--
I think it's time we started thinking about this Oiler rebuild in longer swaths. Like a decade. A five year plan is well and good, but in today's NHL--with free agency leaking out the other side at 25--teams have a very small window of opportunity. The odds of the Oilers getting it right on the first go are not strong. Taylor Hall is eligible for free agency in 2017 summer. How far can they get by then?
Let's mark out the starting point:
- Goal: Devan Dubnyk looks like he'll have a major league career. We don't know if he'll be a quality starter, a co-starter, and effective backup or a fringe goaler but DD has shown enough at this point to get another season and he'd likely catch on with another team even if he falters next year in Edmonton. Nikolai Khabibulin, Martin Gerber, Jeff Deslauriers and Bryan Pitton don't appear to be long term options. Stu (Magnificent Bastard) MacGregor has addressed goaltending with two fine prospects: Olivier Roy (.922SP in Feb) is a quality Q goalie and Tyler Bunz (.929 in Feb with Medicine Hat) is playing well in the WHL. This position is not deep and has the denver boot NK contract, but good goaltending is available at reasonable prices so the club could endure the Khabibulin contract while running Dubnyk and a suitable partner over the next two seasons. When will this position become championship quality? I don't have an answer.
- Defense: Ryan Whitney is a veteran defenseman with the most complete skill set on the roster. He's also injury prone and some of those injuries could be chronic. Tom Gilbert is an effective finesse defender signed through 2014 but didn't get a mention in an Oilers web article that tackled the future. Ladislav Smid gives the team some experienced depth and Kurtis Foster should have a better season in 11-12. They do have some nice things coming along in young ruffian Theo Peckham and puck mover Jeff Petry. Youngsters Alex Plante, Colten Teubert and Taylor Chorney are also available. The draft table has been plentiful since Stu's group took over in 2008, with impact prospect Martin Marincin and quality puck movers Jeremie Blain and Brandon Davidson all coming from the 2010 haul. Defensemen are injured so often that there's a good chance only one of three will reach his potential. Still, he'll be a welcome sight upon arrival. When will this position become championship quality? It's a long way from average. It's anyone's guess because injury plays such a major part in this position, but it's clear this is an area of weakness. If the club can count on Peckham and Petry moving forward, and can add a couple of similar talents over the next 24 months then they're going to be okay in the depth areas. I suspect the club is seriously considering selecting Larsson at the entry draft; if not, my bet is they trade up into an area where they can select a Dougie Hamilton.
- Center: Shawn Horcoff's contract runs out 2015 summer. He's got some issues (injury) but remains a solid pro at this point. Andrew Cogliano has found a friend in Tom Renney and that is an important item; Sam Gagner continues to improve-not in leaps and bounds, but rather in fits and starts. In the minors, Milan Kytnar, Ryan O'Marra and Chris Vande Velde don't appear to be the answer. Stu's selections have given the team some nice quality in Anton Lander, Tyler Pitlick (currently on the wing in junior) and Ryan Martindale. One or two of them could develop and help a team. When will this position become championship quality? Not as hopeless as the blue, there's still work to be done. Gagner is a safe bet (if they keep him) to be a solid contributor on the top 2 lines and Horcoff can hang around in a checking role. Cogliano appears to be finding his way, but the Oilers must consider selecting either Ryan Nugent Hopkins or Sean Couturier with their top pick. I believe Taylor Hall may be the answer at center.
- Left Wing: Taylor Hall and Magnus Pääjärvi could be a deadly 1-2 combination at this position for years. If the club can find a way to surround them with quality 2-way players, both kids should be able to develop into real outscorers. Ryan Jones is going to get a good contract offer (better than the one he got) and my bet is he's here for at least two years once the ink is dry. We have to allow for a wonky roster spot here (call it the Jacques spot) for a knuckle-dragger, but I do wonder if the team would be better off with a strong winger like Teemu Hartikainen. The Oilers appear to have struck gold (down the line) in junior winger Curtis Hamilton (6th in WHL assists). When will this position become championship quality? I'll say 2013. Hall and Pääjärvi should be able to impact at a high level by year four.
- Right Wing: Ales Hemsky is all-world but injuries are beginning to eat away at his career. That's a major item rolling out. Jordan Eberle is music. Once Hemsky leaves, Eberle will become the de facto #1 RW (Horcoff and Cogliano are place holders for the future top line this season) and that could happen as early as next fall. Gilbert Brule and Linus Omark have shown flashes of brilliance and the inconsistencies of youth, but one of them should turn into a dependable player (that's what we said about Robert Nilsson). Liam Reddox doesn't get a lot of attention but he can play the game and every team needs plumbers. The minors offer little, but Toni Rajala should get some consideration. When will this position become championship quality? A signed and healthy Hemsky along with Eberle gives the Oilers some nice depth right now. Add a checker from the Dvorak/Pisani tree and you'd like to think this group could go to war now. RW as it stands isn't an area of weakness. If they trade Hemsky for a center, Gabriel Landeskog would be a solid selection for this position.
Edmonton is in rebuild mode. The Dustin Penner trade (and Kevin Lowe on HDIC) told us as much. Oiler fans can look to a productive drafting team and a farm system that could send as many as 7 kids to the show next season (Lander, O'Marra, Hartikainen, Rajala, Chorney, Plante, Teubert).
Plus the lottery pick. It's a long way to go.
There aren't many positives that can be taken from the 2006-2009 "rebuild", but at least the Oiler seem to have learned that having a quality AHL organisation makes a big difference in prospect development, and that throwing prospects to the wolves before they are ready can seriously damage their development.
ReplyDeleteThey are putting more money and effort into OKC than they have into previous minor league affiliates and when you compare the cautious way they've handled Petry and Dubnyk in particular this year, compared to the way that Smid, Nilsson, Gagner and Cogs were handled, it gives one hope that they might get it right this time.
Excellent article LT. Shows just how far we have to go to ice a really competitive team.
ReplyDeleteAny chance we get to see Hartikainen in the big show this year? I like the skillset he appears to offer.
And in other news, I've just finished watching the Liverpool - Man Utd game. 11 on 11 hockey on grass, without sticks and skates, and with a ball not a puck? Will never catch on...
(And I must remember to get used to LT's new comment protocol. My wife is gonna get pissed that I keep accidentally using her Google ID)
ReplyDeleteGlasgow Oil
To second what Marc said - I hope the Oilers management develop some institutional and organizational memory from their mistakes over the last few years.
ReplyDeleteGlasgow Oil: Which one are you? Flossy or Dossy? :-)
ReplyDeleteI've been beating this drum a bit over the past couple of days, but I think it's not necessarily accurate to describe 2006-09 as an actual rebuild. It was more like wandering in the desert in search for treasure, except that most of the "finds" turned out to be mirages. Between the offer sheets, the high profile trades and big money free agent signings, this wasn't a team truly committed to a proper rebuild but one trying to find whatever fix was available to become competitive.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this listlessness should have led to Katz giving the boot to Lowe and other parts of management. I'm curious how many people here would show more patience to this plan if the messengers were different.
I think we need to go back to the Katz ownership take over, maybe 2.5 years ago.
ReplyDeleteThat`s the starting point for all of this.
You know something - Four top players are gone. The Oilers are rock bottom and yet they are motoring. Renney has done a hell of a job. You want your team to compete and they are doing that in spades. How can you not like this team. This team doesn't need a saviour any more. There are options in house as in Hamilton, Lander, Pitlick, Teubert, Marincin.
ReplyDeleteEvery time I type Marincin, I smile - To all the bullies, you going to run us because you can - Well here's an elbow for you, eat dirt.
LT: that seems reasonable, but my personal starting point for the rebuild is the failed Heatley hail Mary and the subsequent realization that a quick fix wasn't possible.
ReplyDeleteLT, i was listening to the interview of Gabriel Landeskog on the pipeline show and he said that he is predominantly a LW and only sometimes plays RW. So he is more like MPS in this regard. I also think that it is time we look at Pitlick as a RW as he has played major parts of 2 seasons at that position.
ReplyDeleteAlso a sweet performance by Gagner last night. Now the remains to be seen is whether he hits 60 points this season or not
Tambi revealed another part of the plan between periods in an interview earlier this week.
ReplyDeleteThey want 6 more quality picks over the next two drafts. I'm pretty sure he referred to 3 in this one. I would assume the 3rd next year is supplied by Hemsky.
And he must be aware of the blogosphere as he made a point of saying Stu is thrilled with his options this summer.
Stsout--ordering the 4th round of Guiness.
LT,
ReplyDeleteI've thought the exact same thing since the Penner trade. That is, the Nordiqes/Avalanche model of rebuild, where a team tanks for a LONG time, is obsolete now that we have the cap.
Not counting a 28 year-old in a rebuild that is already a year old, in the new NHL, seems like madness.
Chicago got very lucky with the Kane pick - not only in winning the lottery from fifth place but also that he turned out as well as he did.
Lowebellini is counting on getting very very lucky over the next few years. And how often has that worked out for us in the past?
It's incredibly exciting the Oilers seem to have learned that an AHL team helps - even though it's as obvious as corn in a cornfield that it's neccessary.
ReplyDeleteMoral of the tale-Oilers are morons.
Like D says I too hope the Oilers management develop some positives from their mistakes over the years - although in any other industry or business these dicks would have been down the road about a half decade ago, and there is zero reason to assume they will actually ever learn anything whatsoever.
Cactus - I once thought Lowe knew what he was doing. In 2006 he had a clue, then started acting like a drunk left overnight in a public house. Plainly he's not the man for any kind of serious job, but since he's got what looks like a job for life, the team is doomed - how do you spell that out? d.o.o.m.e.d.
Apologies for this rant. It was another late night for me, no Oilers of course, and in time I suppose I'll just forget about them and save you the trouble of reading this drivel.
Enjoy the Oilers, the official joke franchise of the Western Conference.
Flames fans rejoice. You never will have to worry about the Oilers as long as Lowe is part of this team.
2006 - 2009 wasn't a rebuild, it was a "rebload" - half rebuild, half reload, and it blowed.
ReplyDeleteFor the sake of argument - you move Hall to center then you can draft Landeskog as replacement. Trade Hemsky for at least a fast, tough RW to protect MPS and Hall. Then you filter in, the HLP kids as they develop. If Gagner is your second center, he needs defensive coverage as in Landeskog.
ReplyDeleteI think that team would be competing for a playoff spot next year.
Cactus: Very good description of the post Pronger period of 06-09. Whether it was wandering in the desert or grasping at straws, there was a lot of grasping at straws in an attempt to find a short cut back to the top.
ReplyDeleteMy sense is the re-build officially began when they finally realized that these big contracts were an albatross - with Khabibulin being the cap stone of a failed strategy that included Souray and the big whale hunting (Hossa, the aborted Heatley trade, the trade of Stoll/Greene for Visnovsky) and the Penner offer sheet (which actually may have been the one move Vish made that did not completely backfire).
One thing is certain. It takes time to unravel bad management and that's part of what makes this period right now painful. At least we get some occasionally glimmers of light (last nite) to ease some of the pain along with the progress of the kids. If it weren't for MBS, I shudder to think where we'd be.
oilerdago
@ norman mendoza
ReplyDeleteIt was a debuild
@ Bos8
ReplyDeletetoo many young players to be that successful At best it will be like Colorade last season which was only a mirage.
Furthermore, apart from Couturier, i dont see anyone who doesnt need to spend another year in a developmental league.
Spoiler:
ReplyDeleteDo you remember where you saw or heard that interview with Tambellini regarding the "6 more quality picks"?
I love what I read about the swedish winger but he's a LW and we already have 4-91 for that position plus Hamilton almost sounds too good to be true - size plus forward with grit and hands and PK ability - and that gives us super depth on the LW side.
ReplyDeleteSo, it's almost like the best player occupies a position where we are at our strongest.
If they put 4 at pivot and left him then then you draft the big swede winger and you deal 83 for a RW or a real D: read not Colten Plante-Teubert.
The way I see it is we need a real D and a real centre and a real RW.
We have a lottery pick plus 83 and the Kings first round pick in order to address those needs.
I would put 4 at pivot and start with a 4-10-89 centre nucleus, draft Landeskog and peddle 83 for Bogo.
or I would draft larsson and deal 83 for a RW or someone you could move to RW.
Things would be much easier for the oilers if they put Hall at centre, wouldn't they?
I think a,Landeskog is the only one that can step in b, Hemsky is too much at risk. From there it's a timeline. I think that team would compete for the playoffs. If it missed they would still be competing and developing.
ReplyDeleteNow, there are assets in place that haven't been here, ever. This team has been a hope and a prayer since the glory days. To state the obvious, they are building a foundation and OKC is a vital piece.
You can't discount Lowe completely. If he could put a team together on the fly in 06, he didn't go into his dotage immediately after.
I think Lowe had to work against Katz with his shiny new toy. A fan owner is a dangerous thing until the reality check.
Dennis: Renney did say the experiment isn't over. I wonder if they come to TC next season with that in mind.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's a stretch to argue that this team will be more competitve next year even if it does very little in the offseason. In fact, I think the Oilers could finish around 9th-11th in the west and at least sniff at the playoffs if three things occur:
ReplyDelete1) Fewer injuries to key players. Some of these are happening to injury prone players (Hemsky, Whitney), but that doesn't explain the lost time from players like Horcoff, Hall, Eberle, Peckham, Vandermeer and Brule. Even injuries to depth players like Brule are significant in that they force more playing time on unprepared youth or players that shouldn't have a job (JFJ). Better luck here, admittedly no guarantee, is good for a few more wins.
2) Better goaltending, either by Khabby not going through that ridiculous early-mid season slump or simply by playing more of DD and Gerber/replacement 3rd goalie.
3) Marginal improvements from the young players. Hall was on track for a 25-30G season before the ankle sprain. If he shows even small improvements, that range moves to 30-35G. Combined with improvement amongst Eberle, Paajarvi, Gagner and others, even small steps should yield sizeable results.
A second straight bottom 4 finish (30th is in jeopardy thanks to the greater ineptitude of Ottawa, Colorado and Florida) is nothing to cheer about. However, it's worth keeping perspective here and noting how even a few small changes could lead to a sizeable improvement.
The only thing I don't like about putting 4 at C is that it takes away his biggest weapon, his speed.
ReplyDeleteWatching him this year, he takes the outlet pass and immediately turns the opposing D on their heels and a gets the zone. This is the main reason why he's been a corsi machine.
Put him at C and you lose that. He opens up a ton of ice at LW.
I think its a solid bet that the Oilers come away with a D and C (not necessarily in that order) from the first round.
Also,
Trade Hemsky for at least a fast, tough RW to protect MPS and Hall.
and
deal 83 for a RW or someone you could move to RW.
You know that they Oilers rarely trade NHLer for NHLer or a very good prospect right?
83 will be moved for a 1st in the 2012 draft or be used to improve draft position in this draft.
What's coming back for 83 will be a 1st rounder and/or "a former 1st rounder" who would not be re-drafted in the same spot.
Kevin Lowe LOVES draft pedigree.
Cactus,
ReplyDeleteYou missed the main reason this team sucks.
Their Dcorp is AHL quality.
Its really terrible.
77 and 6 are the only bonafide NHLers. 5 is kinda, but it stops there.
They have the worst Dcorp in the NHL, COL is close, but when everyone is healthy the Oilers are the worst.
49 and 58 will probably help some, but they are still years away from being good enough to be reliable D on a playoff team.
Starting to feel a little jealous that Winnipeg could very soon inherit a pretty damn good team.
ReplyDelete"It's believed the NHL's patience with the situation in Glendale has reached the breaking point and that if the municipal bonds are not sold within a matter of days, or unless there is a new strategy revealed for getting the lease agreement done, that the league will move to relocate the team to Winnipeg."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=6185492
A matter of days, pretty interesting stuff. It's about time Bettman swallows his damn pride and do what has made sense to the rest of the hockey world for years.
WG: I agree that the Oil's D is the heart of the problem (that and the weaknesses at C), but that will require either development of drafted talent, trades or UFA/RFA acquisitions to solve. My point was simply that even leaving aside these deliberate actions, this team should begin to improve in its current form.
ReplyDeletePersonally I would prefer Paajarvi at center if he could handle it. Both Hall and Paajarvi need someone who can skate with them and speed is a weapon.
ReplyDeleteI was always intrigued by Belle as a winger. I think that's a lost opportunity. Nobody could think outside the box.
All I can tell you is that I quit watching hockey for years. That crap wasn't entertainment it was agony in slow motion. This year I've looked forward to games. Last night I turned on the game and by God they were competing, they had every reason to quit and they didn't.
Moose said... Spoiler: Do you remember where you saw or heard that interview with Tambellini regarding the "6 more quality picks"?
ReplyDeleteYes. I was in my living room.
If Hall is gonna line up at C any time soon, trading Penner makes even less sense.
ReplyDeleteI like Hall at wing and I am with WG.
ReplyDeleteI would them rather draft a center than move Hall there. S till dont see Hamilton as a top 6 LW option despite his successful season so far. I think with Hall, MPS and Hamilton we have out top 9 LW in a lockdown. Hemsky Eberle and Omark occupying the other side. Couturier/Horcoff/Gagner seem solid to me.
If we trade Hemsky, then it must be for a good Dman. then our RW will be more like Eberle/Pitlick/Omark.
Then D is
6-77
58-trade return from Hemsky
5-49
not championship calibre, but a decent starting point.
I think MPS would make an excellent center.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Dennis re: 4 at C. I don't know the game from a technical/tactical perspective, but his IQ and many other abilities appear to make him an excellent candidate for that role.
ReplyDeleteAny opinions on $ amount and term for Jones? Do we know what his agent turned down recently? He's more of that LW depth.
WG: Drafting a centre would be most tempting if SC and RNH were merged into one player. It seems each player has gaps in their game that may delay their arrival at the NHL level as a #1 C. I am curious where they are on the developmental curve compared to Schenn as of today?
ReplyDeleteIf D is our biggest issue, then short of dealing for a Bogosian, then we should be drafting Larsson. I realize we need a top centre, but I'll take 4 solid centres, who play both ways and a top notch D over a top Centre and suspect D.
ReplyDeleteA healthy Whitney, a solid Gilbert, and a progressing Peckham and Petry gives us a start. Add a player like Larsson to go with Marincin, and at least one of Plante or Teubert becoming that mean stay at home d man, then we have a good d in 3 years. The issue is 3 years is a long time, so to bridge the gap signing or dealing for a top 4 dman is probably the most important thing this management group can do this off season. Add a top 4 dman, and the progression of Petry and Peckham, and next year will be a huge improvement with that alone, not to mention adding a Larsson.
WG: I'm curious about MPS at C. I know he played D as a youngster but haven't heard anything about C.
ReplyDeleteWhat's you're theory? Or is that how much you dislike the idea of Hall at C?
This sounds a lot like a "curb your enthusiasm" post after a fortunate 10 game stretch. Probably a good idea.
ReplyDeleteLT, NYC is an incredible place and I think you'll appreciate it all the more with the stories you already have. Visiting there, one is really struck with history of the place. It's very easy to get caught up in the New Yorkers' pride. Take the kids. :)
I'm with WG. I think PRV has the toolkit to be a really effective C in the game. The way he backchecks is phenomenal, he has speed to get to both ends of the ice effectively and he makes passes which make his linemates look good. I have no idea if he's ever played C before, but it strikes me as a good fit.
ReplyDeleteThat's my digoses and I'm sticking to it.
I'm intrigued by this notion of Paajarvi at C, but much like the comments made about Hall, if you put him there, you're going to be sacrificing his speed and ability to drive the play. That is, unless you put him with wingers (like Hall) who could quickly move the puck with him.
ReplyDeleteThe last couple games we've seen some absolutely beautiful passes from 91 lead directly to goals. If he could handle the greater defensive responsibilities, that playmaking might find even more opportunity at C.
That said, I think Renney might have the old Messier model in his head and has locked in on Hall as the candidate to move.
Really? Moving wingers to centre this late in their careers?
ReplyDeleteHow many times has this been done successfully since Hall of Famer Messier did it?
Seems pretty late in a career, given how hard it is to be successful in the NHL even in your natural position.
Well Hall has played C in junior and now in the NHL. I can't speak to the Swede's experience at the position.
ReplyDeleteGood point. I forgot about Hall playing C in junior.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely great article LT! Expect that you are right that it may actually be more like 1 or 2 Plans not simply the 4 to 5 years wait KLowe announced for the first time on Hockey day in Canada.
ReplyDeleteAHL development is absolutely key. No Q I would send Peckham down for AHL playoffs if he is eligible as an example.
Agree with leaving Hall on LW, shift he got hurt on he flew up RW on D man who was saying to self--- "back up, back up, back up way faster, .... shit, HELP"! MPS definitely has the mindset to be a superb defensive center and in 2 strides can catch up to wingers on attack. Plus he will, at some point, play at 210 lbs.
Love the optimism but isn't an awful lot of it predicated on the kids in junior continuing their progression unabated? Most of the young forwards already at OKC, save the Finn, are now suspects not prospects so the kids from 08 and 09 draft HAVE to perform to make this work
HOPE is NOT the kids of the false summer of 08. They are the real deal and will in time play and succeed against the Sedins of the world. We also need to get bigger up front.
Could not imagine Howson doing it in the summer but if Hemsky+++++ could get us Johannsen if we are committed to a 4 yr rebuild, I would do it. Do not see how with Nash as centerpiece of their team that they can wait 3-4 years for Johannsen to develop
WG: I'm curious about MPS at C. I know he played D as a youngster but haven't heard anything about C.
ReplyDeleteWhat's you're theory? Or is that how much you dislike the idea of Hall at C?
I don't dislike Hall at C, I just think his ability to take the outlet pass, put the D on the heels and open up the ice are not replicated much on the roster, and he's really, really good at it, so why take away that great weapon?
When you watch him live, you see him cheat a bit by breaking out of the zone the second an Oiler has possession in the Dzone and he forces the opposing D to go with him.
You'll lose that if you move him to C and he's low in the zone.
Sure you could teach MPS to do that, but why not harness their instincts instead of trying to change them?
Imagine you could draft a 6'3 200lb 19 year old who has excellent defensive instincts, who is a very good passer, skates like the wind and has a good shot. He'd be very close to 1st overall. (actually sounds a bit like Couterier, but there is no way Couterier skates like 91.)
91 is already the 1st forward on the back check on his line, and tends to come back low in the Dzone (leaving his man open up high too often).
He is rarely in Hall's spot of taking the first pass out of the zone and stretching the D. He's more often the 2nd or 3rd Forward to touch the puck. When he does do his rushes, its often to clean up a failed break out where he circles back, picks up the puck and skates because his line mates are high in the neutral zone and can't take a pass in their position.
He pretty much plays wing like a center already, teach him face offs (will have to hire someone outside the org) and he'll be a serious 2 way threat for years.
His instincts, size, speed, passing ability and decent shot all say Center to me.
Drafting a centre would be most tempting if SC and RNH were merged into one player
ReplyDeleteIf you mesh those two players, the end result looks more like MPS than anything else.
MPS maybe doesn't quite have RNH's passing ability (from what I've seen its almost Gretzky like, and I never ever compare anyone to 99), but the rest of the package is there.
Time after time both Hall and Paajarvi come motoring up the ice and wind up with no options because their linemates are still chugging up ice. Seems obvious to me. At least worth a try.
ReplyDeletePaajarvi would be a better option because he already thinks defensively. Not a biggie as long as someone comes back to cover and Paajarvi already does that.
The three centers available including Strome each have liabilities, size, skating, mostly youth and time.
Strategy is not finding the road that leads to success but that all roads lead to success.
Would the Extra first rounder plus gets us Bogo
ReplyDeleteHow about The 2 picks from LA
I am just looking to take the pressure off of "Our man Stu"
Now, there are assets in place that haven't been here, ever. This team has been a hope and a prayer since the glory days. To state the obvious, they are building a foundation and OKC is a vital piece.
ReplyDeletebang on.
LT has allways stated the 7 years from draft to gage it. But a teams veteran base should be from 25 to 32 year olds (8 to 14) years after drafts. That would be 1997 to 2003
1997: Chimera (RD5)
1998: Horcoff (4)
1999: Comrie (3)
2000: winchester (2)
2001: Hemsky (1)
2002: JDD (2) Stoll (2) Greene (2)
2003: Pouliot (1) Jacques (2) Brodziak (7)
You see the holes we traded away.
Next year our 2004 draft is 25YR
If we can hold on to the good we have 5 years to go. For a veteran base from.
Dubnyk (04)
Reddox (04)
Cogliano (05)
Petry (06)
Peckham (06)
Gagner (07)
Omark (07)
If we can hold on to the good. We have 5-7 years to go. At that point the draft talent will cover for ufa losses.
tweet from jamie lundmark. lander is the real deal and nhl ready. best young player i've ever played with..
ReplyDeletewow
To me, Sean Couturier will fix a lot of problems in the future.
ReplyDeleteHe's a big center, can score, can pass and scores at a bigger clip than RNH.
With that he's leading his team (And maybe the CHL?) in +- with +50 (2nd on his team is +32).
He's not just a good scorer, he's a dominant player. Exactly what you ned as your N1 center. You can't allow a lot of goals when you're +50.
The kid has a similar pace then Stamkos, and is bigger and better defensively. No way we can miss that.
At least not for a guy who has so many question marks, lesser size and scoring.
Couturier is my choice at #1. He's a big man with crazy skills.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about the stated need for a tough winger to ride shotgun with Hall and was trying to come up with some examples of current players in the NHL that could fit that role.
ReplyDeleteLucic, Clowe, Horton, Bertuzzi (old), maybe Kessler? How many of these types of players exist in the NHL? How easy would it be to acquire one? Is it really an option or more just a fantasy that would be way to expensive to fill?
Landeskog makes sense if the Oilers are not totally sold on Larsson as I believe RNH will fill a need but might take so long to mature that we would be better using our 1st round pick next year to get our #1 C. Maybe they draft Landeskog and use Hemsky to either move up to draft Strome or manage to lure Johansen out of CLB.
I trust MBS to make the right call, I just hope Tambo listens to him a little more if MBS is convinced they need to move up to pick someone like Strome. Dman we can always sign once the kids start putting up huge numbers (and the optics of Edmonton improve) and you don't need a true #1 dman to win IMO.
I can't figure how some people call this a weak draft with so many forwards in the 90-100 points range.
ReplyDeleteThat and Ryan Murphy
Well it is true the latter part of the 1st round looks like garbage.
ReplyDeleteEspecially with Jacobs and his 0,66 PPG clip.
Teams won't learn those guys will almost never be top 6 NHL players.
In reference to Cactus' point a long time ago - you're bang on, people don't trust ST and Lowe's presence worsens things. I've said it many times, these guys have made their bed and as a result whatever they do is met with derision even if its unfair.
ReplyDeleteFpb- agreed I think this is going to be a good draft, some have SC out of the top five now. They may be goofy but still it speaks to quality.
Couturier is on Rogers tonight btw, but it's tape delayed to 11PM on Rogers SNW because of the Flambes.
ReplyDeleteThx, LT. I haven't seen him play enough this year. Gonna watch a bit of that.
ReplyDeletespOILer: Yeah, I'm going to tape it too. The thing no one has really told me is whether or not he uses his size at all. You know, he could be that big and not physical.
ReplyDeleteThat would probably mean the Oilers would pass on him imo.
LT: Courturier seems like he fits our needs quite well and his boxcars appear very strong. Why is it then that guys like McKenzie, and now Button, seem to be moving him down their draft boards? Is this a case of familiarity breeding contempt, or is there something to it?
ReplyDeleteLT: That would be a BS reasoning.
ReplyDeleteVincent Lecavalier and Joe Thorton both are big man who don't use theyr size that much and they still would be clear cut N1 center on the Oil.
Especially Thornton who was chased out of Boston for that exact reason.
To me if Sean Couturier played for say, the Kelowna Rockets, he would be the clear cut N1.
Coutourier was born in Phoenix AZ so hands off: he's destined to become a Jet.
ReplyDeleteIcecastle: Wut? He was born in Bathurst New Brunswick.
ReplyDeleteFPB: You are wrong.
ReplyDeleteI can't really get behind all the optimism about this team being ready to run in the near future.
ReplyDeleteSo many things can happen - players on the big club can get hurt like 4 did or down in the juniors like Pitlick did - and when you're banking on nothing but unproven youth then something's always likely to go wrong.
Plus, I like 4-14 but we're not talking about Sid and Geno either.
The D's in shambles and we need a big centre and a big winger in order to replace 83 when he's dealt.
and returns like Teubert isn't what's really required.
One big injury to a kid that's here or to this year's lottery pick and we're so far down the rabbithole that even 4 and 14 might seem as few playoff games as did 83.
Icecastles: No u?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=115908
http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/75136/la_id/1/player_id/114495/profile_id/152927/season_id/135415/ss_id/57000/
Croomba: Some native australian dance.
FPB: those sources are incorrect. Even his player profile on his own team's page lists him as being born in Phoenix. He moved to Bathurst when he was a young kid, but he wasn't born there. Check a few more sources.
ReplyDeleteouckb: another place Sean Couturier wasn't born.
Incidentally, the Hockey Canada page you referenced says bathurst is his hometown, not his place of birth. Even your own sources aren't backing you up.
ReplyDeleteIcecastles: Well damn.
ReplyDeleteProunlid: Being wrong about someone's birthplace.
If I continue the reasoning, this means O'Marra will join Radunske in the elite asian league.
You are wrong.
ReplyDeleteIts supposed to be in capital letters with an exclamation point.
I think saddling Hall with the defensive responsbilities of a centre would take away from his unique strength which is his aggressive attacking style. Leave him at wing.
ReplyDeleteCourturier already has defensive awareness. Just draft him and stick him between Hall and Eberle.
Some mornings I wake up on Team Courturier. Some days I wake up on Team Larsson.
Dennis: I don't think many think this is going to be a quick turnaround. Miles and miles and miles.
ReplyDeleteRe: Pitlick. Injury will keep him out 6-8 weeks but he played a lot this season. Broken ankle but hopefully he'll be fine next fall.
LONG TERM the team should be improved, but the Oilers keep moving back the competition clock so who knows when they'll decide to join the race.
Im gonna blue sky here for a second, but with Pittsburghs cap situation, does anyone see the possibility of a sign and trade between EDM/PIT ?
ReplyDeleteEDM extend Hemsky 5 years at $5M per, and send LAs pick + Hemmer for Geno ? Maybe we have to add Gagner?
Hopefully Hemsky is leveraged into an actual NHLer but like I said, blue skying.
LT, I suspect he uses his size and reach to shield the puck well, hold guys off, push them off... but doubt he plays as in your face game as Schenn.
ReplyDeleteAll else being equal, I take the D.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if all else is equal, but your #1 D is going to chew up more minutes in a game than the 1C will, so the ++ effect if either are true talents, you're going to get a little bit more of it each game. How do you look at 2006 without Pronger in it?
Hard to replace if Larson is actually the goods.
I don't really see Paajarvi at center. Not on a scoring line. He'd likely be a wonderful checking line center, assuming he can win a draw (he's taken 5 this year and lost 4 of them so I don't know what that tells us). He just isn't aggressive enough to be a scoring line center.
ReplyDeleteI know we're just throwing stuff out there, but Eberle is a smart cookie and does have C experience.
ReplyDeleteEberle would be my choice at C too, except for his size.
ReplyDeleteEberle seems the most cerebal of the kids, but I suspect he would be another Gagner and we already have one of those.
ReplyDeleteThe wife and I went to NYC last August. Spectacular city and mind blowing to someone who grew up on a farm in Alberta. Be prepared to do a lot of walking, Central Park alone took 6 hours to walk through, the bottom of our feet were a hurting mess by the end of each day.
ReplyDeleteI can fill you in on some useful advice when you do decide to go. You know where to find me.
Defensemen seem to be less of a sure thing, and a miss in the top 5 is gonna hurt. Just looking back since 2004, here are the defensemen drafted in the top 5:
ReplyDelete2004: Cam Barker (3rd)
2005: Jack Johnson (3rd)
2006: Erik Johnson (1st)
2007: Thomas Hickey (4th)
Karl Alzner (5th)
2008: Drew Doughty (2nd)
Zach Bogosian (3rd)
Alex Petriangelo (4th)
Luke Schenn (5th)
2009: Victor Hedman (2nd)
2010: Eric Gudbranson (3rd)
Its almost a given that your defenseman will not really carry the mail until hes into his 2nd contract, and likely close to becoming an UFA. Save for the exceptional talents like Doughty. Then theres the Weber types drafted later.
ReplyDeleteThe following draft is supposedly rich in defencemen.
ReplyDeleteA Nashville win tonight puts LA in 9th place. So theres that to cheer for. Most fun I've been having all season. FML.
ReplyDeleteThe only way Edmonton is going to get an elite defenseman is to draft him.
ReplyDeleteThe downside risk of Larsson seems limited. He might not become elite, but he is a really good bet to be top 4. So he provides the best risk reward for drafting a defenseman high that the Oilers are likely to get.
Godot, I agree with that thinking but the same philosophy could be applied to SC.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else concerned about Marincin that past bit? Is Acolatse affecting his numbers?
Multudep... hair product made from extract of mulberry, and tulip petals
Horcoff is on page for 51 points, 17 goals, and a + on this team, despite facing the toughest comp. He can alse take faceoffs reasonably well. Faces the toughest Qual Comp and Is amongst the top 6 of players in RelCorsi. And he's a solid PK'er.
ReplyDeleteI hereby submit, just to piss Traktor off, that given that Horcoff signed in his UFA years, he is currently fairly close to fair value at a 5.5MM cap hit. A 4.75MM cap hit would be fair value for certain, and given that Edmonton is a losing team with crap management and cold weather, we should add a small Edmonton premium to all UFA contracts.
I mean he's on a 51 point pace over an 82 game season.
ReplyDeleteHorcoff's injuries might make him a bad signing and will make him nearly impossible to trade.
Marincin trending down must be lack of stamina, long seaseon. Saw a picture of him on another blog - rack of bones. Eastern Europe athletes are noted for lack of stamina due to low protein diet. Klitchko's diet in Atlanta was steak three times a day to where he was sick of it.
ReplyDelete//Godot, I agree with that thinking but the same philosophy could be applied to SC.//
ReplyDeleteWhich is why on some mornings, I am Team Larsson, and on some mornings, I am on Team Courturier.
Bos8
ReplyDeleteTell that to Peter Stastny lol. And that was a Commie diet.
Weleds... what we don' do.
As an aside, for those hoping for a losing road trip, Philly just got demolished by the Rangers this afternoon, 7-0.
ReplyDeleteCactus: Which probably means that they will lay down a memorable beatdown on the Oilers Tuesday. Whoopee. "Chila", we're not moving out of the bottom 3.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Stastny, he was right about Colorado. They had a good team going and lost faith mostly due to injuries and owners. There's a tragedy in the making.
ReplyDeleteJon: I am hoping that the Oilers remain in the bottom three and given all the injuries, you would think that a flawed AND broken team should be guaranteed to finish last. However, the bottom 5 is filled with similarly flawed and broken teams, some of which can't even compete with the Oilers right now (see Colorado last night). We're talking a lot about drafting Larsson or Couturier or etc. at number 1, but I would not be shocked to see us sitting at #4 come draft time.
ReplyDeleteBos8 said: Eastern Europe athletes are noted for lack of stamina due to low protein diet.
ReplyDeleteCitation needed.
Rocky 4, Icey. All you need to know.
ReplyDeletebut I would not be shocked to see us sitting at #4 come draft time.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to wage a sum upon that.
Pre-lottery draft standings of course.
Ic
ReplyDeleteI was in Atlanta for a month with the Ukrainian Olympic Team as Expediter/Translater. The coaches bemoaned the fact that their athletes lacked stamina due to protein.
One more thing about the re-rebuild. (We should be in the building phase now, adding and keeping good players, but instead, we decided to be in a continual restart and re-burning phase.)
ReplyDeleteIt seems management thinks you can only get white whales from free agency. It's white whales or nothing. So we throw cash and picks at Hossa, Vanek, Nylander, Khabi, and even to a lesser extent Penner. When that doesn't work, they conclude, well free agency doesn't work at all, so let's avoid it entirely. They don't seem to understand that free agency is about getting bargain veteran players, players that can fill in a hole or two -say, the PK. I mean, you can screw up free agency, but that doesn't mean you don't use it. You just use it carefully and wisely. (You can screw up building through the draft, too. You need to be wise there, too.)
That's what worries me. Even if you start building a winner, you need to be able to use free agency well in order to maintain your team in the cap world. You need to find a few bargains, maybe even take on a couple of overpays if they help fill a hole. You can't plug all the holes on the roster with unproven -perhaps talented- prospects.
You're going to lose guys to UFA. You need to be able to add a few too.
If Columbus ends up just out of the playoffs do you trade them Gagner, LAK 1st + for Johannsen? They have a good center ready to help Nash now and the world famous magic beans.
ReplyDeleteWe get a 1C and can focus on Landskog or Larson
TOJ: What?
ReplyDeleteWe'd be GETTING magic beans.
Johansen fails to produce more than some guys in the top 10 this year.
The only thing that made his stock go up so much is the WJC, and Portland Winterhawks thingy.
Sam Gagner is becoming quality, let's not trade it for a suspect.
Save Gagner for the Stastny trade if only for the Johnny One Notes on this blog. "The Oilers will rebuild forever". That's my Fantasy Manager decision.
ReplyDeleteTweets from Ryan Aber who writes sports out of OKC @ryaber has some interesting stuff on Hartikainen.
ReplyDelete"Todd Nelson on Teemu Hartikainen: "This guy keeps progressing the way he has, he's not going to be in the AHL next year." "
"Hartikainen had some really nifty moves that set up Moran's OT winner and his line played every other shift in the 3rd and OT tonight"
"@CopperandBlue Yeah, not exactly a secret but he's been really happy with Hartikainen's progression lately."
I wonder how much of the clearing of the house exodus we've seen is coming from culture change and not so much timeline.
ReplyDeleteAbilatch: takes both male and female keys.
It seems management thinks you can only get white whales from free agency. It's white whales or nothing. So we throw cash and picks at Hossa, Vanek, Nylander, Khabi, and even to a lesser extent Penner.
ReplyDeleteThat's not fair - they also sign AHL depth and extremely tall defensemen who can't actually play defense. And less tall defensemen who can't actually play defense, now that I think about it.
As for Hall at centre, I'm not outright opposed, but I'm cautious: we should be building the team around Taylor Hall, not trying to cram him into our position of need. Even if he could play centre, surely there's some reason he's played the wing to this point in his career?
And LT, New York is terrific - best city in the world (though I've yet to visit San Francisco, or anywhere outside of North American and Europe). Go to the Magnolia Bakery, and get the banana pudding, no matter how much people tell you that the place is all about cupcakes.
Oh, and to echo Raine Snow, please do feel free to contact me if you want a lengthy e-mail full of rambling advice on visiting New York - steve.smith@unb.ca. I'm dead serious.
ReplyDeleteI really like Zenon Konopka as a potental 4th line centre. He's cheap, tough as nails & sticks up for his teammates constantly. He would be the best face off guy on the team by far and he can take a regular shift which makes him way more useful then Big Mac.
ReplyDeleteHaving a guy that's actually really good at face offs to practice against would do wonders for Gagner, Cogs and others to improve their own skills.
kris said...
ReplyDelete"Horcoff is on page for 51 points, 17 goals, and a + on this team, despite facing the toughest comp. He can alse take faceoffs reasonably well. Faces the toughest Qual Comp and Is amongst the top 6 of players in RelCorsi. And he's a solid PK'er.
I hereby submit, just to piss Traktor off, that given that Horcoff signed in his UFA years, he is currently fairly close to fair value at a 5.5MM cap hit. A 4.75MM cap hit would be fair value for certain, and given that Edmonton is a losing team with crap management and cold weather, we should add a small Edmonton premium to all UFA contracts."
We'll let's see Kris:
Kesler is on pace for 72 points, 41 goals, and is +21. He also manages to win 56.7% of his faceoffs, faces the toughest competition, his GAON/60 4V5 is 5.86, compared to Horcoff's 15.40 (not solid, laughably bad)and has a cap hit of $5M for the next 5 years (well into UFA status).
Horcoff is currently much closer to Manny Malhotra in value at $2.5M although I would take Malhotra over Horcoff in a heartbeat because he's younger, cheaper and far more durable.
Oddly enough, Horcoff and Malhotra have the same number of goals this season, 9, although Scorecoff does have 2 extra assists aided in no small measure by being fed oodles of PP time.
$3M doesn't buy you much these days I guess.
@ DSF
ReplyDeleteHorcoff is close to Mike Fisher in talent and 4.7 is still high 4.0-4.3 IMO
Teemu H. could be the dandy find of a 6th rounder who can actually play a top nine role.
ReplyDeleteCan he kill penalties, as well? Doubtful I guess given that the only knock on him seems to be his skating.
He'll probably get the bump again next year though because I wouldn't be shocked to see him and Hamilton and Lander in next year's top 12.
Renney's a big 13 fan so maybe he'll stump for him and 85 should stick around just for his PKing, shouldn't he?
Pencil in 28 as well.
Imagining we take Larsson and that 83's traded for magic beans and/or players even too young for the Oilers, how does this look for next year:
4-10-14
91-89-23
Hamilton-13-28
Teemu H-Lander-85
that should put the Oilers back in the bottom ten picks for sure and that seems to be the objective.
Horcoff is currently much closer to Manny Malhotra in value at $2.5M although I would take Malhotra over Horcoff in a heartbeat because he's younger, cheaper and far more durable.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, Horcoff and Malhotra have the same number of goals this season, 9, although Scorecoff does have 2 extra assists aided in no small measure by being fed oodles of PP time.
Games played this year:
Malholtra - 66
Horcoff - 43
Sorry to let facts get in the way of your attempted comparison, but Horcoff's a better hockey player.
Worth 3 million more? Probably not. 1.5-2 million? Absolutely.
Dennis: That line-up is about as soft as parilly at high noon in the Sahara in July.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, it's great.
SumOil said...
ReplyDelete@ DSF
Horcoff is close to Mike Fisher in talent and 4.7 is still high 4.0-4.3 IMO
Fisher is a $4.2M cap hit but his contract expires when he is 33.
Horcoff will be 37.
Also DSF, I think Woodguy already showed that Horcoff PK GA/60 number to be the product of some historically shitty goaltending behind him when he was playing significant PK minutes.
ReplyDeleteIf you're going to troll, you might want to try and find some better anti-10 evidence that isn't easily disproven by the simple introduction of "context".
Pretty much any intelligent Oilers fan is able to recognize that Horcoff, producing at the level of a 2nd line center and putting up a plus on a bad hockey team while taking on the toughs, isn't what "ails" this hockey team, regardless of if he's overpaid by 1-1.5 million. Arguing he's only worth 2.5 million is simply absurd.
bruce: no worries, bud.
ReplyDelete2 will be back as the 6th dman and 5 and 49 will be in the top five as well.
all kinds of toughness there my son!!
Note: I threw that last thing to make Bruce homesick;)
DSF:
ReplyDelete"They have thwarted by argument! I must change the argument. I know, AGE!!"
bacconde: I googled conde, then google imaged conde and I was happy that I did.
That's what worries me. Even if you start building a winner, you need to be able to use free agency well in order to maintain your team in the cap world. You need to find a few bargains, maybe even take on a couple of overpays if they help fill a hole. You can't plug all the holes on the roster with unproven -perhaps talented- prospects.
ReplyDeleteThat's one of the reasons I'm so bitter (other than paying for season tickets for 5 years of shitty hockey)
I held out hope that v3.0 would get good value for 83 and/or 27 and eventually start to plug holes with FA's.
I don't expect them to start trying to plug holes with FA's until 12/13, but given their track record of smart moves (much more bad than good at this point in time), I've got nothing to hang my hope on other than kids or picks that are 4-6 years from being actual NHL players (if ever, see injuries: being a bitch)
14 and 4 are unreal, but you cannot expect every rookie to turn out like these guys.
There's something for "Losing is Winning rebuild crowd".
You can make an argument that the best young player in the Oilers organization is 14 and he was 22nd overall.
Sure drafting higher increases the odds of getting a good player, but its far, far from certain.
@Dennis: I would've thought after the last few years of having bigger tougher teams running our show that you would be starting to get slightly fed up with it by now. I know I am.
ReplyDeleteI've got high hopes that Hartikainen might have enough actual talent to play more than four minutes a night, for sure we need a couple of "hard men" in the top nine. (No, not that.)
unca miltie's post earlier is pretty encouraging.
ReplyDeleteJamie Lundmark said Lander is the best young player hes ever played with.
Assuming we draft a center this year,that gives us potentially 4 outscoring centers by 2012-13 ('11 draftee in the soft mins role)
Gagners days as an Oiler may be numbered if Tambo expects Lander to break camp with EDM.
HBomb said...
ReplyDeleteGames played this year:
Malholtra - 66
Horcoff - 43
Sorry to let facts get in the way of your attempted comparison, but Horcoff's a better hockey player.
Worth 3 million more? Probably not. 1.5-2 million? Absolutely.
Horcoff
GFON/60: 2.50
GAON/60: 2.10
Diff: .40
Malhotra
GFON/60: 2.18
GAON/60: 1.75
Diff: .44
Aren't we in agreement that giving up less than you get is a the prime directive for assessing a hockey player?
Malhotra wins by that maxim.
He also has a FO% of 62.6 compared to Horcoff's 49.
BTW, Manny just scored his 10th and 11th at 5V5. He doesn't get much PP time.
Horcoff has 16 even strength points this season.
Malhotra has 20.
But never let the facts stand in the way of a good story. :)
This ones for you Bruce :)
ReplyDeleteDSF: Did it occur to you that Vancouver has a teency weency bit more defence and goaltending than the Oilers?
ReplyDeleteFFS, man, there's no comparison.
Both Malhotra and Horcoff are riding some crazy on ice sv%. but Malhotra more than Horcoff.
ReplyDeleteDSF: So Horcoff and Malholtra have roughly the same differential at 5-on-5, yet Horcoff's done it playing the toughs on the worst team in the league, yet Malholtra's done it playing second-tier quality of opposition (source: Desjardins) on one of the best teams in the league?
ReplyDeleteThat is, simply put, not an apples-to-apples comparison. So no, Malholtra does NOT win by that measure, no matter how much your warped perspective might want to think otherwise.
I'll give you that Malholtra's a good faceoff man though. Gotta have that in your game if you're going to survive as a 3rd line center in this league, which Malholtra and his 0.38 points per game this season (and career high of 38 points in a season) very much is. Nothing more.
Horcoff, on the other hand, and his 0.7 points per game post lockout (which translates to somewhere around 57 points in an 82 game season) is a top six center who can play tough opposition AND produce offense at a reasonable level. A higher class of player, in other words.
So Malholtra has 25% more even strength points in over 50% more games, eh? You think I'm impressed by that? Not particularly....other than the fact you're helping to make my case for me, of course. Keep digging that hole, there will be room for you AND Traktor by the time you're done.
phona: The fake Derek Zona.
Take away Horcoff's undeserved PP time and it's a sad, sad story.
ReplyDeleteQuick quiz...how many 5V5 goals has Horcoff scored in the last two seasons?
@ Hbomb
ReplyDelete"fake derek zona"
ROFL
See DSF if you say that Malhotra provides more value at 2.5 mil than Horcoff does at 5.5, then you are bang on right. but Malhotra is not a superior player to Horcoff.
ReplyDeleteTake away Horcoff's undeserved PP time and it's a sad, sad story.
ReplyDeleteUndeserved based on what, other than your clearly biased opinion?
He's one of the best two offensive centres on the team and can actually win a faceoff about half the time. I'd say his inclusion on the Oiler PP, given the current roster make-up, is more than justified.
Better him out there than Andrew Cogliano, that's for sure.
Bruce said...
ReplyDeleteDSF: Did it occur to you that Vancouver has a teency weency bit more defence and goaltending than the Oilers?
FFS, man, there's no comparison.
Of course it occurred to me.
Did it ever occur to you that players have different roles on different teams?
If Horcoff was a Canuck would he supplant either Sedin or Kesler on their top 6?
NO.
Would Vancouver be happy paying an injury prone player in his declining years $5.5M for another 4 seasons when he can't win more faceoffs than he loses?
Would they be happy with his 5V% production?
NO.
Would he get any PP time?
NO.
Would Vancouver rather pay Malhotra $2.5M to do the same job?
YES.
Time to stop huffing the gas guys.
In a cap world, you need to get production from every dollar.
@ DSF
ReplyDeleteAll that shows is thae Vancouver have superior players for the job and their GM doesnt overpay for services. If horcoff was a 3rd line center on that team, I am certain that his numbers would be superior to that of Malhotra. I am talking about things like rel corsi.
SumOil said...
ReplyDelete@ DSF
All that shows is that Vancouver have superior players for the job and their GM doesn't overpay for services. If Horcoff was a 3rd line center on that team, I am certain that his numbers would be superior to that of Malhotra. I am talking about things like rel corsi."
Rel Corsi is a pale way to examine a player.
Thing is, no team (other than the Oilers) will employ a $5.5M third line centre.
Would Vancouver employ him for $2.5M over Malthotra? Maybe.
I wouldn't because Malhotra's skill set is more suited to that role.
Everything else is just drivel.
In a cap world, you need to get production from every dollar.
ReplyDeleteSays a guy who trolls Edmonton Oiler boards.
A team which spent $45MM or, 26 out of 30 teams in the NHL.
LOL.
DSF:
""They have thwarted by argument! I must change the argument. I know, THECAP!!!"
Thing is, no team (other than the Oilers) will employ a $5.5M third line centre.
ReplyDeleteActually, we're paying 5.5 million for a guy who is a second line center that can play tough opposition. Big difference that you refuse to recognize.
I don't think there's too many teams out there that have a 3rd line center who has a 0.7 points-per-game average going back to 2005-06.
WG: Yeah, I'm bitter about it all too because I don't think we necessarily needed to rebuild..Again.
ReplyDeleteit's easy for MGMT to peddle another rebuild because that gives them more time before they think they should be judged.
and it's easy for some fans to buy that line because then they have something to tell themselves or an excuse for why the team isn't competing.
@ Hbomb
ReplyDeleteBy his production, he is a top 6 center. If he is in 180 players in p/g then he is a top 6 player in the league.
He is not playing as a third line center here.
Your problem with horcoff is his cap hit, but that is not Horcoff's fault. Blame that on Lowe. So if you dont have any other problem with him than his cap hit, then let it be.
Also regarding Malhitra and ES production, he was used as a top line center one year in Columbus, he was given extensive PP time, did not do shit.
So let me ask you, you dont believe in possession metric? by saying rel corsi is not a good thing? We have already established qual comp and qual team, all that is left is rel corsi!
http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/edmonton-oilers/Oilers+will+keep+building+through+draft/4392843/story.html
ReplyDeletethe Puppet talks about Pitlick as a pivot even though he's played wing all year, hasn't he?
also hints towards drafting for need.
I imagine that means Larsson.
Sum,
ReplyDeleteYou are going into far too much detail.
DSF trolls for reaction, not discussion.
WG
ReplyDeleteyeah i see that...
Also my comment was for DSF and nto Hbomb..sorry about that
Dennis: I think "need" would also apply to a big, top-line centre. Which would likely mean Courturier, or maybe RNH. Of course, if they end up moving Hemsky as so many people keep alleging, then we'd need some help on the wing too, which might mean Landeskog.
ReplyDeleteSo... has Tambo really told us anything new? :)
Sam Gagner seems to be finally ''Progressing'' offensively.
ReplyDeleteHe's got his best ever GFON/60 and P/60 of his young career.
He's going to be a fine, fine center.
@fpb
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. Lets see if he hits 60 points or not!
Tali: A quarian engineer in mass effect 1 and 2. Z potential love interest of Shepard
Blogger Woodguy said...
ReplyDeleteIn a cap world, you need to get production from every dollar.
Says a guy who trolls Edmonton Oiler boards.
A team which spent $45MM or, 26 out of 30 teams in the NHL.
LOL.
DSF:
""They have thwarted by argument! I must change the argument. I know, THECAP!!!"
Wasting $5.5M on a third line centre who can barely keep his head above water at EV's, is a pathetic PP performer and a disaster 4V5 and can't win more faceoffs than he loses is not a recipe for success.
Wouldn't even be a good deal if he was 5 years younger and not an injury waiting to happen.
Sail on Michigan Tragedy.
SumOil said...
ReplyDelete@ Hbomb
By his production, he is a top 6 center. If he is in 180 players in p/g then he is a top 6 player in the league.
He is not playing as a third line center here.
Your problem with horcoff is his cap hit, but that is not Horcoff's fault. Blame that on Lowe. So if you dont have any other problem with him than his cap hit, then let it be.
Also regarding Malhitra and ES production, he was used as a top line center one year in Columbus, he was given extensive PP time, did not do shit.
So let me ask you, you dont believe in possession metric? by saying rel corsi is not a good thing? We have already established qual comp and qual team, all that is left is rel corsi!"
Possesion only counts if the puck ends up in the net.
I agree all that is left is rel corsi.
It's quite sad actually.
What is Malhotra's rel corsi?
Does it matter?
No, it doesn't.
DSF: Horcoff's doing so bad he's the guy the Oilers score the most per 60 minutes of PP.
ReplyDeletePossesion only counts if the puck ends up in the net.
ReplyDeleteEverything only counts if the puck ends up in the net. By that logic, the quality of a player is measured exclusively - no matter what the sample size - by what effect he has on goals, because any play that doesn't result in a goal should be disregarded as irrelevant.
I don't think you're that stupid. Please don't prove me wrong.
DSF: 50% on the dot isn't bad when no one else on the team is any threat at all. There are a lot of guys who would post career seasons jumping over the boards after the Sedin's load the bases. The other team's pitching staff is already a quivering mess.
ReplyDeleteHorcoff didn't begin the season on a bad team, he began the season on a team in crisis. Like the Grey Wizard conducting Frodo and Sam and Merry and Pippin into the battle for Middle Earth. For the money, you'd like to have a White Wizard. But I have few complaints about Horcoff the Grey.
Also, you can't add Malhotra's faceoff percentage to his other numbers, since his faceoff prowess is already reflected in the boxcars and differential. Isn't it?
You can do a lot worse than Horcoff for pointing talented rookies in the right direction when the coaching policy has mostly been to throw them in at the deep end.
Put it another way, he's getting paid like Mr Incredible, but what we have here is a serviceable Elastigirl. So tell me all about Malhotra's daycare skills. I'm all ears.
"Steve Smith" said...
ReplyDeletePossesion only counts if the puck ends up in the net.
" Everything only counts if the puck ends up in the net. By that logic, the quality of a player is measured exclusively - no matter what the sample size - by what effect he has on goals, because any play that doesn't result in a goal should be disregarded as irrelevant.
I don't think you're that stupid. Please don't prove me wrong."
No one said that.
rel corsi is a measure of how much better a player is than the Sisters of the Poor on his team.
It's totally useless for determiniing a players actual value since it is confined to, in the case of the Oilers, a bunch of 30th place chimps.
Horcoff may look all world playing for the Bad News Bears.
Doesn't mean much.
He's a grossly overpaid third line centre on virtually every other team in the league.
On top of that, he's injury prone and will be an old man by the time his contract expires.
If you disagree, tell me which teams would trade their first line centre for him straight up.
C'mon now.
Sail on Michigan tragedy. That was good.
ReplyDeleteDennis: Thanks for that link. Scottie Upshall. Would he come here? You'd have to overpay him imo, probably double the Ryan Jones deal with two extra years tacked on.
DeadmanWaking said...
ReplyDeleteDSF: 50% on the dot isn't bad when no one else on the team is any threat at all. There are a lot of guys who would post career seasons jumping over the boards after the Sedin's load the bases. The other team's pitching staff is already a quivering mess.
That's a load of codswallop.
Malhotra: 62%
Kesler: 56.8%
Sedin: 52.7%
Less than 50% is a mess no matter where you find it.
FFS Rick Rypien was 64.3% before his untimely demise.
God rest his soul.
KLF,
ReplyDeleteIf you think Kesler would sign as a UFA, for anything less than 6.5MM, after scoring 40 goals, especially if he's signing with a crappy club, in a city that isn't exactly Vancouver, you're a fool.
I bet it would take 7.5 for Edmonton to sign him if he were UFA tomorrow, unless the deal had a tail on it to bring down the ca hit.
Anyone has a beautiful baseball picture?
ReplyDeleteI'm setting up a league of MBL 2k11 and I can't seem to find one for my site.
Tambo on the rebuild
ReplyDeletehttp://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Oilers+will+keep+building+through+draft/4392843/story.html
kris said...
ReplyDeleteKLF,
"If you think Kesler would sign as a UFA, for anything less than 6.5MM, after scoring 40 goals, especially if he's signing with a crappy club, in a city that isn't exactly Vancouver, you're a fool.
I bet it would take 7.5 for Edmonton to sign him if he were UFA tomorrow, unless the deal had a tail on it to bring down the ca hit."
See, the thing is, Gillis went all in on a King...Lowe went all in on a 10.
Gillis already had a pair of Kings in his hand.
Lowe had a 10 and tried to hit an inside straight.
Predictably, he ended up with a 10, a 7 and a 6.
His best card is a 10...Gillis has three Kings.
Since he didn't overpay for his Kings, he also has a pair of 10's on defense.
A full house beats a 10, a 7 a 6 a, 5 and 4 every time.
UHF,
ReplyDeleteThat's irrelevant and stupid.
Horcoff is an excellent two way player. Right now Kesler looks even better and is underpaid.
They're both expensive. Horcoff would command, sans injuries, at least 4.75MM; I'd say over 5,25 to sign on with a loser like Edmonton.
But the injuries are a killer, killer problem. They would drive his salary way down.
Just posting the same article on the rebuild that PJOil did, but with a link
ReplyDeletehttp://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Oilers+will+keep+building+through+draft/4392843/story.html
Clearly the braintrust felt that it was important to clarify the message. Next year the goal is to make the playoffs (or be in the hunt) and the team will look for 'transitional' free agents - not stars, but guys who can play and make the team better. They will probably need to overpay a bit to get them here, but if it's a short contract, that just costs Katz money as the cap is not an issue yet.
Initially, when I saw that DSF was sniffing around around I wrote this:
ReplyDelete"DSF you're such a douche.
Hopefully the internet goes down in whatever small town you live in on VCI, you angry old man.
Go back to HF and hang out with your dummy friends.
No one likes you.
No one respects you.
You.
are.
an.
idiot."
But I thought that was too provocative, so instead, as one who enjoys the comments almost as much as the posts, I would petition you all to ignore DSF. Please, he just distracts from real discussion.
Also, DSF... you're a douche.
You douche.
Brendan Morrison 66 9 34 43
ReplyDelete+13
750k
Horcoff isn't even as good as Morrison. Plus the Flames have 4.75M left over.
Grahaeme said...
ReplyDeleteInitially, when I saw that DSF was sniffing around around I wrote this:
"DSF you're such a douche.
Hopefully the internet goes down in whatever small town you live in on VCI, you angry old man.
Go back to HF and hang out with your dummy friends.
No one likes you.
No one respects you.
You.
are.
an.
idiot."
But I thought that was too provocative, so instead, as one who enjoys the comments almost as much as the posts, I would petition you all to ignore DSF. Please, he just distracts from real discussion.
Also, DSF... you're a douche.
You douche.
That is easily the most compelling argument I've ever seen that Horcoff is a legit #1C.
Good work.
Keep it up.
You have friends here.
DSF: Like you do.
ReplyDeleteChina: Self explanatory.
lol
ReplyDeleteDon't go over the holidays LT, the line-ups are crazy.
ReplyDeleteWell, we all have another 5 years to discover the Wonders of Horcoff.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure he will be among the top 20 centres in the league as soon as his ONSV% reaches league average and he is able to produce the offensive output commensurate with his cap hit.
There really is little doubt that players reach their full potential in their late 30's when they are on their retirement contracts.
This is especially true when they are injury prone and have a history of pulling the chute when things go badly for their team.
It's all good.
Kesler is a pussy.
DSF,
ReplyDeleteYou say Horc is a third line center and then ask to find a team that would trade their first line center straight up for him. Through your ramblings the least you could do is stay consistent.
Im sure there are plenty of teams that would take him as their second line center.
Well that Tambi article kind of verifies what he was saying about 6 picks between periods in the game earlier this week.
ReplyDeleteMatheson wrote...
their goal is to be in the playoff hunt like the Columbus Blue Jackets at this time next year, not out of it on Jan. 1
If this is THE PLAN, the Braintrust MUST go after a 1C with their first pick. Or Hall is movin to C.
They can't rely on their 2012 pick to be that guy. They can't rely on McNeill developing into that guy and despite Huberdeau's ranking on some lists you can't rely on him falling to you either.
DSF: I'm slightly envious. Anytime I've ever posted here (posts which contained well-reasoned arguments) I was generally ignored. I think it's because I don't have a cool hook of a screen name, and I'm not 'part of the group'. At least you're getting noticed. Although I'd never want to get noticed in that way, so envy might be the wrong term.
ReplyDeleteHere are some tips:
(a) Bash Lowe and Tambellini constantly - people on this blog (and probably many other blogs) love doing that.
(b) Use lots of math (corsi, relcorsi, and any other permutations; zone start stats; points per minute played; number of shots in the 2nd period when playing on the road against a playoff team, etc)
(c - this one is serious)
Lean towards making constructive, rather than destructive, arguments. I.e build on other bloggers' comments, rather than trying to rip on them constantly
(d - this goes for a lot of people) Accept the fact that Horcoff, while he is overpaid by about $2M, is still a good player, and since we're way under the cap and have trouble attracting big name free agents, that this is very far down the list of things you should be concerned about - if you should have concerns at all, since you, nor anyone else, has any (or extremely limited) ability to influence oiler management
DSF -
ReplyDeleteI literally can't understand your posts. Not because of the content but because of the formatting.
It'd be much appreciated if, instead of what you do now, you put [i] and [/i] around the text you're quoting, replacing the [ and ] with < and >.
their goal is to be in the playoff hunt like the Columbus Blue Jackets at this time next year, not out of it on Jan. 1
ReplyDeleteColumbus isn't in the playoff hunt.
That story's fucking crazy. How in the world are they going to get something equivalent to, say, Dustin Penner as an FA this year? If they want to be in the hunt next year, that'd help.
I realize that this is an argument and everybody has chosen sides but Horcoff is no longer a #2 center. God love him. he works hard, quality guy but his skill level was marginal years ago. It's much the same with Gagner. Centers should drive the bus on their lines. Oilers are weak down the middle. Their centers don't have a high end skill level. Skating, passing, shooting, strength, positional play - average at best.
ReplyDeleteThis team will develop well if they follow the Nashville model and bring in some quality bottom-6 pluggers, forcing the kids to develop in the AHL, where they belong. This rebuild wouldn't be such a mess if guys like Cogliano and Gagner, who could have been key pieces (Gagner still could be, but isn't nearly what he was around '07-'08), had been forced to develop in leagues where they could dominate.
ReplyDeleteIf the Oilers force Hartikainen, Lander, Pitlick, Hamilton, Martindale, Marincin, Petry, Plante, Teubert, Blain, Davidson, Roy, Bunz, etc. to develop in the AHL with a competitive squad, we will get some solid top-9 forwards and a few NHL d-men.
I would have liked to see Paajarvi spend one more season in Sweden to tear up that league; oh well. He still looks like a beauty.
Whoever the lottery pick is, he better spend an extra season in junior/Sweden (unless it's Landeskog, but I think he's worth a lot more to Ottawa than he is to us). No way skinny 18-year old RNH is ready, no point in doing to Larsson what Tampa did to Hedman (does anyone talk about him anymore?), and Couturier seems to be sliding in the rankings, so he probably isn't ready either. I think Strome deserves to be in the conversation, as he's putting up crazy stats and is a '93 (unlike Couturier, Landeskog, and Larsson)
Absolutely on Strome. Carrying that team offensively. Good size, Excellent passer, top end skater (changes gears), hard accurate shot. They started keying on him, he adjusted and started racking up the assists. More assists than RNH the great passer.
ReplyDeleteDoes it even matter what management says the direction of the team is going to be, when they keep changing their minds like 15 year old high school girls?
ReplyDeleteNo, it doesn't.
PS: The Canucks are hands down a fave to represent the West in the finals. Oilers shouldn't even be allowed to be mentioned with them in the same blog.
He's a grossly overpaid third line centre on virtually every other team in the league.
ReplyDeleteI am challenging you to present definitive proof that Shawn Horcoff is a 3rd line center, beyond your (clearly biased and misinformed) opinion.
If you can't or won't, you're simply trolling. Period.
brentedi: little known vacation island in the South Pacific.
Hbomb, don't feed the trolls man, it's not worth it.
ReplyDeleteJust think about them having to live the rest of their lives with their ignorance or malarkey and smile to yourself.
Trolls thrive on ire, but wither and die or turn to stone with apathy. Disregard to them is like sunlight to their namesakes in Nordic folklore.
Horcontent ratio: as the irrelevance of the games the Oilers play increases, the more Horcoff gets discussed on Oiler boards.
ReplyDeleteHaving Traktor and DSF drop in is like adding amphetamines to the Horcoffian conversation.
I've never understood the Horcoff anger. I mean, it isn't like we have some guy on the 4line ready to take on the role.
ReplyDeleteRight? I'll start getting upset about Horcoff the minute the Oilers hire someone better.
Deal?
re: that article. I don't see any way they're going to be able to sign a UFA like Upshall without an overpay in $ and term.
ReplyDeleteLT the anger against horcoff is misplaced. He biggest criticism is that he is overpaid. That is not his fault!
ReplyDeleteIs he effective: yes
Is he productive: yes
Is he hurting us: no
Then forget Horcoff, blame Lowe for mismanagement and seeing only gold when Katz signed. I personally think that they blew money on Horcoff to entice Hossa- to show that they are willing to spend on good players and will spend to become good.
Just like Machester City when it got Shiekh's money
bhyton: biggest heaviest Python
A couple of interesting quotes from v3.0 in Matheson's piece.
ReplyDelete"we can now go forward with our group and keep growing and also get into the free-agent market. But the free-agent market depends on what level you’re talking about. Are we going after the really high-end guys? No.” .... “We’re not going to attract the high-end (free agents) until this group shows them that they’re right there (in the Cup hunt). Then I think you zero in on the high-ends,” he said. “I know people around the league are looking at us ... knowing, in time, what’s going to happen with the talent here. Then Edmonton will be a place to be.
I agree with that. NYI signs better mid-level FA's though, so not holding out a lot of hope that Tambellini steps his game up there.
“You have to have a deep talent pool. We have to do that first before we’re worried about the really high-end free-agents. We may choose by position a bit this draft.”
Pretty much what we all expect. A D and a C with the first two picks since he's "choosing by position" this draft.
cue BPA arguments.....
re: that article. I don't see any way they're going to be able to sign a UFA like Upshall without an overpay in $ and term.
ReplyDeleteIf they're smart they throw around a few 2 year overpays so they aren't cap strung in the summer of 2013. Mind you, the summer of 2013 has exactly two players signed with 10 and 77. Being capstrung might not be an issue, especially if decent ESPN and NBC deals get worked out.
@ WG
ReplyDeleteif scouts feel that the draft prospects are very close in terms of rankings, then I dont see a reason why need can't come in as a factor.
If you are having troubles choosing BPA, let need factor in then.
Right? I'll start getting upset about Horcoff the minute the Oilers hire someone better.
ReplyDeleteI don't see that being an issue until 2013.
Lander might be getting close to being an actual NHL player then and 10 will be 35 and that's old for any forward in the NHL, unless your are the Teemuinator. That guy is ageless.
That's also the summer his NMC clause turns into a NTC where he can provide a list of 10 teams he would accept a trade to.
His actual salary will be $4MM that year.
Also since its a NTC, he can be sent to the farm if need be
ReplyDelete@ WG
ReplyDeleteif scouts feel that the draft prospects are very close in terms of rankings, then I dont see a reason why need can't come in as a factor.
If you are having troubles choosing BPA, let need factor in then.
Agreed.
Unless there is a serious drop off in projection from one guy to another there is no good argument against going where you are thin.
agreed.
ReplyDeleteI think as we go into later rounds 4th and above and maybe even 3rd and above, i can see teams drafting for need.
you know: player A - top 6 fwd, player B top 4 d. We need D so we go for B!
But you know what the funny thing is. They say they will be drafting for need. So the question is which need? Size down the middle? Std D man? Gritty top 6 winger. LOL.
So the question is which need? Size down the middle? Std D man? Gritty top 6 winger. LOL.
ReplyDeleteThat's easy.
Which is the toughest to acquire outside the draft?
So the guys getting worked up about how much Horcoff is paid...you know we have more than twenty million in cap space next year right? Really, if Ovechkin was on the market we have the room, so the Horcoff contract isn't really hurting us any at the moment. Working yourself up over a hypothetical scenario 3 years from now with all kinds of unknowns is honestly more work than I'm willing to go to over hockey.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that Horcoff signed a big contract coming off a playoff run and a 70 point season. He was just shy of being a point per game player. Since he signed a long term deal his performance has been affected by a series of injuries. That happens in sports.
Whose fault is that? No one's really, management can't predict injuries, the player is playing a dangerous game and can't somehow guarantee his good health. By the logic of the critic being offered if Crosby comes back from his concussion and does not play at a high level again "he's a bum" and management were "idiots" for signing him to a lucrative long term deal.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if you can predict the future I recommend getting off the hockey blogs and playing the stock market. Player contracts pay for what you're getting at the time, injury happen and diminish performance there isn't much that can be done about it and there isn't much use getting worked up about it.
SumOil: I personally don't trust scouts. I think there's some drafts the boxcars just made better scouts then scouts.
ReplyDeleteThey're isn't really some form of prerequisite for being a scout, and you can be one of the worst scouts ever and still get hired with your name. That's how kids with low production get drafted every year in the first round and blow pretty much each time. (Out of 14 first rounders in the decade with 5 points under theyr game totals, only 3 were NHL regulars, and the best is Michael Grabner (with Sutter and Setoguchi).
To me, RNH is a prime exemple of this. He's underscoring a bunch of other prospects in his lot (Couturier, Strome, Huberdeau etc) and still gets on top for his white powder show. Skill isn't that much if you don't get results out of it.
There's a clear cut guy by boxcars and physique.
Matt Duchene will disagree with you.
ReplyDeleteAlso I think Sutter is the best of the trio, but that's just me.
Numbers play a significant role, but I am not ready to count out the scouts. While some maybe crap, their job is to see which player will still be taking developmental steps when he grows older. It's not an easy task. Many of the players who were better than point per game scoters in thier draft year did nt end up doing well either. See Zachary hamill
Going by numbers alone, he should have been a top 3 pick in 2007. Look how that turned out. Give them some credit my friend.
Sometimes scoring is also dependent on the mind of game a team plays. Red Deer is probably like Nashville of Whl. While I m not saying draft RNH, I think numbers sometimes need context too
SumOil: Agreed. But my exemple was mostly for the guys who don't really produce (Colin Jacobs this year).
ReplyDeleteBut if you compare Red Deer and Drumondville I don't think there's such a big difference. Outside of Ondrej Palat, Couturier doesn't have that much help and he's clearly driving the Bus and dominating (+50).
Even if Red Deer is Nashville-like, Couturier is just dominating and well clear of his teamates (Closest is +32) I'm pretty sure he'd put up similar numbers on Red Deer.
A big question mark I have with RNH is his PP production and the lack of goals.
Since players only carry a small percentage of theyr scoring into the NHL, I think it's relevant to ask if he can actually score at NHL level. To me he's looking like a younger Scott Gomez. (But that's kinda irrelevant). I think that will be a major thing to look at since it would affect largely his ability to transit from junior to pro.
SumOil: Btw, Tavares exploded recently to go by Duchene in scoring.
ReplyDeleteFpb
ReplyDeleteI know about Tavares.I was not comparing them, I was saying that a player need not be a very high scoring junior in order to be productive in pros.
I am not an advocate of drafting Rnh. I have the same concerns as you do. I would much rather have us draft Couturier/Larsson and even Landeskog/Strome!
All I am saying is don't count out scouts. Remember the numbers weren't kind to either Hamilton or Marincin last season. While you may not need scouts to identify the best of the best, you need them to separate players who look similar at first or even second glance. Remember scouts did get Esposito and Schremp right.
SumOil: Allright for Schremp. Esposito's red flag was kinda glaring, anytime a kid regresses there's a big giant warning sign.
ReplyDeleteAllright, lemme rephrase my thing, I don't trust scouts all that much for the 1st round.
My bug is more when guys like Niederreiter pop up in the top 10 than RNH being there.
Anyway. Go Couturier!
So did anyone catch the Drummondville game last night then? I only caught some of it but it was kind of fun to see Couturier run the powerplay from behind the net. Haven't seen that in a long time. I doubt it works in todays NHL game.
ReplyDeleteSo I guess I can give up my dream of the Oilers signing Brad Richards this summer..*sigh*. I wonder what exciting mid-level talent ufa we will sign! Jussi Jokinen? Ben Eager? Brian Sutherby? Oh joy. Can't wait.
"So the guys getting worked up about how much Horcoff is paid...you know we have more than twenty million in cap space next year right?"
ReplyDeleteEdmonton could have 1 billion in cap space and it wouldn't mean shit.
You only get 3 top 9 centers on a team so you need to choose them wisely.
Because of Horcoff's brutal cap hit it makes him unmovable. That's the real problem.
Horcoff could make 500k as well as Sam Gagner and Andrew Cogliano and it wouldn't change the fact that Edmonton has the worst group of centers in the league.
So if you want to improve in that area (and management has already went hard after Schenn) it means a player like Sam Gagner will be traded because Horcoff can't.
Trading Gagner would be a big mistake. He is going to be a great 2C if not 1C. Probably a future captain too. He has played well and with heart. I don't understand people wanting to move him. He is a 21 year old vet and a star in the making. People here are saying we need a Kesler type to protect Hall. Just wanted to remind people of Samwise dropping the mitts and laying one on ol mighty Kesler in his rookie season no less. If this team ever does build itself to a championship, there is a very high likelyhood that it will be Sam Gagner accepting the cup from king bettman.
ReplyDeleteThat's something I can understand. Yeah niño was a bit of a recharge at 5, but he is a big hard nosed physical player. He is like landeskog and only a couple of months older than landeskog. Had nino been born 8 days later, he would have been eligible for this draft. So do you think his numbers this year warrant a top10 selection? Also if you do a redraft of the 1st round are there really 5 guys you would take above him?
ReplyDelete@ribs
ReplyDeleteI would like upshall and Brooks laich and wisniewiski
Ty got to it first - sorta like LT's show;) - but I can't see how it makes sense to deal off 27 for the Kings package if you're gonna try and make the playoffs in 2012.
ReplyDeletethat's more muddled planning.
@ fpb
ReplyDeleteI meant reach at. Damn I pad auto correct. I typed nine niederrieter in goggle and it corrected it to nine miscarriage. Lol
also, I'd rather give a full season to 23 than sign Upshall and let him underproduce in his fifth or six org.
ReplyDeleteif you can play both then fine but once 83 goes for nothing roster ready 23 becomes the second line RW behind 14, right?