In the book Lions In Winter, my favorite story about the storied Habs involves Harper:
"Boooooooooooooo!"
Just inside the blueline, Harper slid off yet another bodycheck and carried the puck behind the Chicago net. As he skated directly behind the cage, two Black Hawks smashed into him simultaneously. Falling, he still had enough leverage to pass the puck out in front of the net where John Ferguson was all alone in front of Tony Esposito . Ferguson made no mistake, and the Canadiens were on their way to a 4-2 win (and an eventual Cup).
A teammate, who prefers to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, summed it up best: "That was the best 'fuck you' play I've ever seen in hockey. It was all some of the players could do not to give the crowd the finger".
Harper disentangled himself from the two Chicago players and rose to the rare, for him, sound of a standing ovation as all of his teammates on the ice converged around him, rather than Ferguson the scorer.
In the stands, fans were cheering wildly, if not looking out the corners of their eye in semi-accusation at all of their confreres who had had the temerity to boo such a wonderful hockey player.
I saw Harper on television the other night, he's like 70 and still playing rec hockey. Seemed happy with life and enjoying the game. Terry Harper and Tom Gilbert are not good comps in terms of style, but they are a match in one way: the home fans aren't impressed despite evidence of their effectiveness.
I've read a few places this year that "Gilbert is playing well--for Gilbert" and other backhanded compliments. It is with some dismay that I've watched the one guy with credentials and endurance during this 07-11 train wreck become the lightning rod for all that is bad on the blue.
Despite all the rants and raves, the coach (actually three of them) kept playing Gilbert, just like coaches kept playing Harper. Tom Awad is right--TOI in all three situations is a great judge of value.
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It's a big day in the arena debate, all creatures great and small will be talking all day before council makes a decision. I gave my views here and like you will wait for the decision. I don't think this is going to be a good day for Oiler fans.
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As for the Oilers, they have a tough schedule this week and could go 0-3. Canucks tonight, Caps on Thursday and then on the road Friday night against the Avs. That's a difficult schedule, with only St. Louis on Sunday offering good odds based on quality of team and recent performance.
I think we should prepare for a few L's this week. On and off the ice.
We've become conditioned over the past few years to expect the worst from this team at certain times. They just about always do save for a 6 game streak a couple years ago and a 3 gamer last year in Eastern Canada. Is this year's edition any different? We'll find out by about mid November.
ReplyDeleteThe incentive for public persons to engage in large-scale legacy projects on the backs of their constituents is too great. The taxpayer always gets screwed despite the fact that every legitimate economics textbook describes this type of spending as sheer folly and destructive to economies.
ReplyDeleteThere are major cities in the US teetering on the edge of bankruptcy right now because they engaged in this same madness. Oh well, at least they saved their sports teams. My God.
No one is actually discussing what is going on here... That is they are not comparing it to the other scenario--Katz doing this privately, funded by investment banks and his own money.
Why is he not doing that is the question that should have been asked every week of this debate and it has yet to be raised for the first time. He is not doing this privately because he leverages his money by not tying it up in an arena complex. Tbis allows him to continue to invest in the expansion of his retail drug empire at a much greater and faster rate. Ie he wants his cake and eat it too. On the backs of taxpayers.
@LT: I'm pretty sure 25 in blue is the famous Orland Kurtenbach.
ReplyDeleteHarper was a scrappy bastard, eh. Just a fierce competitor. It wasn't just Habs fans who hated him, fans of teams trying to beat the Habs didn't like the guy either. Fucker was always in the way.
Talk about a no win situation.
Clarkenstein:
ReplyDeleteI think this team is different, we've seen more compete each year since they've started turning the roster over. This year the battle level is really good seen in the improvement in shot differential and scoring chances.
Will the outcome be different? In the end, likely not a lot with the holes in the D core and so many rookies. If ST doesn't drop the ball next year we should be in the playoffs or very near.
With typical Oiler luck, right in time to not get a shot at MacKinnon ;) Maybe they can find a deal.
Gilbert is playing well and is certainly a big contributor to our success this season. I just wonder if we'll ever see the absolute top of his game again.
ReplyDeleteHe's still missing some of the offensive zone play that made his name on the team initially.
One more thing about the pic, look at the fans and you'll realize that Harper-Kurtenbach are no longer the focus, their scrap is over (with Kurtenbach surely the winner, Harper bloody but unbowed as the old saying went), but there's a secondary scrap going on just at the edge of the frame, lower right. Still, this photographer chose his subjects well. Great shot.
ReplyDeleteThey Oilers lost to the Dys 4-3 when they didn't have Kessler and Booth.
ReplyDeleteThis should be a little worse.
The MSM is (mostly correctly) lauding the play of the Dcorps.
Tonight and Thursday they will be up against some of the best players in the league.
It might get ugly because both VAN and WSH have two lines that can kill you and there is only one 94-10-x line.
91-20-89 is going to see some heavy lifting in the next couple of games.
Sutter targeted the 13-25 pair when the Oilers played Calgary. He put Iginla on the ice every time those two jumped over the boards.
I expect Vigneault and Boudreau to do the same with the Pisscutters and Ovenchicken.
Those two spend a lot of time playing behind 4-93-14.
These next two games might be like road games for that line.
Go Oilers!
there is only one 94-10-x line.
ReplyDeleteWG: Still having trouble coming to terms with Jones being a full-time member of that line, eh?
Buddy doesn't get much love in these parts. Considering he pulls down all of 11% of the cap hit of the line, I think he's been holding his own not too bad. Agreed he is the third best player on the line, but at $6.25 / $5.5 / $1.5, I don't know how folks could expect otherwise.
Bruce: you're right, Jones hasn't looked terrible there.
ReplyDeleteHowever, he's a placeholder until either Hemsky gets back, OR Renney decides to move Gagner up to 2RW.
I'd actually like to see them try 94-10-89 at some point. If Renney was so willing to consider sitting RNH down to "see what the lineup looked like without him", how about icing a lineup that might be the team make-up after Hemsky is (perhaps) dealt?
4-93-14
94-10-89
91-20-23
55-57-28
Or some variant thereof. And no, for the record, I'd rather they keep 83.
hotruum - What the parents drink out of their insulated mugs while escorting the kids out trick-or-treating.
(Sidebar - do people even take their kids out on Halloween anymore? I've heard stories from people I know that used to get 100+ kids at Halloween for candy that got a dozen or less last year...)
It all depends on your neighbourhood HBomb, my folks are surrounded by older folks, a lot of retirees so they don't get the kids they used to.
ReplyDeleteOur neighbourhood has seen more and more young families come in and more and more babies born. When we first moved here, nine years ago, Halloween was pretty quiet but now its getting pretty mental.
Hbomb,
ReplyDeleteWe've taken the boys out the last 5 years, all through the neighborhood (sometimes the only time I see my neighbors, frankly). It is a great time, but then again, we live in a young area.
Tonight and Thursday are the nights that should inform the "keep RNH up" meme of what to expect for the 30+ more games on the road. I suspect he will struggle once he's line-matched. Which makes Gagner on 94-10's line that much a better option. Split the focus of opposing coaches, and then puts Jones in a position to succeed with Eager and Lander (I like Hbomb's lines, can you tell?).
WG: Still having trouble coming to terms with Jones being a full-time member of that line, eh?
ReplyDeleteBuddy doesn't get much love in these parts. Considering he pulls down all of 11% of the cap hit of the line, I think he's been holding his own not too bad. Agreed he is the third best player on the line, but at $6.25 / $5.5 / $1.5, I don't know how folks could expect otherwise.
His cap hit doesn't matter.
I think that 89,23,58 would all be an upgrade over him on that line.
23 and 58 have less of a cap hit and would be more effective.
He's a mess in his own zone.
spOILer - one could suggest that a total fear of taxes has also impacted those American cities. I know you loath government in general, but your understanding of economics is right out of the simple neoclassical theories that were popular in eocnomics departments in the 1980s.
ReplyDeleteThe rise of new institutional economics which recognizes transaction costs, boundedly rational agents, and various forms of market failure give pretty strong evidence that there is a role for government.
The 'most economic textbooks' you are talking about have clearly been re-written since you and Ron Paul went to school, particularly at the advanced levels where you get to the stuff beyond basic supply and demand.
That is not to suggest that governments don't need to be cautious. Wasting money is always a bad thing, regardless of whether it is done by private decision makers or public decision makers.
With that said, your argument about American cities is flawed. As noted, the vast majority of American cities in trouble face more of a revenue problem than they do a spending problem. This is also true at the state level. When governments cannot afford to pay their police or keep the streetlights on and tax rates at all levels of government in most states are at their lowest rates in about a century, focusing only on spending is a weak argument.
The 'government is bad' argument was much much stronger in 1980 when the majority of western governments were highly involved in the economy, when they ignored the concepts of individual incentive (i.e. paying people 70% of their wage for more than a year for unemployment in a booming economy), and when there was little understanding of government caused market failure.
However, in the USA, the cutting of public education and infrastructure, and the fear of any intervention into health care (an irregular market prone to massive market failure) has been tremendously costly. This, along with spending problems (i.e. War), has placed the USA in a very difficult position. The workforce is borderline illiterate and is unable to compete on a global scale. Countries like Germany have done a better job in developing a highly competitive workforce at the front end of innovation and productivity. Much of this involved government coordination.
Good governance is far more important than the actual 'size' of government.
With the arena project, the situation is made more complex by the insanity of public funding for sports teams. Overall this is a bad policy (across North America), but for a single city that is embedded in the system, it comes down to what the public holds as valuable. It also comes down to what the best deal possible in the current market is (and this may well not be it). You cannot impose simple neoclassical arguments without considering context. Katz and the millionaire hockey players will all be subsidized by the public in this deal. That sucks and is stupid, but that is the North American NHL market. Don Iveson may be correct in that this situation may be about to collapse which would mean that Edmonton invested in this just prior to shift away from public subsidies for sports teams. This would be unfortunate, but the small amount of money involved makes it relatively insignificant.
The point is, it is more complex than you were led to understand in your econ 101/102 classes.
For me, the $30-40 in taxes each year that my household will have to contribute over the next 35 years is pretty much meaningless, so I for one want them to go ahead with it instead of renegotiating for another 3 years to save my household $5-10 a year.
Woodguy is right - you can love Jones all you want for being a hard worker, but if you watch him, he is lost and erratic in his own zone.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, he has been part of a good penalty kill and if that continues, he should earn some respect. I don't suspect it will continue though - unless I am missing something when I watch him (perhaps his erratic behavior confuses the opposition?)
Best thing about that pic isn't the hockey player - it's the fans - men wearing suits.
ReplyDeleteOh riiight - so much more stylish to see fat Mexican women stuffing nachos in their flatulent mouths, with the other fans wearing their pathetic fanboy home team jerseys, lol.
PS: I've been to the pub already, I'm half pissed, and in a mood to go the whole hog.
However, he's a placeholder until either Hemsky gets back, OR Renney decides to move Gagner up to 2RW.
ReplyDeleteWhy would we start either of those two 70% of the time in the D zone?
He's a mess in his own zone.
ReplyDelete@WG: So now you are in the "seen him bad" camp, while I will resort to advanced stats. Here's two for Jones, both at evens:
ZoneStart: 36.0%, second toughest on Oilers
Shots Against/60: 20.4, second best on Oilers
I'm not sure I entirely understand it myself, but to this point the results are there. Agree with HBomb that he's just a placeholder in the top six, but buddy has managed to hold his own pretty good to this point.
He's lost in his own zone but is good on the penalty kill?
ReplyDeleteWoodguy: When you say 58, I assume you are referring to "Harski" (56)?
ReplyDeleteI like Jeff Petry just fine, but to expect him to play RW with Smyth and Horcoff when he's been brought up as a defenseman, well, that's a stretch. ;)
(Insert "I bet he'd do better than Ryan Jones" joke here)
@WG: So now you are in the "seen him bad" camp, while I will resort to advanced stats. Here's two for Jones, both at evens:
ReplyDeleteZoneStart: 36.0%, second toughest on Oilers
Shots Against/60: 20.4, second best on Oilers
I'm not sure I entirely understand it myself, but to this point the results are there. Agree with HBomb that he's just a placeholder in the top six, but buddy has managed to hold his own pretty good to this point.
Bruce,
Quit moving the goalposts.
I'm not using advanced stats? Really?
You know as well as anyone that every single Oiler was worse off in terms of Scoring Chances with him last year other than 91.
All but one. WAS. WORSE. WITH. HIM. ON. THE. ICE.
What's happening this year?
10 and 94 are better off without him than with him in terms of scoring chances.
Big freaking surprise.
You could put a Stortini on the ice with 94 and 10 and he would be putting up 28's numbers.
Christ Bruce, you'd put up similar numbers as 28, but I'd bet you'd know which areas of the ice to patrol in the Dzone.
Agree that he's doing well on the PK.
ReplyDelete(Insert "I bet he'd do better than Ryan Jones" joke here)
Oh, its not a joke.
:D
Yes, meant 56.
He's lost in his own zone but is good on the penalty kill?
ReplyDeleteSeems to know the PK system, but freelances 5v5.
I really don't hate the guy, but when you have an NHL team you get to dress only 20 players.
ReplyDeleteYou have the entire world to pick players from and you get to dress 20.
Not working your ass off to make sure you have the best 20 you can is a disaster.
That's why I hate the whole energy line/4th line throw away players idea.
No player on a 20 man roster should be a throw away, and its a GM's job to optimize it.
Its nice to see Jones isn't drowning there, but he's not optimal either.
It's a big day in the arena debate, all creatures great and small will be talking all day before council makes a decision. I gave my views here and like you will wait for the decision. I don't think this is going to be a good day for Oiler fans.
ReplyDeleteThe decision won't be until tomorrow (Wed) as they have to listen to 100 people today.
I don't get the negativity LT. By my count, the village idiot, Caterina (who would vote against anything not on the Northlands site), and then Diotte and Iveson are the only ones likely to vote against it. City council buying the land last week was either an attempt to buy more time (Katz's deadline was predicated on the options lapsing) or a sign its a go. I don't see tomorrow being a bad day at all (although I did email my councillor just in case).
Spoiler,
This notion that government should not invest in things is a common refrain but ignores reality. In Edmonton we have investted in the Indy, Capital Ex, field turf at Commonwealth, overpasses, and rec centers.
The overpass to South Edmonton Common does nothing but support the developer and a bunch of multinatioonal retail establishments. It was built so people wouldn't have to wait an extra 10 minutes to buy their IKEA grommets. A rec centre costs $200 million. Isn't there an argument that a new downtown development for the Oilers would add more to the City than a rec center?
You say Katz can just build it himself. Perhaps. But he is not going to. What do you do then?
Bruce - Seen him bad this year and last. Stats last year were not friendly. Stats this year with very small sample size have been friendly.
ReplyDeleteI hope he proves me and WG wrong and that we are missing the genius of Ryan Jones' defensive strategies, but I suspect that things will level off over the season... we will see.
Khabibulin starts - Per twitterverse
ReplyDeletebook¡e said...
ReplyDeletespOILer - one could suggest that a total fear of taxes has also impacted those American cities
No, one could not. All of these cities have property tax revenue programs in place comparable to our own. Except of course where developers have negotiated no property tax deals in return for large projects like arenas.
I know you loath government in general, but your understanding of economics is right out of the simple neoclassical theories that were popular in eocnomics departments in the 1980s.
No my understanding is not. It has nothing to do with neo-classical theories of economics and if you knew anything about the subject you would know that. Neo-classical Econ by the way is still quite popular in Economics departments all round the world.
I work in Finance. I read macro-economics every day, and a lot of it would be considered cutting edge.
The rise of new institutional economics which recognizes transaction costs, boundedly rational agents, and various forms of market failure give pretty strong evidence that there is a role for government.
No, they are a self-supporting circular argument--a new justification for Keynesian practices which have repeatedly been proven in the real world to not work. They are merely an extension and reiteration of Classical and Neo-Classical Theory.
The 'most economic textbooks' you are talking about have clearly been re-written since you and Ron Paul went to school, particularly at the advanced levels where you get to the stuff beyond basic supply and demand.
Nice putdown. Is that how you make your arguments? It's clear you have no idea what textbooks or economic thought I'm talking about. Yet it is clear to you that my books are outdated and basic. Yeah right. You're talking out of your ass here.
That is not to suggest that governments don't need to be cautious. Wasting money is always a bad thing, regardless of whether it is done by private decision makers or public decision makers.
If you can't tell the difference between the two and the consequences thereof, I'm thinking Econ is not your gig.
With that said, your argument about American cities is flawed. As noted, the vast majority of American cities in trouble face more of a revenue problem than they do a spending problem. This is also true at the state level. When governments cannot afford to pay their police or keep the streetlights on and tax rates at all levels of government in most states are at their lowest rates in about a century, focusing only on spending is a weak argument.
Since we are only discussing municipalities and mill rates, I'm not sure why you would include all the other levels of government here, unless it is either to obfuscate the issue or to apply something that may appear to be true for one level of government to another level.
Nor does this even enter into the general issues with taxation and how it negatively affects the economy (and thus how important it is to limit it).
As the only relevant bit to your point is mill rates, if you would care to back up your claim that the mill rates of the municipalities that are struggling are at historic lows with some documentation, please do so. I have never seen such a document, and thus regard your claim as unsubstantiated.
You go on to discuss even more stuff that has nothing to do with municipalities and their own spending and revenue collection, but I'm going to leave them alone and hope the straw man nature of these arguments are obvious to everyone. I'm far too busy at work today to address these irrelevant issues.
spOIL - BAM! Nicely done.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I was going to raise about your original argument was that if a proper economic environment existed where Katz could build what he wanted where he bought, then your alternative scenario would be more valid. I'm not justifying what is going on, but sadly someone like Katz is not allowed to operate as he should be able to with regard to something like an arena.
spOILer - Suggesting that Institutional Economics is little more than justification for Keynesian practices fully demonstrates that you don't know what institutional economics is, nor the influence of it in contemporary economics. It is not so much displacing the neoclassical econ of the past century, but rather is being integrated into it.
ReplyDeleteAnyway - as with you, I have limited time and work to do.
Gentlemen,
ReplyDeleteReally appreciate the debate going on here. I'm not someone who knows much beyond the basics of economics, but I am really enjoying the discussion on here, and would really hope that those of you with background will continue to discuss the ideas.
Hopefully with as little insults and penis-measuring as possible. I like the ideas and arguments, and can do without the rest.
Book;e, I really appreciate the clarity and direction of your posts. They were very clear and presented me with a deeper understanding of how you understand this proposal and its impacts, as well as how it fits into one narrative of municipalities and legacy projects in North America. Thank you.
spOILer, I understand that you deal with economics professionally, so I would really like to better understand why you are so strongly opposed to the development with the City taking on the lions share of the debt to finance the project. Based on the arguments that one city councillor puts forward I can certainly see what this deal would be an improvement over paying the Katz/Northlands 5M/year to keep the team here. Would you please explain a little more why you feel this is not the case? I was really hoping in your rebuttal to book;e that you would present some counter-arguments to help a layman like me better understand where you are coming from.
Bruce: Really liking the quips about the photos and the research into them. Where are you finding this stuff?
Henti: Japanese softcore comics that do not quite qualify as hentai.
Also, if you haven't done so already, send city council your thoughts about the arena.
ReplyDeleteCouncillors@edmonton.ca
So spOILer would you prefer to see the City spend say $200M to renovate and expand the Coliseum. We all know the City won't do that.
ReplyDeleteOr do you just want the Oilers to leave? Then we would not have this blog and you would have to change your handle (if you continue to be a fan of the team which would be in Hamilton or Quebec City).
For a seeming intelligent guy, I don't understand the small thinking or why a supposed fan does not want a new arena. It's like being against fluoridated water (c. 1962) or Omniplex (c. 1970).
Jones is a chaos player, for sure. By no means is that all a bad thing.
ReplyDeleteQuit moving the goalposts. I'm not using advanced stats? Really?
WG: Well I was responding to your quoted comment. I personally value "seen him good/bad" quite a bit, in fact I'm in the Lee school of Quantitative + Qualitative being best. But when a point is advanced on one side of the equation, I tend to look at the other, which is all I was doing there. No offence intended, my good man. In fact I agree with you that it looks like he's all over the place, but his numbers say he is doing fine. So far.
That said, you have advanced one advanced stat consistently w.r.t. Jones, namely (last season's) on-ice scoring chances. I agree that one is pretty important but it's not the be-all and end-all. Gives no credit for finishing ability, for one thing.
By my count Dennis has Jones at +21/-23 at evens so far in '11-12, not bad for a fourth liner thrust into a top six role. His shots rate is a positive, +22.9/-20.4, pretty good given the nature of the assignment.
Is he leaning on Horc and Smytty? Of course, they're both hella hockey players. Is he the third best player on his line? Obviously; see payroll for details. Has the line managed to keep its head above water while he fills in for Hemsky? Yes it has.
He was signed to be a fourth-line/PK guy who could step up occasionally, and so far he's delivered on that. Give the guy a little credit for that is all I'm saying. He may be doing it with smoke & mirrors, but somehow the job has gotten done to a reasonanly acceptable level.
I think most fans would like a new arena.
ReplyDeleteI think what many fans don't like is the fact that a billionaire is using veiled threats and flawed economic logic to get hundreds of millions of public money to build him an arena from which he will get most (all) revenues.
The deal being proposed is beyond outstanding for Katz, he basically pays 3.5 million a year with the city paying him 2 million a year to market itself to its own citizens, is that right? He's not even investing any money up front. And guaranteed the arena will run over 450 million. When is the last time any construction project came in under budget?
It really doesn't matter to me. I don't live in Edmonton and there's enough corruption and graft here in Ontario to do me, thanks very much. I just find the whole Katz group's behaviour in this process to be pretty poor and, on principle, I don't think the general public should be footing pretty well the entire bill.
Then again who knows. I was out with a buddy the other day and he had no problem with the fact that US banks put the world economy in the ditch or that the guys running said banks were pulling down huge coin while millions of regular folks were put out of work.
Way of the world I guess. I just don't get it.
Bruce: Really liking the quips about the photos and the research into them. Where are you finding this stuff?
ReplyDelete@Jordan: I'm old. In fact I'm so-o-o fucking old that I actually remember the Original Six. Sad truth is I remember many details from that halcyon age better than I do what I had for breakfast.
Which reminds me, I think I forgot to eat breakfast!
And back to hockey I'm not a huge Jones guy but yes he deserves credit for what he has done this year so far. No complaints at all from this quarter.
ReplyDeleteFun fact du jour: currently, the Oilers are 9th in the league in faceoff percentage, at 50.9% collectively.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, dead last? Anaheim at 44.8%.
(Insert Cogliano joke here)
ilicker: What I do before...nah, I'll stop there, this is a G-rated blog.
BD (and others): the Katz negotiating tactic reflects the current market for professional sports teams in the NHL and NBA right now. There are sub-optimal markets (such as Oklahoma City) willing to subsidize professional sports either through publically-funded arena construction (in whole or in part), operational subsidies or other arrangements (such as "advertising" deals). As much as I am sympathetic to spOILer's argument that governments shouldn't be subsidizing pro sports teams, taking such a puritanical stand will have consequences based upon the current market conditions. Edmonton may be a good hockey market, but in a couple years, Quebec City may be willing to offer a modern arena for cheap-to-no rent, based on public subsidies. Is the Edmonton market better than that arrangement? Unfortunately not. Given this reality, the current arrangement on offer is a pretty reasonable bet, especially with the possible development benefits that may be accrued.
ReplyDeleteOh, one last thing: as I understand it, the contract is being structured so that the developer/contractor will assume all cost overruns. While the downside of this system is that you don't get competitive bidding to push the price much below the $450M budget, there is significant (but not complete) protection against cost overruns.
Bruce,
ReplyDeleteIts all good brother.
I have seriously painful back/knee thing going on today and I'm bitchy.
I agree he's playing above his head and not drowing, but I think you could say that about any player on the roster (and some in the AHL) if they were put in his spot.
Maybe its becuase I've taken to watching him closely every time he's on the ice and I'm seeing all the warts.
It happens when I watch Barker too. I really want to like both players, but I just can't with what I'm seeing.
I also believe SC data to be as near the holy grail of hockey stats as we have when taken into context with QC and QT, so I'm pretty biased there.
Cactus...
ReplyDeleteGood points on the competition for hosting a sports team.
However there are plenty of struggling teams available. No shortage of them. Oilers aren't struggling. From the pov of demand and supply, the City of Edmonton has hand in this relationship.
And that's aside from the point that such extortion is not a good reason for this municipality to engage in the same behaviour. It's the equivalent of jumping off a cliff because everyone else is doing so.
I love the Oilers but I used to Live for the Expos so I've seen my favourite team move and I know how it feels to be without something that was a huge part of your life.
ReplyDeleteCould public money have helped save the Expos? Yeah for sure. Do I wish it would have happened? No, I can't say that I do.
So, there's that big issue to consider but with Katz there's something else: he's using the fan's passion as leverage to get an unbelievable deal. Does that bother anyone else? I'm not saying that owners shouldn't be allowed to make a deal but this narrative of Katz as the passionate Oilers fan who's mostly interested in the success of the Oilers is one that should be retired.
spOILer a reasonable argument, but I'll add a couple of contentions:
ReplyDelete-From a PR standpoint, I think Katz's team needs a great deal of improvement. However, from a negotiating standpoint, they've done a reasonable job. I don't think it's extortion to set deadlines or outline the other options (such as relocation) - that's just good business. It's up to the other party (the City) to determine the best response to these tactics. Hence, I must object to the heated rhetoric (certainly not just from you).
-While there is no shortage of struggling teams, none of them seem to be in a hurry to move. Part of this is because of excessive public subsidies (I'll start and end my evidence with the Coyotes and the city of Glendale, AZ). Regardless of the reasons, communities, owners and the NHL would rather see years of losses before even contemplating relocation. Winnipeg's been ready to host an NHL team for 4-5 years, yet only this year did a failing American team finally move. Thus, playing hardball and refusing to make a public contribution is not necessarily going to be remedied by the strong fundamentals of the Edmonton hockey market. Sadly, this isn't a pure calculation of profit maximization (Edmonton would be in great shape, otherwise).
Thus, assuming the economic and social benefits of having an NHL team in Edmonton (and specifically downtown) are signficant enough, putting in some public money seems like a reasonable investment. Of course, specifically calculating said benefits has been generally avoided by both sides, making this an exercise in hypotheticals.
It really doesn't matter to me. I don't live in Edmonton and there's enough corruption and graft here in Ontario to do me, thanks very much. I just find the whole Katz group's behaviour in this process to be pretty poor and, on principle, I don't think the general public should be footing pretty well the entire bill.
ReplyDeleteI live in BC, and believe me the outcry over the Olympics is still heard to this day. Do most people in BC feel that the two week party for Vancouver and Whistler worth scrapping the rest of the province (Where the $$$ are)? Hell no, not even one bit. There are little evidences here and there such as nice buildings built in the name of 2010 Legacy, but the reality is that there aren't any jobs attached to those buildings that one would consider real sustainable economic growth.
The Katz group is preferring to live in the golden age of sports marketing that was the decade of the 90's. The 90's saw growth that was never seen before and will never see again in terms of revenues and the growth of players salaries and profit margins for owners. Unfortunately, those days are long gone and I doubt we will ever see them again.
That is something Katz needs to be aware of.
Did I enjoy the 2010 Olympics? Why yes I did, but I merely watched it on TV as thousands of rich folks from countries all over the world were able to enjoy it in person.
I'd like to see the Oilers in a new rink, but I'd also like to see the citizens of Alberta and Edmonton not have to pay for it for the next 30 years.
Dennis: from what I've read, Edmonton's investment is not extraordinary when compared to similar deals in similar markets. If you object to public investment, that's a reasonable and consistent argument, but I question (absent other evidence) whether this is truly an "unbelievable deal" or simply a reflection of market conditions in pro sports.
ReplyDeleteI keep repeating myself everywhere, but I still can't get over the fact that people against the arena deal refuse to frame it as anything other than a purely economic issue.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that economics is the only factor here, maybe not even the most important factor.
In other words, the fact that Katz is getting a good deal does not necessarily mean the deal isn't worth the cost for the city. They don't need to earn an income from it to justify it.
Maybe its becuase I've taken to watching him closely every time he's on the ice and I'm seeing all the warts.
ReplyDeleteIt happens when I watch Barker too. I really want to like both players, but I just can't with what I'm seeing.
Yeah I hear you, Woodguy. Some folks watch Gilbert and Horcoff that way, they can do 9 things right and make 1 mistake and you know which play they're going to focus on.
Now I'm not saying Jones or Barker are anywhere near that kind of good play:bad play ratio, but they are not 0 and 10 either (which was always my own problem with JFJ). If they were Renney wouldn't be giving them the ice time that he is, and/or Oilers would be getting killed while they are out there. If you're a play-the-percentages type you can hate the 40/60 play 100% of the time, but it's gonna work out 40% of the time, and sometimes work out big for the risk-taker.
If you'll permit an imperfect analogy to another sport, it's a little bit like comparing the possession receiver against the big-play guy. If you're the type of fan who likes moving the chains and controlling the clock you're gonna like the possession guy more. But there are times the team needs a spark, and a 30-yard gain out of nowhere can provide it.
Of course if buddy gets open for six and drops the pigskin, then by all means shit all over him. :)
Cactus - I don't blame them for playing hardball in negotiations, I would expect as much. Its real money and concessions they want after all.
ReplyDeleteFor me its the methodology, LaForge's bullshit and all that. It reflects poorly on them imo, although that's neither here nor there I guess.
Add to that the fact that many proponents of the arena don't really have any argument (and I am definitely not talking about yourself here) other than THE OILERS WILL LEAVE or GIVE KATZ WHAT HE WANTS, well that kind of makes me mental. There's just a lack of critical thought from a lot of quarters.
Anyhow I don't blame Katz for playing hardball. On principle I'm just against giving a man with that much money even more money when I pay more than enough taxes as it is and I'm constantly being told that government services need cutting.
Know what I mean?
I can't get too bent out of shape either way. Bigger fish to fry or something like that.
I'm fine with Edm building a no-rent arena for Katz, or however Quebec City is being portrayed. The issue here is that Katz is being given de-facto ownership of the arena, ie. all of the revenues, for stumping up 20% of the budget. I say let the City pay 100% and own the sucker, instead of paying 80% to become the poor cousin in the enterprise. Why the heck does this need to be a partnership? If the building is good for the City, build it, and Katz can invest his money in the neighborhood and spinoffs. Oh yeah, and his franchise may well do alright in the end too.
ReplyDeleteWhy does he need a stake in the arena At All? The shared model complicates everything, and is the only reason this has turned into a circus.
Bruce
ReplyDeleteThanks for your posts. I've found the criticism of Jones on here to be quite frustrating and you've articulated the reasons for that better than I could have.
Hey, how about that JFJ guy. Anaheim was nice enough to call him up to serve (some?) of his suspension. 1 Assist in 4 games for Syracuse.
ReplyDeleteHow about Chorney...What's he up to? Doesn't look like he's played at all.
I keep repeating myself everywhere, but I still can't get over the fact that people against the arena deal refuse to frame it as anything other than a purely economic issue.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that economics is the only factor here, maybe not even the most important factor.
Please re-frame it in a non-economic issue then.
BD: an eminently reasonable position and one that I agree a lot with. I have mixed feelings about this whole business, but much of the nuances and critical thought gets swallowed up by the cacophony of this polarized (and often ignorant) debate. Too often, it seems to come down to the following arguments:
ReplyDeleteAnti-Public Funding: Public money should never, ever be given to anyone with more than $10 because when we do that, all our schools will close and fires are never put out because the Fire Department will be shut down.
Pro-Public Funding: without a brand new arena built by the City and gifted to Katz, the Oilers will move out of town and the city will descend into chaos and mediocrity. The best case scenario ten years following the Oilers departure is Flint, Michigan (the worst case is Mogadishu, Somalia).
Methinks the situation is somewhat more complicated.
Please re-frame it in a non-economic issue then.
ReplyDeleteI've had this conversation too many times to get back into it too heavily, but the question isn't one purely of money to me.
If economic viability was the only deciding factor in city expenditures then 90% of the money a city spends wouldn't get spent.
The question isn't how much will the city benefit economically, it should just be how much will the city benefit.
Year after year cities put money in projects that are not strictly necessary but get done because of their perceived intangible benefits to the city.
I don't know whether there is enough benefit to the city or not to justify the cost. I don't live in Edmonton so I haven't put enough thought into it. I just know that there is more to the decision making process for a city than strictly economic viability.
Isn't there some value to the project simply in the fact that the city is attempting to provide a city that loves hockey a world class facility in which to enjoy hockey played by the best players in the world?
I think most peoples objections stem entirely from who is asking for the money, rather than what the money is for.
Went over to City Hall at 1:30 to spend a bit of my late lunch break watching.
ReplyDeleteAbout 8 scruffy looking guys in the early 20's got up and announced "this is what democracy looks like" over and over before telling everyone they were the 99%.
Its interesting that about 92% of the 99% were likely busy working, unlike these lugnuts.
They promptly pulled out their blackberries as soon as they were kicked out. No doubt paid for by their 1% dads.
Yeah I hear you, Woodguy. Some folks watch Gilbert and Horcoff that way, they can do 9 things right and make 1 mistake and you know which play they're going to focus on.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm not saying Jones or Barker are anywhere near that kind of good play:bad play ratio, but they are not 0 and 10 either (which was always my own problem with JFJ). If they were Renney wouldn't be giving them the ice time that he is, and/or Oilers would be getting killed while they are out there. If you're a play-the-percentages type you can hate the 40/60 play 100% of the time, but it's gonna work out 40% of the time, and sometimes work out big for the risk-taker.
That's a fair statement.
To that end, I will comment on good plays that both Barker and Jones make tonight (i.e. "Jones! Did you see the way he played an entire shift without falling down!! Attgo!")
:D
If you're at the rink tonight Bruce, count the number of times that Barker dinking around with the puck causes the break out to have to circle back and re-form.
Tough to see on the TV.
I promise to try to see the good.
Cactus....
ReplyDeleteUsing the threat of moving the team to extract public concessions so that Katz can make even more money in his other operations is extortion is it not? Am I typifying it incorrectly? Now that said, such hardball tactics are used in negotiations all the time, but here the specific lever being used is the fans' love for the home side. Shouldn't we call a spade a spade and negotiate just as hard in return?
If you're at the rink tonight Bruce, count the number of times that Barker dinking around with the puck causes the break out to have to circle back and re-form.
ReplyDeleteI have notice that Barker's partner has to continually pressure the puck, even if its in Barker's corner. Barker just tends to stand next to the guy in front of the net.
Maybe this is some new defence that PeeWee coaches like me don't understand - or maybe they just don't trust him to venture out of the slot for fear he might get lost.
Gotcha Tiger UG,
ReplyDeleteYou are taking a look at the bigger picture and what one would call "soft costs" that are difficult to measure in a statistical manner.
Don't you know that's dangerous thinking in here? LOL
I see your point though. It would be nice to have a nice rink for the players and maybe just maybe entice a few more of them to come play in Edmonton, instead of passing it up for the incredibly culturally superior place like Landover, MD, ala Michael Nylander.
Holy hell Mason is hurt in CBJ and someone called Allen York is playing. Against DET of course.
ReplyDeleteUsing the threat of moving the team to extract public concessions so that Katz can make even more money in his other operations is extortion is it not? Am I typifying it incorrectly? Now that said, such hardball tactics are used in negotiations all the time, but here the specific lever being used is the fans' love for the home side. Shouldn't we call a spade a spade and negotiate just as hard in return?
ReplyDeleteSwell. We might keep the Oilers and wind up with a new arena in the suburbs or Enoch. Or maybe we put $125 - $200 million to upgrade Rexall for 10 years. Or maybe the Oilers go to Quebec.
In the meantime, the City is in tourmoil for months/ years not know what is going to happen. Investment decisions are made to go elsewhere. Other levels of government find ample reasons to not pony up.
At the end of the day, you wind up grinding Katz so you can save a relatively small amount of money (sorry, but $100 million is nothing). You more than likely are still paying something for a setup you don't really want and lose all kinds of goodwill, morale and perhaps the Oilers along the way.
I'd rather wait to comment on the arena deal after something is actually decided, so going back to the original post:
ReplyDeleteGilbert has played much better in his zone this year. He's making smart first passes, not coughing up the puck as much, not panicking in tough situations and playing a little more physical, with little effect to his offensive game.
There have been a few misplays and botched assignments but certainly in the range of what should be expected from a primarily offensive defenseman.
I hope he keeps it up.
Gilbert's doing what he's always done, but he has more time to do it. Buddy's been working with kids and kooks for 5 years.
ReplyDeleteDucey
ReplyDeleteAhh, I get it. The City isn't supposed to negotiate.
And that paragraph was mostly in response to the heated rhetoric remark.
Context, buddy.
I've always liked Gilbert, but my eye says hes been bringing his game to a higher level this season. Thats not a knock at all against his previous years, its a testament to how goddang good he has been this year. He's being a stud out there imo. Impressing the crap outta me really. Duncan Keith lite.
ReplyDeleteThe trick is to have 77 as your 3rd best defenseman.
Yeah, he's been great so far.
ReplyDeleteSeems to have the instincts to make the right play and the confidence to get it done.
Could be better teammates, a better system, solid coaching or that he grew up a little after last year and really worked this offseason.
Whatever it is, I hope he stays like this.
spOILer: I see where you're coming from and I'm not going to rest on the Ducey reasoning. I feel extortion is an immediate "tit for tat". In this case, extortion would be for the Katz group to say "agree to our terms in their entirety by October 31st or we move the team to Hamilton." Raising the possible option of relocation at a future date if the arena situation cannot be resolved is a pressure tactic, but it lacks the same immediacy. Part of this is due to the ham-handed involvement of Laforge, to be sure, but that isn't the same as extortion.
ReplyDeleteAs for the city's negotiating record, I know it's been framed negatively by several people on the blogosphere, but I don't think they've done a poor job. I would really like to see a critic of this deal put together a piece detailing why this particular deal is bad beyond the fact that the city is putting in any money at all. Again, this is a legitimate position, but if we move past it (based on the reality that virtually all of these projects have some public element), is there legitimate criticisms that can be made of this arrangement? That's the debate I want to have.
By the advanced stats, Jones hasn't been bad this year. By the advanced stats, Khabibulin's been excellent this year.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot to be said for sample size.
I especially like all the hard work Jones has done on his goals. A combination of effort, grit, soft hands and that sixth sense all great scorers have.
ReplyDeleteBut the release was the key.
honest question: Where did the money come from to renovate the stadium?
ReplyDeleteLT with the needle there.
ReplyDeleteNot the needle again
ReplyDeleteI live and pay taxes in Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteI partially own and pay taxes on a business in Edmonton.
It's time for a new arena. Anyone who spends time at Rexall and has spent time in any other arenas see that clearly.
If you don't think that, that's fine, but you also better be driving a 74 Vega because it still serves its function.
What I don't like is this deal.
Let's remember what the two biggest public reasons were for pushing the EIG to sell (other than Katz overpaying for the team)
1) Stauffer writes here that Katz will build a new rink at the UofA for the Bears and for the Oilers to practice in.
-I remember Bob hammering on this point quite a bit.
-There is no UofA rink and its never talked about anymore
2) Katz had $200MM to kick start new arena. $100MM for the building, $100MM for surrounding development.
I can't find Jones' article, but Tyler refers to it here.
It was commonly agreed that Katz has the $$$ to partially finance a new building and the EIG didn't.
Now its a NO MONEY DOWN!!! $3.5MM/yr for the 1st 10 year arena deal. (Katz paid more last year for Souray to play in Hershey, pretty good terms for an arena)
I wonder if the EIG would have sold if they could have got terms like this on a new arena?
So that leaves us with the $100MM to start the development around the arena.
There are currently no contracts in place that would guarantee Katz actually invest this money.
There are also no contracts in place to guarantee city debt payments with arena revenues.
Katz re-negged on his two main thrusts for buying the team, why is he being trusted to live up to other terms that are not guaranteed with a contract?
I wouldn't trust him.
I wonder if he put up any actually $$ for the Oilers, or if that was all bank $$?
Buy a NHL team and get 11/12 months revenue on a new rink all bought with promises and using the cash flows of those business.
I guess that's why he consolidated the Canadian retail pharmacy business before others.
Hell of a piece of business.
As a taxpayer I'd like some guarantees please.
By the advanced stats, Jones hasn't been bad this year. By the advanced stats, Khabibulin's been excellent this year.
ReplyDeleteNot all of them.
Both 10 and 94 have a better Scoring Chance ratio without him than with him.
Both 10 and 94 have a better Scoring Chance ratio without him than with him.
ReplyDeleteThat just says that their other linemates have been better than Jones - it's not, in and of itself, an indictment of Jones.
(Now, every player on the team being better without him than with him, on the other hand...)
I especially like all the hard work Jones has done on his goals. A combination of effort, grit, soft hands and that sixth sense all great scorers have.
ReplyDeleteBut the release was the key.
On his first goal, he was good on the forecheck then went straight to the net on the turn over that he helped cause.
That's not a terribly lucky sequence, but good work.
Lordy, I'm defending 28. Bruce has infected me with something.
@WG,
ReplyDeleteDefinitely you're one of my favs here at LT... That being said, you gotta let the Jones thing go for your own health man :p
I don't like Jones so much either though I will give him Bruce's place holder credit thus far.
It's just not worth a Tractorian level Horcoff rant, is it? :) I'm sure he's just placeholding for Hemsky and the universe will correct itself when Hemsky's back...
Fuck the EIG.
ReplyDeleteKatz might not be a choirboy, but at least he's got the Oilers a decent GM, and that GM has set up a decent development system.
*waits for "Steve Smith" to counter with impeccable yet occasionally flawed logical retort*
I like Jones, and I like Barker.
ReplyDeleteBoth look like they're not easily intimidated...hell...neither of them looks bright enough to know what intimidation means.
*waits for "Steve Smith" to counter with impeccable yet occasionally flawed logical retort*
ReplyDeleteAt least one of those words does not mean what you think it means.
Steve baby, I've forgotten more about the English language than you will ever know.
ReplyDelete(To say nothing of "decent".)
ReplyDeleteI can't understand how anyone has a problem with anyone protesting the influence of big business.
ReplyDeleteSure, those kids had Blackberries but big fucking deal; those things aren't really all that expensive and kids working shitty jobs could certainly afford them.
Hey, I'm too comfortable and jaded to get out and protest but I've got all the time in the world for the people who are doing so.
Back to the Oilers and as for 77, I'd say he had a helluva couple of years in '08 and '09 too. He's playing a bit more physical but he's had years being effective without playing physical as well.
Tractorian level Horcoff rant,
ReplyDeleteWow.
Had no idea I was that off the rails.
Thanks.
I'm sure that somewhere in NHL history one of my favorites was as worthy as Ryan Jones.
ReplyDeleteAnd I do think his scoring percentage in college was kind of a tell for him as a pro.
That said, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that there are other players who would perform as well or better on that line.
How many times have these professionals mention contract year for Khabi? Three times so far this year by my count.
ReplyDeleteWTF Lowetide, just take a butcher's at that pic you posted...no plexiglass(fan protection), the fans wearing shirts and ties, not a single one of them looks fat, the look of free men being entertained instead of today's molycoddled looking neo-serf fanboys.
ReplyDeleteIn a couple of weeks we're all going to have to put up with the platitudes of that WW2 generation's sacrifice...the same one that got totally co-opted by their spoiled children, lol.
Just getting my shots in early.
LT... Allen York CBJ is a Wetaskiwin boy. I see he started but Mason is in now for some reason. 3-1 CBJ as I send this.
ReplyDeletestreaming link?
ReplyDeletethanks!
"Had no idea I was that off the rails."
ReplyDeleteYou are on the rails.
Jones was a very poor player and his contract a mess. It's possible he's improved his game. (He's not that old.) Time will tell.
I would love to be a fan of his. If he can PK and play protected minutes or 4th line minutes reasonably well, he's fine.
http://www.seeon.tv/view/21017/
ReplyDeleteWhite jerseys at home? Oh man, that takes me back...
ReplyDeleteGags is really fighting the puck tonight.
ReplyDeleteThe kid line have almost scored 3 times already.
25 pasting Kesler is something I can get accustomed to.
they should keep taking out their own net.
ReplyDeleteAh good, looks like Whitney caught another rut. FFS
ReplyDeleteWhitney looks like he caught another rut.
ReplyDeleteFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCKK
there goes whitney's season
ReplyDeleteBruce: Your psychological instincts are correct: negatives are absorbed five to ten times more intensely than positives. It's part of the loss aversion circuit. Successful spousal unions are reported to have a ratio of at least six compliments to every zinger. That's the Mendoza line for couch to porch.
ReplyDeleteFrom Updated: Political hopefuls wade into downtown arena debate at City Hall
"Arenas generally attract parking lots and bars," she said. In that city, the Forum did not bring vibrancy to the area. Only when Dawson College moved in did you regularly get life on the street.
I lived in Montreal for a couple of years in the early 1990s. There was no glow around the Forum except on game night. Can't say I recall any large parking lots, but Montreal has a good tube and my memory isn't what it used to be. Yeah Bruce, I cherish recollecting my breakfast while I still have it. Won't be long now before the white-haired plunge. I can already hear the ratchets changing their clink as I crest for the final descent.
On the economic argument, any arena deal completed prior to the 2008 melt-down should not be considered a valid baseline in the post-apocalyptic reality.
Batman's threats to move the team are not terribly credible. Bettman would flip (totally in private). Edmonton is not the biggest market, but it's sitting in the blue collar catchment of one of the best things going: the tar sands. Short of a Kyoto Ultimatum, Edmonton hails from the Harper-like economic precinct of bend-but-don't-break and should continue to do so for the next thirty years. Just what Bettman needs is to see this team airlifted to a city of wind-blown economic fortune.
One needs to bear in mind that if the economic screws continue to tighten, professional sports are a luxury and not a necessity.
The upside of the counsellors calling this bluff (if they have the nerve to do so) is that Gilbert will receive less negative attention for the next 18 months.
In AA, one of the cardinal rules is not to out yourself, since anyone who reverts to their addiction under public scrutiny discredits the organization. If Katz airlifts this team to a city that finds itself backed up against the financial wall five years from now, it will be a long time before the NHL sees another arena built on public funds.
Hamilton fits the bill as a city where I don't think things could go embarrassingly south. The political intrigue necessary to squish a second team into the golden horseshoe boggles the mind. How do you bribe God? He's already got box seats.
In theory, the NHL could decide to burn Edmonton in effigy as a warning to any other upstart location that faces down hardball. The potential downside to present league ownership if that strategy backfires could be monumental. Wearing my Bruce Bueno de Mesquita hat, I'm pretty sure Katz and the league would flinch and return to the table in Edmonton.
There are bigger markets, but many of the bigger markets have a lot more competition for entertainment dollars, and the fan base only grows more fickle over time. The big leagues aren't that keen on admitting this.
But the reality is that the counsellors will be judged against the tribulations of Winnipeg rather than foresight about the evolution of major league power structures. I tend to assume that perception wins, so I've always thought this deal would work itself to a successful conclusion.
There's a part of me that thinks we have too much celebrity worship built into our human makeup in the first place. How much of the sixty million dollar annual payroll sticks around? I'm sure there are other civic investments where more of the money in play sticks around.
When it comes to pride, is it better to lease or own? Still, a little part of my heart would die.
Well we had Whitney long enough this year.
ReplyDeleteLooks like a weird knee or high ankle strain.
ReplyDeleteSamwise didn't look too bad on that sequence. It's only his second game of the season is it not?
ReplyDeletePaarjarvi looks like he has no clue what to do with the puck.
ReplyDeleteLooks like he caught a peice of Potter going by for that loose puck. It was his right ankle, is that the one that has been the problem?
ReplyDeleteI certainly hope Whitney is ok. That has got to be tough on a guy's disposition - to be laid-up 9 months outta the year.
ReplyDeleteI'd give Whitney Hemsky's ankles and Hemsky Whitney's shoulders.
ReplyDeleteprous - our defense without Whitney holding the fort 10 minutes a game.
Way too cute on offense so far.
ReplyDeleteTake a shot and test Luongo early.
Whew. Looks like Whitney is OK.
ReplyDeleteGangrene will set in and they'll have to amputate halfway through the second.
ReplyDeleteExcellent first period by the boys.
ReplyDeleteGood hitting from Eager, and MPS making good if not great space for himself.
Dangerous PP? WTF the Oilers???
Good team defence.
Poor Whitney/Hemsky = injury machines! I stuck their names together and came up with...Whisky.
Love how they're outworking those heretic Canucks.
You are on the rails.
ReplyDeleteJones was a very poor player and his contract a mess. It's possible he's improved his game. (He's not that old.) Time will tell.
Oh, I know I'm correct, I'm just concerned I'm acting obsessed.
I re-checked the thread and see that Bruce baited me into it.
If hid defenders agree that he's a place holder then 94-10-x is sufficient.
Ha!
Apparently 6 was back on the bench at the end of the period. Hope he can still skate.
Missed most of the first taking care of my 2.5 year old girl.
Did I miss much?
No, it was a pedestrian first period. I think both teams have some jump, should be interesting.
ReplyDeleteOne thing to watch for is the Canucks forecheck. Oilers D had that deer in the headlights look a few times, that will lead to goals against.
Thats funny, I missed the first looking after my 3 and a 1/3 girl. I also think Jones has some glaring weaknesses. Do you like aged rum, apalasian dulsimers, and dread zeppelin?
ReplyDeleteWhen the 30th place Oilers manage to contain the SC finalists for a 0-0 period, I'll take that every time.
ReplyDelete0-0 = moral victory.
How quickly we forget Nilsson/POS/thecaptainethenmoreau style clusterfuck hockey.
Eberle with a wicked wrista!
ReplyDeleteEat It John Garrett!
ReplyDeleteAll because RNH created a turnover at the blue line.
ReplyDeleteSend him out....
Well that was a fine snipe by perfect.
ReplyDeleteThat's not a penalty
ReplyDeleteGift number one to Vancouver
Horseshit call!!
ReplyDeleteCorey Potter giveth, Corey Potter taketh away.
ReplyDeleteShanahan has the refs as intimidated as the players.
ReplyDeleteWhat a difference a year makes.
ReplyDeleteI don't poop my pants fearing a penalty kill
Horcs!
ReplyDeleteNow dont sit back and give it away
Nice period so far for the Underdogs. 3-0.
ReplyDeleteLOU!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteKeep em coming!
ReplyDeleteEager do your job and run a sedin now
ReplyDeleteShould be interesting to see how Eager conducts himself after that Edler hit on Hall.
ReplyDeleteDid Hall even touch the puck? I know it was kind of going out of the zone in his area but...
ReplyDeleteI don't think that anyone on the bench had to tell Eager to get on the ice while Hall was coming back to the bench. I like that about Eager already, he knows his role and he isn't waiting for the other team's nuclear deterrent to make an appearance.
ReplyDeleteHall took a clean hit there but it was surely a thump. Oilers need to be smart now.
ReplyDeleteWell apparently there is the answer.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy what did I tell you...Oilers are going to run some team out of the rink it just might be tonight.
ReplyDeletethis is about to be a goon session.
ReplyDeletebook it.
edler is dead meat.
this is about to be a goon session.
ReplyDeletebook it.
edler is dead meat.
How is that not a head shot? Isn't that the kind of hit the league is trying to rid themselves of?
ReplyDeletePetrell is an absolute demon on the PK. Give Tambo some credit for that find
ReplyDeleteIt's not really a dirty hit but it's not really a hockey play either. Sort of thing you want your guys to do to the other guys best players.
ReplyDeleteI'd Kharlamov a Sedin but people frown on that sort of thing these days.
Cody Hodgson does absolutely nothing for me. I'm sure it's a case of "saw him bad" but this guy doesn't look like an NHLer to me. Maybe it's one of those situations where a change of scenery would fix him.
ReplyDeleteThat used to be a legal hit. It might still be on the borderline but that kind of hit is going the way of the dodo. The upward explosion through the head is what makes it questionable in my mind.
ReplyDeleteI know my Oilers glasses are on a bit. Don't like that hit one bit though.
Am I allowed to comment on 28's defensive positioning on that goal?
ReplyDeleteFuck me.
ReplyDeleteWay to jinx it pboy
ReplyDeleteIs he supposed to chase the puck into the LW'ers defensive zone and leave his check alone?
ReplyDeleteLooks like Hall had a bit of a nose bleed which implies some head trauma and makes me worry a bit about the potential for a concussion.
ReplyDeleteHall sure steps it up when he gets run though.
Smarmy: I believe they noted the nosebleed (maybe bloody lip?) was from a highstick he took off of the faceoff previous to the hit.
ReplyDelete28's position on that goal was brutal.
ReplyDeleteSmarmy Boss: they showed him with his fingers in/around his nose for a while - is this what you're talking about? He also has a cut on his lip so maybe that's where you're seeing blood.
ReplyDeleteEither way, I don't think his nose is what is bleeding/hurt.
It would be nice to get some insurance here.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind seeing Smyth in front of the net on the 1st PP unit with the kids.
ReplyDelete4 did a very good job on his goal dishing the puck to the open guy when two Dmen converged on him.
ReplyDeleteI'm terribly sorry guys, but I really have to go. Hopefully you will keep the lead until the end of the game so the Oilers go 4-2-2 and further silence this outrageous Cam Barker hatred.
ReplyDeleteStupid Canucks.
Horcoff is on the first power play unit to win the draw.
ReplyDeleteSmyth stationary in front of the net won't really help the kid line power play which relies on motion of all three guys. And Smyth would take away the ability of Eberle to sneak into that zone by clogging it up.
The Hemsky-style stationary power play is dead.
The Pronger-Hemsky-Smyth power play was only mediocre, right in the middle of the pack in the league about 15th.
Oilers are freewheeling tonight like the olden days, but that Canuck blue is pretty strong.
ReplyDeleteOilers should be better than 50-50 to win this but it sure as hell isn't over.
I sure hope the second half of this period doesn't turn into a 10 minute fire drill in the defensive end chasing the Sedins and/or Kesler.
ReplyDeleteI think the first 5 minutes of this period will be a lot about the Canucks.
ReplyDeleteRyan Whitney, making Rick DiPietro look like a veritable iron man.
ReplyDeleteOh good, this again.
ReplyDeleteBig PK coming up here, important moment in the game.
ReplyDeleteUnder the category of 'what would the Moose do?', would anyone take issue with Hall drilling Edler with 3 minutes left in this game?
ReplyDeleteOilers PK is just soo good right now.
ReplyDeleteTerrific save by NK too.
ReplyDelete35 doesn't come anywhere near that puck last year.
ReplyDeleteWell done.
Burrows breaking in 1 on 1 vs Sutton.
ReplyDeleteCover your eyes and cross your fingers.
Khabi has looked as good as he's ever been. Hopefully it lasts. That was sick backside recovery there.
ReplyDeleteThis team just comes across as much improved from last year's team; if only because they actually have the effort and skill to pull off a lot.
ReplyDeleteThe PK, Smid and Gilbert have been phenomenal this season.
I'll have to check the TOI after the game, but by my eye, the 4th line seems to be getting plenty of time in this one.
ReplyDeleteDefense is starting to get shaky.
ReplyDeleteBut again, that's 28's man
77 spun himslef around a bit and lost his mark.
ReplyDeleteAm I allowed to say 28 was behind Burrows doing fuck all?
Surely others see this right?
All I see is a 18 goals, a beautiful head of hair and a winning personality.
ReplyDelete:)
I sure wish this game was in the books as a win.
ReplyDeleteWG:
ReplyDeleteIf the coaching staff is paying attention and not playing favs...Jones sits on Thursday.
Eberle had a tough angle and not much to shoot at, but that was still a hell of a grab there.
ReplyDeleteThat was a wonderful play by the kids and an even better save by Schneider.
ReplyDeleteWow, unreal save by Schneider.
ReplyDeleteThose kids are pretty good with the puck.
Sorry Wolfie,
ReplyDeleteI just feel like I've seen this movie before.
Do the kids see the ice the rest of the way?
ReplyDeleteIt's a new day...hopefully!
ReplyDeleteHg10,
ReplyDeleteGiven the current line up and Renney's goal with 94-10 I put 37 on there vs. WSH on Thursday.
Based on Renney's past, I think we'll see Smyth's line and the kids but also a Belanger unit sans Paajarvi out there.
ReplyDeleteJesus, this is a nailbiter now...
ReplyDelete10 playing hot potato in the corner with no pressure.
ReplyDeleteThese game will give me a heart attack before the year is out.
28 might not get benched but he should be off that line
ReplyDeleteThat's a good win. Even at home and with last change, this Canuck team is going to go far if they get goaltending.
ReplyDeleteWhat do thy do with Paarjarvi?
ReplyDeleteHe's not very good right now. Does he get a scratch??
Is OKC in his future to get him some confidence?
Petrell is far better defensively
Nice win.
ReplyDeleteWould have to be WG unless its a day to day thing but you'd think so.
ReplyDeleteAnd what of Gagner? I guess Omark draws back in.
I don't normally pay attention to the line matching but boy was Vigneault really trying to avoid the Horcoff line with the Sedins.
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for someone to hand Burrows his chicklets.
ReplyDeletePaajarvi isn't giving up anything defensively, so the best place for him to improve his offence is in the NHL.
ReplyDeleteStick Paajarvi on RW with Smyth and Horcoff. Put his strengths to good use.
WG
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Jones did not have a good game. I think it is safe to say the matchups he has to face against the SC Finalists is a little beyond his abilities. If he can hold his own against most of the league, I can handle it, but the jury is still out on that.
I'm not a fan, I just thought you were being a little hard on him. I'd like to keep watching and see if he improves but I agree, he can't keep having games like tonight's.
Hall with a damn near perfect post game interview.
ReplyDeleteI get excited about the future listening to this kid.
He gets it.
Loved the line about how their ice time was tied to their play in the Dzone.
I'm liking the coach too.
When you are a Stanley Cup contender, you should't be trying to get your best players away from a tough match or give them favourable zone starts, because they won't be getting them in May.
ReplyDeleteAll Vigneault is helping the Sedin's do is win scoring titles by coddling the Sedins during the regular season. He is hurting the Canucks chances of winning the Cup by coddling them.
Selanne might be the most natural goal scorer I have ever seen play. Jesus Christ. I mean I think I'd take him over Bossy, Hull, Kurri, Sakic. He can score like them, and Gretzky and Lafleur and Bure. Any which way you want the goalie to be beat, he can do it.
ReplyDeleteBD,
ReplyDeleteI think 89 finished the game.
I like the idea of 94-10-91.
91 has played more RW than LW in the SEL and in international play.
I'd like to see 23 draw back in vs. WSH.
I saw Barker better tonight. Still too much Mosey in him, but he was making quicker decisions with the puck, and the man can pass it well.
Is it unreasonable to think this team can sustain this kind of play.
ReplyDeleteThe Canucks carried the play pretty much from the goaltending switch. The Oilers got grade A quality goaltending as well but they also did an excellent job of collapsing to the front of the net and blocking shots.
I think the goaltending will most likely come back to the norm. However, the lack of offense from some of the supporting cast is likely to come up a bit.
Injuries are of course always a factor and if Whitney is gone for any length of time that will change the outlook some.
They are certainly heading in the right direction. Smid, Potter and Gilbert have been very good. I'm not a Sutton fan but he is physical and he gets in the way. He doesn't give the puck away much. His mobility or lack thereof is an issue. Barker seems to move the puck fairly well but again his mobility is an issue.
I know it's early but this team has been in every game. I hate the optimism that is building...
Spoiler,you forgot Mario.He was the purest scorer in my eyes.
ReplyDeleteSelanne is a real gem. I get to see him play when he comes to Winnipeg and I can't wait for that game.
ReplyDeleteI dated a Finnish girl when the Jets 1.0 were around and Selanne was playing. He took the time to meet her and is a great guy. Sick, sick hands.
Selanne is damn near the perfect hockey player.
ReplyDeleteIt's Whitneys knee now? Screw this. I want Visnovsky back.
ReplyDeleteCorey Power Potter Played over 27 minutes tonight. Nice.
ReplyDelete