As an Expos fan, you always had to be on your guard. Rodgers built his outfield around Tim Raines and fringe guys who could run, and damned if it didn't do the job. They got Mitch Webster for a load of hay, Otis Nixon for a plane ticket and on it went. Rodgers had a way of working players into the lineup slowly. Nixon would come in late in a close game as a pinch-runner and then play the outfield at the end of the inning. As time went on the club found he could play more of an everyday role and Nixon eventually went on to a solid mlb career.
Guys like Nixon, Webster and Casey Candaele owed a lot of their success to Rodgers. I bet many big league managers would have looked at pedigree and then performance, but Rodgers had a bunch of lunch bag characters on every team that played for him.
--
Craig MacTavish was like that too. First round picks came and went (Riesen, Rita, Mikhnov, Niinimaki, Schremp) during his time as Oiler coach and never made a dent. In fact, if you were a 1st round pick there was a better chance to make MacT's club if you'd had some hard knocks along the way (Daniel Cleary).
MacT's strength--I believe--was in finding useful hockey players from the clay that arrived each training camp. Men like Fernando Pisani, Kyle Brodziak, Marty Reasoner, Toby Petersen.
--
Tom Renney's bottom end forwards--the ones he selected at the beginning of the season--were a curious bunch. Colin Fraser was supposed to be a FO and PK option and the club wanted some muscle on that line so they kept Steve MacIntyre, JF Jacques and Zack Stortini. Ryan Jones would supply the energy and chip in some goals.
Halfway through the season, Stortini has been waived, Fraser is playing 4.5 EV minutes a night, JF Jacques treats the puck like a grenade and MacIntyre can't get into games. Ryan Jones has played well enough to earn a contract for next season, but the rest have been passed by the callups like a house on the side of the road.
Coach Renney kept Liam Reddox today. My guess is he's looking for a Reasoner, a Brodziak, a Mitch Webster. I think he may have found one.
--
Lots of talk today about the Stortini decision. He wasn't close to being the worst player on the roster and I think he played well enough over the last few seasons to be given the benefit of the doubt today. It didn't happen, and I don't think we should overblow the transaction: this was a player who could be replaced and we know the coach had issues with his skill set.
Still, it's impossible to argue he was the best candidate for the flush.
--
JF Jacques remains. Either there's an ongoing injury issue or a lack of confidence or something, because based on performance he should be down the road today. Maybe it's confidence; there was a time when Jacques looked like a solid big league prospect but that's a distant bell.
Jacques popularity among the Oilers management group today is probably the same reason that got him drafted: hockey men can't resist a combination of size and speed. If he could take a pass and make one, we'd be in business.
I think he's still got back problems. They're nursing him along. They see light at the end of the tunnel. No other answer is available.
ATDHE site has been seized by ICE (US Government)
ReplyDeleteI was in Stortini's camp, partly because he seemed such an unlikely player the first time I saw him at a prospect camp in town. He was sliding all over the ice to block shots in an exhibition scrimmage and he stood out as having twice the hustle of anyone in camp. Of course his skating was twice as bad as anyone else there as well, and while effort carried him with MacT, Renney is a different cat.
ReplyDeleteRenney seems to be looking more at potential upside in a player compared to MacT's more "what can you do today?" approach. If you look at two fringe players like Stortini and Jacques from Renney's POV you might think that you can coach positioning and effort, but not speed.
MacT's faith in Stortini was rewarded with a fairly reliable, workmanlike effort. Renney's lack of faith in Stortini was equally rewarded with desperate and erratic play.
One of the best bosses that I have worked for told me; "People will raise or lower themselves to your expectations". I have found that to be true many times in my life, and I think it fits here.
ATDHE site has been seized by ICE (US Government)
ReplyDeleteI think the US gov't seized the Oilers PP too.
You forgot to mention Buck's contributions in the realm of space travel LT - also porn.
ReplyDeleteRenney made a comment today about Stortini struggling with aspects of the game. Man JFJ has nine lives. That or serious blackmail material.
Looks like Omark is here to stay which is only right. And Reddox sticks too, also a good thing imo.
@ian: God bless the USA.. But there's light in the tunnel - http://www.atdhe.me
ReplyDeleteWell said hoil.
ReplyDeleteUS Government - destroying it's own citizens by instituting liberalist neo-feudalism, while simultaneously carrying out a foreign policy that would be the envy of the Third Reich.
ReplyDeleteBy this centuries end, the USA will be split into warring states, just like the Chinese wayy back in the day.
Good luck Canada.
On a more hopeful note, lol, Stortini was a laughing stock of a fighter - which just doesn't translate on this soon to be serial lottery team.
PS: Go people of Egypt.
ReplyDeleteWhat a bunch of crap.
ReplyDeleteI hope Storts gets claimed. I think he's earned it. I also want other GM's to confirm for all to see that the lunkheads making the decisions have no idea who to keep and who to discard. (If he gets claimed, it will have to be by someone in the conference who sees him a lot.)
ReplyDeleteThese guys never admit a mistake and flushing Fraser would make it look like it was a mistake to sign him.
MacT was an Executive Chef whose only recipe was for Chicken Salad. He's in a better place now (TSN). Now his subtle but acerbic wit can be used to entertain a much larger audience.
Hartikainen, Pitlick, Lander, Hamilton...Stortini's and Jacques days were/are both numbered anyways.
ReplyDeleteLife isn't fair, and Stortini getting cut before Jacques or Smac isn't fair, but we have learned that Tambellini and Renney want a roster spot for a goon.
With all the concussions happening in fights, I am really disappointed in a lot of the media and blogosphere for their criticism of Stortini's last fight. He was caught in a disadvantageous position/hold, and was only trying to protect himself, before engaging from a position where he wasn't vulnerable.
Stortini went from hugging to fighting last year, and this year his fighting just got rusty from not being played enough.
Hunter,
ReplyDeleteDo you have anything good to say about anything - besides yourself? FFS.
Anybody checked on Bruce yet? Is he going to go all Rambo on ST?
ReplyDeleteToo bad for Storts, but if they aren't going to use him then no use having him around. Give the next guy a chance.
I'd be surprised if he gets picked up. Nobody has seen him play much this year to know what he has to offer.
Stortini and ATDHE all in the same day. Both my reason for watching and my method of watching are gone.
ReplyDeleteOkay, maybe not but I was definitely a big fan of Zorg and am mystified that he was sent down, considering who stayed behind.
And dohfOs (what the hell kind of handle is that, by the way!) thanks for pointing out atdhe.me - it realyl is my only way to watch hockey... or anything, for that matter.
You try looking up "liberalist neo-feudalism" and watch the interweb smoke. That is political double-speak of an epic proportion.
ReplyDeleteAnybody checked on Bruce yet?
ReplyDeleteBe patient with Bruce... those assault rifles can be a bitch to load and sight.
Bar Qu - I'm glad it wasn't just me scratching my head at that one.
ReplyDeleteStortini never had a chance this season with Renney as coach. Last year he played at least 67 games and if you take plus/minus into regard he was a plus player. Stortini was hard working and a team player, and probably the only spark of life on the fourth line. All he needed was a centre and a left winger to play with.
ReplyDeleteDo you have anything good to say about anything - besides yourself? FFS
ReplyDeleteHunter = People of Egypt?
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ReplyDelete@Icecastles: Hey, what can I say.. I'm Swedish.
ReplyDeleteI stay up all night to watch Oilers play, neglecting work, studies, my beloved girlfriend to watch a team lose more then they win. Life is weird, so is my handle. But at least both myself and my handle is (rather) unique. And before you say something, yes - dohfOs was made up by a keyboard-bash, but at least it's me.
Oh, and I'd recommend myp2p.eu, they are - when it comes to NHL, far superior ATDHE.
You try looking up "liberalist neo-feudalism" and watch the interweb smoke. That is political double-speak of an epic proportion.
ReplyDeleteThough if you said neo-liberal (I'll drop the "ist", because syllables that add no meaning are among my pet peeves) neo-feudalism, a lot of people would say that you had a point.
I pretty much gave up on political terminology when I learned that, while "liberal" and "conservative" were opposites, "neo-liberal" and "neo-conservative" are synonyms.
Not suprised. Seems like the kind of guy who would be good in the room which is a highly touted aspect for end of the roster's qualities (if the talking heads were still believed).
ReplyDeleteIs Reddox > Stortini sure. But you're correct in stating that Stortini > Strudwick > JFJ > SMAC (I won't put Rekhab here but would love to see me some recall waivers in his case).
Not a huge move no, but it likely isn't one that clears up any confusion wrt to management or instills a lot of pleasure in his teammates. To see a heart on his sleeve fourth liner get sent packing isn't getting us much closer to anything.
Congrats are in order to the Ginger and hopefully someone is looking for a reasonable 4th liner who will give it his all every night and regardless of size at least take some thug off the ice for 5 minutes a game if called upon.
chartleys
btw while we rail at ST I do think this was a Renney call all of the way (shave those sideburns!)
ReplyDeleteReslly I think it was a choice between Stortini and JFJ, SMac is the goon and is going nowhere, God knows why but that's for another day.
Omark obviously has earned a spot and I would argue that Reddox has as well, Liam is certainly a more useful player than Stortini imo. I know Bruce would not agree with this but the little guy can PK and he can skate (important to this club I think - they want to get faster) and he's smart and aggressive. So while he may go when Brule returns from his concussion (thats it right?) I think ST went to Renney, they sat down and ST said who goes?
Renney said I think Reddox is useful and I don't think Stortini is going to get any better and they looked at JFJ and said 'fuck it we'll give him the rest of the season to prove to us that we should keep him'.
If he does then we're golden, if not then we'll flush him too.
godot's point is correct, my guess is JFJ, Strudwick, Fraser, these guys are all gone next year, more kids are coming. Hartikainen is third in the AHL in rookie scoring after a brutal start, I'm pretty sure he could provide more than Stortini does come next fall. Lander. The kids in junior. Colin MacDonald for that matter.
I really like Stortini. Guy busts his ass. He played jr in my hometown and nobody I have talked to has a bad word about the guy.
But I understand the move. And everyone here knows what I think of ST and Lowe. They're clowns. Still I can see the deal here.
Steve, it seems to me that the term "neo-feudalist" actually just means "the way the world has always worked prior to the rise of the middle class in post-Napoleonic Europe and America". And while I don't support it, I see alot of people waaay more interested in getting the latest techno-brain number than actually desiring to engage in the decision making processes of their respective countries.
ReplyDeleteAnd some team is going to get a very useful Zorg for next to nothing this year.
Renney seems to be looking more at potential upside in a player compared to MacT's more "what can you do today?" approach. If you look at two fringe players like Stortini and Jacques from Renney's POV you might think that you can coach positioning and effort, but not speed.
ReplyDeleteAnother way to interpret this is that Mac-T teams rightly or not were expected to make the playoffs and so it would be smart to get the most out of your roster.
Renney's squad is not expected to make the playoffs and so it would be more important to assess the upside of your roster then what you can squeeze out of limited players.
Oh and the Blades Rebels game tonight has more going for it then any game in the NHL tonight.
ReplyDeleteMy God that was one hell of a first period. Hamilton with a primary assist on Schenn's goal.
I don't think there's any defending Stortini. The guy gave a good effort, and was generally a good guy, but I don't think he'd be a very effective AHLer. The guy flat out can't skate, or produce offence, or fight, or hit, or really do anything other than try hard with his extremely poor stride.
ReplyDeleteAt least Jacques can hit. (Though he can't do anything else, and he's injured a lot...).
At least MacIntyre can fight.
...not really sure what Fraser can do. In any case, all 4 (3 left) should be gone after this season. Let's focus on bringing in guys that can play, rather than guys that fill a 4th line role.
Please take note of the number of prototypical 4th liners that play for Detroit...
Bruce has an article up on Cult of Hockey - in it, he says that Zorg was highly overrated and given way more chances than he deserved.
ReplyDelete...or you could go read it yourself just to ensure that I correctly summarized it!
On JFJ - I think he has head problems and the team management thinks they have a pretty solid player in him if they can fix him.
Peter: Problem no one wants to fight Mac.
ReplyDeleteOn JFJ: They probably hope he gets a brain, or they're following the ''Knuble curve''. That guy got good at hockey when he was 30.
I always loked Zorg's heart and he was a guy who always gave his best. But if you're going to start flushing players, you might as well start with those who are not going to be back next year - regardless. And Renney obviously did not appreciate him.
ReplyDeleteBut this is only the first move, have to think more are coming so I wouldn't breathe easy yet if I were Fraser or Smac. Am not going to join the chorus on JFJ because it's not worth the time or effort to figure out what ANYONE in management see's in this guy.
But one name that is not coming up is Struds. Does anyone think he might "retire" or go on IR so that they don't have to send someone else out?
[i]book¡e said...
ReplyDeleteBruce has an article up on Cult of Hockey - in it, he says that Zorg was highly overrated and given way more chances than he deserved.
...or you could go read it yourself just to ensure that I correctly summarized it!
On JFJ - I think he has head problems and the team management thinks they have a pretty solid player in him if they can fix him.[/i]
Regarding JFJ, is this what you mean by head problems?
http://content.bored.com/photos/19-05-01%5B1%5D.jpg
...or is that team management?
Now could be the time that Zack really needs a hug.
I think the Oilers walked away from better players during the summer. Pouliot, for example.
ReplyDeleteToo bad for Storts I would have kept him instead of Jacques...in the end it doesn't really matter...the important thing is that they kept reddox and omark, which was the right decision
ReplyDeleteThis team does not fix players' "head problems" it causes them.
ReplyDeleteDamn I was thinking Flash Gordon when I made the porn reference.
ReplyDeleteOr was that Duck Dodgers in the 24th and a half CENTUREEEEEE!
No mind its irrelevant. Carry on.
I think he was in 9 1/2 weeks.
ReplyDeleteBD said:
ReplyDeleteSo while he may go when Brule returns from his concussion (that's it right?)
The Journal mentioned something about Brule recovering from the flu today or was it his ankle?
That's a story in and of itself. What's eating Gilbert (Brule's) Grape?
If Brule gets a "pubis thing," that will be the tell that something is really up... :p
I think the Oilers walked away from better players during the summer. Pouliot, for example.
ReplyDeleteha ha. I could make a case that one of your detractors stole your account and made this post.
JFJ strikes me as someone the Oilers have invested in off the ice. Will this good kid ever regain the confidence he lost after a year of pro? I think that the Oilers patience with him is is to be commended. He's still young and cheap and it says a lot about an organization that will sometimes look at the big picture rather than strictly on-ice effort.
ReplyDeletehoil - yes, that is what I meant.
ReplyDeletealso - you need to use < i > and < /i > for italics (without the spaces).
Maybe Lowe floated JFJ a couple millon a few years back and he wants to make sure he's going to get paid back.
ReplyDeleteBdhs: It's funny because when I read your first post I completely understood you were talking about Flash Gordon but didn't notice the reference was Buck Rogers. Has anyone watched Flesh Gordon recently? Weird movie in the modern context.
ReplyDeleteBlades win the battle of the east by ending Red Deer's 11 game win streak.
ReplyDeleteRNH with 1g 1a
Hamilton had 2 assists and was a +3
BD,
ReplyDelete2 things:
SMac is the goon and is going nowhere
I'd argue that Smac is a designated fighter, not a goon. Goons are more likely from the McSorely tree, not the Semenko tree.
2) Are you thinking of Flesh Gordon?
The difference between Smac is that Smac is useful in the press box so long as you have one game left to play this season against your current opponent.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the precise order on exits from the departures lounge, the argument for keeping Storts is purely sentimental. Any attempt to parse this as reflecting on the competence of Oiler's management is out of pure frustration with Mr Dithers. Really, it's passive aggressive. We're just trying to hang a bad smell on something trivial so they actually do something.
If you can measure Stort's contribution to your team's success, it isn't having much.
D'oh! The difference between Smac and Storts ...
ReplyDeleteDamn LT just when I thought you were over your man crush with Pouliot.........BAM!! At this point in our season he would have been injured, played 18 games, had 3-4 good games, tantalized us a lot and had 3 goals and 5 assists,
ReplyDelete-4 with 48.6% in face off dot.
If coaches think JFJ's back is not quite better yet and that it will get better....... 2 way contract next year
Anon: Yes not like exacting revenge as team or reacting on the field would be something a real team would do.
ReplyDeleteWill this good kid ever regain the confidence he lost after a year of pro?
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, will he ever recover from his 500th surgery?
I think that the Oilers patience with him is is to be commended. He's still young and cheap and it says a lot about an organization that will sometimes look at the big picture rather than strictly on-ice effort.
Absolutely. I hate it when teams make decisions based on the performance of their players on the ice.
On a sidenote Keegan Lowe doesn't seem like a superbad prospect.
ReplyDeleteHe's not a scoring machine but his +- total is impressive for a guy who doesn't score a lot.
Brule.... Flu,Ankle,Flu,now there is rumors from hockeybuzz that he is suffering from mono. Any thoughts of whether an off-ice issue is keeping him from playing?
ReplyDeleteAlthough I was one of the groaners following the Dallas game, its tough to see a good soldier be sent away.. Sorry to hear the news..
ReplyDeleteStorts could have contributed to a good fourth line, but the bottom six is a mess and someone (hopefully more than one by the offseason) has to pay the price..
(speaking of JFJ having 9 lives, Toonces never seems worse for wear after every season comes to a crashing end)
Toonces, Not Again!!..
Nooooooo......
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ReplyDeleteSay what you will about the tenets of liberalist neo-feudalism, at least it's an ethos.
ReplyDeleteOmark obviously has earned a spot and I would argue that Reddox has as well, Liam is certainly a more useful player than Stortini imo. I know Bruce would not agree with this but the little guy can PK and he can skate (important to this club I think - they want to get faster) and he's smart and aggressive.
ReplyDeleteBDHS: Actually I don't disagree with that. Just because I think the team made a bad choice doesn't make it the worst choice, which would have been exposing Reddox to waivers. Taking the easy way out and exercising the option on Omark would have been dangerous as well in terms of both developing the player and developing the relationship between the club and the player.
Still, such relationships are a one-way street. I think of Stortini sticking around Edmonton all summer and exposing his golf swing to ridicule and attending who knows how many community functions and going on the Team time and again and going every extra mile that he could for the org, and what's that worth? The answer would appear to be "the mean square root of fuckall" and that makes me a little sad.
I'm very interested to see what happens on the waiver wire this morning. I'm expecting a claim, but then again, I've been wrong many more times than I can count, so we'll see.
A final word that while this thread has focussed on MacT-Renney, that it was Pat Quinn who dressed and used Zorg for 77 games last year, played him 9 minutes a night, and got a pretty darn good season out of him (+3 on That team). Quinn himself had a tough year, but that was one player he handled right.
Bruce - to me the 'community' stuff has to be worth very very little regarding a player for an NHL team. Perhaps a little extra money and a bit of deference when it comes to certain types of decisions. Its kind of a thing you take into account when everything else is equal or at least close (between players).
ReplyDeleteWith that said, I think Storts was very useful on the ice and that Quinn used him well. I think they should have kept him. Really, it came down to a branding problem - a guy who was a good 4th line grunt was essentially classed as a fighter and he was not great at fighting.
Bookie, I agree with your assessment, and oddly it seems to strengthen Bruce's case. Not only was Stortini a better player and more useful than JFJ, but he's gone above and beyond anything JFJ has done in the community for the organization.
ReplyDeleteKick to the teeth indeed, "...look Mr. Renney, I don't know what you think sideburns are...".
bruce: Yeah, I hope the guy has a career somewhere as well. Seems like a nice enough cat.
ReplyDelete