmmm
Look, his defensive misadventures will be amplified when the puck stops going in, the knives will come out, and then we'll all cry about why this team is so woefully bedridden with bad contracts. Why not spare ourselves the drama?
I will conceded that he is of a different mould than the other bumpkins, but I worry about throwing a Nilsson contract at him and watching him go all Nilsson, or even worse, O'Sullivan.
And those guys both had better pedigrees than him. By a mile. Trade him now and get something good.
Could you stop pissing on one of the kids who actually care?
ReplyDeleteGilbert Brule C 59 15 19 34 36 -5
That's not that bad. Really not that bad considering the team he is playing on.
Right now he's performing.
Qual Comp Qual Team
-0.027 -0.049
Middle of the pack in both. I don't see the big issue.
Even if you say ''Well he rides his high shooting %''
Well... he's still 2nd on team for goals/60 behind Pouliot. He doesn't get a lot of icetime, but cashes in when he does.
In the perfect world, EFFPEEVEE would take out a loan for $60 million and have him build his DREAM TEAM and have it play in this league.
ReplyDeleteOf course after it gets slaughtered from having the worst players in history, we'd have the perverse satisfaction of watching the young lad lose his shirt.
R O: Can't beat those Oilers in that category.
ReplyDeleteGod damit.
Don't you have ANYTHING to do besides spitting at me? I mean you must be a lonely old man. Do a comment that has no link with me for a while or something. In short : GET A LIFE!
It seems to me that the same guys who loved the Magnificient Seven PDO number beasts from the late, failed, stretch drive in 2007 ... they also love Gilbert.
ReplyDeleteNot to say Brule is a bad player, but he cheats for offense like nobody here since Lupul. There is no coach in this league that teaches cherrypicking, that's a fact. And strong side? ... it's madass.
MacTavish's press conference after Pitkanen was traded, it was terrific. The onlt bit of it that never got transcribed to the interenet or dissected on talk radio, it was the best bit.
Paraphrasing badly:
Hockey is a unique game, the way you play, the decisions you make on the ice, they reveal a lot about your character.
Nothing could be more true, in my opinion. That's what makes hockey such a beautiful game. The fact that guys like Bruce are oblivious, and always will be ... that used to grate on my tit, but now I think it's part of the beauty.
And those guys both had better pedigrees than him. By a mile.
ReplyDeleteTo me "pedigree" means "draft pedigree". Brule was drafted 6th overall, Nilsson 15th, POS 56th.
Vic: I'm not oblivious to the fact that the player we see today at 23 is not as good as the one we'll see at 25 or 27. Very few NHLers are finished products at that age.
ReplyDeleteCall me crazy - and I know you have and will - but I see more to like in Brule at 23 than I do in either O'Sullivan or Nilsson at 25.
By the way, when you talk about "cheating for offence", is that something you see in your numbers, or "seen him bad"? Just curious.
By the by, I haven't been following the Oilers closely at all lately, and only had the game on last night in the background, but Ferraro made a great point last night. The Oilers are playing "box and a man" in their own end now, have been since before Christmas. For all the detractors of trap hockey, this is the real demon. This is what you generally play when you know you're not good enough, but want to drag the game out long enough to give lady luck a larger say.
ReplyDeleteStauffer calls this "Zone Defence", or I think he does. In beer league everyone plays either Zone (rarely) or Two-Shouts Defence (Get seven! get seven! ... in front! in front! ... I got the guy with the beard! I got the guy with the beard!) ... also known as complete freaking mayhem, or no system at all.
Bob Johnson would have called the Oilers current system "Box and a man in", and they were playing "Box and a man on" in previous years, and for the early part of this year, until Quinn acknowledged the cards in his hand.
Let's face it, there is no sense in trying to get the puck back when you're this frivelous with possession. Plus it sort of forces the cheaters (we used to pick on Lupul, now we're spoilt for choice!) back into the defensive zone.
Bruce said:
ReplyDeleteBy the way, when you talk about "cheating for offence", is that something you see in your numbers, or "seen him bad"? Just curious.
It's flagrantly obvious, Bruce.
I don't know if you're demanding that I find a way to quantify this, is that what you are doing?
Let's be frank, Bruce, even if I rewatched a few PVRed games and slo-moed some stuff, came up with a reasonable way to try and capture that (and I don't think it can be done, Neilson eventually fell back on scoring chance +/-, so should we, probably).
But even if I did, and found a way, we both know that you and Traktor, Hunter, LMHF, etc won;t be swayed. You're in it with you're hearts. To me it seems crazy that way, a bounce rolls right, or a shooter makes his shot ... he's a god. Otherwise: asshole.
This emotional rollercoaster that you cats are on, not my thing. God bless each and every one of you, though.
Bruce:
ReplyDeleteTo add. Get me game tape, proper game tape, and we'll bust this fucker wide open, at least for a hundred or so folks that read here.
It's crazy the stuff that guys like Desjardins say. Hell, after the game in the Olympics vs the Swiss ... the Swiss didn't trap, nor did they play a box and a man in. I'm sure we all though they would. And the Canadian team sent the third forward low and never let their D pinch. When was the last time you saw that in the NHL? That's some madass shit.
Yet the storyline from every place I read on the web is "The Swiss trapped!" ... and it's said as if it were a form of cheating.
It flat out didn't happen, at least not in my beer-doused memory. But how do I show that? Bust out some of "my numbers" as you say (that's an obvious attempt to gain the favour of the other folks here who have the same capacity for reason as yourself, few are fooled).
It's game tape, or let it go. I had no tape, so I let it go.
I will say that that was the exact sort of mad shit you see from smart coaches who have too much time to prepare. There is such a thing as outsmarting yourself. And that's the one evil that Quinn will never subject himself to.
I don't know if you're demanding that I find a way to quantify this, is that what you are doing?
ReplyDeleteNot at all. I just know that usually when you make a case you have numbers at your beck and call, and wondered if you might be doing the same here. For the life of me I can't think of what stat might betray "cheats for offence" other than a shitty +/- like Lupul had, but was interested in your take if you had seen something in the numbers.
If it's just good old-fashioned observation, that's valid, in fact I agree with you on this player though I don't think he's as bad as Joffrey Lupul, or Patrick O'Sullivan for that matter. At least he'll join the battle on occasion, even as he makes errors of omission too frequently for my liking.
I do see things to like in this guy, and not just his shot. Things like that backhand pass to Cogliano last night, which wasn't exactly the hallmark of a bury-your-head-and-shoot kind of player. That's far from the first time I've been quite impressed with Brule's playmaking, especially in tight to the net; he does have decent finish, and I like his edginess. Already that's more things to like than in some of these duds, er, dudes wearing copper and blue. Lots to dislike too, l-o-t-s of rough edges to file down, some bad instincts, too many bad games. Such players tend to be erratic and to really polarize fan opinion. Overriding factor for me is his youth which serves to temper my criticism to some extent. He's got a long way to go, but he's leaps and bounds ahead of last year so I for one am quite happy to wait and see.