One of the great writers of modern hockey advanced stats is Tom Awad. You'll find lots of his writing at hockey prospectus and although it sometimes takes the reader (me) time to pick up what he's putting down, the logic of his view of the game is pure.
Awad was one of the first guests I pursued when the Nation Radio shows began and the insight he offered during the interview was extremely valuable. There is no question we can all learn from Awad,
the question is are you ready? Be prepared to have some of your hockey beliefs questioned, but keep an open mind.
Awad's writings offer us a fine starting point as we begin to figure out what all of these young defensemen are going to do over the next decade. Today: finding an emerging defensive defenseman.
We often talk about "top 4D" and "depth D" like they are universally known disciplines. They are not and often cloud the issue. Let's ask Tom Awad to give us a better picture of what we should be looking for--a real requirement---in a defensive defensemen:
- Awad: It is easy for the value of a defensive defenseman to match the value of an offensive defenseman, but it is hard for him to match the value of a two-way defenseman. Top defensemen can contribute at even-strength, on the power-play and on the penalty-kill; a defensive defenseman, even an elite one like Willie Mitchell or Greg Zanon, is handicapped by his inability to contribute on the PP. On the other hand, one-way offensive defensemen, like Tobias Enstrom or Alex Goligoski are limited by the opposite problem. Best of all is someone who can contribute in all situations: Nicklas Lidstrom, Zdeno Chara or Duncan Keith, but also Marc Staal, Brent Seabrook or even Mike Green.
Completely logical and gets us away from "top 4D" and into "what does this player do well?" We've taken the argument from an emotional one to one of logic and reason.
- Awad: Luckily for defensive defensemen, at even-strength defensive skills are more important for a defenseman than offensive skills. To find a top defensive defenseman, the 3 most important metrics are even-strength ice time, PK ice time and QualComp. A fourth is Corsi adjusted for Zone Starts, QualComp and QualTeam (DeltaSOT or something similar).
Now we're looking at specifics. EV TOI, PK TOI and Qual Comp. Since this is an Oiler blog, let's run the three disciplines from last year using Gabe's behind the net numbers.
EV TOI (Oilers blue 10-11)
- Whitney 18:19
- Gilbert 18:09
- Petry 16:54
- Smid 16:50
- Peckham 15:58
- Vandermeer 15:39
Interesting list. Most of us would have guessed that Whitney and Gilbert led this category, but Petry's number is a revelation. Coach Renney didn't have Whitney due to injury, but did have other defensemen but chose Petry for a role well above the normal callup. When we talk about Petry being sent out, it might be wise to remember that the coach called his name above others at even strength last season. Peckham's 16 minutes are also interesting, telling us that he had moved beyond some of the veteran hands available (Strudwick, Kurtis Foster) at the EV discipline in 10-11. Also interesting to note that Smid's minutes do not tower over Peckham's despite a large difference in NHL experience.
PK TOI (Oilers blue 10-11)
- Gilbert 3:21
- Whitney 2:42
- Smid 2:40
- Peckham 2:31
- Vandermeer 2:04
- Strudwick 1:57
This is a fascinating glance into the coach's decision making process. Given the choice of veterans wide a nice range of skills (Gilbert, Whitney) versus young stay-at-homes (Smid, Peckham) and long in the tooth stay-at-homes (Vandermeer, Strudwick) he chooses the complete players (logical) and then goes with youth over experience. Interesting. We notice that Jeff Petry is not on the list of top options, perhaps suggesting there is more to be learned before he can be considered in the Whitney-Gilbert group. Smid and Peckham are quite close in minutes on PK, suggesting to me that once again Peckham has passed the older veterans on this team.
QUAL COMP (Oilers blue 10-11)
- Tom Gilbert .044
- Theo Peckham .023
- Ryan Whitney .016
- Ladislav Smid .005
- Jeff Petry -.033
- Jim Vandermeer -.047
Coach Renney used Peckham (based on these numbers) in more difficult situations than Smid. This isn't to say that he would have in different circumstances but given the options available Peckham got the call. Gilbert struggled under the strain of tough minutes with Peckham, but another option (Smid) was available and many times coach Renney chose Peckham. In my reasonable expectations series earlier this summer,
I wrote the following about him:
- Peckham played tougher minutes than one would think for a player of his experience. He did it while playing with Tom Gilbert 48% of the time at evens. He did have the toughest zone start, so for Peckham to emerge with his CorsiRel at -6.6 and a -5 overall (and allowing a major dollop for luck) that's still a solid year. This was his first full NHL season.
I'm not one to reach grand conclusions on one year (or less) of available information. Having said that, and if we can agree Mr. Awad's words hold water, then Peckham's status as an NHL defensive defenseman is worth watching this coming season. He could be a useful player for the Oilers over the next several years.
Everybody loves Teddy, even mathematics loves Teddy.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of defencemen, I have been looking at Saber's prospect Marc-Andre Gragnani.
ReplyDeleteHe was 3rd rounder in 2005. He put up 60 pts in 63 games in the AHL last year. He has played 15 NHL games over a few seasons.
He has decent size 6'2", 195 lbs and has always put up numbers.
As far as I can tell he needs to clear waivers and the Sabers seem to view him as a #7 or #8.
Ducey: WHAT? And give up on Chorney? Come ON!
ReplyDeleteDelooper: There's a big difference, especially for an Oilers defenseman, between being used in tough situations and being able to handle tough situations.
ReplyDeleteThe math shows that Peckham was used in tough situations.
SS: Quite right. However, when you consider the minutes and zone starts I'd argue that (even including luck) his CorsiRel and plus minus show that he had a rookie season that he can build on.
ReplyDeleteAnd maybe in that role (DD). That's my point.
I like Peckham too, and I'll bet he has a career, but he's going to need to improve a bunch of it's going to be as something other than a third pairing guy.
ReplyDelete(Or he could just stick with the Oilers and be top-pairing within a year.)
SS: If he passes Smid on the depth chart, I think he should be considered a legit top 4D.
ReplyDeleteFair? Would you consider Whitney, Gilbert and Smid candidates for top 4D on most NHL teams?
I would consider Whitney and Gilbert top 4 D on other teams but probably not Smid
ReplyDeleteMr. Smitty: Okay, so it's Gilbert and Whitney. IF Peckham played more PK at evens and approached the TOI and evens for Whitney and Gilbert, would that mean (iyo) he was a legit top 4D?
ReplyDelete@LT.
ReplyDeleteIf you keep comparing Peckham, or any other Oiler defenseman, to other members of the worst defensive core in the NHL, your results will inevitably be skewed toward over valuing players.
Mr. Smitty has it right IMO.
While it's true that that's all the Oilers have to work with (thanks to Tambellini bringing in such stalwarts as Barker and Sutton when they actually need two top four defensemen) it hardly makes players like Smid or Peckham top four defensemen on any good team.
On more than a few teams they would be AHL defensemen.
@Ducey,
ReplyDeleteNot sure about your comments about Gragnani. With the comments from Feaster about the Oilers I went and looked into that Regher trade. The one article I found said that Chris Butler was expendable because of the progress Gragnani has made.
So, he may have been a #7 or 8 last year, but I am sure they are counting on him to be a top 6 for sure or maybe even a #4.
IF Peckham played more PK at evens and approached the TOI and evens for Whitney and Gilbert, would that mean (iyo) he was a legit top 4D?
ReplyDeleteOnly if the results were there.
Regwald:
ReplyDeleteCounting on him as a 4? Not too sure about that, BUF's top 4 looks pretty likely to be Myers and Leopold along with newcomers Ehrhoff and Regehr.
They've resigned Sekera for pretty good money, he's probably the 5th, leaving Morrisonn and Weber potentially as the 6/7 guys on one way contracts. Could be that the send Morrisonn through waivers to make room, or that they carry 8 D?
I was kind of surprised no one tried to OS Gragnani, at either the cost of a 3rd or 2nd round pick, with BUF's cap situation.
ReplyDeleteSS: Of course. I think it's going to be an interesting year for Peckham and Smid and there might be a point where Teddy Peckman passes him in year two.
ReplyDeleteWhether that benefits the team overall is something we'll have to wait and see.
Speeds,
ReplyDeleteBeen looking at BUF's D and cap situation for a while.
Something has to give.
I hope v3.1 is in there pitching.
Agree that an OS on Gragnani was warranted. I guess that SJS didn't want him, Wilson seems to be the only GM who knows how to use them.
Also,
ReplyDeleteA little OT but since DSF is paying attention to this thread I thought I'd post this about ON 5v5 SV%.
DSF has stated in many threads that Gilbert's poor ON 5v5 SV% last year (.889) is directly related to his play.
Those who know more than me state that ONSV% is fairly random and a cursory look at some players over the year show this to be probable.
In order bring DSF into the light on the randomness of this stat I present Kesler's ON 5v5 SV% for the last 3 years:
2010/11 .928
2009/10 .893
2008/09 .909
So either Kesler is randomly terrible or decent (see .035 jump from 09/10 to 10/11) or the stat is fairly random.
Consider Gilbert's numbers over the same period of time
2010/11 .889
2009/10 .909
2008/09 .913
That's less swingy than Kesler.
So if what DSF professes is true, then Gilbert similar (or better) player to Kesler as a hockey player...or, the stat is fairly random.
The only constant in ONSV% is that 4th liners consistently lead the group, which is mostly due to playing against other 4th liners who cannot score.
Woodguy: DSF doesn't believe that stuff, he just says it.
ReplyDeleteLT,
ReplyDeleteProbably true, but its still fun to present evidence.
Woodguy.
ReplyDeleteI've never given any credence to on ice save percentage since, as you point out, it's absolutely random.
But it's normally the last line of defense for those who defend players who are performing poorly (it's all the goalies, not Horcoff's Gagner's, ad nauseum... fault).
Interesting that you use Kesler as an example since his production in his worst sv% season was also the same season he had an abnormally low shooting percentage and still managed his best offensive season ever.
Looks like the Rube Goldberg contraption has a few kinks to work out :)
I've never given any credence to on ice save percentage since, as you point out, it's absolutely random.
ReplyDeleteBullshit.
You've quoted it to support your opinions, lately of Gilbert.
But it's normally the last line of defense for those who defend players who are performing poorly (it's all the goalies, not Horcoff's Gagner's, ad nauseum... fault).
So Kesler has been either near the bottom of VAN forwards and his high point is 6/12 among forwards, so he's terrible at defending? Thought so.
Interesting that you use Kesler as an example since his production in his worst sv% season was also the same season he had an abnormally low shooting percentage and still managed his best offensive season ever.
I'm talking about defence, not offense. Nice try to move the ball.
Ducey: WHAT? And give up on Chorney? Come ON!
ReplyDeleteWho said anything about getting rid of Chorney?
I am sure they could work out a trade of Whitney...if he gets healthy he will only take the team out of the lottery :-)
Well, okay. We can trade Whitney back to the Ducks, but only if we get Jacques and DD back.
ReplyDelete:-)
@ Woodguy.
ReplyDeleteNope.
Gilbert:
GFON/60 2.36
GAON/60 2.63 (worst among all Oiler defensemen)
Kesler:
GFON/60 2.95
GAON/60 1.95
Can you spot the difference?
Or do you put it all down to bad goaltending when Gilbert is on the ice?
Well, okay. We can trade Whitney back to the Ducks, but only if we get Jacques and DD back.
ReplyDeleteJDD perhaps?
I'd prefer Viz.
Leave it to DSF to move the posts when he is owned.
ReplyDeleteHahahaha.
Owned.
DSF,
ReplyDeleteCare to qualify those numbers with QC and QT?
Also,
You are comparing a 30th place team with a 1st.
Well done.
Move the posts.
Owned.
Woodguy: I'm telling you it isn't worth it. It's like playing Rubik's cube except the color's keep changing. And then you look up and it's midnight.
ReplyDelete@ Woodguy.
ReplyDeleteNope.
Gilbert:
GFON/60 2.36
GAON/60 2.63 (worst among all Oiler defensemen)
Kesler:
GFON/60 2.95
GAON/60 1.95
Can you spot the difference?
Or do you put it all down to bad goaltending when Gilbert is on the ice?
Way to use Kesler's high point and Gilbert's low point.
Hahahahaha.
Owned
Woodguy: I'm telling you it isn't worth it. It's like playing Rubik's cube except the color's keep changing. And then you look up and it's midnight.
ReplyDeleteSage advice.
My daughter is having a nap (as should DSF) and my wife is at the store.
I lost a ton on CAL in CFL today so I need something to keep my mind off of it.
Ah, okay. CFL has been bass ackwards all weekend. WHY did I marry a Rider fan? WHY?
ReplyDeleteWG-Tsonga/Fish are going to a 5th set if you're looking for sports entertainment.And the night matches haven't started yet.
ReplyDeleteAs you said that I flipped over in time for the most ridiculous point ever. Think hacky sack.
ReplyDeleteA young Cassius Clay with the early break.When that guy is healthy he's a monster.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how much of Peckham's use in tough situations was just experimentation by Renney when the Oilers season was pretty much ruined, like Dec. 1 and afterwards? What better way to see if a player can or cannot play in tight spots and against better players than when the result of the game holds no importance?
ReplyDeleteIf Peckham played on a team contending for the playoffs he would be a 5 or 6 defenceman at best, but on the 2010-11 Oilers, any warm body on the blue got to try kill penalties.
Comments today from Horcoff and Smyth
ReplyDeleteBill Needle: Yeah, I'm sure there was a lot of that and maybe the coaching staff didn't want to run Vandermeer and Strudwick more than they were doing.
ReplyDeleteWe'll see this season. Sutton has a PK rep and with Whitney, Gilbert and Smid ahead of Peckham he may not PK as much this year.
Can we at least agree Theo Peckham is an impact player (good or bad)?
ReplyDeleteAmongst defencemen he was 114th in TOI, 108th in games played, 52 in blocked shots, 8th in hits, 1st in penalty minutes, 18th in give aways (in other words horrible), 69th in takeaways (great for someone with his experience). In other words stuff happens when he is on the ice. A lot of that stuff makes it harder on the Oilers opponents. Some of it made every Oilers fan cringe.
Woodguy: I'm telling you it isn't worth it. It's like playing Rubik's cube except the color's keep changing. And then you look up and it's midnight.
ReplyDeleteI laughed out loud.
By the way, that should be 52nd in takeaways and 64 in blocked shots. Doesn't change the point that he is high event.
ReplyDeleteWhat precisely is the advantage of having a defensive defenceman versus a complete defenceman? I can see none. That anyone continues to look for one baffles me.
ReplyDeleteGet guys who play hockey well.
LMHF: I think the problem is there is a limit to the number of complete defencemen, particularly the talented complete defencemen. In my mind, it would be much better to have an excellent defensive defenceman than a mediocre elite defenceman.
ReplyDeleteLMHF#1: Well, I don't think you could realistically employ 6 complete defensemen. PP time, cap troubles, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe old timey Habs had a bunch of complete defensemen but by the time Robinson was Robinson Savard had reached an age where he morphed into a DD (although it was injuries more than age).
It's a good question: how many complete defensemen can a team employ before trading one of them to address need elsewhere?
My guess is three, and they would never be the same age. One in his prime, one on the way up and one on the way down.
Lapointe, Robinson and Savard.
Woodguy said...
ReplyDeleteOwned
Care to qualify those numbers with QC and QT?
Also,
You are comparing a 30th place team with a 1st.
Phhhtt...just used their most recent seasons which are likely a pretty good way to judge them.
Gilbert is a soon to be 29 year old defensive gong show who is getting paid like a 45 point producer.
I'm sure he would be a reasonable #4 D if paired with a steady shutdown guy but, as always the Oilers have their #7 hitter batting cleanup.
And, sure, no one denies Gilbert was playing the toughs...just as no one should deny he's getting torched.
BTW Kesler also plays the toughest opposition and thrives.
Perhaps you should try and figure out why one team is a 30th place team and why one is 1st.
Your first clue from these discussions should include the performance of Tom Gilbert, although he's certainly not alone.
DSF: So, Malhotra was playing the soft parade?
ReplyDeleteDSF said:
ReplyDeleteBTW Kesler also plays the toughest opposition and thrives.
Lowetide said:
DSF: So, Malhotra was playing the soft parade?
"Steve Smith" said:
I don't think "toughest opposition" means what DSF thinks it means.
Noodles = Game set and match!
ReplyDeleteLT - The '06 team would seem to be an interesting study. They didn't go out and add defensive guys, they added a balanced d-man (Spacek) and a specialist (Tarnstrom). They had Pronger (uber-dman), Staios (balanced), Smith (slightly horrid with the puck, but still balanced), Greene (rookie, attempting to develop him into a complete dman), and Bergeron (specialist). The specialists and rookie were cheap. Everyone else was balanced.
ReplyDeleteI don't see a lot of Greg Zanon and Jan Hejda types on winning teams. There's no excuse for these guys being less than average with the puck. Even Smith during the run made some outstanding plays offensively and got his shot to the net.
If we look at the current group, we could have realistically added Pitkanen and White (neither a defensive D truly) and had:
Whitney-Pitkanen
Gilbert-White
Smid-Peckham
Sutton
That's an affordable and talented group. Not a truly limited guy among them aside from Sutton. To me, Smid is the prototype if you want a defenceman who doesn't get points. He makes an excellent pass, skates the puck well, and can thump people with either hits or fists. He doesn't have cement for hands and doesn't go "boards and out" all the time.
I see purely defensive defenceman as severely limited and untalented players. That's just my take on team building in a lot of ways, but that's the thought process.
Cactus - I'm wondering if that player actually exists. Secondly, I'm wondering if he can provide value for money. The game is puck movement now.
ReplyDeleteHere's a goalpost for Oilers honks:
ReplyDelete30th place.
Two years in a row.
Ergo: Most of your players blow.
Owned.
Sure Teddy has a ways to go... but seeing him absolutely work big Joe Thornton behind the Oilers net last season(cleanly and lay him on his butt) was a thing of beauty.
ReplyDeleteI think Teddy has more upside than Smid but Teddy needs to find more consistency.
As far as dmen go, winning teams typically need an absolute stud top pairing like Weber/Suter, Chara/Seidenberg, or 6 number 2 dmen like Vancouver last season.
LMHF: I think one of the problems is that we need a more specific definition of "defensive defenceman". Is it just a guy who can reduce chances and shots in his own zone? If that's the case, you might be correct that their upside is limited. However, if we're talking about players like Smid, who can make a first pass but won't run the PP, then, by your own analysis, such players have greater utility.
ReplyDeleteAs far as reminiscing over the Oilers 2006 d, if you subtract CFP, I'm sure things wouldn't have looked nearly as rosy.
ReplyDeleteHaving an elite, bullet-proof, 2-way complete dman can obviously change the complexion of any team's d corps. Throw a Weber, Doughty, or Chara onto our depth chart and we probably wouldn't spend nearly as much time talking about how crappy our depth at d is.
However, the obvious problem is getting one of these studs in their prime given how rare they are.
Art,
ReplyDeleteTrue.
Gilbert is not one of those players.
DSF,
Kesler's QC/QT last year:
QC 8/14
QT 6/14
CorQC 8/14
CorQT 5/14
Hardly the toughs sir.
Gilbert:
QC 1/6
QT 2/6
CorQC 2/6
CorQT 4/6
Also,
2009/2010 the year that Kesler's ONSV% trended down you had this:
Kesler:
GAON/60 3.09
Gilbet:
GAON/60 2.84
Mind you, that was the year that Kesler actually played against Tough Comp.
Good thing they protect him now eh?
If we look at the current group, we could have realistically added Pitkanen and White (neither a defensive D truly)
ReplyDeleteThe same Pitkanen that sulked his way out of here in the first place?
Is Ian White really any better than Barker? White has been on 5 teams in less than 3 years.
Hopefully by years end we will be looking at a big turnaround from Barker or some advancement from the guys on the farm.
Petry should be ready and one of Potter, Fedun, Tuebert or Plante can hopefully step up and grab the #6 role.
How does Tom Gilbert land in a thread titled 'defensive defenseman?' There is no defense for his play!
ReplyDeleteThank you, I'll be here all night. Try the veal.
In completely unrelated news, I had a great long weekend capped by an idea for an absolutely fantastic halloween costume. If you see J Jonah Jenna Jameson at your Halloween Howler this year, you'll know Lee is in da hizzy.
It might be wise to keep an eye on the concussion issue. Hitting is likely going to get tricky for D as it stands now.
ReplyDeleteThe league doesn't like to change, but Crosby's injury hits them right where it hurts - in the wallet.
The advantage may end up going to guys like Klefbom, Petry and Blain, more rounded players with decent size that already play a less aggressive but still physical game.
Peckham has done really well, but needs to focus on his game now if things do change because of recent events.
Ducey said...
ReplyDeleteThe same Pitkanen that sulked his way out of here in the first place? Is Ian White really any better than Barker? White has been on 5 teams in less than 3 years. Hopefully by years end we will be looking at a big turnaround from Barker or some advancement from the guys on the farm.
Ducey, the CnB boys, LT, and a bunch of others have all clearly shown that for all his perceived 'sulking' the Oilers were a much better team with him and he remains one of the best defenders they've had.
Ian White has be traded a lot based largely on the fact that he's been on non-playoff teams looking to sell, and has high value as an affordable short termed solid 2nd pairing defenceman. He's done well on every team he's been on.
Both of the players listed above are orders of magnitude better than any defenceman not named Gilbert or Whitney on the Oilers.
Barker won't bounce back to top 4 defence form since he's never been capable off being that or been used as such. He's always been used in the Foster PP specialist role. What we're hoping is that by some miracle of probability he becomes a top 4 rearguard despite his relatively long NHL history that says otherwise.
Counting on a Barker reinvention ala Patrick Sharp isn't a good bet. Neither is hoping a 1st or 2nd year defender will become an effective top 4 player. The ball has been dropped in regard to the blue line, intentionally our not.
Blogger Woodguy said...
ReplyDeleteDSF,
Kesler's QC/QT last year:
QC 8/14
QT 6/14
CorQC 8/14
CorQT 5/14
Hardly the toughs sir.
In Kesler's best offensive season, 09/10:
Qual Comp 1/12
Qual Team 4/12
Looks like he can do it either way.
Having Malhotra available is a huge bonus for Kesler's game.