Messier's development as a center took place over a period of years. Peter Gzowski in The Game Of Our Lives (written during the 80-81 season): Although he has been converted from center to left wing on Matti (Hagman's) line, Sather still sends him out for crucial faceoffs. It is a favorite ploy to send him out with, for example, Stan Weir, then have Stan deliberately mix it up with the opposing center, get waived off by the referee and hand over the face-off duties to Messier to take against another winger.
Years later (1984) they were still talking about Messier's move to center as a recent item; the discussion focused on the impact it had on the club's first Stanley run:
The Oilers have the look of a team that is (or will soon be) out of balance (nothing new there). A team with outstanding wingers (Hall-Eberle, Smyth-Hemsky, Paajarvi-Omark) and perhaps in need of a man in the middle.
Who is the better candidate to move to center? Hall has played center in junior and coach Renney talked about it last season (Hall even took some faceoffs during the year). Eberle has the brains for the position and Paajarvi's experience as a defenseman at the lower levels would help him with positioning and recognizing plays as they develop.
Anyone else?
I think the Oilers should be set with RNH, Gagner and the soon-to-arrive Anton Lander. They have a nice veteran combination for support in Shawn Horcoff and Eric Belanger. If Lander can provide a 2-way presence and maybe display enough skill to play with the beauty wingers as they mature, the Oilers may be set up front.
Imagine: no more worries at center. The last time the Oilers could even pretend to make that claim Doug Weight and Todd Marchant called Northlands home.
Should RNH, Gagner or Lander flag, which of these young wingers is the best candidate for a move to center?
You want Hall to be leaving the defensive zone early to use his speed to put pressure on the D. You don't want him tied up in front of his own net.
ReplyDeleteEberle does best when he sneaks into the opposition zone and finds a seam to exploit. He likes the back side of the play. I don't see him as being big enough for the corner work.
MPS is the best option because he would do a good job to cover down low in front of his own net.
But really, just leave them as wingers. As you stated there soon will be plenty of depth at C.
Hate to agree with Ducey who advocates patience but I think he is bang on.
ReplyDeleteWould not move Hall, Eberle or MPS to center. Might move Belanger for Boyd Gordon so that he is your PK faceoff specialist still on roster when kids get good but thats because I am a big B Gordon fan.
Our forwards will, in time, be elite But may never be matched by an elite D or goalers, though
MPS would be a good choice, but I really think the best on the offensive side would be Omark.
ReplyDeleteHe really impressed me with his puckhandling and playmaking skills the last 2 months of the season when Renney (IMO) made him be less selfish with the puck and played behind the net.
Plus, he kid is fantastic in open ice and can score goals.
The problem with that idea is defense, and who knows if Omark ever took a faceoff in the SEL or KHL.
Intriguing question...
ReplyDeleteHall's definitely the most ready of the three though it would sacrifice some of his abilities as per Ducey.
MPS has the natural assets and defensive instincts, but I expect it would be a steep learning curve for him to learn the position.
As for Eberle, my gut says "no," but it could be worth trying.
As far as MPS, when I play the tape (in my mind) of as much of last season as I watched, I have a few thoughts...
ReplyDeleteI agree with LT that he does cheat for defense in terms of his positioning in the offensive zone.
On the other hand, I don't seem to have vivid memories of him winning puck battles along the boards or making clever defensive reads to break up a play.
Anyone else, thoughts?
There are potential benefits and weaknesses to each of them at the position. In addition to the comments already made, I would add that putting MPS at centre takes away his ability to use his explosive outside speed down the wing.
ReplyDeleteI think they should slowly trial them at centre over the course of the season, as injuries occur and line juggling begins. If one of them shows a particular knack at centre with the right wingers, that person become a centre option in case of injury and an option to move over more full-term if RNH, Gagner, or Lander don't stick around. They all have potential... the only way to find out if it work is to try it out.
The answer is Hartikainen, beast along the boards has physical tools, is it crazy? yes yes it is.
ReplyDeleteHall - RNH - Hemsky
Paajarvi - Hartikainen - Eberle
Smyth - Horcoff - Grier Type
Eager - Belanger - Lander
Obviously not right away, but I would be attempting to groom Harski as a C in OKC
More thoughts...
ReplyDeleteEberle--I guess my gut says, "no" because he's just such a beauty of a RW'er.
MPS--He's yet to establish himself as a legit top six winger, so what's his potential ceiling as a centre? 3C? No org need for that at present nor would it make sense to send him down that path at this point.
Hall--For Ducey, who's complaining about Crosby's speed being wasted by him playing centre? Or is Crosby just an average skater?
Thinking in terms of potential ceiling as well as org need, I guess my decision would be Hall on the basis of him having the potential to be a legit 1C. That being said, he's a hell of a LW'er, so I'm okay seeing him there too.
LT,
ReplyDeleteIf you recall, Messier also spent some time on Gretzky's wing. When things weren't going well in the playoffs, Sather would occasionally drop Anderson down to the Linseman line and move Messier up for a game. But yeah for regular centre, I'd have to say Linseman too.
As for moving one of the kids to C, I think Eberle is the most natural centre of the bunch. However, whenever he has played on stacked teams or with similar talent, it seems every coach has moved him to W. Now in the WJCs that might be because he didn't have the speed he has today, dunno. I would probably still be likely to leave him at wing though.
Hall is such a similar player to Mess, that you'd have to think it would work, but maybe in a 2C role like Messier. He doesn't strike me as a prototypical C and he's such a puck hound I don't know if that's the best place for him. It's kind of like, would you play Rick Nash at C? Hall's defensive abilities and all round smarts don't strike me as good as Eberle's.
I would not attempt MPS at C. I don't think he has either the vision or the creativity for it. Just does not have the same top end to his puck skills as he does his speed. I doubt he's ever taken a face off and considering he's already switched positions in the past 6 years, maybe it would be betterto just leave him where he is. Plenty of wingers could score and provide a defensive conscience too: Ramsay, Kurri, Tikkanen, Pisani etc etc.
Pick one:
ReplyDelete1. Oilers feel they'd be hindering his offense by moving him to the middle.
2. they believe he can't handle the responsibilities.
3. they think they have enough pivot options in house...or will by the time they get another 3 or 4 more lottery picks.
I've mentioned it a few times here this summer, I'm in favor of at least giving Hall more of a look at C, I like the idea of him around the puck a lot - I can imagine the team getting more, in two years, from Hall at C and Gagner at RW than Hall at LW and Gagner at C, though it's certainly possible the team would be better off leaving them at their current positions.
ReplyDeleteDeveloping as much versatility as you can in as many of the young players as you can seems like a good idea to me. So if that means giving Hall, Paajarvi and Eberle some time at C, Paajarvi and Omark time on both wings, great!
Love this topic, LT. Had this conversation with my dad the other day where I said that I absolutely believe Hall should be moved to C.
ReplyDeleteThe argument has been made here several times before that "Hall's speed is best served on the wing" or something to that effect. Do you people understand which position on the ice requires the most skating? He's a pure battler too which would serve him well on the defensive side. Sure, he will not be in as many blazing, down the boards rushes, but he would be open in the slot a lot more, where the majority of NHL goals are scored.
Please don't let razzle-dazzle blind you people. Ya end-to-end rushes are breath-taking but how many of them actually result in goals? Not nearly as many as one-timers from in close or puck battles near the crease, where Hall would be more if he were C. He is also has a rediculously scary release and stunningly accurate shot, so simply by being in a scoring position more often would result in more goals IMO.
Faceoffs...I'm not so sure of. Just judging from his nature though (no, not quantifiable) I feel he would eventually excel at those too. I still remember Crosby in his first year asking Perrault at an All-Star game why he was so good on faceoffs - he was so hungry to improve. Not saying he's Crosby of course, just saying he also has that indominable will to succeed.
Ever since 2002 we've been looking for a scoring centre for Hemsky. We've got one. Imagine that. In fact, I've seen the future and this is what it looks like up front for the Oilers in a few years:
MPS - Hall - Hemsky
Hamilton - RNH - Eberle
Hart - Lander - Pitlick
Whoever
Keep that left wing locked and let the other two fly.
punes - keep you regular.
And this is why I will be looking forward to every Canucks/Oilers game this year.
ReplyDeleteBetween Eager and Hordichuk the Canucks will be a very distracted team. Even more so if Sutton steps up and takes out a player or two for fun.
EAGER Public Enemy #1
I am confident Hall could take on any centre in the league (with some time) and at least hold his own - Crosby, Sedin, Stamkos, and any of the 2 way guys like Toews, Kessler and Bergeron.
ReplyDeleteI can't say that about any other current young Oiler centre at the moment.
Hall at centre would be an even bigger nightmare to defend.
I think Eberle is smart enough but with his speed and size I don't think his game would be as good there, too much focus on him which would limit his opportunities for deceptiveness.
The other thing is you take care of the biggest weakness on the team with the team's best player. Get 2 D and a goalie, done. Bust out the Brasso.
Oops I missed this on the previous post.
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't say this, but RNH/Hall makes me think Gretzky/Messier lite. Tingles.
Well if no one has a comment I'll just keep going ;)
ReplyDeleteHall's mentality seems pretty clearly that he's in charge, dominant.
I think he might really like being in the middle and driving the play, taking the whole ice, not having to wait for a centre.
He'll err on the side of trying to do everything, but can coached to use his wingers well. The question will be who will have the wheels to keep up with him?
Promethian may have nailed it - MPS and Hemsky on his wings. I don't know if anyone else is fast enough.
Fast Oil: I think that's the thing, if they are going to do it then this season would be a good time to get started.
ReplyDeleteIt may not stick for a long time, or maybe it keeps coming up as an issue, but Hall and RNH at center is one helluva start at center.
Plus it might allow all these wingers to stay (Paajarvi, Hartikainen, Omark, Hemsky, Eberle).