No way he comes to Edmonton, so it must be back to the land where they add chocolate to milk.
There might be a slight chance EDM can trade Souray in a "my trash for your garbage" deal that exchanges financial headaches, but this has got to be a kick to the privates for a proud man like Souray.
I had some sympathy with Souray to begin with, but this outcome is his own damn fault.
ReplyDeleteSouray had every opportunity to dominate on a good Hershey team and be picked up by an NHL squad made better by his reduced cap hit while still receiving his ful salary.
He Failed at this. Sad situation for him especially.
how the deuce do you get an entire post up in the time it takes me to write a comment? And phrase it better than I do too!
ReplyDeleteNik Hagman on waivers. Am I alone in thinking that's a good "transitional player" for next year? 3.0mil 1year left but the Oilers don't need the cap space anyway. He seems versatile enough to play anywhere on the roster to me. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I couldn't possibly care less about what happens to souray at this point. You reap what you sow.
Unless Souray's game has fallen apart in the AHL, that's really dumb that no one picked him up.
ReplyDelete2.7MM for a D-man with only a year and a bit left is a pretty good deal. Even if he's now only a decent third pairing guy at ES, who can do serious damage on the PP, and PK a little, that's a value contract.
I suspect it's the injuries that scared teams off. But given there's only one year left on his deal, and he's playing now, I still don't get it.
Christ, some team might pick up Vandermeer for 2.3MM just for playoff depth. (I know, his deal doesn't hit next year, but Christ.) The Flames coughed up a third for Staios with all that time on his deal.
It's a weird league, man.
Souray on the Hershey Bears:
ReplyDelete26GP 3G 10A 13P 49PIMS
Teams took a look at him down there and were unimpressed. Didn't help that he injured his hand in a fight [again].
Vandermeer might not be a great defenseman but at least he isn't damaged goods.
I'd let Souray play for the Oilers for a few games, and if he's such a jerk then back down he goes.
ReplyDeleteSouray, Pronger, Smyth(I know I know), Comrie...so many evil devils Meester Lowe brings to our team, Mama!
if he's such a jerk then back down he goes.
ReplyDeleteThere is zero evidence that he is a jerk.
Disliking v3.0 does not make you a jerk.
The Oilers just tried to stuff him into the same suitcase as Moreau and Staios.
Smart? Well...
I always liked Souray. Feared defencemen are rarities in the NHL. Great shot, pity about the injuries.
ReplyDeleteIt's obviously some kind of pissing contest between the player and "management" - who in turn are doing to Souray what they wish they had the balls to have tried with Pronger(but obviously didn't).
An example of a trade for Souray might be to Ottawa for Kuba.
ReplyDeleteLikely as part of a package deal.
The Oilers take $7.4 of Kuba over two, the Senators get $4.5 for one.
Apparently dan tencer disagrees with you Mr DeBakey - his latest tweet says Souray clearing waivers proves that management wasn't being vindicative (or by extension, labelling him a problem).
ReplyDeleteI agree on the hot headed and not thinking through the consequences of his actions thing though.
Possible garbage for garbage swaps:
ReplyDeleteJeff Finger (your minor league stash for ours)? Unlike Souray, Finger wouldn't be viewed as a locker room pariah, so he could at least come up and play as a #6 or #7 in an injury pinch.
Cristobal Huet? 1 year left at similar cap hit. Not sure if he would accept the Gerber role (probably not), but at least he's a usable asset of some sort.
Who else? Rolston? Commodore has 2 years left, so that seems a non-starter.
I can see the potential of doing another POS type buyout deal. But you'd have to find someone in $4 million range to make it worth the other teams time.
Debakey:
ReplyDeleteOttawa doesn't want to take any contracts back, so that seems like a tough one to do unless we send a sweetener with him.
Moose - I think the Jeff Finger Swap is the most likely. 3.5 million cap hit but at least there's a chance he might benefit the organization, unlike Souray.
ReplyDeleteHe is one gawdawful player though. 23GP and 3P on the Marlies.
Probably better to hang on to Souray and see if you can get something in the off season or at least having him claimed off waivers then. A gamble that's unlikely to pay off, but still has a better chance of panning out than trading for Jeff Finger.
Aaaahahaha.
ReplyDeleteReap what you sow Souray.
I'm glad to hear Tencer disagrees with me.
ReplyDeleteI had the radio on in the car Saturday and heard his interview with Bettman.
Next time you see Tencer with his "real boy" makeup job on TV, you know they're just trying to make his brown nose blend in with the rest of his face.
Striatic: Agree. At the very least, I still think there's a chance someone is interested on re-entry next season.
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a mutual termination clause in the CBA? I doubt Souray wants to leave any money on the table by agreeing to that, but at least it would give him a chance to sign a cheaper deal elsewhere and try to kick-start his career.
On the bright side...at least he's not Wade Redden. THAT is a truly shocking contract.
the problem Souray has at this point is that it is probably too late for mutual termination to work out in his favour.
ReplyDeletebtw mutual termination is possible. i believe Brandan Shanahan and the Devils are the case study for that.
but so unlikely because even at league minimum it is unlikely that any team starts him in the NHL, and if Souray is going to have to play his way out of the AHL he might as well be making 4.5 million while he's at it.
via Tencer on Twitter:
ReplyDelete"Renney expresses surprise that nobody took a flyer on Souray...says if it was him, he'd have taken a run at him...that he could help a team."
yeesh.
So the head coach of the team that owns his rights would take him.
ReplyDeleteWonder how v3.0/Vish feels about what Renney said.
You can't write this stuff.
You reap what you sow.
ReplyDeleteUnless you're the GM of the Oilers.
Well, that's not totally accurate. I suppose you still get to reap and sow, but you're really bad at both and they let you do it until they can promote you.
I think Tambellini earned a pint of respect today. I refuse to believe not one team was willing to pick Souray up. This sounds like the leagues GM's sending the players a message.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy,
ReplyDeleteI think you're seeing drama where there isn't none. If anything, Renney is playing up Souray's value, which is of benefit to the team.
err... "is none", not "isn't none".
ReplyDeleteThat Renney quote is George Carlin funny, and by that I mean pee your pants hilarious.
ReplyDeleteWojo,
ReplyDeleteMore comedy than drama.
When the Head Coach of the team that owns his rights, a team in desperate need of Dman help, says he would take him, how can that not be gold?
Renney for GM? Heh.
ReplyDeleteHe can't be any worse
ReplyDeleteWhat a sad state of affairs.
ReplyDeleteSouray is heading to a buyout. If no team wants him at half price, surely no one would give us anything of value.
I just hope we're not in the same situation with Khabibulin next season.
The entire league just told KLowe that they would not take Souray at 1/2 the price paid by the Oilers. Huge slap in the face of the Oilers ability to figure out what to pay players
ReplyDeleteUnless you're the GM of the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteWell, that's not totally accurate. I suppose you still get to reap and sow, but you're really bad at both and they let you do it until they can promote you.
I'm pretty sure this barren, wind-swept plain I'm looking at is the product of Lowe and Tambi's last place efforts. ;)
Spector tweet:
ReplyDeleteCBA requires Souray to fly to Edmonton as per re-entry waivers, then fly back to Hershey where he has been assigned. Nice.
Really?
I thought he didn't have to leave his couch?
Speeds, any CBA guru chime in?
Sheldon "Oilers Fan for Life!!!"
ReplyDeleteI would so like to know all the background stuff on this as it must be an amazing story. For no one to pick him up I really cant believe that there is not some solidarity between GMs on this one is for sure.
Tencer also had atweet about Chorney having to fly commercially because he's not allowed to fly with the team if he's not officially on the roster. Silly stuff.
ReplyDeleteAh..the Chorney thing is because of Souray being on the roster. Hah, geez. They had to deactivate him.
ReplyDeleteI'm with WG. I didn't think they had to put him on the roster if he was put through re-entry waivers.
ReplyDeleteWho cares if Souray had to fly to Edmonton and then fly back? For what he's paid, a little inconvenience shouldn't be the end of the world.
ReplyDelete30 GMs don't want him on their roster. Time for the anti-Tambi brigade to give up on this front, and find another favorite bash-the-GM topic. NO NHL TEAM WANTS SHELDON SOURAY. How hard is this to understand?
Try to recall when Sheldon was signed, how late in the off-season that happened, and ask yourself just how many teams were truly interested then, then wonder how many GMs laughed on the other end of the phone when Tambi called them about a trade before the story broke that Souray wanted out. Add a constant state of IR, big cap hit, one more year of service, and a tendency to not know who he should be talking to about his grievances (Spector is a full partner in Souray's fall from grace, and knew damn well what would happen when he broke that story), and there's the tragedy that is the saga Sheldon Souray.
This was Tencer's tweet on Souray flying...
ReplyDeleteSouray will remain in Hershey but the team has to waive him again for paperwork purposes. So, for 24 hours, Chorney is off the roster.
For who cares...It may mean we're down a defenseman in Minnesota.
I imiagine if Chorney is flying there that he should be able to play.
ReplyDeleteNO NHL TEAM WANTS SHELDON SOURAY. How hard is this to understand?
ReplyDeleteTo give management a pass on the devaluation of their highest paid player to the point where they can't give him away at 1/2 price is wrong.
No question Souray holds a large portion of the responsibility, but to give the management a pass is incredibly myopic.
Tragedy?
ReplyDeleteThis is comedy, pure unadulterated and from the source.
Souray can be bought out this summer for 2/3 over two years. Is that right? That would be a hit of $2.8 million spread over 2 years.
ReplyDeleteIf so, that seems like the likely outcome.
I'd hope the Oilers would take the one-year hit instead and keep him in Hershey.
ReplyDeletei'm anticipating something brilliant from our brain trust in the next week.
ReplyDeletemaybe a reddox for shremp deal or souray for redden. rekhab for huet
or maybe we can trade comrie for perrey and demand that comrie pay us 2.5m
maybe we could trade tambi for his son?
Buyout
ReplyDeleteSEASON - CAP HIT
2011-12 - 2,400,000
2012-13 - 1,500,000
A lot of teams liked the idea of Souray in the boardroom, then they dispatched scouts to watch him, killed it. 3 goals and 13pts in 26gp ...Rishaug twitter
ReplyDeleteSounds more like due diligence than collusion.
To give management a pass on the devaluation of their highest paid player to the point where they can't give him away at 1/2 price is wrong.
ReplyDeleteNo question Souray holds a large portion of the responsibility, but to give the management a pass is incredibly myopic.
He is not their highest paid player - that would be Horcoff.
The dressing room by all accounts has been a good place this year despite all the losses. When that is contrasted to last year, you have to look at why. No Quinn, no Moreau, - no Souray.
Management achieved its goal of increasing morale. I am not close enough to know whether Souray would have changed this, or whether the relationship between him and the Oilers was salvagable - neither are you.
But I do think Tambo was justified in being concerned about having a malcontent around his young, up and coming players.
If Souray wasn't hurt all the time and impressed last season or in the AHL, he would be long gone. He would have been traded before the season, or picked on re-entry waivers.
I wasn't crazy about the decision to sign Souray. As it turns out he had one really nice season and two that were injury plagued.
But I'll give management a pass on their decision this year. Unless you want to suggest that Souray would have been a positive around the team (which we don't know) I don't see anything else that could have been done.
It appears that many of us criticise each management decision thru the lens of a 30th place team rather than independently. That is myopic in itself.
Niklas Hagman could be an ice pick-up.
ReplyDeleteGuy proved he could put up around 50 points and 20 goals.
Not like i'd cost anything.
If Stasny is available. Would you be prepared to trade Gagner+ to get a 26 yr old #1 centre?
ReplyDelete@The other John
ReplyDeleteYes, that's a no brainer so long as the + was something reasonable.
Hunter, Mr DeBakey , etc...
ReplyDeleteI think that the evidence is pretty clear, whatever Souray offers, nobody wants it.
He is talented enough to play the game, but whatever he brings to the dressing room and/or relationship with coaches must bring his value down enough that he is not worth a 50% off contract.
Souray wrecked his career by being an ass all around. It's pretty hard to blame Tambo for that. I am fine with calling Lowe out with regards to signing him because it clearly was a bad contract.
Putting aside the question of whether management was vindictive or whether Souray deserved exile, there are some basic facts.
ReplyDelete1. If Souray gets bought out, Mr. Katz will have paid him $14.52 million dollars per 82 games played in an Oilers uniform.
2. Not one other team in the league thinks he's worth $2.25 million for next season.
How does the genius who signed Souray to THAT contract escape accountability?
Just wondering.
They're talking about mutual termination with Wade Redden, so it's def possible.
ReplyDeleteApparently if either the Capitals or Kings feel they're being pushed too much for Hemsky they'l go for Connolly.
Neal and Niskanen for Goligoski as per Mckenzie tweet
ReplyDeletei'm anticipating something brilliant from our brain trust in the next week.
ReplyDeletemaybe a reddox for shremp deal or souray for redden. rekhab for huet
I see Schremp didn't play today in a NYI win. Maybe they were holding him out for that big trade, or maybe he had a hangnail.
Its looking more and more like Rob Schremp hockey has worn out its welcome in Long Island.
*Gasp* perhaps MacT was right?
Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen.
ReplyDeleteWOW.
Dallas just got bent over the table and took it.
wow shero with the steal.
ReplyDeleteDallas trades James Neal & Matt Niskanen to Pit for Alex Goligoski, as per McKenzie.
ReplyDeleteNeiwy is now the worst GM in hockey.
That is horrible.
Rotten.
Very bad.
Kevin Lowe thinks Neiwy got had.
Time for the anti-Tambi brigade to give up on this front, and find another favorite bash-the-GM topic. NO NHL TEAM WANTS SHELDON SOURAY.
ReplyDeleteI think I'm missing the part where this is a defense of Oilers management.
*Gasp* perhaps MacT was right?
ReplyDeleteI think that's been the consensus around here for years, hasn't it? Schremp Truthers tend to be ridiculed pretty mercilessly whenever the crop up here. By me, anyway.
SS: His underlying numbers haven'T been that bad.
ReplyDeleteIt's just a fact he received more bad treatment then he deserved.
Some way more terrible players have worn the blue and orange.
And a collective WTF goes up from the hockey world. Couldn't edmonton have outbid that for Neal?
ReplyDeleteDon't want to be the devil's advocate here but maybe it isn't THAT bad.
ReplyDeleteTo me St-Louis' rape was way more hardcore than this one.
James Neal L 59 21 18 39 60 +8
Matt Niskanen D 45 0 6 6 30 -1
Comapared to
Alex Goligoski D 60 9 22 31 28 +20
Some way more terrible players have worn the blue and orange.
ReplyDeleteCertainly. But if Steve MacIntyre's your comparator, you can justify almost anything.
That said, I said earlier this season that Schremp should be good enough to take a regular ES shift on one of the worst teams in the league, but that's hardly the same as saying that MacTavish was somehow wrong.
There are no words to describe that theft by Shero. Atrocious.
ReplyDeleteThe only straw I'm grabbing for is a long term salary savings to re-sign Richards?!?!?!?!?
WTF?
Moose: How about a 31 points defender vs a 39 point winger?
ReplyDeleteDear Steve Tambellini,
ReplyDeleteThe trade deadline is going on right now. The idea that you will wait until the last minute to pull off a great deal is not going to work. Do Something!
I don't think points tell the whole story with Neal. Young power forward, physical, and still with some upside. I don't think it's a stretch to sayhe can score 40 playing with one of those centers.
ReplyDeleteJust my two cents but I don't think Goligoski brings as many dimensions as Neal does respective to their positions. If you think he's a first pairing defenseman then you make that trade. Hell, on Dallas he probably is. But on a good team he's a #4.
FPV:
ReplyDeleteTo me that's like trading Pacioretty and say, Picard, for Goligoski. Would you do that?
I'm with you on MaxPac, I love the kid. But I think Neal is every bit as good.
I wouldn't do either deal. My guess is that they feel Ott, Benn, Morrow duplicate his skill set and Goligoski is something they dont have.
He is not their highest paid player - that would be Horcoff.
ReplyDeleteYou're right.
The dressing room by all accounts has been a good place this year despite all the losses. When that is contrasted to last year, you have to look at why. No Quinn, no Moreau, - no Souray.
Management achieved its goal of increasing morale. I am not close enough to know whether Souray would have changed this, or whether the relationship between him and the Oilers was salvagable - neither are you.
But I do think Tambo was justified in being concerned about having a malcontent around his young, up and coming players.
Not sure how this is related to my post. The Souray debacle has been years in the making. He asked for his first trade after his Allstar year. Nor do I suggest he should have been with the Oilers this year.
Strawmen.
If Souray wasn't hurt all the time and impressed last season or in the AHL, he would be long gone. He would have been traded before the season, or picked on re-entry waivers.
Perhaps.
I wasn't crazy about the decision to sign Souray. As it turns out he had one really nice season and two that were injury plagued.
Agreed.
But I'll give management a pass on their decision this year. Unless you want to suggest that Souray would have been a positive around the team (which we don't know) I don't see anything else that could have been done.
I'm not sure I do anything differently this year either. Doesn't mean that management hadn't fubar'd it up to that point.
It appears that many of us criticise each management decision thru the lens of a 30th place team rather than independently. That is myopic in itself.
30th place teams do not have a monopoly on stupidity, Nieuwendyk just traded a 1st line LW and 3rd pair D for a 3rd pair D.
I've given v3.0 his due when he deserves it, when it comes to Souray most of the blame lies at Lowe's feet, but v3.0 is a part of the management team that contributed to letting a key asset lose all its value before salvaging some kind of value.
Moose: Yeah I mean i'm not thinking the trade is good for Dallas, just trying to get the motivation behind the trade.
ReplyDeleteWe can basically say it's Neal vs Goligoski.
If you look at it in a very bold way it can make sense.
The thing is Pittsburgh has almost 0 thing aside that to offer, so maybe the Dallas GM just went for that.
Anyway, I still think St-Louis screwed Colorado by a mile more.
csimpson:
ReplyDeleteWith what? Whitney aside the Oilers don't have a single defenseman close to as productive as Goligoski. Gilbert may be better defensively but he cost more than twice as much and he's less productive.
Nice trade for Pittsburgh. I like Neal a ton.
ReplyDeleteAs an Oilers fan I am happy to see him headed to the Eastern Conference. It is unfortunate his change of address wasn't to Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers could use Niklas Hagman. Given that he's currently on offer free to a good home, I'd make him our trade deadline pick up. If nothing else he is a hell of a lot better than JF Jacques at playing hockey. I doubt Jacques scores 20 goals in his entire NHL career, let alone in one season.
ReplyDeleteWG: Those 0,5 PPG 3rd pair D-men.
ReplyDeleteAnd then Niskanen with less offensive flair than Smid.
FFS.
I doubt Jacques scores 20 goals in his entire NHL career, let alone in one season.
ReplyDeleteWell, on the one hand, at his present pace, he'd have to play 355 NHL games to get there. On the other hand, given the Oilers' management of him, he might just play 355 NHL games.
FBV,
ReplyDeleteTry seeing the forest for the trees.
Goligoski is a 3rd pair PP specialist. He's a rich man's Marc Andre Bergeron.
Neal is a big mean 1st line forward with hands.
Neal is much more rare than Goligoski.
I'll put some numbers up in a minute.
WG: I know, I was just attacking the Goligoski = Niskanen part.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference between the 2, but I still agree the trade is bad.
But I don't know how you get flabergasted by this trade and looked like the COL-STL was anything near reasonable.
The "PLAN", patent pending, does not require KLowe and ST to do anything at the trade deadline until 3 days before deadline. As a result, Oiler management is currently closed for business until later in February.
ReplyDeleteWhen reached for comment Steve Tambellini said "a lot of time, effort and thought went into the PLAN" and just because a bunch of unsuccessful GM's are getting desperate does not mean we will deviate from what was carefully thought out 11 months ago. When you move too quickly mistakes can happen"
Im curious as to why the Oilers are even shopping Penner and Hemsky to begin with. I feel a little embarrassed even asking but I dont understand why they would trade either one of those guys. I can comprehend their names floating around because of the season the Oilers are having and teams looking to win a Stanley Cup would love to have either guy come spring time but they are signed to cap friendly deals for still another year and are two of only 3 veteran forwards on this Oiler team (with the other obviously being 10) Yes maybe they get a younger player and a prospect or pick but it seems to me like it will make them even worse off next year and my feeling is that you just dont trade players like 83 or 27. I mean will a year from now we be saying and hearing rumors of the Oilers dangling Whitney because he is only signed for one more season and playoff teams will be asking about him? it just seems like a vicious cycle and not to sound clueless but can someone explain to me why they are even thinking about trading either one of those guys
ReplyDeletePS Love the site LT keep up the good work
Woodguy: How Souray's bupkis at midnight reflects on management depends on whether he was originally a stock or an option. With his injury history, I'd say at least 50% option.
ReplyDeleteSince his option expired and his equity also declined by half, he's only worth about a quarter of his original contract, but he still costs half.
What really damns management is the risk they were aiming to defray by grasping for false hope: being criticized on opening night--not that anyone here would do that.
This is the same level of asset management as taking a cash advance on that free Gold Platinum credit card that arrived last week because you can't make your minimum payment on the other three.
But fundamentally, Souray wanted the money. He seemed not to get that the Oilers cold-cocked the piggy bank in a circumstance where nothing short of dismemberment was keeping him off the ice at the beginning of the season after he signed his name to the $27m package in full knowledge of his physical health.
If he had said straight up "I'm determined to wait out the full term of my present recovery" the contract offer would have been closer to $22m on my reading of Oiler psychology. Resenting being rushed back is an egregious case of having your cake and eating it too.
Nothing like missing the playoffs by xmas to cast his massive overpay in a favorable light. Did he ever get that?
FPV: Yeah in a need-for-need way it makes sense. IMO, the cost is just too steep from the Dallas perspective. Although I will say, looking at their roster, what other winger could they have given up? Is Benn more/less desirable? You can't deal Morrow or Eriksson.
ReplyDeleteThe more and more of these deals that go down, it's kinda fascinating to see how teams value other teams players, and their own for that matter. It's markedly different than fans do.
Anonymous: nobody's said that the Oil are shopping Hemsky or Penner. The brains trust would be negligent however if they didn't listen to offers, just in case a batshit GM meets a hefty asking price.
ReplyDeleteHoly panic-button, Batman.
ReplyDeleteWhat a rotten, rotten deal for the Dallas Stars.
Neal is a good bet to score 35+ playing with Crosby or Malkin, and what happens if Niskanen rebounds to his form of 2 seasons ago?
J.F. Jacques will be playing on the Oilers until all of us are great-grandfathers. or at least until there's a burka-wearing Muslim woman-transexual president in the White House; not that there's anything wrong with that.
ReplyDeleteIn between spells on IR that make Sheldon Souray look like Gary Unger.
I admit it. it's mid afternoon and I'm drunk.
Goligoski has 31 points this year.
ReplyDelete14 at 5v5, 17 at 5v4
He doesn't even have the best PP numbers for a Dman on PITT, that is Letang, who plays more minutes on the PP and has more pts/60 than Goligoski.
His underlying numbers are:
ZoneStarts: 1/6 - Easiest on team 57.7. Ozone finish 52.7 2/6. So while the play finishes in the Ozone 5% less than it starts when he is on the ice. Not good.
Corsi QC 4/6
Corsi QT 6/6
RelCor 3/6 +3.8
So he plays the 2nd pairing QC with the dregs and comes out slightly ahead, but with the benefit of one of the easiest zone starts in the league.
A rich man's Marc Andre Bergeron.
/I wouldn't do either deal. My guess is that they feel Ott, Benn, Morrow duplicate his skill set and Goligoski is something they dont have./
ReplyDeleteIf you're unbalanced and have to trade for position, then you get less than 100c on the dollar. Having the 'best asset' doesn't help much if you wind up selling low. You have to build a hockey team, not a portfolio. BPA works in some sort of frictionless, highly transactional system, where that value can be wholly realized at your discretion. It can't. If you have six solid LW and a crummy goaltender, somebody is going to make hay at your expense.
@ WG
ReplyDeletewhen u take in Rel corsi QoC he is 5/6 making his numbers even more underwhelming
That was a terrible trade for Dallas. My condolences for them letting go of a very good powerforward who was still scratching the surface of his potential
ReplyDeleteJFJ will one day retire and become the head coach for one season before sliding into the vaunted GM position.
ReplyDeleteFrom there he will talk about the glory days when the Oilers finished last 6 seasons in a row.
Rory:Yes.
ReplyDeleteI think the question people are asking is: "Was that the best deal you could get for James Neal?"
Seems a little knee-jerky based on their precarious place in the standings and awful run of late.
Goligoski also has a 1032 PDO.
ReplyDeleteHahaha.
Would people be significantly upset if we dealt Souray and Cogliano to Montreal for Gomez?
ReplyDeleteWell one would have to hope that the same package couldn't have brought DAL Johnson or Bogosian.
ReplyDeleteWG: Well he's +20 so if he drops down that won't be so terrible for him.
ReplyDeleteNeal + for Goglgoski is a terrible deal for Dallas. You can see Dallas wanting to pick up a defenseman but moving a young, affordable and promising winger like Neal for an over rated powerplay specialist from Pittsburgh, where you know Golgoski is not the guy driving the bus on the powerplay, is just a terrible terrible deal.
ReplyDeleteIf JF Jaques plays 355 games as an Oiler, our long standing nightmare as Oiler fans doesn't end it merely becomes a punchline like the Chicago Cubs.
Went to a dallas game last year score was ties 3-3 in the last 30 seconds. I just finished telling my co-worker I'd trade the every oiler on the ice (10, 16, 18, 37, 40, 43) for James Neal when he puts the puck in the net. Oilers Lose 4-3.
ReplyDeleteHey Lowetide,
ReplyDeleteLong time reader and very rare poster. Wondering if you had moment if you would pop by my blog and let me know your thoughts. Thanks
http://thehockeycollector.blogspot.com/
Regarding the Dallas and Pittsburgh deal. It makes sense for both teams. Dallas needs an upgrade on D and Pittsburg could use some scoring depth. Niskanen was the throw in. My guess is Dallas initiated the deal hence the need to throw something in to sweeten the deal.
I do think Dallas may have been able to find more takers for Neal that could have offered more but maybe they were after something specific and they wanted to keep Neal out of the west. Hence this deal
Jon...
ReplyDeleteMake it Souray, Cogliano and Jacques, and your on.
FPB,
ReplyDeleteHe's not terrible.
He's actually pretty decent for a 3rd pairing guy.
He's not worth Neal, let alone Neal+.
Sorry... "you're". *smacks head*
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe postman always rings twice.
ReplyDeleteFirst, drafting Jack Campbell when Cam Fowler drops to you, and you know Fowler fills a desparate need.
The desparate need you now try to fill by dealing Neal for a mirage.
First, drafting Jack Campbell when Cam Fowler drops to you, and you know Fowler fills a desparate need.
ReplyDeleteThe desparate need you now try to fill by dealing Neal for a mirage.
Good point.
Ex-NHL'ers with a high school education make such great GM's eh?
Hey wasn't everyon.e praising Joe as GM a while back?
ReplyDeleteIt is a job that can make you look awful foolish awful fast.
I think Nieuwendyk has an Ivy League degree from Cornell...
ReplyDeleteIn thinking about possible returns for 27 and 83, the one thing that the last few days have done is make me re-think what the return could be.
ReplyDeleteGiven some of the guys that have moved, I'm now looking at other teams rosters, and where I used to say "No way," now I'm saying, "why not?"
Makes you wonder what ST is asking for if other teams are saying "the moon".
''His sweater (#25) was retired in Lynah Rink at Cornell University on February 26, 2010), the first sweater to be retired at Cornell (along with Ken Dryden's sweater #1).''
ReplyDeleteWG: Indeed.
We also don't know if DAL had to beat another team for Goligoski, CBJ for example. Which doesn't justify the trade, just sayin...
ReplyDeletehttp://img510.imageshack.us/i/penstrade.jpg/
ReplyDeleteWG...
ReplyDeleteHow does that PDO match up against others on the team? Can't remember what Fleury's SV% is, buf IIRC, it's pretty decent.
The "PLAN", patent pending, does not require KLowe and ST to do anything at the trade deadline until 3 days before deadline. As a result, Oiler management is currently closed for business until later in February.
ReplyDeleteOther John,
In case you missed it, the consensus around here seems to be that Tambo should hang onto Hemsky and Penner unless they get swept off their feet. That probably won't happen, if it does, until the deadline.
Unless you are really upset that they have not moved JVM for a third rounder yet (assuming someone wants JVM), they shouldn't really be doing anything but talking, should they?
WG...
ReplyDeleteHow does that PDO match up against others on the team? Can't remember what Fleury's SV% is, buf IIRC, it's pretty decent.
Goligoski's PDO is 5th/30 on the team. 2nd/20 for players with 20+ games played.
Hmmm let's see...Gomez - undersized over priced forward with fuck all upside and Kevin Lowe is heterosexually in love with him.
ReplyDeleteSounds ideal - for a loser franchise.
Lowebellini sitting on their collective digits represents about the most positive outcome imaginable for this February version of the Losers...oops Oilers.
ReplyDeleteNieuwendyk only spent 2 years @ Cornell so unless they have a technical school too, probably did not finish.
ReplyDeleteThey hung the jersey of a kid that did not graduate?
Nieuwendyk spent 3 years at Cornell.
ReplyDeleteA final year not impossible to complete over a couple of summers. I wonder if he did?
The lesson is that if you have a former hockey player making personel decisions for your multi-million dollar operation then you're probably dumb.
ReplyDeleteIn other news. The Oilers have a few of the above guys making the calls.
Smarmy Boss said...
ReplyDeleteThe lesson is that if you have a former hockey player making personel decisions for your multi-million dollar operation then you're probably dumb. In other news. The Oilers have a few of the above guys making the calls.
I believe the sample size bears this out.
;op
Noodles... Thanks much. Nothin really there then, but that is a high PDO for a defenceman.
The question is; is Penner hurt or is he playing for a trade? Montreal is interested. Now seems to me that Lars Eller and a draft pick would not be that shabby. Possibly some D exhange as in VDM for a young prospect.
ReplyDeleteOoops re:Neiw education.
ReplyDeletePDO gave me bad info.
Everyone knows Cornell shouldn't be ivy leauge.
Ha!
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8596/penstrade.jpg
ReplyDelete.... I was informed my picture didn't work, any luck now?
Ryan White (22 yrs old, RH, C, 6'0) and Andreas Engqvist (23 yrs old, RH, C, 6'4) are also interesting Mtl prospects as part of a return (if the Penner rumours are true). Jarred Tinordi is the only D-man prospect I can spot, that's mostly because he's 6'7.
ReplyDelete:o
From HF on Engqvist:
"In his first professional season in North America, Engqvist has found a niche for himself with the Bulldogs as a top penalty killer and defensive forward. Since arriving from Sweden, where he played the last four seasons, Engqvist has quickly demonstrated he can be relied upon in different on-ice situations, even if he is not producing points on a large scale. With Hamilton, through 46 games, he has scored six goals and assisted on eight others. Engqvist even earned a brief stint with Montreal. He averaged roughly 10 minutes of ice time in two games, registering an even plus/minus. Given his size, Engqvist's versatility is encouraging."
Montreal probably wants Penner because he would anger the montreal media more the Subban does.
ReplyDeleteSB: He does not anger the media.
ReplyDeleteAndrei Kostitsyn does.
Well, I noticed someone saying that Montreal had nothing to offer and then on checking saw that their farm team was leading their division so they have some talent in the minors.
ReplyDeleteOilers are weak at center so somone like Ellers who can skate with Hall and has a bit of mean for a Dane would be quite tempting. Besides he's bigger than Cogliano. No Biggie.
could we have not given
ReplyDeleteGilbert and Omark for Neal?
then traded Penner and signed Hemsky??
Dallas can't add salary like that right now. Getting Goggly is a lot cheaper than getting Gibbly.
ReplyDeleteTrust me, I know.
I see westerner Allan Maki caught up with me today when he wrote in the globe that these outdoor games have run their course because the conditions and play are so shitty.
ReplyDeleteAnd now I think the final blow has been dealt to the winter classics.
because apparently the cold conditions impacted Nieuendyk's brain to the point where he'd make such a trade.
Holy dear jesus does this deal ever have the potential to be terrible.
I mean if Gologoski eventally becomes a guy who can play tough opp and come out in the black And drive the PP, then this deal won't suck for Dal.
But if he doesn't then this is horrible.
FBP: btw, to echo what the boys have been saying about your take on this trade - and don't get me wrong I think you're way ahead of the curve for your age and you'll grow up with the Desjardins numbers being at your fingertips and most of us came to that at a much later age - James Neal is what you Hope Pacioretty becomes.
ReplyDeleteNo on to Souray.
ReplyDeleteI remember he was signed on a Thursday by the Oil because that's my softball night and I went to pick up my buddy and I was fucking crestfallen.
It was a terrible overpay because he didn't have history of playing tough comp but he did have a long injury history.
Now, while I think it's remarkable no one picked him up I guess I'll quote Colbert and say the market has spoken with the fact that he wasn't.
So, yeah, it becomes a damnation of one of Lowe's big summer moves and if people aren't still up his ass looking for the ice cream you'll see that sentiment trumpeted in tomorrow's papers, won't you?:)
and, yeah, it was delicious today reading Renney talking about how he could help a club and he wouldn't close the doors on him for next year and also 10 talking about what a great guy he was.
so, the wires are certainly crossed.
And Irony is not only delicious, it's good for you too!
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's any lock that Hemsky is going to be traded. Matty's been wrong before. And there has been just as much smoke around Penner's name.
ReplyDeleteI tell myself these things so I can sleep at night.
Just found this from Bob McKenzie's latest article at tsn:
ReplyDeleteLos Angeles has plenty of draft picks and young prospects in Manchester but if the Kings are to part with Brayden Schenn or, and this is a real long shot, Wayne Simmonds, it's going to take an astronomical contract player coming back. Personally, I would be leery of any Kings' trade rumor involving Simmonds or any other young, core player on the Kings' roster.
Story is here:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=354844
If BM is leery about LA dealing any of their prized young players, how are they supposed to acquire Richards or Hemsky or Penner?
ReplyDeleteI just saw that on TSN, LT. It's a funny little piece because McKenzie goes on about how the Kings are kicking the tires on Richards, Hemsky and Penner but he can't see them offering up either Schenn or Simmonds to acquire these guys. He also mentions how David Clarkson isn't being shopped around but he could be "pried" out of New Jersey for the right price. If the Kings are trying to land one of these big fish, they are going to have to give up something of quality, aren't they? You would think that they would have to break the bank to get a player like Hemmer or Penner because of their on-ice worth and the fact that they are not rentals but after today's Dallas-Pittsburgh deal, you really never know.
ReplyDeleteSee this page, for the podcasts of Renney and Horcoff that Dennis mentioned.
ReplyDeleteLike Dennis said, Horcoff called Souray a good guy and great team mate, and Renney said he'd take him.
Setting up for Souray to stay up?
Captain and Coach letting management know they think they're wrong?
Just the truth and nothing to see here?
Interesting either way.
Interesting article by Helene Elliott who is the Matty of the Kings.
ReplyDeleteCalls out Lombardi for his "paralysis by analysis" and accuses him of "dithering"
Let's not get too hopeful that the team stages a coup to get Souray back. We can't forget how decisive ST (egged on by KLowe) can be once he is offended.
ReplyDeletenemo me impune lacessit
Woodguy, I wish Helene wrote for the Journal--refreshing style from a fan's perspective.
ReplyDeleteAs for Hemmer, Matty floated a rumor of Dustin Brown for Hemsky prior to the start of last season. It was met with outrage by most Oilers fans at the time.
Dennis: I'm only playing the devil's advocate.
ReplyDeleteI know PIT blatently wins but I don't think it'S the tragedy of the year either.
Way more convinced Colorado got shafted for the decade.
Just a quick note Woodguy from someone 4000 clicks from Edmonton and rather out of the local loop, I appreciate the odd link to an interesting article in the MSM if thats not an oxymoron. Keep it up.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy, I wish Helene wrote for the Journal--refreshing style from a fan's perspective.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
We are fed such soggy pablum in Edmonton from the MSM.
Would love to see a Helene Elliott here or even a Larry Brooks.
Jones and Barnes have been more critical lately, but Barnes usually covers his ass somewhere in the article.
McKenzie was on Off The Record's Last Question session and was asked about a bunch of players and if they'd stay or go.
ReplyDeleteHe said 83 would go but 27 would stay.
certainly not what we want to hear.
Thanks KT.
ReplyDeleteYour stuff has always been among the cream of the crop here, and I always learn from your posts.
Your big post on needing 10 NHL/NHL ready dmen is still transcendent and should be required reading by NHL GMs.
4000km? Where are you?
Dennis,
ReplyDeleteStauffer has Hemsky staying if they don't trade him and he's way closer to the team, and especially Katz.
WG: if he was so close then he wouldn't even be on the block; unless the Oilers are totally stupid.
ReplyDeleteI'm getting the old Smyth vibes and I hope Richards comes back healthy and the Kings make a play for him.
Nowhere has anyone said he's on the block.
ReplyDeleteConsidering Dean's aversion to risk and Dallas being dumb as all hell. I suspect they'll take a woozy Richards.
ReplyDeleteSB: Are you saying there's someone dumber than the Stepbrothers? I don't buy it.
ReplyDeleteKind of a frustrating pre-deadline so far as two of my very favorites, Erik Johnson and James Neal have been moved but damn, the Oilers just don't have the currency required to make such a trade.
ReplyDeleteThe cards they do have is as follows:
Veteren Ace- Hemsky
Hemsky is probably better than anyone that'll move this deadline and if that's the case, at his age and cap hit you're better to keep him.
Veteren King- Penner
This is a tradeable chip if we get a Vet King back of a different suit (Stastny, EJ) but really, we make that move and all of a sudden we've got no size in our top 6 at all so you've just replaced one hole with another.
Young Aces- Hall, Eberle, Paajarvi, Gagner
These assets hardly ever move and never from a selling team.
Overpaid (yet valuable) 9's- Horcoff and Gilbert
Excellent players that could really help a team win in the playoffs but the issue is those cap hits. Add to that, these guys are probably more important to Edmonton than to any other team out there you don't really have much chance to see them move.
Young Wildcards- Omark, Petry, Chorney, Peckham, Dubnyk
These guys aren't helping anyone win anything this year and hold considerable value to a rebuilding team.
Tradeable 5's-10's- Cogliano, Brule, Smid, Jones, Reddox
These guys have value to the Oilers and have varying degrees of value to contending teams but the value would be a prospect or a pick or as a "sweetener". Kind of the Matt Niskanen of today's trade.
Tradeable 2's-4's- Vandemeer, Foster,
I think you could get a 5th rounder for these guys and I hope they do it.
Untradeable pieces of shit- Colin Fraser and Nik Khabibulin
I remain convinced that Colin Fraser is the worst regular player in the NHL, marked by his 4th worst P/60. Maybe Troy Bodie is worse...coin toss. Khabi
s like Colin Fraser with a 4 million dollar cap hit.
To make a long story short, jumping in with both feet like Toronto and Ottawa isn't in the cards this year for the Oil and moving 83 or 27 because we think selling teams should sell would be a mistake. Realistically, I expect 2 and 26 to go. I'd also be willing to wager some of the herd of small bottom sixers like Cogs, Brule, Jones or Reddox go because they'd be perfectly suitable depth for a good team. Problem is, none of those guys brings back a B+ level prospect or first round draft pick.
Likely outcome:
OUT
Vandermeer, Fraser, Jones, Cogliano
IN
4th, 5th, 2nd and Dmitri Orlov
Now, saying that I really think there is one overlooked area a smart GM could make hay; salary cap hit acquisition. Maybe it's Smid to Boston for Ference's 2.5 hit and a first. Maybe it's Turco from Chicago for Gerber and a 3rd. Maybe it's Liam Reddox and his minimum for Jiri Hudler and his 2.9 x 2. Maybe it's Rolston and his 5.5x2 plus a first for Cogliano.
ReplyDeleteThese are high risk-high reward plays and only a rebuilding team with a rich owner and tons of cap space can engage in them which means Tambo will not have to blaze his own trail. Not very optimistic.
WG: if he was so close then he wouldn't even be on the block; unless the Oilers are totally stupid.
ReplyDeleteDennis, you need to relax, man. The riots in the middle east apparently pale in comparison to a possible trade of Hemsky :-)
This is 30th place team, WITH Hemsky and Penner.
Any good GM in the same position should be listening to offers on anyone not named Hall, Eberle, or MPS.
Ducey: Until we fix the crap defense, PK, and Goaltending, I personally can't blame them.
ReplyDeleteDucey
ReplyDeleteI have never mentioned trading Penner or Hemsky or at least do not recall any comment to that effect.
We have a roster full of holes.Tons of them: 2 top 4 D men, a boatload of smurfs, nobody to win a draw, a very weak 4th line, $7.15m buried in the minors.
We have all but assured ourselves of a top 3 pick in a 2011 draft with no consensus #1. We cannot assure ourselves of a #1 pick. A coin flip does that. So we are where we want to be.
So maybe it is time for management to get off their freaking hands and start filling in holes.
Atlanta just used Boston's salary cap dilemma (could not trade for Kaberle till they moved salary) to squirrel Wheeler onto their roster. Nice young very big man.
Us, we have a PLAN, patent pending, and are sitting back watching other teams get better
Wonder if the PLAN consists of seeing how FREAKING BAD we can be for 3 to 5 years
This is 30th place team, WITH Hemsky and Penner.
ReplyDeleteYou mean that the Oilers are a 30th place team despite Hemsky and Penner.
I can't understand how people look at the best players on a bad team and blame them.
Its the bad players, not the good ones.
Its the bad players because they outnumber the good ones by 3-1 or 4-1 on this team.
Its also players being put in positions where they are expected to perform above reasonable expectations (i.e. Gilbert being a 1st pairing D)
Don't blame 2 of the 5 actual NHL players on this team for the result of the whole.
KT,
ReplyDeleteStastny is very interesting.
6.6MM/yr for another 3 years after this.
Only 25 years old and has 309pts in 331 NHL games for 0.934pts/game.
Solves the 1C question immediately.
What does COL need, besides the need to dump salary?
WG/KT...
ReplyDeleteWould Colorado take Penner for Stastny to replace the size and scoring they just lost in Stewart?
Is that enough of a dump for them salary wise? Would we have to sweeten that deal? Interesting to think about.
WG/KT
ReplyDeleteGagner, Smid and a good prospect
The Avs are owned by the Kroenke family and they just got rid of a shitload of payroll on the basketball team.
Saving $$$?
I wonder if a Gagner + for Stastny would entice them?
ReplyDeleteSB: That would be great for us, but that would lead to believe the Avs' Gm is a carbon copy of Mike Milbury.
ReplyDeleteDon't blame 2 of the 5 actual NHL players on this team for the result of the whole.
ReplyDeleteI am not blaming anyone, but Hemsky is not Crosby. Penner is not Sedin. They are not untouchable. And this team has been bad for two seasons.
Accordingly, you have to see if you can get something better for them. You don't pull the trigger unless you can, or need to (can't sign them).
I don't think we have to test the market to know we ain't gettin Crosby back in a trade.
ReplyDeleteHowever there are very few guys who produce at EVs like Hemsky, so an upgrade can't really be the issue.
Balance is. Thats why I think Penner is the one who will be moved but it only makes sense for an equal stud on D or in the middle. But as KT points out, we would still have a size hole up front.
The plan? That's obvious.
ReplyDeleteWait until Hall and Eberle dominate against all opposition, meanwhile blowing as hard as possible.
Collect the primo draft picks meanwhile, thus adding real talent to complement H+E.
Hope(but not expect) to add another player of their calibre.
And finally, fill in the holes.
I think Hunter nailed it.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers don't think they have the top end talent to compete with anyone right now to win a cup.
So the plan is literally that Hall and Eberle are elite players (hence the idiotic 4-6 year timeline).
Once they're elite players (ignoring that it's pretty hard to develop these guys into elite players while being in last place), they'll have a stable of kids to put around them on ELC's.
... ugh....
Who penned the old adage that you load up on picks at the deadline and trade bodies at the draft? I hope they keep Hemsky and Penner at least by the draft or into the summer to try and sign them...
ReplyDeleteLet's look at it from Souray's perspective:
ReplyDeleteNominal $5.4M - reduced by the clawback - to play for the league's worst franchise, in a fishbowl where fans are prone to believing every word fed them by Oilers managers and the Fishwrap scribblers.
Or the full $5.4M to toil in virtual no-pressure anonymity in Podunk, PA.
He's basically collecting a $10.8M pension.
Clearly, Souray is a man to be envied.
Interesting article by Helene Elliott, who is the Matty of the Kings.
ReplyDeleteShe's in the hockey hall of fame's pencil-neck wing for populating 30 years of columns with excessive ellipses?
The problem with Hemsky is considering his ho-hum PP rates and recent injury history, its hard to get full value on the trade market.
ReplyDeletePretty much the only way to get an equal or better player is to get an unproven prospect. You can mitigate your risk with due diligence, however development is sometimes slow and wonky at best.
Keeping Hemsky makes sense if you're 100% you can extend him, or if he has a brilliant season next year and has major value at the trade deadline. Again both have risk involved.
It doesn't seem like Edmonton are really interested in competing next year, or 2013. If thats the case, and they arent going to bring in talent to help the young kids the next couple seasons, then I think trading Hemsky is the proper decision. Why invest 5M into a guy thats going to be on a bad team during his prime years, and a pending UFA once again when the team is ready to compete?
I think EDM could concievably be a playoff team next year with the right moves, but thats a complicated issue with the young talent thats in the system, and will want an opportunity to play.
Personally, I think after this draft EDM should start stocking for the playoffs, but if a bluechip prospect like Brayden Schenn is in play (Hes playing in the NHL next year) we could see a really special prospect core taking place. Flip Gagner for Bogosian and youd have:
C: Schenn, Couturier/RNH, Lander
W: Hall, Eberle, MPS
D: Bogosian, Petry, Peckham