The Oilers are not promised to Edmonton and Edmonton is not promised to the Oilers. There's a pile of money, a mountain of rhetoric and now a deadline (perfectly timed, btw).
The sports news cycle is a cruel thing. In the same 24 hour window that gave us Katz value as 2.8 billion (pinky finger to lips and draw out the "billion") we also see poor old mayor Steve heading to NYC for a severe lashing. He and his expert will drop by Manhattan for shopping, a show and a friendly little "what we have here is a failure to communicate" chat.
I've been reading various opinions on the arena issue and can say that everyone seems to have a strong opinion. I like strong opinions, it's a good thing to have the courage of your convictions. I believe some things to be certain:
- The Katz group has been a bully in the process, and have framed the issue in a way that makes the owner look like the victim. Incredible, and I suspect it has already created ill will that will last a long time.
- City council is overmatched and have fallen into their usual roles. The conciliators and the wing nuts are joined by those who genuinely want to do what's best for the city.
- The province got lucky with the membership selling campaign, so there has been a gap in leadership these last months. The new leader has more important items to attend to, so there's still a window of opportunity to stay on the sidelines.
- Edmonton is not promised to the Oilers and vice versa.
- Bettman is not going to tour mayor Mandel around Manhattan. This is going to be ugly, a terse verbal slap across the face followed by a kick in the ass.
- Those who believe the NHL would be back in a heartbeat because Edmonton is such a strong market misunderstand one thing: the NHL is a 30-man club of rich guys, and they often make baffling decisions. Including out Edmonton would be bizarre behaviour, but it would be easy to create a scenario (dollar going sideways, old building) where Edmonton doesn't get a second NHL team in my lifetime.
So, in all honesty, I'm already distancing myself from the Oilers. Hope they stay, understand if they move to Quebec City. Maybe the Oilers organization just outgrew this market, their vision too great for a city this size to visualize. Maybe it's a case of an owner using the heart of a community as a hammer to get everything he asked for without compromise.
Either way, I'm not interested in pursuing it as a story for this blog. It will play out in other places and I'll read it because there's something wonderful about a passionate argument argued well. I don't share that feeling, just a sense of loss.
I've had a lot of that in my life over the last several years, and have to devote energy to my family. Kids leaving the nest, wife worrying over kids leaving the nest, and maybe some form of plan for the two of us as we head toward retirement. Good luck to all sides. If I may linger just one more minute, I'd like to suggest that you can listen as well as you hear. I think there may be a distinct lack of it currently.

Well put sir.
ReplyDeleteThis was a slam dunk for Katz if LaForge and Co. hadn't started the process with ham-fisted veiled threats to move.
This city was begging to be convinced and they blew it.
If I were Katz I'd fire LaForge over this.
It could have been a slam dunk.
Lowetide: Hunter1909's Fearless Predictions for the Western Conference 2011-2012
ReplyDeleteJust up on my blog.
lol
hunter: post a link, buddy.
ReplyDeleteDamn. I must be getting old because I feel the same and said the same.
ReplyDeleteIf I may linger just one more minute, I'd like to suggest that you can listen as well as you hear. I think there may be a distinct lack of it currently.
I wish I had the dough to hire a skywriter and have this written every day above the city.
I concur, being a die hard Expo fan I can commiserate. I do not think Edmontonians understand how lucky Winnipeg was to get the Thrashers.Either Edmonton is a big league city or not. The time has come to spit or get off the pot.
ReplyDeleteAgreed LT, although I'm not as old as you, thank GOD! ;) I keed.
ReplyDeleteReally though if they leave it would be an awful shame but I'm past the point of caring its just so ridiculous.
Blows mind that Mandel travels to NYC for friendly chat!! Pistol whipping comes to mind
ReplyDeleteAssume bluff is real and Katz will move team.Which team should YEG pursue? Because n/w/s that I anticipate that Bettman will confirm that no team will ever play iin EDM again. Katz is only 1 of 30 partners in NHL and a number of his partners would love to access 5th highest tix prices 8th highest revenue in the league by moving here. Neither Katz or Bettman can force money losing teamsto stay in shitty market.
I hope they come up with a deal that sees Katz put all of his"promised" $200 m into arena,with the new rink to cost a more reasonable $3OO to 350m and just get it done. I do not think that is the deal coming. But if suggestion is deal must be we build Taj Mahal and 80% public money, just say no.
And assemble business plan to move any # of teams here
I'm very happy this has been delayed. A whirlwind of trouble is coming to the League and Pro Sports and Economies in general. People are demonstrating on Wall Street. Europe is riotville over the stupidity of banks and government spending.
ReplyDeleteSmall government is the future for us all, whether we like it or not. The paradigms the Baby Boomers put into place have failed as unsustainable. And the foxes are running the henhouse.
To continue down that path would be sheer folly.
Cratering to organizations holding a gun to taxpayers' heads is exactly the kind of thing that must stop if we are going to have a healthy future for our kids and their kids.
The banks have tons of money to lend, but are in a situation where no one wants it except those that are credit unworthy. Katz can go apply for a loan, tie up his own capital, and accept the risk of this project like the way the world is supposed to work.
There is a solution out there. All Edmonton has to do is look east to Winnipeg.
ReplyDeleteAn affordable arena in an area where he can develop other businesses. Howver, Winnipeg didn't do it all at once. It was built up gradually to support the MTS Centre and the return of the Jets.
Baby steps....
BTW I can't wait for Sunday the home opener in Winnipeg is going to be off the hook!
spOILer
ReplyDeleteWell put. Methinks Katz wouldn't really want to share his profits at all or for long, which would be the fair way to behave if he wants other's money.
Somehow Katz the "White Knight" turning into the evil Baron seems to fit the story of the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteIn actuality the story of the Oilers has had more heartbreak than happiness.
Evil owners in Pocklington and perhaps now Katz, a group of Edmontonians (EIG) coming together to try and save what we had only to eventually give in. Shipping out beloved players constantly from Gretzky to Smyth, being insulted and scorned by other players who came in (or chose not to), being abused in the media and by the media.
I am sure there are a million other stories I have missed.
Really if they packed up and went to Quebec it would in essence be the perfect finish to a tragic story.
I doubt that Oilers leave the Edmonton area. It's in the top 15 markets in the NHL in terms of revenue, and it's also one of the top ten concert markets in North America. Even with a sweetheart arena deal, a move to a place like Quebec or Kansas City means a substantial decrease in revenue and a decrease in the overall value of the franchise. Also, Alberta is a wealthy, growing market, and is lilely to remain so for the foreseeable future. Quebec and Kansas City are much riskier bets. The finances of moving to another city just don't work out.
ReplyDeleteA move to River Cree or a commuter town accessible from the Henday is much, much more likely because Katz wouldn't have to leave the lucrative Edmonton market behind.
I haven't ever said much about this arena stuff, but I really like LT's post.
ReplyDeleteRemember George Carlin: "It's all bullshit and it's bad for you."
Personally, I haven't seen a game in Rexall in over a decade, so I don't care if they move. (They'd probably move them closer to me, which is cool, I guess.)
Even if I lived in Edmonton, I wouldn't see many games and Edmonton's economy won't really be changed by the Oilers either way, so I don't see why anyone should really care. Big screen TV's have changed the power of Katz' threat, IMO.
I wouldn't mind cheering for the Kansas City Oilers. They'll bleed money though and won't be a cap team, just like Nashville. Beautiful arena they'll have, until 2023 when they move to New York to replace the Islanders after the Islanders are moved to Hamilton.
Anyway, Edmonton is going to be so poor in the future given how that whole oil industry is floundering that they'll never be able to afford a hockey team.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAt least we know from histroy that they'd win the Cup again almost immediately after moving...
ReplyDeleteverification word: crosmath
What the media is doing in projecting how many games Sid will play.
"Katz can go apply for a loan, tie up his own capital, and accept the risk of this project like the way the world is supposed to work."
ReplyDeleteIf the rules of the game were proper (such as, build whatever you want, however you want, wherever you buy) you'd be right; and he'd go ahead and do that, then make a pile of money. Unfortunately they aren't.
I suspect a move outside of Edmonton proper will get bogged down in water rights and thus experience even further delays--like Cross Iron Mills in Balzac.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Mandel is smart enough to realize it is Bettman that is over the barrel. By just inviting him to NYC, Bettman loses (or at least a strong negotiator would realize this).
ReplyDeleteKatz bought the Oilers knowing full well the economics and the eventual need for a new venue. If he intends to hold the city to ransom over the location of the team he will have to accept the fallout as per Peter Pocklington. At some point his public image must be worth a small portion of his wealth. He is a smart businessman who did not get rich by negotiating poorly. I fear he has our council at a big disadvantage in these negotiations.
ReplyDeleteNot sure how the Council is at a disadvantage...
ReplyDelete1. Katz wants things from them
2. If he doesn't get them his threat is to go make less money elsewhere.
If you were a loan manager at the bank and this guy asked you for money, refused to open his books, and threatened to go make less money elsewhere...
Would you feel at a disadvantage?
I'm pasting an email of mine that I've sent to our celebrity sports show hosts without a reply.
ReplyDeletePlease help me understand how it makes sense for the city to basically give the money to Katz? I want the arena as much as the next guy but picture this: you're going into business with someone who is only willing to pitch 25% of the upfront costs and forcing you to pay the remaining 75% while getting NONE of the profit. Not. One. Cent.
Does that make sense? Wouldn't you want your "business partner" to at least pay back the money that you've loaned to him?
I understand the economic benefits and how much the city will gain from this but look at it from a business standpoint. A billionaire is holding the city hostage. I hope it's just a negotiating ploy but I don't really think that's the case.
My opinion: get some sort of long term profit sharing for the city. Our billionaire owner doesn't need a handout. We need an arena but we don't need a tycoon getting richer and richer from our tax dollars.
Two disadvantages:
ReplyDeleteKatz is much more experienced in this type of endeavour. Mandel's notable business experience pales in comparison.
The council are politicians and are very influenced by popular opinion. They will very likely accept a poor deal because they fear disappointing the large segment of Oil fans who are paralyzed with fear of losing the franchise.
I expect that if the arena district doesn't go ahead, Katz will sell the team, rather than move it. I think this is more likely than building somewhere along the Henday.
ReplyDeleteThere will be no Edmonton buyer since Quebecor will offer a price too high for any local buyer.
There may be competing outside bids to Quebecor that will offer to keep the team in Edmonton conditional on the city building a new arena for the team.
The arena district as envisioned is a really good idea for Edmonton. The city gets to leverage $250 million in public investment with 4 to 5 times the amount of private investment, all in Edmonton's downtown, and raising multiple times more the value of downtown Edmonton real estate and its property tax generating potential. A downtown arena would do wonders for the economics of the LRT network. Cost effective downtown residential and commercial development would then compete with cost ineffective suburban residential and commercial real estate development.
it will be another lost two decades for downtown Edmonton. And when the new arena gets built, or they build a donut around the Coliseum, Edmonton taxpayers will end up having to pay the full shot.
In the current deal, the last $100 million is a remaining problem, but it should not be an insurmountable problem if reasonable heads prevail.
The thing about options to buy stock or land is that they run out, and they put a natural deadline when people have to make a decision rather than negotiating forever.
If the city wants to drag this out longer, they have to buy the land using Katz's expiring option by October 31.
Deadllines are useful things. Only a month more of this nonsense.
The end of the OIlers would free me of my hockey obsession much like the baseball strike (which took away the Expos World Series) cured me of baseball. Luckily, the hockey team itself is only promising at the moment, and not contending. It will be far less painful seeing them go rather than what happened with the Expos, which ripped my guts out.
The most likely location for the Oilers (other than a new downtown arena) is Enoch or Sherwood Park.
ReplyDeleteMy sense is that Katz just doesn't get how slow and annoying things are when you have to deal with governments and as a result he has had some moments of poutyness and this has caused problems.
To me, the investment of ~$250 million is worth it to have the arena downtown instead of on the outskirts. There are numerous 'urban planning' reasons for this that mostly focus around Edmonton's challenges regarding underdeveloped land in the core.
I dislike the level of involvement of government subsidies in the NHL, but that is how the pro sports markets work in North America and Edmonton has to play in that market if it wants an NHL team. If I could convince all cities to pull their subsidies it would be great - lower ticket prices, a lower salary cap, and NHL hockey would still exist (what else are they going to do - sell cars?). However, you have to work in the market that exists.
Anyway - we will see what happens. I think it gets built. I just think it has been much bumpier than it needed to be because of the approach that the Katz group has taken.
Completely agree with Bookje...I too believe the business model of pro-sports is broken (as a result of precedents whereby governments subsidize buildings to retain or attract franchises). I just don't want Edmonton to try and be the martyr who changes this trend.
ReplyDeleteI'm also nervous about this NY trip. I think the meeting is a decent idea, I just worry it only alienates council because they aren't going to be there (i.e. would have been better if Bettman came to Council for the meeting). I'm sure watching him and Caterina in a verbal exchange would be wonderful.
I don't really sense the oncoming doom and gloom that many seem to think is clouding over Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteThey can say there is a deadline and whatnot, but it's just for show. They're trying to get things moving.
I see a smart business man trying to get the best deal he can get and that's it. It will end with a new arena and the price tags will hang in the middle somewhere and that will be that.
I'm glad you won't be concentrating on this on the blog, LT. It's going to go on for a while and most of it is going to be arguments being pushed back and forth for posturing purposes. Let us just stick to hockey around here.
...And baseball and whatever else we like to blather about.
ReplyDeleteI too believe the Pro-sports, governement funding model is broken.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't want to be is the only City swimming naked when the Tide goes out, because we started this project AFTER we knew the paradigm was broken.
"That's the way it is being done" is not a convincing argument to do something wrong.
If I were Katz I'd fire LaForge over this.
ReplyDeleteLaforge has nothing to do with it. He is on the hockey side.
Katz has entrusted this to Bob Black and a couple of in house guys who are out of their league. Katz should fire himself for not using a decent government relations firm to manage this.
First thing out of Mandel's mouth should be, "Hi Gary, I hope we're here to talk about how much money the NHL is going to pony up for this stadium, like the NFL does for its teams."
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's much of a chance that the city won't eventually capitulate when it comes down to brass tacks but maybe I'm just being naive.
ReplyDeleteAs for what would happen if they moved, fuck, I don't know. I'd be awfully unfortunate to have my two favourite teams move and when you factor in the Tenn Titans that would be three of my old Big Four who went to other cities.
That would have to be some kind of fan record, no?
I loved the Expos more than anything outside of my mother and father. That may sound sad but it makes it nonetheless true. I still love baseball and can fall into the old feelings easily - as I did last night for G5 of the ALDS - but outside of one year I didn't follow the Expos to Wsh. Would I follow the Oilers to Quebec? I would attempt to do so but I don't know if it would stick.
If I could quit on my favourite MLB team then it's a possibility I would do the same with my NHL club.
This is all about money. Not the arena money but the money that it will generate that Katz will not have access to.
ReplyDeleteHe is arguing that the city and province should put in money because they will get a ton of extra benefits for all his work if he puts up all the cash.
Katz will argue that the city will get a ton of money and none of it for Katz, so they should put in. The City will argue that he will get 100% of the profits from the arena, and they will get no "direct" profit for putting in money. You can't quantify how much the city will get in taxes and extra businesses to the area once it is done, so they argue that you can't use this money. That is the crux of the issue. Direct profit from the arena versus indirect profit generated by the arena and downtown revitalization.
Laforge has nothing to do with it. He is on the hockey side.
ReplyDeleteKatz has entrusted this to Bob Black and a couple of in house guys who are out of their league. Katz should fire himself for not using a decent government relations firm to manage this.
Katz has no one to blame but himself. He masterminded this from the beginning. It should be beyond patently obvious that Katz' interest in purchasing the Oilers had more to do with obtaining all revenue from a downtown arena development built with public funds on public land than the relatively meager income generated by the Oilers franchise itself.
I supported the new arena, but not when Katz is threatening relocation of the Oilers so that he can force capitulation from the city on unreasonable demands (i.e. no compete clause from Northlands). Edmonton is a good concert city by my understanding, and part of the benefit of another arena is so that we have two good venues.
Katz has moved from benevolent Batman owner to Pocklington part deux within the space of a few short years. It's equal parts impressive and off-putting. Consider this my notice of defection from the pro-arena camp.
DBO, if that is the case then they are playing on the stupidity of the masses.
ReplyDeleteI cannot believe they would be that condescending.
“...I know we haven’t always made it easy and I’ll be the first to apologize for that but I can assure you our hearts are in the right place.....like each and every one of you I am passionate about this city....I love it’s community spirit, I believe in it’s future and I am committed to helping build it.....”
ReplyDeleteKatz back in 2010 in front of the city council. He didn't specify the level of commitment.
Laforge has nothing to do with it. He is on the hockey side.
ReplyDeleteKatz has entrusted this to Bob Black and a couple of in house guys who are out of their league. Katz should fire himself for not using a decent government relations firm to manage this.
Laforge is President of Rexall Sports as well as the hockey club.
Black answers to Laforge.
Laforge has also been the one most often quoted when the veiled threats come.
Also,
From Laforge's Wiki (because Wiki is never wrong..bookie!!)
Presently, LaForge is coordinating the development of Katz Group's Edmonton arena & district project, a development that may be paid in part with public dollars.
Kyle Cumiskey on waivers, per Bob.
ReplyDeleteThis whole thing is a real shame.
ReplyDeleteTons of opportunities to build something really special, but everyone is too busy crying about the details to make anything real happen.
Forbes has them listed as the 7th most profitable team in NHL.
The Oilers crying poor was the first foul in this mess, but is sure hasn't been the last.
The team blue-skying the plans, now saying that the domed walkway over 104 ave may now just be a pedway... no talk of actually developing the "winter guarden" where the parking lot near the greyhound station is... Councillors sounding off and playing hardball against it because it's what the consituents call them about... Northlands being beligerent because they want to protect their business that loses money annually.
Big freakin' mess.
Of course, this is the Oilers... when has it not been a mess?
Where's Bill Hunter when you need him?
On the side of keeping a level-head: the print media (including this blog) tends to blow things out of proportion at times. I think this being such a potentially emotional issue, that effect is amplified.
ReplyDeleteI think people know that the projected revenues in putting a big sports complex downtown tend to be overblown. So the city has a right to be more demanding of Katz. I suspect something reasonable will be worked out, it will just be slower and more annoying than anyone would like.
//Forbes has them listed as the 7th most profitable team in NHL.//
ReplyDeleteOn an operating basis. Not if you factor in sustaining costs like the requirement to build/renovate an arena every 30 to 40 years.
"In actuality the story of the Oilers has had more heartbreak than happiness...Really if they packed up and went to Quebec it would in essence be the perfect finish to a tragic story."
ReplyDeleteYes, let's choose to overlook 5 Stanley Cups, the rewriting of the record book by the Greatest who ever played and a reinvention of this wonderful game by some of the most talented Hall of Famers to ever take the ice. Glass half empty is such a fantastic way to look at things.
Utter bollocks.
LT, I agree with you, the Oilers are not promised to this city. But when push comes to shove, they've always found a way. And that was dealing with Pocklington who is 100 times worse than Katz. This will get done. Let's hope the sides meet somewhere close to the middle as Katz should definitely be kicking back a % of the revenues.
In other news, Kyle Cuminskey on waivers. Do the Oilers take another pass on a guy that can actually play?
ReplyDeleteNice post Tubes. It is too bad this has become such a "hockey" issue. The arena would only be hosting NHL game 40 to 50 nights a year... and could mean so much more to the development of downtown Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteIt amazes me that Katz would employ such terrible PR/Marketing people. That whole side of this issue has been bungled from day one.
I knew somehow it was Dennis' fault. ;)
ReplyDeleteI'm sure it will get worked out but for Katz its really been a bit of a PR disaster. I have a pal who is an Edmonton businessman who says Katz has a bit of a Napolean syndrome. He says this without any rancour by the way, just an observation of his.
Not sure if its his personality or bad advice or what the story is but its just been so smalltime and hamhanded. Nobody likes a bully.
Yea, just to make sure the structure of how Rexall Sports goes:
ReplyDeleteKevin Lowe is in charge of the actual hockey team.
Patrick LaForge is in charge of the business that owns the hockey team.
Those are two very different things. LaForge may have the tile of CEO of the Oilers, but in reality he is the guy who runs Rexall Sports, which is the division of Katz's company that operates the Oilers, Oil Kings, and Capitals.
As for the arena thing, I don't care what it takes, but it needs to get done. Even in Columbus, where the Hockey team itself is bleeding money, pretty much every business person who deals there agrees that the arena district in downtown Columbus has done wonders for their downtown core, and transformed it in the ways that our City council talks about wanting to do. There are a couple of other similar stories in US cities that I can't recall exactly right now. Seperate from the team the developments around new arenas in downtown cores have made for a more vibrant downtown in those cities.
Even looking at the arenas in the other canadian cities:
Air Canada Center: Downtown Toronto
Bell Center: Downtown Montreal
Rogers Arena: Downtown Vancouver
Saddledome: not quite downtown Calgary, but pretty close
MTS Center: Downtown Winnipeg
Scotiabank place: Kanata
Hell, look at Ottawa. Their arena is in Kanata, and they are the only team in Canada who did not sell out every game last year. I'm not saying that if they build a new arena for the Oilers in Sherwood Park that it wont' sell out every game. Calgary is a bit of a different beast. The saddleome is on the stampede grounds, which is pretty much a stone's throw away from downtown, you can walk there. And the Stampede grounds are a special case because, well, Stampede. But beyond that there is even a strong indication that even in Canada, having a good arena in the downtown core is beneficial to everyone. I've been to a Leafs game at the Air Canada Center and the experience is infinitely superior to the experience in Edmonton, because there are about 500 things to do within 3 blocks of the arena both before and after the game. There is just no comparison.
As for the non-compete clause that Katz wants, I think that's something he needs to drop, as it will sort itself out. When it comes to concerts it's an easy pitch: "do you want to come to a brand new, state of the art arena in the center of the city; or do you want to come to a 40 year old arena that isn't close to downtown?" Katz will get a non-compete because Northlands simply won't be able to compete.
Now, saying all of this, the Katz group has handled this whole situation terribly. I don't think I've ever seen a worse PR push from any company, ever. They are basically banking on the strength of the people of Edmonton wanting the team to stay. Not a good move.
I'm perfectly fine with the city pitching in money to get this done. The city was perfectly fine with spending a bunch of money to upgrade and expand Commonwealth stadium, as well as building a new recreation complex. They should be able to commit some money to the arena. Though this city council doesn't seem to want to pay to cut the grass on public sports fields often enough, so who knows what they will do.
I have no idea how, but this needs to get done, 5 minutes ago. Maybe they need to meet in the middle of the last $100 million. Maybe Katz needs to pony it up, I'm not sure. But this needs to get done. It is getting stupid already. Just build the stupid thing and get all of this bickering over with.
Wunderbar...
ReplyDeleteAre these the same US cities that are presently teetering on the edge of bankruptcy due to ill-advised projects, unemployment, decreasing property values, massive debts, and union contracts?
I don't think doing things wrong is the right example to follow.
This deal would of been done a long time ago if it wasn't for Northlands. Northlands doesn't want to loss it's cash cow. Northlands maybe a non-profit organization and does a lot of good for some people, but the companies that supply Northlands with food and merchandise are owned or run by people that sit on the board for Northlands. They would loss 50% or more of their business if Northlands lost control of the sports arena in Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find odd is that one alderman that sits on Northlands board hasn't step aside due to a conflict of interest. Instead he has been the biggest opponent to the whole deal.
I agree with those deriding the org's inept PR on this, but I also think it's inevitable that some feathers are going to get ruffled in hard ball negotiations. That's the nature of the beast. Yes, it's unfortunate that Katz is not a more benevolent dictator, but unfortunately, the uber rich seldom are. He's putting a gun to the city's head because he can and ultimately that will give him this arena on the most favorable terms possible.
ReplyDelete"Nothing personal, it's just business" That is the mantra at work here. Hard posturing doesn't make Katz evil, it just makes him a canny negotiator. Unfortunately, when the asset in question is the hometown's beloved hockey team, it doesn't take much for this to veer into personal feelings.
That said, I do find some cold comfort in the possibility that Katz may have small man's syndrome. I guess all the $ in the world won't change the fact that he still got picked last for the pickup game. lol
Laforge has also been the one most often quoted when the veiled threats come.
ReplyDeleteLook. Laforge is a bit player here. Everything takes place behind the scenes.
If you want to understand why things may go sideways you need to know that Katz has faced an uphill climb from the get go. He made the assumption that because people love the Oilers that they would work with him to build a downtown arena. He left it up to the guys he has always left his business matters to.
The biggest problems he has had are that he is not part of the Old Boys Club in Edmonton and Northlands has pulled out all the stops the undermine him. If this was Bruce Saville or someone of that ilk it would have been smoother sailing. Katz is a private guy and hasn't built up the trust of the movers and shakers. Many resent him. Given the way he has been treated by many of these people - the feeling is now mutual. Therefore a move to Vancouver.
Northlands has Tony Caterina in their hip pocket and has spent a ton of time speaking to every politician multiple times. They have the guy who got Stelmack elected on the payroll doing GR of the province. Before Katz takes a step they are quick to counter it with info to their media and political friends.
Katz needed to do the lobbying to counter Northlands but left it to his aides and they do not have the clout or experience to pull it off.
Projects like this have little to do with reality. Perception is everything and Katz has not done a good enough job to shape that perception.
The reality is that the best hope is ironically the Calgary Flames. They are well connected and they have done a good government relations job (so much so that you don't even hear about it). They will get their $100 M for their arena, and the province will have to give Edmonton theirs.
Lee: you're most of the way there, but you probably have a bit too negative of a reading of this situation.
ReplyDeleteThe deadline makes perfect sense in the context of negotiating with governments. Because governments are generally not bound by the same cost/profit incentives as businesses, they can and will wait as long as possible before committing themselves to anything remotely controversial (see: debt ceiling negotiations in the US as just one of the latest examples). Moreover, in this scenario, there are two governments which are both hoping that the other will pony up the final dollars. This increases the incentive to delay in the hope that the other will cave.
Given this environment, it makes sense for the Katz group to push for a firm deadline as otherwise, the politicians have an incentive to delay for months (at least). It may be bad PR from the outside, but from the standpoint of negotiations, it's the rational move at this point.
Conspi: half a conspiracy, which a few people on this board seem to have in their minds.
I hope Katz emulates Edmontonians like Winspear, Poole or Stollery rather than Pocklington. Some folks are grateful for their good fortune and try to leave a positive legacy. Your reputation will last long after you and your money is gone.
ReplyDeleteverification word: carcon (no kidding) definition - Peter Pocklington
At least when Pocklington held the gun to our heads he did it with a first place team that won a bunch of Stanley Cups.
ReplyDeleteAny one of the other 29 teams in the league finished higher than his did in the last two years, it's like being threatened with a BB gun.
If Katz wants more revenue he could always do something bizarre like winning some freaking games and earning some playoff revenue, there's a novel though.
Living in Calgary, I really have no right to an opinion here, because it won't be my tax dollars paying for the new arena.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, God I hope this arena gets built. If the Oilers leave Alberta, then I'll be forced to cheer for the Flames *spits*. I may just give up on hockey altogether. Not kidding.
DeeDee, Peter Puck also decided to play Russian Roulette after selling the Great One in his prime in the midst of a dynastic run that could have surpassed the 50's Habs.
ReplyDeleteKatz has a sullied image at the moment. Pocklington was run out of town on a rail. I think there's a significant difference btw the two. Further, how much credit do you actually want to grant PP for the Oiler's success? I would daresay his impact on the on ice performance was negligible at best.
@Ducey
ReplyDeleteInteresting read on the situation. I thought Katz' personal and family history had him already well placed in Edmonton's old money club. Sounds like he should be sending some PR flaks to buy a few rounds at the Petroleum Club asap ;)
Wolfpack - thanks and yes, it has turned into just a hockey issue. Katz's PR department is horrendous. It's turned people who were 100% on side with funding the arena via tax money into thinking "wait a minute, this sounds kind of like a wall street bailout for a billionaire..." If he would have gotten the public on his side from the beginning and pushed (and pushed and pushed) for how much of an indirect benefit Edmonton would receive, maybe it would have been solved by now.
ReplyDeleteKatz would get all the profits from the concerts as well right? Come to think of it, who wouldn't want to go in to business with the city in a deal such as this?
Have no idea how anyone here thinks the City is in this for $250million.
ReplyDeleteProjected building cost $450 million LESS Katz $100m =$350m
Plus cost of land $20m
Plus cost of infrastructure $25-30m
Plus any non-compete cost for Northlands
Plus construction overruns
I expect the actual number will be $450 million once its all done.
Now maybe there will be a HUGE commercial redevelopment DT. Or not. But if not, the City will still have to pay back the $400m it borrowed for this project.
SpOILer is right though the NA sports practice of shaking down Cities and States for Sports facilities is no longer available anywhere in the US. They have insufficient money for current necessities, little alone wants. there is simply NO money available with, maybe the exception of the NFL in LA
Sherwood Park has no money to subsidize a building to the tune of $300-400m.The Casino company at Enoch may be prepared to subsidize the rink but that is real $$ that Katz wants
If a deal can be done Katz will have to come up with more $$ and we build less opulent building.
It's always great when guys like wunderbar list all the other great Canadian hockey arenas and go on about how awesome they are. Of that list, guess how many were built with public money?
ReplyDeleteHint: it's the oldest one of the bunch, and there's talk of replacing it, too.
IT'S TOO LAAAAAATE
ReplyDeleteWHEN WE DIIIIIEEEE
TOOO AD-MIT...
Look. Laforge is a bit player here. Everything takes place behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteThe President and CEO of Rexall Sports is a bit player in the transaction of Rexall Sports trying to build a PPP Arena with the City of Edmonton and Province.
Ok then.
Hmmmmmm.
ReplyDeleteI'm finding both Patrick LaForge AND John Karvellas listed as President of Rexall Sports.
Dammit Ducey might be right.
I still blame Laforge.
Spoiler - there would be no water rights problems with the arena. The situation is very different in this area relative to The Calgary region where there is water stress.
ReplyDeleteOther john - the $100 million ticket tax is a cost born by the consumer, not the city or the public as a whole. The fact that the city would administer the collection of the ticket tax is irrelevant (the team could do this but prefers it to be labelled a tax or fee so that they don't have to include that cost in advertised ticket prices).
Great analysis of the arena situation. I hope things get sorted out soon. Here's a great article for Oiler fans on the future of the team on the ice:
ReplyDeletehttp://oilers-talkmore.blogspot.com/2011/10/in-what-feels-like-eternity-ago-2006.html
Can anyone tell me how to send Lowetide a Link from my blog?
ReplyDeletethanks
Bookie, would you care to back that up?
ReplyDeleteOf course, it would depend on the scale of the project , which might change considerably in a rural location.
Would also be dependent on whether or not it is on reserve land.
However, this is really an ancillary issue to the appropriateness of taxpayer money being involved. If they move outside of the city, of course there maybe delays, including a re-design of the project.
the $100 million ticket tax is a cost born by the consumer, not the city or the public as a whole.
ReplyDeleteBorne by the consumer over time.
The bill to the City is up front.
Every event held at Northlands Coliseum instead of the Palais D'Hockey will mean less tickee tax revenue [they should call it the Mortgage Repayment Fee] for us Edmonites.
Close the Coliseum!
Close the Coliseum!
Close the Coliseum!
Close the Coliseum!
@ Hunter:
ReplyDeleteHere's a link to your blog predictions. And here's a link to how to use them.
Just out of curiousity, did those of you who oppose any public money going to a new arena also oppose the public funding that wnet to the Winspear Centre and the Art Gallery of Alberta?
ReplyDeleteOh Katz. You bought an expensive toy. Deal with it.
ReplyDeleteYou have over 2 billion dollars. At what point do you stop needing money?
Truly a greedy individual.
We should stone you for people who can't eat/drink each day, and you trying to convince us you're exactly like them.
About the reported finances of Mr.Katz. Its just "paper money" he just can't go to the bank and withdrawal 2 billion dollars.
ReplyDeleteDo any of you own your own home? If so, you most likely have a mortgage but the market value of your real estate can be used as "paper money" value. Do you see where I am going with this? I am not saying Mr.Katz isn't rich cause he is, but the values reported need to be placed in context.
As for the arena, in my humble opinion the arena is the "anchor" in a good way to FINALLY get downtown developed. I drove down 104 ave from City Hall to Oliver Square for years for work and the nicest thing is Grant Ewan College the rest is junk! Would be nice to have some interest downtown to go in concert with that great Grant Ewan College development. The arena is a big deal but having that vacant land developed into something of value that produces tax revenue and consumer value is just and if so more important. Please let's all look at this as a City of Edmonton development instead of a Katz development. I love this City and born and raised for 39 years I would definitely welcome change and spirit back to downtown. (anyone remember Woodwards downtown? Edmonton Centre, the good old days)
When our City Hall was built 20 years ago, it came with many distractors and looking back now, I am glad it was built, hopefully my kids will say the same about the possible new downtown development.
Marc...
ReplyDeleteYes!!!
Mav: No. But it's not like any sort of fiasco in this situation could really hurt him.
ReplyDeleteI mean, does he really expect the Oil to lose money?
Just out of curiousity, did those of you who oppose any public money going to a new arena also oppose the public funding that wnet to the Winspear Centre and the Art Gallery of Alberta?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youraga.ca/about-aga/our-mission/
"The Art Gallery of Alberta is a not-for-profit organization that relies on the support of its Members, donors, sponsors and government. The AGA is grateful for the generous support of the many public and private donors and sponsors who have made the AGA’s New Vision possible, as well as the ongoing support of the City of Edmonton, the Alberta Foundation for the Arts, The Canada Council for the Arts and our Members. "
http://www.winspearcentre.com/support/
"Support
A non-profit organization, the Winspear Centre relies on ticket sales, parking and rental revenue as its primary sources of funding. By making a donation to the Francis Winspear Centre for Music you can help to maintain this magnificent facility and ensure that our community continues to attract the local, national and international artists."
I don't really care about the process one way or another. I have my Detroit Lions with a good gm and coach playing great.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Detroit. They have this beautiful ball park and football stadium right next to eachother. Then it's surrounded by ruins and abandoned buildings. I thought sports arenas were surefire downtown revitalizers?
Regardless, better give some millions to some rich dudes. They'll make sure it trickles down to the plebs.
The Art Gallery of Alberta is a not-for-profit organization that relies on the support of its Members, donors, sponsors and government. Blah Blah Blah!
ReplyDeleteMy true artist frends. All did hard labour to support there careers, Slash brush, Road construction, Heavy equipment. One even sold work to the national Art gallery.
I am not a fan of giving free money to clicky tools! Or funding a non sustaining industry. Katz included!
But if we are going to fund an edmonton thing.
Toll booths are were it is at.
We have the Capital region But all surounding population rejected an tax inclusion with Edmonton.
You do not live in edmonton. Pay to get in to work.
There are 36 entry points to Edmonton. each point having from 100 to 75100 vehicles a day. they have a total traffic of 654400/day.
13 of the stations are under 2500 vehicles and could be covered by Camera and auto booths.
the other 23 station are 5000 or higher, and total 635100 vehicles.
23 manned toll stations bringing in $2/vehicle- 635100 vehicles-365 days a year. 436.62M/year from non edmonton road leaches.
Plus swack the mass transit crowd from said communities
Amen to that!
@Jon k
ReplyDeleteSo if Katz and the Oilers were a non-profit you'd be all for it?
It shouldn't make a difference who is asking for the money. They city should base their decisions on which projects will provide the most benefit to the city.
If they decide a new arena would greatly benefit the city they should do it, regardless of whether or not the organization asking for money might profit from it.
They also should reuse money - even for charitable non-profits - if they can't justify the benefit for the city.
TUG: My post was merely a response to a previous one. The clear implication of my post is that the comparison made by the first person is not a valid one.
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand: money given to two not-for-profit organizations run specifically with the intent of benefitting our city and province.
On the other hand: money being given, essentially in perpetuity, to one of the richest men in Canada under threat of relocation of the Edmonton Oilers.
Do those situations seem analogous to you?
To respond to your post, absolutely the city should make decisions based upon the benefit to the city and its taxpayers. Do you think there is more or less benefit to the city in giving revenue to Katz that could be collected by the city? Do you think there is more or less benefit to the city in giving Katz exclusive license to hold concert events? Do you think the city is more or less likely to benefit by Katz holding the city ransom with his ownership of the Oilers?
jon k
ReplyDeleteThe point I was trying to make is that the federal, provincial and city governments each contributed millions of taxpayers dollars to the contruction of the Winspear Centre and the renovation of the Gallery. Neither will ever generate much in the way of financial benefits such as additional tax revenue to any of those governments, but they arguably make the city better for the people who live there - an intangible benefit, but some would say that it was a worthwhile investment.
The arena should in the long run generate tangible financial benefits for the city if it attracts private sector investment to the surrounding area. Those benefits may or may not ultimately pay back the city's investment in the arena in full. Whether or not they do, the arena would also generate intangible benefits for the city - a better experience for anyone who attends an event at the arena, and potentially the regernation of a truly crappy bit of downtown. Some would say that that in itself is worth some contribution from the city.
I don't live in Edmonton so this really doesn't affect me one way or the other. My city is using some of my taxes to host the Olympics next summer. There will be some tangible benefits like better transport links and public sports facilities. There will also be some intangible ones - encouraging kids to get involved in sports, encouraging volunteering, regeneration of a shityt part of London. I don't see how I can assess whether the Olympics are a good use of my taxes without looking at both the tangible and intangible benefits of the Games.
Smarmy: your example is Detroit? Seriously? I've been in the city several times and it's not just the arena district that's hurting because the entire economy has gone to hell. Moreover, poor urban planning has shifted any positive developments to the suburbs that ring the city.
ReplyDeleteSo no, a new arena isn't the infrastructure equivalent of some economic magic beans - it will not, absent any other forces, cause a new and vibrant economy to spring into place. However, it can be a draw to new consumer dollars, create synergies with other businesses and draw development to underdeveloped areas, such as Edmonton's downtown.
There's obviously a good argument to be made against the spending of public money, but that's not an argument against the potential effects (nor is a Detroit example).
I wonder if LT will throw up a merrier post to take us into the Thanksgiving weekend.
ReplyDeletePerhaps something along the lines of Taylor Hall: 60 Goals Or Merely 50? or Ales Hemsky: 82 Games = Art Ross?
Followed by some Scarlett pictures.
Can be a draw to new Consumer dollars?
ReplyDeleteSo we each get out own little printing press out of this, lol?
Yes Cactus I'm comparing Edmonton to Detroit.
ReplyDeleteThe part where I said I didn't care either way didn't tip you off?
Totally disagree with calling it "Bad Timing".
ReplyDeletePoor execution, and PR relations by Katz - absolutely. Very weird how he managed to sour his relationship with Edmontonians who were originally cheering his name as the new owner. Can't figure out why one would do that.
HOWEVER, as a proud former Edmontonian - the decades, yes decades, of small mindedness from City Hall and the road blocks put in front of business or development (downtown airport a prime example) is incomprehensible. The arena dealings have been dragging for years already and will continue to drag if there is no deadline forced up on the City. They need a referendum on a referendum to get anything done. Calgary and other major centres have every right to snicker. It sucks the vibrancy out of the city.
It's so very dissappointing.
Let's keep in mind some rules of Economics. There is no new money. Higher ticket prices, a ticket tax, higher property taxes all divert money from other items. Your disposable income is not going to change, but the costs of your Entertainment dollar is. An increase to property taxes will reduce your disposable income on all items.
ReplyDeleteI'm not stating these issues as an argument for or against, but to keep the arguments clear.
Same with the road toll idea above. This isn't new money. This toll will reduce your consumption of other items, the vendors of which will suffer.
Revitalizing downtown doesn't add money to the economy, but moves it from other areas to the downtown economy.
All this is dead obvious, right?
I haven't read the whole thread yet but apparently Smid is medically cleared to play-what Renney does with the roster is still to be decided.
ReplyDeletemelman: The "bad timing" referenced the reports about Katz' worth coming out mere hours before the news that Bettman was going to deliver the threat.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine the Katz PR steamroller felt that was a win.
Lowetide: was my second post deleted dues to pointing out that a billionaire owner doesn't need a wall street type bailout? What are the rules here??
ReplyDelete//Let's keep in mind some rules of Economics. There is no new money.//
ReplyDeleteNOT true. Katz's $200 million plus all the other private capital going into the arena district is NEW money, perhaps upwards of $1 billion altogether.
Any other private capital that goes into downtown Edmonton if the AD goes ahead is NEW money.
LT...ahhhh (20W bulb begins to flicker).
ReplyDeleteI still stand by my comments.
and spOiler - new development can bring in and drive new $ if done well.
tubes: I didn't delete your comment, let me check in the spam collector.
ReplyDeletemelman: That's cool.
Okay, there were 7 comments in the spam filter thingy, including an "lol" from Gerta Rauss a week or so ago.
ReplyDeleteSpam filter. The new 8-track.
thanks LT-I knew it was that internet thingy...:)
ReplyDeleteGerta - I especially liked this quote from Smid...
ReplyDelete"Sometimes I can feel it but most of the time I'm pain free. In my mind I'm good to go."
Well, as long as he's good to go in his mind...
I don't trust Smid's mind since he turned his back on Avery.
ReplyDeleteA thriving arena district can and will attract new money.
ReplyDeleteMaking Edmonton an interesting tourist destination as opposed to the city with that "big mall" can be accomplished by ensuring the development is architecturally pleasing and the surrounding area includes amenities that visitors are looking for.
Can anyone honestly say the Forks in Winnipeg, Granville Island in Vancouver, Eau Claire market in Calgary and Fisherman's Wharf/Ghiardelli Square in San Francisco don't being in any "new money"?
These were all civic beautification projects that worked tremendously well.
The Oilers already draw significant out of town dollars to the city and, if they leave, that money is going with them.
Then to claim that investment in a downtown arena district doesn't bring in new money is just absurd.
Most of the investors in those kinds of projects (hotels, restaurants, casinos, do NOT reside in Edmonton and will NOT just go looking for other ventures in Edmonton.
Capital knows no borders and it will follow the best return.
Having lived in Edmonton for decades and had very up close and personal experience with both City Hall and Northlands, none of this nonsense surprises me in the least.
Edmonton just cannot shake its small town attitude where there is enormous envy for anyone who might be successful.
I had a chance a few years back to sit down with Jim Shaw and, in conversation with him just before he picked up his company and moved it to Calgary, he gave me some pretty good insight into how difficult it is to do business in Edmonton and how much of a stranglehold the old boys network has on the city's interests.
This from a man who built a multi million dollar business from a small Edmonton cable operation, has spent big dollars supporting the convention centre and donated a ton of money to NAIT.
Since I no longer live in Edmonton, I really don't have a dog in this fight but I think it will take a monumental effort to get this project back on the rails since the phlegmatic burghers of Edmonton don't have the vision to look even five years down the road.
All the can see is "funneling taxpayer dollars to a billionaire and they just can't see the benefits that a thriving downtown will have for many, many decades.
Opponents of the arena can make a case that the pro sports stadiums model is broken if it requires public dollars to provide venues for pro sports teams but that is the model and I'm not sure Edmontonians realize how close they are to finding out that a small market team like the Oilers are far from an ideal test case to try and break that model.
spOILer:
ReplyDeleteWhy wouldn't toll roads capture some money for Edmonton that they otherwise wouldn't receive?
If a family from St. Albert goes out to dinner once less per month at a restaurant in St. Albert, because of the toll roads set up in Edmonton, isn't that "new" revenue for Edmonton relative to St. Albert?
Do those situations seem analogous to you?
ReplyDeleteThey do, because they are all situations where the city government needs to decide if the funding requested will suitably benefit the city.
The mere fact that Katz is rich and may profit from funding should be irrelevant. The fact that Katz hasn't been as polite as we might wish is irrelevant.
What matters is whether or not the city deems the project worth the expense in benefit to the city. Nothing else should even be contemplated.
Eau Claire market in Calgary
ReplyDeleteYou haven't been to Eau Claire in a while have you.
I can most definitely and honestly say it doesn't bring in any new revenue.
The place is absolutely dead and will be bulldozed for condos.
One of the oft referenced arena revitilization project cities is Denver.
ReplyDeleteLucky enough I happened to have lived almost a year in the area during various jobs.
The arena and baseball stadium while nice, are not the drivers. Anyone trying to pretend they are is selling a crock of something.
Ever improving mass transit access via transit, a ever growing midwest oil company headquarters and great access to the outdoors leading to many young proffesionals enjoying the location are key. Another big one is...way for it...culture. Downtown is the spot where the real nightlife is at. Rather than the edmonton approach of pushing out, witch-hunting and harrassing places that do things like play live music, the place is crawling with them. Arts, culture and work are the primary drivers.
95% of the people that show up to sporting events are just that people that come and then leave and the lion's share of those people (especially in a market like Edmonton) are not going to be inclined to move from their large house closer to the arena. They are not your condo and infill type people.
I look at the whole 'downtown revitilization' angle that keeps getting played and laugh almost as hard as the bombing for 'freedom' approach. It's bullshit, pure and simple.
Stack the idea that were are not only going to pay for more skyboxes (more retained revenue to owner in skyboxes than general seating due to CBA), install and enforce a non-competitive clause to ensure Northlands just becomes a rotting concrete bowl and then pay for the whole thing with no assured return of said money (while vastly increasing Katz's revenue streams) is just stunning.
Don't get me wrong I would like a new arena but the terms given and the approach is basically someone demanding your money while calling you a retard to your face. He really makes it hard not to say "Get bent buddy".
I figured they would start at this extreme position to build the resentment and allow Mandel to save face as he negotiated a way 'better' deal for the taxpayer...Figured it would work well and the lion's share of edmontonians would be proud that they didn't get screwed (which likely they still would have). The fact that they keep unsweetening the pot and continue with this bullying approach is now funny. If this all falls to pieces it's no ones fault but the Katz group.
There is a way to do this that could be win win
Lt
ReplyDeleteThe jobbing arena in Phoenix cost 180 million.
Why are we at 450 million??
Ken: If daddy tells you he's going to chip in for half a BMW, you might as well ask for an M5 even if he had a 1-series in mind...
ReplyDeleteTo the "new money" responses above... No!!!
ReplyDeleteThe arena project does not create new money. It diverts existing money.
Speeds has it halfway correct in that yes the money the Arena gets is money resteraunteurs and theatres and moveihouses and skateboard parks and whatever are no longer going to get.
Terry Jones can be a real twit sometimes, or maybe it passes for sarcasm.
ReplyDeleteAnd over the mountains $563 million of public money was used without a lot of braying to put a retractable roof on B.C. Place and remodel the interior.
Dude, this is the land of the three aluminum Supercatz. $460 million. Three years late. Sold for scrap. Many involved never thought it would work since before day one. Gag orders. If we don't bray, it's only because we're already hoarse. Stupid money to be emulated and adored by fat wankers on short leashes only.
When it comes to professional sports shaking down communities to build their expensive toys, I'm no fan at all.
I'm pretty much 100% certain that the price that's right for the city of Edmonton is a better bet for Katz than anything else he might threaten, unless his scheme has multiple booster rockets we're not yet aware of. As much as Bettman is on side with Katz in maximizing the shakedown, he's equally opposed in the privacy of his own mind to playing franchise bingo. That could go very, very bad for the league in short order.
First they will going to claim their economic reality is far stronger than it really is to make their threat more credible. Then if Edmonton holds its ground, they'll find a credible excuse to cave.
In the day of weakness before this transpires, Edmontonians will be told there's no other fish in the sea and chided to vengence against politicians in charge, to see if they'll mortage the city for one more term in office.
I know a couple of guys dumped by high maintenance chicks they could no longer afford (emotionally) who never looked back.
Most people like to have esteem in the eyes of their peers. Especially competitive people. What do billionaires talk about at meetings with colleagues?
ReplyDeleteWell I suppose getting a huge chunk of a massive project for nothing looks good. The city was smart to express a limit to their end. I hope they can stick to it.
The advantage Katz has is partly experience, but mostly I would say it's that he comes from a singular angle, the city side is a committee. Divide and conquer, camels and horses, etc. etc..
I'll bet my left nut that the Oilers stay in Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm that confident.
Tell me why a guy worth $2.8 billion should be able to reach into my wallet and steal my money, just because I happen to own property in Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteGo sell your snakeoil to Hamilton, or Quebec City, or Podunk SK, but stop using city council as your corporate-welfare collection agency.
Carpet-bagging dou.chebag.
Marc said...
ReplyDeleteJust out of curiousity, did those of you who oppose any public money going to a new arena also oppose the public funding that wnet to the Winspear Centre and the Art Gallery of Alberta?
Logic fail.
Winspear Centre hosts non-profit arts groups.
The Oilers are a privately owned for=profit ;business.
godot: The Oilers already draw significant out of town dollars to the city and, if they leave, that money is going with them.
ReplyDeleteyah, what would people in Buttf#ck, AB., do with their discretionary income if they didn't have Oilers season tickets, paid for by the $2 billion a year the provincial government hands to farmers every year? They might have to restrict themselves to the St. Paul Bingo.
How could Edmonton survive??