Folks, it's vital Steve Tambellini gets 100 cents on the dollar for this player. Hemsky's reputation in our town comes partly because 83 hasn't played in a really important game in forever; the last time he did (2006 spring) he was just 22 and scored 6-11-17 in 24 games.
I think he'll end up in Los Angeles, with the Kings. Why? LAK have been shopping for a quality winger since Heatley and they went to the wall for Kovalchuk and lost the battle. At some point Dean Lombardi will need to pull the trigger or face a repeat of the 2002-03 season in San Jose; that was the year the Sharks were supposed to go deep into the playoffs but struggled early and never got untracked.
The Kings player and prospect tree is ample and lush. It's like a Baywatch episode. Derek Forbort (a mountain on the blue), Thomas Hickey (puck mover), Viatcheslav Voynov (puck mover) Colton Teubert (nasty piece of work) are some of their defensive prospects and the team has some nice forwards too.
I suspect the Oilers will be asking for a top end forward, although Schenn may be tough to pry away from Lombardi. Oscar Moller, Andrei Loktionov and Wayne Simmonds may be available but are not in Schenn's range. Simmonds could be a key component, though.
Is that enough? Would you consider Braydon Schenn and Viatcheslav Voynov enough? I'd prefer Hemsky stays, but as we approach the deadline I think the Oilers are leaning toward moves that move the median age closer to Taylor Hall.
I hope to live long enough to see this team mature. Tambellini must get 100 cents on the dollar.
I sure the hell hope if we deal Hesmky we get either help on the blue or a center.
ReplyDeleteTambellini must get 100 cents on the dollar.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to see him go.
If he has to, it's got to be an equal return.
LT, you sounded great on 1260 yesterday.
Cheers
A friend of mine is a Kings fan, and pointed me to this ridiculous article yesterday. Take it with a grain of salt because it's by Kings Hockeybuzz blogger Matthew Barry, but my friend said he does have a contact or two:
ReplyDeleteI was told last night that the Oilers had offered Hemsky for Teubert or Muzzin and either Richardson or Lewis. Considering Teubert cost the Kings TWO first round draft picks and Fisher only cost the Preds one, maybe a wee bit of overpayment?
For a player with concussion issues and who has never scored more than 23 goals… although since he is frequently hurt, he fits right in with Smyth and Williams. He’s also another RIGHT winger where the Kings are looking for a LEFT winger to play with Kopitar. (Hello Dustin “never lived up to my potential” Penner!)
But a source close to the Kings organization told me this morning that the Kings “have offered this years pick” – Don’t know if its for any of the Oilers players, but Lombardi is certainly trying to improve the team.
Let me get this straight, Mr. Barry, Teubert and Lewis for Hemsky is an overpay on YOUR part? F'ing moron.
First off, I think we can assume it's NOT true because if it were, Lombardi would have done that deal in a heartbeat, while laughing all the way to the playoffs.
Secondly, I point it out because we talk a lot about how fans, and even organizations, value their players/prospects differently. It really is difficult to sit here and throw out names of what we'd LIKE to get from L.A., but who really knows how Lombardi sees Hemsky. I'd like to think he sees a bit more than the twit that wrote that piece.
If all we got for Hemsky is the players mentioned by Mr. Barry, Tambellini is even worse than I thought!
ReplyDelete... and that's the key, moving the window toward Hall and Eberle.
ReplyDeleteI'm in the camp that doesn't want Hemsky traded, but if we do, it better be for 110% (it be nice if LA overpaid) on the dollar.
I guess the whole "trade or keep Hemsky" debate (and Penner also) depends on when you think this Oiler team will be competitive. I'm of the belief that this team is going nowhere for another for another 3-4 years, which makes Hemsky and Penner 31-32(?) when this team's window finally opens up.
And if that's the case I'd rather have more quality players in the Hall/Eberle window then an almost past their prime Hemsky and Penner whose 31-32 year old production can be hopefully easier replaced via free agency.
They need better than Hickey or Teubert in any package.
ReplyDeleteThose are the kind of guys for whom you trade Cogliano.
For Hemsky you need more.
I suspect I am not going to be very happy the day Hemsky gets traded.
ReplyDeleteTambellini doesn't have to trade him so I think this haggling might go right to the deadline wall as Tambellini attempts to play chicken with the GMs, hoping one craters to bis demands.
And I think either Toffoli or Martindale should be in the discussion.
ReplyDeleteLol, I hope by quality winger they don't mean shooter (which is what Heatley and Kovalchuk are) because they won't get that in Hemsky.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI keep asking myself the same question though - at what point in the rebuild is it prudent to start surrounding your youngsters with veterans they can learn from? The core should no doubt be young, but there has to be a bit of a shift at some point.
ReplyDeleteIs Schenn likely to be any better than Gagner? They look very similar to me.
ReplyDeleteI could see these guys bringing Smytty back to try to boost ticket sales.
It seems like Hemsky is in play for sure. Scares me a bit. wish I was more comfortable with tambellini making this deal. Full price is essential, and to be honest we are in a position where we can ask for 110% value. Teams like LA are desperate, and Tambellini needs to be a shark. Killer instinct dammit! Schenn and their 1st rd pick and a d prospect(Teubert etc.) is the minimum.
ReplyDeleteIf we make that deal i hope that is the end of our "youth" movement. We'll have 2 or 3 more rookies in the lineup next year, and we need to add actual NHL players to fill out the NHL lineup.
Needs:
- toughness
- PK/faceoff 3rd/4th line centre
- tough stay at home dman for top pair
So make the Hemsky trade,and add two UFA's who fit the needs. The two guys I would target (one is a Stauffer favorite)
- Mark Stuart - stay at home dman is 27 at years end, is a UFA coming off a Smid like deal and fits our needs as a stay at home top pairing young dman. May need an overpay, but a 4/5 year deal for $4 mill solves a lot of our problems and adds a tough minute, penalty killing dman we sorely lack and his age fits our rebuild.
- Zenn Konopka - 4th line gritty centre. he is a monster at faceoffs (58.3%), kills penalties and fights anyone (and is hugely popular with his team). And he would not be expensive. Give him a 2 year deal and that solves a lot of our problems.
You can also move Gagner and/or Cogliano to fill other needs, especially if you expect Lander to fill the all swede line centre position. And you can add anyone you want in the draft, since you slot Schenn in out top 2 centre spots, and add Lander and Konopka.
This may be Tambellini's legacy, the way the Pronger/magic bean fiasco is Lowe's. For his sake, he better not fuck it up.
ReplyDeleteThere should be several teams bidding for Hemsky & Penner so there shouldn't be any question about getting 100 cents on the dollar, if not more.
I am excited with the prospect of Hemsky being traded. But his value lies in the 2nd liner with Inj issues. So young Blue Chip prospect or a Simmonds and this years 1st is A OK with me.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we will get to see a player that has an inkling about Gap Awareness or has something else in his bag of tricks other then the thread the needle cross ice pass...
In my opinion, there are two key outcomes that need to happen this year:
ReplyDelete1. The results must match the performances.
We know the management are stupes in this regard (Lupul, Brule, Nilsson, the run at the end of 07/08, Arguably Horcoff's contract, soon to be Jones, etc) so this is paramount. So far so good - the Oilers haven't been particularly lucky or unlucky to my eye. They're 30th in the league on merit.
2. They must get quality for Hemsky, Penner, or both if they decide to suck for another couple of years. I think Hemsky and Penner have huge value. You're talking about about quality WC players available for two playoff runs PLUS a full season at below market value. I think each is worth the trade partner's best prospect plus a first rounder. Ideally you get a player in the NHL on an ELC, but that is a tall order.
A couple of bonuses:
1. Losing regularly on HNIC.
2. Watching the Flames make the playoffs.
Those would be good just to watch the fuckers squirm. ;)
I have never watched Schenn and thought = #1 center.
ReplyDeleteTo me he's Stoll. His ceiling looks like a #2 and on a really good team he's probably a really, really good #3.
Could we use that? Of course, but to those who think Schenn is untouchable, that's rich. I think causal fans think that all lottery picks are created equal, and are seduced by draft pedigree.
I agree that this is Tambo's legacy. These two poker chips (Hemmer and Penner) are they key to this rebuild. Whether he re-signs them or trades them, the outcome will likely determine how fast, or if at all, this team is built into the contender that it should be.
Here's one for the group: Sam Gagner is -17 since Boxing Day. What to do?
ReplyDeleteSomeone made a comment in the prior thread that I thought was valid. The gist being, you don't trade Hemsky or Penner for players like Simmonds, etc...as it looks like we have young players to fill that role coming through the organization.
ReplyDeleteIf you really think guys like Hartikainen and Hamilton are going to come good (no reason to think they won't on current evidence) then you have to reach higher than Simmonds.
The team needs high-end defenseman and an upgrade at center. I think that has to be the target in 83/27 trades. Whatever you don't get back, you target in the draft (Larsson, Couturier, etc.
Quit playing him on that shitty line?
ReplyDeleteJust play him with 27 and 83 until the deadline and go 4-10-14 for the other line.
The thing I don't like about Schenn is that the WJC likely skewed his value too much to the high side.
ReplyDeleteBut LT is correct that another quality prospect would have to be included.
If I'm Tambo,
ReplyDeleteI'm putting Jones in any package I'm sending out as sweetner.
Surely the a deal with the Kings looks better with Hemsky and Jones for...
Two wingers to help in the push (one having a career year and maybe a solid bottom 6 cog for the Push)
Hell if the Kings are looking for wingers and we are literally full steam ahead rebuild, take salary back send them Cogs, Penner, Hemsky, Jones
Take back Smyth, Simmonds, Schenn, a conditional set of picks (based on Kings distance in the playoffs this year)and a solid D prospect.
Penner - upgrades on Smyth (at a lower hit/less injuries) balance Simmonds
Hemsky/Cogs - Win now Schenn and Forbort
Jones - conditonal picks (min 2nd rounder this year)and overpay if the stars align.
If we're going to send one of them away, we are not looking to next year PERIOD. If that's the case then why half ass it?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI abolutely would not understand a Hemsky trade to the Kings where Simmonds is the centerpiece. What on earth would we need another third/fourth line right winger for? It would be an updgrade on team physicality but in my mind Simmonds would be a throw-in. The real centerpiece would have to be a prospect that fills a position of need like center or defense. I'd settle for nothing less than Schenn. If it didn't clearly satisfy one of our gaping holes then its a trade that shouldn't and doesn't need to be made.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLT, I managed to catch your segment with John Short. It was great! Where can I get a podcast copy? I couldn't find it at Team 1260 or at the ON.
ReplyDeleteI looked up Konopka and came across a really funny trade that he was involved in:
"1/26/2007 Anaheim Ducks traded Zenon Konopka, Curtis Glencross and a conditional 7th round selection in 2007 or 2008 to the Columbus Blue Jackets for Joe Motzko, Mark Hartigan and a 4th round selection in 2007."
Wow!
Then,
ReplyDeleteTallon seems like he's a mover so Gagner for Weiss throw in a Brule esque type body and take a low pick if this makes it more palatable.
Draft RNH or Cout
Horcoff Hall Eberle
RNH/Cout Magnus Omark
Weiss FROLOV?? Simmonds
Omara Teemu Reddox
Whitney
2yr overpay Def D
Gilbert
LA king prospect
Petry
Peckham
Smid
I know there are some ifs in here but why not...
You let schenn or this years 1st prove in the AHL with a piled up cluster of prospects and you build up with cap in mind for the long haul. Phasing in assests as AHL/cap dictates
Ah right, scratch Frolov and insert Smyth in the mix.
ReplyDeleteI am excited with the prospect of Hemsky being traded. But his value lies in the 2nd liner with Inj issues. So young Blue Chip prospect or a Simmonds and this years 1st is A OK with me.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we will get to see a player that has an inkling about Gap Awareness or has something else in his bag of tricks other then the thread the needle cross ice pass...
This post had my head hurting after the first sentence, but the 2nd paragraph really put it over the top.
Hemsky's our best damn forward, and frankly, I don't get where along the line it became so "en vogue" to crap all over the guy's game.
Trading him, barring a significant overpay (some say $1.10 on the dollar, I'd be shooting even higher than that), would be a mistake.
Keep the good players we do have, and get more good players.
As for Lowetide's question about Gagner, two things they could do:
1) Start line matching and actually trying to shelter a line where both wingers are rookies and the "veteran conscience" is a 21 year old center.
2) Do what RiversQ suggested and go back to the 4-10-14, 27-89-83 alignment, because both those lines could likely handle tougher matchups while 91-13-23 (or something similar) were fed the soft matchups.
I have no faith in Mr. Dithers, at all.
ReplyDeleteHe makes me think the Oil are the new Islanders.
Schenn was a #5 pick in a deep draft (behind Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, and Kane).
ReplyDeleteHe fits the powerforward center role. He can be a #1 C. But I think you need another prospect with him for Hemmer.
Hickey is a better Chorney. Teubert looks about equal with Plante.
Forbort is the guy I target. A potential #1 Dman. 6'5" guy who can skate and has good instincts.
I bet LA is trying to turn Vey and Toffoli into gold. They are leading the WHL and OHL in scoring, but won't score that well as pros.
So, Hemsky for Schenn and Forbort. If I really need to I'd throw in Martindale to get Forbort or maybe flip third rounders.
BUT, I still think Tambo needs to target Seguin and Boston first: Hemsky and the Oilers first for Seguin and Toronto's first.
Also,
ReplyDeleteInterchange MPS, Omark and Smyth as needed.
Lander to the AHL for the year.
The word on the online street (ie, a GM asked a question by, I think, Spector) is that Hemsky is available, but Tambellini is "asking way too much".
ReplyDeleteI think that's a good thing.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLT: Going back to your question about 89, those numbers are like the classical greased skids for a deal aren't they? Is that what you were getting at? I know I raised the question a month ago, but I was only in favour of making that kind of deal if they were certain 89 was not a top sixer. I think that still stands, but my previous answer was assuming that they want to be more effective with the current lineup.
ReplyDeleteThere's no sense playing 13 in the top 6 if Horcoff is available.
Tambellini is "asking way too much"
ReplyDeleteIf true, this is good news. These two are not typical deadline deals, so why would anyone expect typical deadline rental prices? Players in their prime, signed below value for another year, tried and tested in the real conference, and legit first liners. There's no way that should be cheap.
LT
ReplyDeleteWas that you that just poured gas on the Sam Gagner fire!! What's next: last bodycheck thrown by Tom Gilbert Sept 2009? What a bargain Shawn Horcoff's contract will be in the last 2 years?
You just trying to see if the boys are awake this a.m.
On Hemsky trade I would be surprised if we get multiple picks/prospects out of LA. hemsky is more valuable than Fisher but not by what guys are posting here. Then if we get the best prospect in LA system we will be mad.
Still like Johanssen from Columbus. Bigger body, creative and think he would be a great fit with Hall. Equally desperate GM
LT's new show taught me something. Not stats geek but Jon Willis,who is a pretty good one, looks firstly at Zone starts, quality of competition, then Corsi/Fenwick. I have said, at least one million times, that Oilers should trade for or sign Boyd Gordon. If I am using Willis's preferred metrics right: Gordon gets lots of def zone starts, against good Qual Comp and is in high 50's in FO%. And kills penalties. Guess sometimes " saw him good" can actually correlate with advanced analytics
Khabi has a 0.860 SV% in his last 9 games, according to the TSN stat page. On 30 shots/game, he'll let in 4.2 goals/game. Winning with any regularity is impossible at that rate.
ReplyDeleteBut Dubnyk has played reasonably well, yet he sees few games.
The league would have a good case that the Oilers are intentionally tanking, as good a case as if Tambellini brought up an ECHL D-men to play tough minutes instead of Gilbert, Smid, etc. The ECHL'er might not do as good a job at getting the goals against as high as Khabi, and just like there are obviously better options in the system than the ECHL'er, there are obviously better options than Khabi.
I'm dead serious. Tanking is provable in this case.
The word on the online street (ie, a GM asked a question by, I think, Spector) is that Hemsky is available, but Tambellini is "asking way too much".
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't surprise me (and I agree it's a good thing). Whatever Tambellini's myriad failings, hasty trades (or bad trades of any kind, really), aren't among them. I think he's probably much more prone to reject deals he should accept than he is the opposite, which in this case is good.
If we have any indication that Hemsky would be interested in re-upping for reasonable money, we should be requiring at least $1.10 on the dollar. If we know for certain that he wants to get the hell out of here, $1.00 is fine.
RQ: Yes. I've wondered for awhile now why on earth they'd keep running that line out there when the beatdown is so thorough.
ReplyDeleteBut they keep running them out there. At one point the line was so high event that a 5-point run for each player in a 3-game period netted them each a -1 (or something close).
But at this point the offense isn't there either and the bleeding continues.
I'm running out of reasons why you'd do that, and one of them is "frame the issue."
Also,
ReplyDeleteI would throw Gagner and Smid in the mix for Weiss and something.
Get creative. Go big or go home and utilize our current assests/pick to strengthen are percieved weakness on defense and/or center.
Aside from Smyth, we are a stacked front end and some development/astute moves away from having the type of backend we need to truly compete (my 2012 picks would be directly pointed at the RFA market, for a long term solution here).
Had not seen it before but really like Ducey's idea of Hemsky and our first for Sequin and Toronto's #1
ReplyDeleteVery good young center and a top 8 pick. Might have to take Mike Ryder ( expiring contract) or maybe they will want to get rid of Ference to get him out of the dressing room and make salaries work for Boston
We could also pull a Sam Pollock and trade some of our unwanted smurfs to whoever plays Toronto the most after the trade deadline and thereby lower TO in standing= higher draft pick
Can't resist talking trades. My piece:
ReplyDeleteDLombardi barely has a pulse at the best of times. He's going to have to accept a long-term loss to give his team a chance to make noise this year and next but that's a tough pill to swallow for any gm much less glacier Dean.
Oilers have so many ways they could help improve the optics of a trade for whatever dance partner is willing to overpay. Schenn + Forbort + 1st is a nice return but that package is not worth Hemsky. It would be like the Oilers giving up Eberle + Petry + 2nd last year for a guy with legitimate injury concerns, say Gaborik (in a hypothetical world where Oilers are around 10th best in the league and Gaborik had a good contract with 100 games left). A difficult pill to swallow.
It would be alot more palatable if, along with the return came a B+ prospect like Ryan Martindale who's value will likely never be higher. If nothing else it would protect the gm from ridicule to have a long-term piece to point to once Hemsky is gone.
I see some people in this thread having unreasonable expectations, overvaluing Hemmer and undervaluing Schenn. Hemsky is cool but not a guy that gets u the best return of any deadline deal in years if for no other reason than that he is criminally underrated league wide. Now is the time to start turning 20 nickels into a solid dollar bill.
Oilers need to address either 1C or 1/2D and to do that there should be no shame in NOT absolutely fleecing a gm, so long as the team in the long run is better because you walk away with a future star + at the toughest positions to fill in hockey. I'm not saying you force Hemsky out the door but I would be happy to see-
Hemsky+Martindale+3rd 2012
for
Schenn+Forbort+1st
Mind you my thoughts change hourly this time of year. Sorry for rambling, best of luck and congrats on a great first show LT.
"I think he's probably much more prone to reject deals he should accept than he is the opposite, which in this case is good."
ReplyDeleteInteresting point.
Rejecting a deal that should be accepted is, my guess, usually never known publically; is "safer" in terms of job security/public scrutiny.
Accepting a trade that "should have been" rejected is much riskier. Everyone knows, including your bosses.
One positive (or at least not neagtive) is Tambellini did not give out more than 2 year deals last summer to anyone IIRC.
I'd ask for Loktionov, Voynov AND theyr 1st round selection.
ReplyDeleteI think the difference between Schenn and Loktionov's prices will be huge versus theyr actual differences.
And an extra 1st rounder is always nice to have.
Maudite: Excellent. The Panthers have openly said they were in a rebuild and probably look to ship out the old rebuild guys (Horton's out, Weiss and Olesz still there. Of course Nedorost and Tacitek are already gone)
ReplyDeleteRejecting a deal that should be accepted is, my guess, usually never known publically; is "safer" in terms of job security/public scrutiny.
ReplyDeleteYeah, obviously we don't know what he's rejected - I maybe should have said "not explored trades that were available". I'm just talking about the fact that this team has had glaring holes since forever, and there have been no trades to fill them.
But really, of the trades he has made, I can't find much fault. Cole for O'Sullivan is the one that stands out in hindsight, but a lot of us liked that at the time. Wild for Marquardt was lousy, but on the other hand, who gives a shit?
His (major league) free agent signings, on the other hand, are pretty much universally shit, and recognizeable as shit at the time (that most people other than me* didn't recognize that the Foster one was lousy is an indictment of them, rather than a defense of Tambellini).
*I throw this in because I am so consistently wrong in my hockey prognostications, that the odd time that I'm right I make constant reference to it.
Whatever Tambellini's myriad failings, hasty trades (or bad trades of any kind, really),
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't make good trades either though. Please name one of consequence.
The closest I can think of is Whitney for Visnovsky. However, he traded away the better player for this year and next for a guy that should be more valuable after that but has major injury questions that puts all of that in jeopardy.
He doesn't make good trades either though. Please name one of consequence.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree, hence my comment that he probably turns down more that he should accept than vice versa. On the trade front, Tambellini's sins are of omission, which in the Hemsky context I find encouraging.
I don't think GM's give up players like Schenn or Seguin. Even if the return is good, GM's hold on to those kind of prospects. So those deals won't happen, certianly not for a player like Hemsky or Penner, with only one year left before UFA.
ReplyDeleteThe most likely return is picks, IMO, e.g. Hemsky and a 3rd for a 1st and a second. Something like that.
Not worth it in my opinion, but it's looking more and more likely.
O'Sullivan for Vandermeer sucked. Brodziak for whatever also sucked. The Staios trade was meaningless. (Actually Staios would be in the second pairing right now and was a quality leader, so I'm not sure of any upside here.)
ReplyDeleteI don't think my thoughts on a deal with the kings are that unreasonable.
ReplyDeleteMake the sweetner whatever seems best. Ideally move out guys I don't think really fufill a longterm role in here if possible. Whatever way you need to make the optics work is the way it should be done. The base is the same
Two top 6 wingers on great deals plus future or present sweetner for:
Schenn
Forbort
Smyth (2 mill less than Penner, same term so compensation needs to come our way)
Simmonds
+plus whatever needs to happen
It delays our window being wide open next year (we're not going to be able to string together the moves needed to capitalize with these guys still fence sitting)
It does not replace but Simmonds bumps our RW options.
Forbort gives us one of those longer term D bluechips we lack
Schenn gives us another talented, shooting center. Between him and this years draft, this somewhat makes Gagner a bit of a redudant piece (younger, presently cheaper options with similar upside imo)
This is where the need to convert Gagner plus pieces into a better two way center option comes into play and I think Weiss could accomplish that (and we have enough pieces to make that palatable to Tallon).
You have
Weiss/Horcoff Hall Eberle - potential outscore PVP
RNH/Cout/Schenn MPS Omark - soft opp
Weiss/Horc Smyth Simmonds (solid 2/3 line for harder opp)
I don't think I'm being unreasonable here at all. It's a huge shift in personnel but I think it puts us more on track than clinging on to what we have.
The Vandermeer trade got us a serviceable bottom pairing guy for a year while saving us buy-out money. The Staios trade was highway robbery (and "quality leader" doesn't seem to be the current narrative on the Moreau-Staios leadership team, though obviously none of us can say for sure); the sin there was again of omission, in failing to replace him.
ReplyDeleteI guess my definition of "bad trade" probably needs some clarification: a bad trade is when what's being given up has a higher market value than what's being acquired. I don't think there's any way that's true in the Staios case.
Tambellini's failing, besides the other-worldly free agent signings, is that he has no plan for actually putting a team together. He thinks, "hey, a third rounder and Aaron Johnson for an overpriced veteran who's lost his game and his contributing to dressing room division is a great deal", which it was; the next (or, ideally, prior) step should be to count his NHL defensemen and notice that he really needs to go acquire some. That's what he's missing. It doesn't make the Staios trade bad.
I'll give you Brodziak, though.
Sorry that was me.
ReplyDeleteBut exactly my issue is if we're sellers we need to sell. Surely GM's in bad spots will find the pass currently given the Mismanagement we appear to be suffering under getting a pass as an enviable position.
I don't think the race for last place is likely going to be as easy next year. More teams seem to be initiating operation Diminished Hope. I don't mind pushing our curve back a year or two, properly structuring a team that can feast on the bevy of rebuilding through draft teams likely to be the norm in the next few years.
@ anonymous
ReplyDeleteWhile I don't agree with your Weiss love I do agree that now is a good time to put together a big package to a desperate team with something big to offer. Only untouchables in my book: Hall, Ebs, Pajaarvi,then guys that would not get fair value for what we've all seen they can bring, say Peckham Petry Penner Lander Hamilton etc. Anyone else can go for a guy that's gonna be better in 2-3 years. Oilers holding ALOT of cards this month. It's been awhile.
"Steve": You think Vandermeer is better than Staios? I'm not so sure. Plus I'd rather have a veteran who at least knew how to play ag one time tutoring a kid.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: I don't think your ideas are reasonable for the Kings. Arguably too much turnover on their roster for a team just looking to add while gutting their prospects at the same time? It's too much and too complicated for a team with their shit together.
L.T, RQ,
ReplyDeleteI think you can leave 13 with 4 and 14, so go with:
27-89-83
4-13-14
91-10-23
85-Flotsam-Jestsam
Give the top 3 lines near equal ice time and play 4 twice a period and have them kill penalties.
I've read (C&B I think) that 91 has had most of his SEL success ot RW and 23 has played his whole career at LW.
Why does Renney run them opposite?
Lack of info? Stubbornness?
I tossed Smyth's name out because I think he brings nothing that this team needs except for the fans' forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteHis return would provide nothing to help the rebuild. He's older, more expensive, less capable and less valuable in a trade than Hemsky. That's why I can foresee it happening.
'No' to Smyth or Schenn as the centerpieces. Not enough.
Vandermeer sucks and is overpaid, but the goal was to get rid of POS' overpay. I'd say pretty even deal, or at least not sucky. Vandermeer's underlying numbers looked better than he does by eye, at least when I looked 20 games ago.
ReplyDeleteThe Staios deal was excellent, really. A 3rd rounder is a nice pick and Staios had a lot of crappy overpay left.
The other good thing about the Whitney deal is that even though Whitney < Vis., Whitney is a pretty solid underpay long term. I think the cap hits make that a win for Tambellini.
Trading for POS was a good idea at the time; most in the know were okay with it. Hindsight is 20/20... Wasting a 2nd on KotaLickmyBalls and duffing Brodziak were stupid.
All in all, Tambellini has made pretty safe deals. His problem is that he's never done the right thing in free agency to balance out the lineup. IMO, it's not his ability to make good trades that makes him a shitty GM, he just has no idea what he needs to add to the lineup. So we don't add anything to replace Souray's ES time and PK'ing. We don't add 4th liners to replace Brodziak. We run with too many rookies. We keep thinking Khabi is excellent. On and on.
It's like Tambellini is hockey-blind.
LA can't afford to keep all it's prospect depth and really fully take advantage of the players now in the start pushing window of their bell curve.
ReplyDeleteThey are decently structured but without some shifting of potential into certainty they just don't have the horses on wings to realistically compete in the deep end.
We have the unique ability to clear that up with cap friendly contracts the next two seasons. I find it hard not to see the upside for both parties hear.
Player "stats" are cited. Why not GM's?
ReplyDeleteLombardi:
American, University of New Haven, then Tulane U.-Law Degree-Honours-Labour Law, Player Agent under Art Kaminsky, Assistant GM under Jack Ferreira, then GM of San Jose and 6 consecutive years of improved final standings, then a few years at Philly as a scout, then GM at LA.
Lowe:
Canadian (generally lesser business acumen than Americans), High School in Quebec (generally not as good a formal education as 2 university degrees), hockey player for ~19 years in NHL, assistant coach under Ron Low for 1 year, some tutelage under Sather, then GM/President of Oilers where he led "a once proud franchise into the sewer".
Tambellini:
High school in Trail and Lethbridge, NHL hockey player for ~10 years, then Director of Media and Public Relations for Canucks for ~10 years, then Ass. GM for ~ 3 months, then Oiler puppet GM.
Who would you rather have negotiating for you?
--Lebowski (the Dude-not the Big)
@Deano
ReplyDeleteClearly we disagree about the potential of Schenn. Luckily Tambo can ask MBS for his opinion there so trading for a question mark becomes alot less murky. Bogosian would be another guy I'd go hard after.
Matthew Barry is a straight-up homer and he doesn't understand the concept of depreciation.
ReplyDeleteThe kind of guy who would try to sell you a car he bought off the Bargain Finder, fixed and repaired at the original cost + bells and whistles.
fpv: Lebowski's stating fact - what are you so pissed about? Take a fukken pill.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why Lombardi would be looking for. RWer though. Wouldn't he be more interested in Penner?
ReplyDelete@FlamingPavelBure:
ReplyDeleteUsually I would disagree with you but there are enough old-school types in management to make this a wee-bit of a possibility.
*Agree with you
ReplyDeleteBadseed: Yes black people tend to steal more therefore you should not hire one as your equipment manager.
ReplyDeleteDurp.
@FPB:
ReplyDeleteI think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think he means like the stereotype that Swedes can't play tough hockey.
LT: Very well said sir. I fully agree, if Hemsky is moved, it sure as hell better be worth it.
ReplyDeleteGreat show yesterday on Team 1260 BTW. I will be downloading the podcast every week as I will be on vacation and far from anything hockey for a couple weeks.
Its quite obvious you have considerable experience in the Radio industry. I suspect (and hope) this was the first of many more to come!
Go Oilers! (I mean, loose Oilers loose! LOL)
Raventalon: Yeah but we all know what it means.
ReplyDeleteAnyway I don't think it'S very hard disprooving that, seeing which econonmy's is crumbling.
"Steve": You think Vandermeer is better than Staios?
ReplyDeleteNo. If we'd given up a third rounder and Aaron Johnson for Vandermeer, that would have been a bad deal. Conversely, if we'd accepted Patrick O'Sullivan with $2.8 million on the last year of his contract in exchange for Staios, that would have been a bad deal. But getting Vandermeer for O'Sullivan was a good deal, as was getting Johnson and a third for Staios.
That the trades did not add up to making the team better (because Tambellini doesn't know how to count to six) doesn't change the fact that, individually, they're pretty good.
And yes, Lebwoski's implication that we should choose an American GM because they're better at business is palpably idiotic. Especially since everyone knows that all Canadians know more about hockey than all Americans.
ReplyDeletefpb: Not sure what you're getting at but I'd like to think that I'd like an educated guy with some experience on my side rather than a guy who has nothing much more than ex-pro hockey player on his resume. I know this, I'd rather have Lombardi here than the twins we have any day.
ReplyDeletefpb: Not sure what you're getting at but I'd like to think that I'd like an educated guy with some experience on my side rather than a guy who has nothing much more than ex-pro hockey player on his resume.
ReplyDeleteComparing GMs' backgrounds is perfectly legitimate. Suggesting that one reason that Lombardi's a better GM than Tambellini is that Americans are better at business than Canadians is idiotic.
My speculation is that Hemsky to LA is part of a three-way where Hemsky goes to the Rangers, Gaborik to LA, and LA players/prospects/and/or/picks go to Edmonton.
ReplyDeleteYeah LT,
ReplyDeleteThe show was fantastic. Most interesting Oilers radio show I've ever listened to.
Short was awesome. I hope some of his quotes from your show wind up in the paper.
I suspect 2 hours is a tough gig to fill with one on one interviews. On the other hand listener "call-ins" often don't result in in-depth, interesting conversations.
I don't know jack about radio, and don't mean to sound presumptuous, but I recommend you do some "panel shows" in the second hour. Maybe have Jonathon, Coach, Gregor (for the MSM POV) and you discuss different relatively controversial topics, say a certain player. Or have Tyler, Gabe, Bruce or Vic, and you discuss and explain different stats and objections to them.
But am excited to hear next week!
Gagner absolutely pounded the Russian kids in his last year of junior in that baby SuperSeries. His 'potential' was through the roof.
ReplyDeleteAs we have seen with Sam, dominating grown men playing to feed their babies is different.
Hemsky is real now. Gotta get a lot more potential than Schenn.
I haven't heard the show yet, LT, but I echo Kris's comment about call-ins. Please don't go that route. If you want listener interaction, e-mails and blog comments let you filter out the moronic, uninteresting stuff that comes to dominate most call-in shows.
ReplyDeleteIn this trade climate he should get a buck ten.
ReplyDeleteYes, but we're not American. We're Pakleds. We're not smart.
ReplyDelete@Deano
ReplyDeleteOur opinions on Schenn are what they are but I'd eat my hat if Schenn doesn't turn out better than Gagner. Seguin isn't available but he's the only one I can think of that a)hasn't proven it in the big league but b)is still relatively risk-free.
In Stu I trust, hope I'm not overestimating how much Tambo relies on him when pondering trades for futures.
Really this was Lebowski's only mistake:
ReplyDeleteCanadian (generally lesser business acumen than Americans)
Other than that, the rest of his post was useful and shows a stark contrast between Lombardi's pre-NHL resume and those of his Oiler counterparts.
Going the next step and comparing NHL resumes only gets worse.
CSimpson18 - you eating your hat has no value to this rebuild.
ReplyDeleteThe initial buzz around Gagner and his shootout nonsense was very Eberle-like.
Schenn is currently in the same position.
Then time passes and the truth is revealed.
Hickey is a better Chorney.
ReplyDeleteI laughed when I read that.
Wooo-Hooo, Lets get that Hickey kid!
Many years ago an indie band out of Calgary put out an EP with a song titled
"The Need to Laugh in Uncertain Times"
I've spent over a year in training courses with US educated engineers. Skewered sample but generally I'd say your average educated Canadian in a similar discipline is worth about a $1.10 their US counterparts.
ReplyDeleteTheir primary school system is so poor it honestly impacts their higher levels.
Having lived about 3 of the last 6 years (for all intensive purposes) in the South I might agree with the business thing...If it was changed to:
Americans are better at screwing over their counterparts in general. Blood thirsty, yes. Better entirely debateable.
The real difference between Harvard and Yale (from what I can tell) is that this is where rich folks send their kids to pay for the research performed by international accademics that are on staff. The benefit is a lot of not overly intelligent rich kids get to say they went there and are allowed privelleged access to the upper echeolon of opportunities.
That's my 5 cents.
"Steve" I don't find your argument very compelling. I don't think you can look at hockey trades with no context whatsoever. It's a major part of the motivation behind a deal.
ReplyDeleteIf you give team building zero consideration, then Tambo could trade every single dman for a forward or draft pick higher than each dman's perceived value and call him good at making trades.
I would argue that trying to make your team better is a handicap for all GMs that makes getting full or superior value in return more difficult. If Tambo ignores this requirement, then it's obviously much easier to get back perceived value. Of course, perceived value that doesn't ultimately win you hockey games is worth exactly nothing.
The line that should be together if we want to move 89 around is 91-85-23. All three have chemistry and are good enough to create some offence. Play them in select situations.
ReplyDeleteIf you give team building zero consideration...
ReplyDeleteI'm not giving team building zero consideration. I'm saying that Tambellini is a lousy GM in large part because he's terrible at team building. But none of this changes a third rounder and Aaron Johnson being bloody good value for Steve Staios.
Skewered sample but generally I'd say your average educated Canadian in a similar discipline is worth about a $1.10 their US counterparts.
ReplyDeleteThis might be true. However, we're comparing uneducated Canadians to educated Americans here with these hockey GMs. That's a huge difference.
I dunno, 25$ for a new Oilers hat has to help the team somehow doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteThe truth will be revealed, you're right. I'm not going to argue the potential of B Schenn, it's pointless. I guess I just can't think of any prospect with less risk that we might pursue who would fit so perfectly, contractually and skill-set-wise (that's a mouthful) than B Schenn.
We can't be paralyzed by risk or we'll never turn a declining asset into an appreciating one. We can only let smart people who've done their homework make the final call.
I will not argue the merit of the statement:
ReplyDeleteLombardi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Dithers
For a variety of reasons.
just the whole business point based on nationality doesn't pass the smell test.
Maudite said....
ReplyDeleteHaving lived about 3 of the last 6 years (for all intensive purposes) in the South I might agree with the business thing...
Pretty tough to criticize another country's educational system while using the phrase "intensive purposes".
But I agree, that was an unfortunate statement by The Dude.
RQ
ReplyDeleteThose trades last summer had nothing to do with being better.
The goal was, and remains, to finish in the lottery.
The trades were about moving bodies, getting tougher, changing the culture; just kicking up dust so that the 3 Amigos could emerge from it to lead us all to a better place.
@RiversQ-
ReplyDeleteIvy league schools do not have a monopoly on relevant education. Not even sure what nationality has to do with it.
Now all we need are a some 'smart people who've done their homework'.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we can trade Hemsky for them.
I would trade
ReplyDeleteHemsky
2nd round pick
Lowe and Dithers
for
Lombardi
In a heartbeat.
Lebowski
ReplyDeletePretty convincing argument comparing the background and CV of Lombardi against that of Lowe and Tambellini.
Pretty idiotic to slam Canadian business acumen when in 2008 the US business acumen very nearly destroyed the world financial system.Or maybe maybe it was Canadian banks that were packaging and selling absolute crap commercial paper to the world. Nope that was the US financial firms
Altho if you were a student in Canada with ZERO income it would be hard for you to qualify for financing to purchase 3 residential properties. Happened alot in the US in 2003-2007 but thats just real smart USA type business acumen
Plus....... how many Stanley Cups did Lombardi win as a player??? Course if that was the sole criteria why the HELL don't we hire Henri Richard as our President and GM?
Pretty tough to criticize another country's educational system while using the phrase "intensive purposes".
ReplyDeleteWell, one's purposes could be intensive, I suppose - for example, to heighten people's emotions. The phrase is perfectly cromulent, really, even if it's probably not the one Maudite was looking for.
Just to separate the apples from the oranges... Penner and Hemsky are still appreciating assets... the decline for wingers doesn't start until about 30-32, by my reckoning. The time when their value is highest is in the middle of their next contract (IMO) and lasts as long as their percieved production is stil there.
ReplyDeleteVrbata with first blood for the desert dogs.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to point out that a degree is not necessarily an indication of either knowledge or cleverness. In general it might be but we are talking about individuals here, not large samples.
Hemsky is a declining asset for the Oilers if you consider:
ReplyDeletea)the likelihood that Oilers can't afford he and Penner when the elc's of HPE are over
b)his games left on his current contract are running out, lowering his trade value by the day
My comment had absolutely nothing to do with his talent level. I would hate to see him walk for nothing.
Spoiler:
ReplyDeleteLol
I've long ago accepted my deficiencies with the english language. Luckily I was intelligent enough to recognize them and go into a career based almost solely on math and BS. There are several reasons I'm in charge of a well-site instead of sitting down town Calgary. Two of those is that I make more cash and my written language skills are generally above par.
We've got a lot of pissing contests today. Should be fun.
ReplyDeleteMartindale with a goal today, that's 31. Toffoli has 45. Maybe he should be in the conversation too.
Thinking about the team today I thought about the definition of insanity. "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
ReplyDeleteIf we go into next year with Cogs, Gagner and Fraser taking faceoffs, we're hosed.
If we allow Foster to torture us on defense for the second year of his contract, we're hosed.
If we play Khabiboulin in net for two more excruciating years, we're hosed.
Even with the continued development of Hall, MPS, Eberle, Omark, without some trades, signings, buyouts, waives, deals, we are doomed to a season of insanity.
LT, I think any discussion with LA should include those two names.
ReplyDeleteMaudite, lol, I hear you. I took Engineering 1st year English. It was hilarious. You write better than most.
And I've just taken the CHI PHO game on NHL channel for a live matchup so what do I know?
@LT
ReplyDeleteI think you were implying Toffoli to the Oil, which would obviously be cool. It works both ways though, Lombardi might want Martindale and cough something good up for him. I for one am concerned that Prince/Toffoli are driving the bus.
Again, in Stu i trust.
Thought everyone here would love this little bit:
ReplyDelete"Teubert, Schenn and Moller no longer on Kings prospects page..."
LOL. Let the fun begin.
And before we get too excited it's back on the page, and this came from Eklund, so of course made it out to be Schenn to the Leafs. Thouught it would be fun. Would the above players be enough for Hemsky and say Jones?
Spoiler:
ReplyDeleteEven funnier is that by the rigid rules, I should have failed that.
Too many punctuation and spelling errors every essay (had a lot of drinking to do that interfered with the whole proof reading concept)Professor refused to do it based on the fact that once he got by glaring issues, he said the content and insight were the best he'd ever seen in 4 years teaching that course.
In conclusion:
ReplyDeleteI write english way dumber than I speak it.
Dithers is best selling big or pissing off. This year the fence sitting resulted in gains. By the time Rekhab's deal comes off the books we should be firing on all cylinders...I doubt we will be.
I could not imagine teaching that course.
ReplyDelete@DBO
ReplyDeleteThat didn't come from Eklund. A Kings HFer discovered their absence at 4am eastern,then a mod claims to have texted a Kings website IT guy. 45 minutes later they were back on there. Very strange indeed, it's hard to imagine a reason for their disappearance then reappearance in short order.
Eklund obviously learns alot on HF trade forums.
Schenn AND Teubert for Hemsky is enough potential for me.
ReplyDeleteIn a results oriented business, some of the evaluation filters out there stagger the imagination. The same people who get hot and bothered about a SSS prospect (small sample size) have the magic ability to discard G7 SCF from Lowe's pedigree as an outlying data point.
ReplyDeleteIn a results oriented business, perseverating on a good month in the A while discounting G7 SCF is the ultimate tilted landscape. G7 SCF is the kind of failure most GMs in this league aspire to. Lowe built that team 100% and nearly stabbed it in the back by not upgrading the goalie soon enough to matter.
Can't blame Lowe for Pronger failing to honour his contract. As Lowe once said, "I knew he was unhappy mid-season, but usually winning sorts these things out". Winning wasn't enough. Not even a c-hair away from nirvana. Who knew?
Then Tambi comes along and he's *everything* Lowe wasn't: good at building from the bottom up, able to resist rash decisions, good at buttoning up the cake hole, and he gets nicknamed Mr Dithers, which is apt, but less of an insult than most people think.
At the Batman level, this team is still fixing the EIG legacy: old arena, creaky foundation, poor reputation as a player destination.
I have to say to Rivers that Tambi is not blind to team need. His inactivity is because he thinks this is the best course of action. And what's the rush? It's hard to screw up finishing 30'th when you've got SMB in the fold. Well, you could screw it up by addressing team need in the off season.
They brought up the three elite rookies who aren't going to bleed confidence over a little bit of losing. In fact, a little bit of losing is essential to most cup runs. The team that suffered the devastating knock-out in a recent season always seems to dig a little deeper. Why burn a play-off run to send the message that losing sucks?
Eberle is cruising along at 0.69 ppg on the league's 30'th place team. You wonder how does he get out of bed in the morning. He arrives at the rink, looks around the dressing room, and surmises, "the problem is me, I'm not getting it done, I need to change everything". Yeah, right.
Whitney was important because it allowed the rookies to experience what it's like when the D and the O mesh together.
The Oilers like to play the speed game. In a league where most opponents are well coached in the neutral zone, the outlet pass is the keystone to making this work.
You know what really eats away at your talented forwards? Coach steps into the room "we have no outlet pass so we can't exploit our speed on the rush, so instead we'll play 82 games this season of dump & chase against 6'4" defensive studs and get booed out of our own arena ten times this season for laziness when you're so battered that you can't skate a proper stride".
Ever notice how puck possession teams have less trouble with coming out flat? That's because they're not flat. Flat out of gas. We pretend that it's not possible for an athlete to give too much. If you believe that, baseball or curling or the Tour de Syringe is the sport for you.
Spoiler:
ReplyDelete"I couldn't imagine teaching that course."
Just keep piling the insults on eh!
(shakes fist futilely in the air)
The phrase is perfectly cromulent, really, even if it's probably not the one Maudite was looking for.
ReplyDeleteI see what you did there and I conquer.
I have a suspicion that DeadManWaking is Steve Tambellini. Could somebody comb through his public statements and see if he's ever said "perseverating"?
ReplyDelete(Logorrhea continued)
ReplyDeleteNext season, what do we have? Three rookies and five sophomores? Tambi must be losing sleep something fierce to plug holes and sail into the playoffs.
The only thing that plugging holes now accomplishes is raising fan expectations prematurely. Just what the doctor ordered to sabotage sophomore confidence streaks.
If D-men develop by sundial, I don't get how it is we're going to let another team pay that price, then pluck the asset just when we need it, without mortgaging the future. Turn nickles into dollars mowing the lawn year after year, then splurge on a peep show. Not a smart plan.
If we're going to develop a first line D prospect in house, that ship sails next season, if it hasn't sailed already.
Or maybe the plan is to do nothing, hold the course (which is fine), and then hand the dice back to Lowe for the three critical signings for a hard charge in the off season. He's done it once before, maybe he can do it again.
OK, so some plans are better than others. I'd like to sea at least one sea monster erased from the navigation charts for defensive roster for next season. If moving Hemsky doesn't facilitate this, what's the point of churning the butter?
simpson: right. curious though. I would take those players. moller is small, but fits our new swedish rebuild. He was the captain of their world junior team in 2009, add lander and Schenn and suddenly we have a bunch of world junior captains (not that that means much, Chorney was the American captain I believe)
ReplyDelete@ Deadman
ReplyDeleteRE: In a results oriented business
When the rules of the game adapt and your management proves incapable of managing these adjustments, he is replaced, regardless of past successes.
When the new management comes and appears to continue trending the same course as the disposed one, you get nervous. Then he utilizes what capital leverage you have, after assessing the situation, in bad bets, while publicly declaring that he is confident that these expenditures will lead to success.
Following that by coming back a few short months later and telling you that the business needs to be completely rebuilt from the floor up, he should be fired as well.
Excuses does not include an ass but assessment literally, and in this case, figuratively does.
I don't want Hemsky to go, and I don't even like Hemsky.
ReplyDeleteLooks like Oilers will trade away Hemsky/Penner, then start yapping about how the team is in dire need of veterans.
Yes, this "team" loves to be fucked up - as in permanently.
@deadmanwalking
ReplyDeleteEIG's legacy is an old arena? They barely stayed afloat, in what world were they going to address the arena issue?
@dbo
Yes I like those 3 assets, Schenn in particular and Teubert has the Eberle connection. I don't think they'd be on the table for just Hemsky though, mainly due to contract term.
Maudite, sorry about that, please add present company excepted.
ReplyDeletewhy do guys say Schenn looks like a #2 Centre?????? What part of his history leads u to Believe this? he is better then gagner right now! sorry.. Im from Brandon, where he recently played for the past 3 years! he isnt tiny like gagner. he is an immediate improvement over ganer and well if u get Schenn and a D prospect like Voynov or Forbort! WOW! so u get a legit # 2 Centre according to U! who could end up a 80 pt Centre with Eberle and Hall and u get a solid D prospect for Hemsky!
ReplyDeletetake this trade and run!!!!!
PLEASE
Anon: Hahahha.
ReplyDeleteW/
Hamilton Martindale Toffoli would make a nice line next year in the A.
ReplyDeleteBut if he really is Mr. Dithers, do we need to worry about 83 or 27 moving?
IF U can get Weiss for Gagner
ReplyDeleteDO it!!!!!
we would be laughing if we could pull this off
@ Deadman cont.
ReplyDeleteWe were inches away from having Danny Heatley on the books into eternity. THAT WAS LAST YEAR!!!
Seriously think about that:
Smid and Cogs surely would get you a couple draft picks, worst case.
Penner > Heatley (when you factor in the cost difference of these two, contract length, current deadline trade value and the need for players that can defensively carry a bit of water).
The year previous, he signed Rekhab which unpaid observers were immediately pointing how poor this decision was for correct reasons.
I will not even get into Lowe's self destruction highlights.
You're probably not by chance mid-twentieth century French, but the line you're trying to defend has got some glaring weaknesses.
Anon: If you can spell ''you'' correctly then:
ReplyDeleteDOOOOOOO ITTTTTT
Weiss for Gagner? That's more of a lateral move than you seem to realize. Weiss is 6 years older. Similar size and play style. His best season before 25 was 48 points. Gagner had more than that at 19. Gags is cheaper. Why trade a guy just for the sake of it, Weiss has the edge now but not for long.
ReplyDeleteIf Gagner goes it's for an upgrade in 2-3 years. Weiss isn't it.
Finally someone tells Campbell to go F'ck himself (66)
ReplyDeleteCSimpson18 said...
ReplyDelete@RiversQ-
Ivy league schools do not have a monopoly on relevant education. Not even sure what nationality has to do with it.
Huh? I have no idea why you're telling me this.
flamingpavelbure said...
ReplyDeleteFinally someone tells Campbell to go F'ck himself (66)
Lemieux back to what he does best. Ok, second best. He was a better hockey player than he is a whiner.
He should have told Campbell to shove it when his own no-talent assclown Matt Cooke ruined Marc Savard's career. He'd deserve some respect for that.
RiversQ: Agreed, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
ReplyDelete@RQ
ReplyDeleteMaybe my point was unclear. You said:
"This might be true. However, we're comparing uneducated Canadians to educated Americans here with these hockey GMs. That's a huge difference."
I was merely implying that just because someone has a degree, and one from a good US school, doesn't automatically qualify them as a better gm than an uneducated Canadian with 30 years experience in all facets of the game. Hence the "relevant" in my comment.
And if anyone cares, Strome now leads the scoring in the OHL. Continuing on his January pace, he's scoring over two points a game. 11/5 in February.
ReplyDeleteDean Man Waking = John MacKinnon?
ReplyDeleteTo summarize:
Lowe was a good GM because he got the Oilers to G7 of the SCF.
Tambellini is a good GM because he's very patiently cleaning up Lowe's post SCF mess.
fpb:
ReplyDeleteYou are only 17. Please recognize a personal opinion when you see it. I admit it was not politically correct to say USA people are more astute in business than Canadians.
I admit the error of my ways. Canadians are every bit the equal of Americans when it comes to running a business.
My question remains. Who would you rather have negotiating for you, Lombardi or Tambellini/Lowe? Or for that matter running "Le rouge, blanc et bleu"?
Some food for thought:
-How well is RONA doing vs. The Orange Borg?
-What is Pierre Lortie doing now after running Provigo into the ground?
Lebowski (the Dude, not the fat one)
-What are the Canadian counterparts to Walmart
Oops, I meant to delete the last line re Walmart.
ReplyDeleteI admit it was not politically correct to say USA people are more astute in business than Canadians.
ReplyDeleteThe issue isn't that it wasn't politically correct. The issue is that it was stupid.
(And I'm very elderly, so none of this "you're only 17" stuff with me.)
I liked Mario's whining more when it was in concert with Brett Hull and concerning hooking and holding.
ReplyDeleteBut right now it rings a little bit false considering it was one his players - along with Mike Richards and his shot on Booth - that spurred the league's "action" on headshots though I should give the league a little bit more credit in light of the suspension of Volchenkov.
Anyway, the same goes for Mario as it ever did: much easier to like him when he keeps his mouth shut.
So, the move of 27 or 83 will be Lowe's third shot at making a franchise-impacting move without shitting the bed. He's already fucked up the Pronger and Smyth deals so who who thinks he's Not going down swinging?
Note: I'm not even gonna get into an argument of who's the real GM because the fact that's another edition of Oil Change tonight reminds of the scene from the draft episode where Lowe and Tambo were in the backseat of the mini-van and Tambo had that sad maniacal grin on his face as he cow-towed to all of Lowe's comments.
And the idea that these guys would even be On the market in the first place - unless it's because they won't sign here - is the biggest worry. It shows that the Oilers aren't yet prepared to let talented vets mingle with the kids and that they are fine with wasting the ELCs of the latest batch of kids plus putting new betting money on more birds in the bush.
That's fucking depressing no matter how you spin it.
@CSimpson18
ReplyDeleteRegardless, Lowe and Tambo have proven definitively that they are bad at this gig. Correlation does not equal causation, but I'd much rather have Lombardi than Prestige Worldwide.
RQ
ReplyDeleteNo argument re: Tambo and Lowe. Generalizations irk me, especially ones that slag people like me.
Boats n hoes.
If I got into a fender-bender in Quebec, would Lowe or Lombardi be better equipped to deal with the ensuing problem?
ReplyDeleteGogliano, I don't know but if Lowe shows up, shoot the gas tank.
ReplyDelete-How well is RONA doing vs. The Orange Borg?
ReplyDelete*shakes head*
Kevin Lowe said we don't have any reason to watch the Oilers for the next 4-6 years.
ReplyDelete"It's alright. It's okay. There's something to live for. Jessuuusss told me so."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSzHvRVE5uM
If I got into a fender-bender in Quebec, would Lowe or Lombardi be better equipped to deal with the ensuing problem?
ReplyDeleteDepends: how's the stereo?
If a President of Hockey Operations flipped pancakes with nobody there to hear him, would he still ramble on about his Stanley Cups?
ReplyDeleteUntil the Oilers' next Stanley Cup is more important to the front office than the last one, over 2 decades ago, we are doomed.
For a stats driven site people sure sound misinformed about Brayden Schenn.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't suddenly appear on the radar at the WJCs he's been great since the day he came to the WHL.
Hell there was buzz around him in Bantam.
Ryan Johansen draft season isn't close to Schenn's.
Everyone was orgasming over Eberle's age 19 season in the dub and had the Kings sent Schenn down to start the year he would have blown Eberle's year out of the water.
And River please tell me you were trolling when you said the Staios trade was bad because he has "intangibles"
How many Presidents of Hockey Operations does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
ReplyDeleteHow many Presidents of Hockey Operations does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
ReplyDeleteNone. The entire operation just tells people to enjoy sitting in the dark.
Steve Smith is the best thing about this blog. That stereo line was classic.
ReplyDeleteDeadmanwaking:
ReplyDeleteNice post(s).
Erik Cole just ripped the heart from the Atlanta Thrashers. 1:19 to go he puts the Hurricanes ahead 3-2.
ReplyDeleteLordy. Craig Ramsay is a good coach but Atlanta's fading a little now. Too bad, it was a great story early.
Arbitrarily and to skew the math somewhat to illustrate a point, let's start from 1995.
ReplyDeleteA quick look indicates that from 1995 to 2010, all 15 Stanley Cup winners have been U.S. based and presumably U.S. owned. Of the losing finalists, 12 have been U.S. based and again presumably U.S. owned.
0 Canadian winning teams and 3 Canadian losing finalists. (Flames and Oilers were oh so close. Senators... not so much.)
So what is the explanation? Are U.S. owned teams better because the owners are better in business? Do they pick better GMs? Maybe.
Or is it because the winning owners have had more money to work with? Certainly from 1995 to 2005, comparing say Detroit to Edmonton/Calgary/Ottawa. Certainly not, comparing say Colorado to Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver. Since the new CBA the field is more level. 2 Canadian finalists since 2005.
Or perhaps another factor is that when given a choice, all other things being equal, the players would rather toil for their millions in cities and climates more conducive to their new life style, like New York, L.A., Anaheim, and San Jose.
Perhaps in some cases it's the women who decide. See Mr. Underwood for the latest example.
As of now, 3 Canadian teams are in the bottom 5.
Sure anyone with any acumen can blow any number of holes in the above. But the questions remain.
For the Oilers to get much better, it is my suggestion that Katz had better get some better people around him. Out with Lowe. Out with the PR/Media backgroun guy, Tambellini. What was Katz thinking?
Schenn and Forbort for hemsky? Go propose that to the kings board and watch them laugh in your face. Schenn is very highly touted prospect. (ranked 7th on hockey futures.) Putting up better numbers in the WHL then Eberle. Forbort is projects to be a #1 D in the Nhl.
ReplyDeleteI would do that deal in a heartbeat but I dont think the Kings do it. You are asking for 2 of their top 3 prospects.
Would you trade PRV and Eberle for Kopitar?
LT:
ReplyDeleteTambo just needs to be nothing if not persistent.
Then he can collect things. Things to make us go.
Lebowski: Streaking on the stereotype.
ReplyDelete''Canadian (generally lesser business acumen than Americans)''
If you want people to recognize ''personal opinion'' you have to give hints, like IMO.
Please stop getting a sense entitlement because you're older. I could say nasty things about it but LT will probably delete it.
Bob Gainey was an excellent GM and given the age he entered the NHL I suspect he doesn't have a university degree. He still made two good runs with both MIN/DAL and MTL.
Stupid opinions are not indemnified against criticism by virtue of being opinions. IMO.
ReplyDeleteLebowski:
ReplyDeleteCanadian Teams 6
American Teams 24
If you want to apply the sillyness, do it on all the timeline.
Steve Smith: I humbly defer to your wisdom, your years, and your comedic talent. It was an extremely stupid thing to say!
ReplyDeleteI now take it back and amend it with: "Canadians are infinitely superior to Americans in all things, especially when it comes to the business of winning at hockey, Canada's heritage, passion, and reason for being."
Are we good?
Lebowski: Didn't hear that, say it again?
ReplyDeleteHorcoff to miss tonight's game, but MacIntyre draws in. Whew. THAT was close.
ReplyDeleteAre we good?
ReplyDeleteWell, I liked the first paragraph.
LT: I heard he upped his radio and brang it in the locker room.
ReplyDeleteHonest to Jesus this was unsolicited.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm watching Oil Change with the ladyfriend and it's the last segment which shows all of Barnes, Brownlee and Stauffer and they are praising Renney to high heaven etc etx.
LLF: "Dennis, haven't the Oilers been bad for years?"
Me: yep
LLF: - turns attention back to the radio crew - what a bunch of suckholes on that radio show"
in the last 30 hours we've been subjected to both Lowe and Laforge on HNIC and now the latest edition of Oil Change.
ReplyDeleteRepeated reminders of just how goddamn hateful this organization has become.
On a funny note, Drew Stafford has 4 hat tricks this season alone.
ReplyDeleteBar Qu - What's worse is that after being told, people do just sit in the dark.
ReplyDeleteWell thats effin typical.
ReplyDeletehey boopronger:
ReplyDeletedarn tootin right!! tell me about it! for all those Schenn haters on here. if the oilers even had a whiff of that trade! tambo would be a complete idiot to turn that down! are there that many fools on here that wouldnt take Schenn and Forbort or Voynov for Hemsky!
that trade gives us 2 former 1st round picks that address our need.
I HEART HEMSKY but that would be an amazing return if L.A were desperate. We would have a whole new outlook come june draft if we pulled that trade off.
im sure we could pull it off but thered be a few players heading outta EDM with Hemmer!
Awesome first shift
ReplyDeleteNice defense cogs.
Remind me why I watch this team?
So 2nd game now, but Penner at centre. Could he be the missing big two way centre we've talked about? He's played there in college. He's decent at faceoffs (but with his size and more draws should improve). he lacks ideal speed, but he has enough to play up and down. He is strong on the puck, and he wins battles on the boards and down low, so in both zones he could be successful. I like the idea of letting him run there for a good bit of games to see what he can do.
ReplyDeleteSome good shift since the first one.
ReplyDeletePenner at center to me negates his board work. I doubt we would be seeing him stretching his coverage from behind one net to the other.
Why in the fuck is it open season on cross-checking Oiler players but they call that chicken-shit hold on Petry? What a fucking joke this reffing is
ReplyDeletefpv:
ReplyDeleteMy point is that for the past 15 years U.S. owned teams are doing much better than Canadian owned teams, proportionately speaking.
3 Canadian teams are in the bottom 5 as we type.
Of course one does not require a university degree or two to be a successful NHL GM. But one still requires a modicum of smarts. Lowe is an emotion driven dolt compared to Gainey (in my opinion- lest I offend). Gainey is a thinker and a planner. He's a solid and stable hockey man. Lowe , not so much.
Tangentially, how is my favourite (what is the sarcasm symbol anyway?) former GM of our other professional sports team doing back in La Belle Provence?
You would be doing Edmonton an immeasurable favour if you started a lobby for Mr. Lowe's return.
Hell, he may even return to the home of Les Remparts in the natural course if our fair city doesn't build a new arena cum entertainment centre.
"Schenn is a very highly touted prospect. (ranked 7th on hockey futures)."
ReplyDeleteJani fucking Rita was ranked 2nd by the same hockey futures.
K fine hunter you win. Schenn = rita
ReplyDeleteWatch Halls move there in slow mo. Flying top speed he puts the puck in the dmans feet then makes the most subtle little fake like he's going inside out. Dman freezes and Hall carries on past him. Halls best move in the NHL yet.
ReplyDeleteLebowski: Could say the opposite for the first 15 years so whaT?
ReplyDeleteSo if Quebec separates, will Lowe become a better businessman?
ReplyDeleteanyone got a working feed for the game?
ReplyDeleteI believe the only way Tambo will get 100 cents on the dollar in any trade is to make teams trying for a playoff run sweat (this will definitely be the case in trying to deal with ‘Stone Cold’ Lombardi.) That would mean that any trade will come later in the month and not now. I think the league perception is that this organization is still a laughing stock and that rep will not change until some serious hardball is played (on the ice and in the front office).
ReplyDeleteWith Hemsky and Penner both having a year left in their contracts, Tambo has complete control in moving these players. It’s not like the Oilers can get any worse and they do not have salaries to dump. What leverage would another team have in getting a bad deal out of Tambo? While I think the Oilers will not get a deal that works in their interest at this moment; any deal that is not 100 cents or better on the dollar, closer to the trade deadline would have to be considered a bad trade (Even if the ‘MB’ is given a couple of more bullets for draft day). I have to admit I am not opposed to taking on a salery dump from another team if it helps get a better trade and the contract is not long term.
Another thing that may work in Tambo’s favour is that there are a lot of teams that are potential buyers; the only teams at this moment I would consider true sellers are the Devils, Islanders, Oilers and Sens. This will really work in the Oilers favour if the number of teams in contention for a playoff spot is still high. Also, in comparison to the other bottom feeders, the Oilers have better assists/depth in the farm system they can deal from.
(an aside: is Murray trying to get himself fired prior to the season ending, with the Fisher trade with Nashville? I understand that Fisher’s wife is a country music star and lives in Nashville, but to give him away for virtually nothing? If I was a Sens fan I would be losing it.)
I like how Dennis doesn't even log in anymore and we all know it's him, even if he doesn't use his name in the comment. The vernacular gives it away.
ReplyDeleteSteve Smith---no, I don't think so, although Pavel might. I venture my answer would be different if M. Lowe had French blood in his veins or if Quebec joined those united states.
ReplyDeleteMy we are having some fun.
By the way are the Oilers winning?
SierraRacs is Hemingway.
ReplyDeleteOT - Neil Young wins his first Grammy for music - Best Rock Song. He must have something terminal.
ReplyDeleteHow come ST did not pick up Grabner on waivers at the beginning of the year? Oh wait...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSteve Smith: could he be worse?:)
ReplyDelete2 has to be one of the most unassumingly terrible D we've ever had. A guy like Cross was a lummox and you could easily spot that and poor old Scott Ferguson was so slow that you wondered how he lasted from game-to-game.
But on the surface it doesn't seem that 2's all that bad but when you watch him it just turns the stomach.
or makes you laugh.
at around the 15:30 mark the Oilers had big pressure in the Ducks zone and the puck comes back to the point and 2 just sweeps over it with the shot attempt.
Holy fuck did I ever laugh. I mean laugh like last night when I watched Stepbrothers again and Reilly's character called his child bully nemesis "Mr. Gardocki."
Also, Ryan Whitney was Christ.
OT - Neil Young wins his first Grammy for music
ReplyDeleteAnd the hell of it is he's probably put out literally a hundred better songs than that. Still, over-fucking-due.
http://tinyurl.com/4uxspr6
ReplyDeleteThat other link seemed to half-vanish into the ether.
MC: there's something dumb going on where when I post a comment it goes to a blogger page where I have to submit some kind of password.
ReplyDeleteThat was never the case before and fuck if I'm gonna bother with doing it.
so, yeah, everyone knows how I am anyway and if they don't well then too bad:)
So from now on I'm not the not-so-anonymous Anonymous:)
Neil Young winning his first Grammy tells you more about the Grammy's than it does about Neil Young.
ReplyDeleteI stopped watching when A Taste of Honey won best new artist.
3 or 4 years before Oilers will be competing for the Cup? or playoffs. I think that is too long in the Cap era, you better become good quickly or else you will have to give up players. 4 years from now if the prospects grow like they think they will, we won't be able to keep them.We are looking the 1st or second pick in the 2011 draft. Tricky
ReplyDeleteI wasn't watching - I caught it on a feed.
ReplyDeleteApparently the US authorities did not just shut the usual site down - they also took a huge steaming red white and blue dump on it.
ReplyDelete3 on 1 no shot. Would love to see "punishment" in terms of reduced ice time get handed out for things like no shot on an odd man rush, and not just defensive mistakes. You can't pass it into the net.
ReplyDelete"Lowetide said...
ReplyDeleteSierraRacs is Hemingway."
Thanks for the laugh and sorry for the essay. I don't post often but when I do I try to make it worth it. Especially with the powerhouses that comment here.