Sunday, June 6, 2010

Actual NHL Players















Number 11 is Mark Messier. Of all the factors that have turned the Oilers around in the last few weeks, none has been more important than Mark's decision to apply himself. The reckless abandon of the early months had now turned into a controlled fury on the ice, and in many games he has been the Oilers most exciting player.

He kills penalties and adds zest to the powerplay. Although he has been converted from centre to left wing on Matti (Hagman's) line (with Glenn Anderson), Sather still sends him out for crucial faceoffs. It is a favorite play for Sather to send him out with veteran center Stan Weir, then have Stan deliberately mix it up with the opposing center, get waved off and then hand the faceoff duties to the kid.

No one knows for sure what has turned Messier around, although it appears more than coincidence that he began his new dedicated approach at about the same time as his cousin (Donny Murdoch) was banished to the minors. So many of the other youngsters take their moods from him that there are those who believe he will one day be the captain of the Oilers.

Peter Gzowski, "The Game of Our Lives" McLelland and Stewart 1981.


By the end of the 1980-81 season (Gzowski's book--a must-own for the Oiler fan), Mark Messier was 20 years old and had played 199 games of regular season NHL hockey. He was a combined -32 and his point totals had risen from 11 to 33 to 63.
--


There are no Mark Messier's on the Edmonton Oilers and frankly none on the draft horizon either. The Messier's of the world don't come along everyday, and the early 1980's Oilers had Gretzky too, so the comparisons end quickly when discussing the Boys on the Bus.

Sam Gagner is 20 years old and has played 223 NHL games (Messier played a WHA season in that group of 199 games, but I'm not sure the Oilers have played 246 NHL games in the last three seasons so we'll call it a wash). He is a combined -30 in his three seasons and his point totals are 49, 41, 41.

Despite the downward trend in offensive production, Gagner is improving and appears ready to take on a larger role with this team in 2010-11. I quoted the Murdoch item from the Gzowski book because I think part of the process for the current young Oilers is/was flushing the "Weight-Guerin" group that had ownership of the team. The Craig MacTavish generals (Moreau, Staios, Pisani, Souray) are half gone with the rest on the way this summer (one imagines).

The Oilers don't have many actual NHL players. I'd rank Khabibulin, Gilbert, Whitney, Horcoff, Penner, Hemsky and we'll called Ladislav Smid "in the range" plus the player the Oilers get back for Souray. So, we're up to 8. We could hold an expansion draft tomorrow and get that many (although clearly not the same quality), so the next question is "how close are some of the kids?"
  • Sam Gagner: I think he is very close to being able to take on real responsibility; in fact, if you can promise Dustin Penner as his LW in 2010-11 I'll move 89's name over to the "actual NHL player" list right now.
  • Andrew Cogliano: I don't know what to say about him. I'm tempted to blame Quinn, because frankly the offense wasn't even the big concern this past season. Cogliano looked lost in every zone on the ice much of the time, and this shouldn't happen at age 22 after 2 years of college and a bunch of NHL games. He's no dummy and he shouldn't be playing like one. I'd be tempted to grab him a veteran winger this summer and do the identical thing MacT did with Pisani (for Stoll, Torres and others). There's an NHL player in there somewhere.
  • Gilbert Brule: You need to see this again, and then you need to see him play well without the puck. Brule has a scorer's touch and grit, but he's not going to help you win until he can play his position a little better. He could be a very good 2line RW behind Hemsky if he starts to do all those little things well, but desire might be an issue in that area (as it is with most of these kids. Donny Murdoch too).
  • Marc Pouliot: He needs to be more physical and stay healthy, but lordy there's a player here and I think he might be ready to help. He played in the dungeon (tough qual of comp) but his Corsi and plus minus were fine. I don't know that it will be here, but it is looking like he'll have an NHL career.

I don't rate any goalies or defenders in the range (Dubnyk had a nice run and Peckham has talent but they're not ready to make a difference and probably won't be this time next season). These are the young men I think might become actual NHL players in the next 12 months. It isn't a huge list and young hockey players never develop in a straight line. However, if those 2 of those 4 forwards can be added to Horcoff, Penner and Hemsky then there are 2 lines worth who can help (plus Hall/Seguin, MPS and others will begin the process and those are very promising talents).

There are good days ahead, but it is still about having more players who do the things that help you win than the other guy. And a coach who can develop young talent would help a lot.

42 comments:

  1. I saw the pic and immediately assumed the post would be called "Three Blind Mice".

    Leadership on this squad seems almost non-existent and someone is going to need to take some ownership of the team before they can truly move forward. I'd really love for Horcoff to push himself in this area because I think he has the most to teach of the veterans on the team. It just doesn't seem likely that this will happen is all. He's too busy working on his own game (which is okay). Leadership is hard to find so I hope the GM team has assessed this deficiency and means to address it sooner than later.

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  2. To me Sam Gagner was a better hockey player than Shawn Horcoff last year. I think he's ready to kick it up a notch and assume the role of N1 center.

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  3. "To me Sam Gagner was a better hockey player than Shawn Horcoff last year. "

    PPP/60
    Gagner 5.74
    Horcoff 2.80

    gfga60 differential
    Gagner -0.41
    Horcoff - 1.59

    Faceoff %

    Gagner 47.4
    Horcoff 46.4

    Cap hit:

    Horcoff 5.5
    Gagner 1.625

    It wasn't even close.

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  4. Great article LT, thanks for the read.. esp cus of the write up on the Moose.. My all-time Fav, #11..

    I've been a huge horcoff detractor (haha, im sure there is a joke along the lines of d'tractor - but i'll just leave it at that) at times (typically the contract, but also his play at times) but would very much like to see him find his stride (triple h line anyone!?) and solidify his role as team leader...

    Poo - had some nice games last year, but are you implying he is going to take the spot of 3c? or keep slugging it out on the fourth.. its waaaayyy to early to be talking about lines, but i just dont know where he fits (mps-poo-storts? weird line)

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  5. I am not really interested if the guys we add help us win hockey games - yet.

    We need a couple of Crash Davis's to take the wheel from Moreau.

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  6. hbomb:

    You can blame Horcoff's struggles on who he play with or who he played against but when you look at how bad his numbers were on the PP its clear that the problem was Horcoff himself.

    Horcoff not being able to win draws last year is like a field goal kicker that can't kick the ball.

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  7. I'm almost surprised Traktor didn't use salaries instead of cap hits in his Horcoff attack. Would have fit in his analysis using points, completely unrooted in reality.

    It's all right, the other day he tried to insinuate that Horcoff wasn't a real NHL player at all, using points-per-game. Today, he's just worse than Gagner, using points-per-60. Baby steps.

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  8. Also, Pronger went -5 today. No points too. The Horc logic that FPVEE and Traktor, along with the When the Games Really Matter factor, must imply that Pronger is the worst defenceman in the league.

    That -5 prorates to somewhere in the -300 range if you extended it to a full season. And the zero points prorate to... zero points.

    That Pronger, what a boat anchor!

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  9. "That Pronger, what a boat anchor!"

    At least Pronger can throw a hit. It has to be somewhat embarrassing for Horcoff being 6'2 200+ pounds and being outhit by Robert Nilsson.

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  10. Shawn Horcoff 09/10 35 hits
    Robert Nilsson 09/10 30 hits

    Not that the hit stat is meaningful or anything. Still, Traktor, if you're going to be wrong, you should try and be wrong the right way.

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  11. "The reckless abandon of the early months had now turned into a controlled fury on the ice, and in many games he has been the Oilers most exciting player."

    I know the comparisons have been made before but reading this made me think about T. Hall and his eventual maturity in the NHL. He may not grow up to be #11, but he may have many of the ingredients!

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  12. Aucoin is hugely underrated. I thought the Flames really undervalued him and he had to have been a big part of the Coyotes season this year.

    Could be a cheaper version of Souray with a little less nastiness.

    2.75M over 2 sound ok? I'd bet he resigns with Phoenix though.

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  13. "Shawn Horcoff 09/10 35 hits
    Robert Nilsson 09/10 30 hits

    Not that the hit stat is meaningful or anything. Still, Traktor, if you're going to be wrong, you should try and be wrong the right way."

    Hits per game

    09/10

    Nilsson 0.50
    Horcoff 0.45

    08/09

    Nilsson 0.57
    Horcoff 0.37

    Nice try R O

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  14. Don't worry about the Horcoff trashing.

    If/when he is moved, the guns will simply re-aim at Gagner.

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  15. "If/when he is moved, the guns will simply re-aim at Gagner."

    If Gagner is a 35 point player in a couple years with a poor +/- and a heavy contract I think most organizations would point the gun at him.

    It should be interesting to see if management gives him one of those huge contracts MC was pushing for.

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  16. "The Byfuglien hit on Pronger was the highlight of last night's game. I don't know that I've ever seen him tossed around like that before..and he didn't recover."

    I liked the Bolland slew-foot on Pronger myself. Who could have ever thought grease could be so beautiful?

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  17. I think that if we are deciding if our 1st OV pick will "be a player". I think we should decide on who their comparable is and if they were "a player".

    Let's start with Seguin.

    I am choosing to compare him to David Legwand

    Both played for Plymouth.

    Their draft years:
    Seguin 106pts
    Legwand 105pts

    Rookie Years:
    Seguin 67pts
    Legwand 62pts

    Both players win OHL MVP in their draft year.

    David Legwand scouting report leading up to draft:

    Quote:
    Central Scouting report: Exceptional skater. ... Agile with great balance and able to maneuver effortlessly around opponents. ... Excellent one-on-one and carries the puck with confidence. ... Hard and accurate shot which he can release in stride effectively. ... Tremendous vision and anticipation. ... Able to raise level of his game

    Seguin scouting report:


    Quote:
    "Tyler Seguin makes things happen every time he is on the ice and he makes his teammates better. He's a skilled forward. He's a guy that's obviously a top-line forward with all kinds of puck skills and playmaking abilities. ... He's an elusive guy in traffic, avoiding checks with the puck."
    -Chris Edwards, NHL Central Scouting


    For Taylor Hall I am choosing to use Patrick Marleau as his comparable. I know that it is not perfect because of different leagues and that Hall is being drafted as a lw and Marleau and a center. However, I think their playing styles are very similar and we know that marleau was converted to a winger later in his career and found more success.

    17 year old:
    Markleau: 32 goals and 74 points
    Hall: 38 goals and 90 points

    Draft Year:
    Marleau: 51 goals and 125 points
    Hall: 40 goals and 106 points

    Marleau scouting report:
    Ranked second by CSS among the skaters in North America, Marleau led the Western Hockey League with nine shorthanded goals among his 51 this season for Seattle. The 6-2, 190-pound center is called an "outstanding skater with quick acceleration and speed'' by Central Scouting.

    Taylor Hall Scouting Report:

    In terms of ability, Hall has elite speed. His first few steps are world class and that ability combined with his never say die attitude, make Hall a nightmare for opposing defenders
    -hockey prospects.com

    So, if we are in the ball park of comparables then

    Legwand as a rookie: ***Disclaimer*** injuries had an impact
    71 games and 28 points

    Marleau as a rookie
    74 games and 34 points

    nhle

    Hall: 17-29-46
    Tyler Seguin 19-22-41


    my 2 cents...

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  18. So what is it Traktor? Is it per game, per 60, just point/hit totals total? You use them all, interchangeably even.

    As you yourself once said, "the goalposts keep moving".

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  19. "So what is it Traktor? Is it per game, per 60, just point/hit totals total? You use them all, interchangeably even."

    Hits per game seems fair. If you want to go hits per 60 it will look even worse for Horcoff.

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  20. If Gagner is a 35 point player in a couple years with a poor +/- and a heavy contract I think most organizations would point the gun at him.

    I throw out simple one lines most times if people grab it fine. If not oh well.

    But this I can not let go!
    Hockey is a situational game.

    around 42.5 min Ev and the rest PK and PP.

    there are so many advanced ways to look at players. But the combinations of play for a player is complex.

    Just looking at QUAL COMP/TEAM. If you were to break down the Forwards.

    Real Comp is Qual Competion face with teamate support;
    Qual Comp - Qual Team = real Comp

    Who faces
    My tough is .02 or higher
    Average is .02 to -.02
    Soft is -.02 or less

    1. Tough/avg/Soft RealComp
    2. then of those three groups who faces tough Qual Comp
    3. Then who yeilds GA
    Above 2.35 or less
    Average 2.35 to 2.7
    Below 2.7 or worse
    there are 27 situations in just this simple setting.

    Then add +/- (out scoring). Your up to 54 situations.

    then throw in zone shift at the front. Offensive zone, Neutral zone, Defensive zone.
    Now we are up to 162 groups.

    How about position LW, C, RW
    486 groups

    Now lets bring in the Cap:
    From each of these groups you can get a value for situational player

    Entry level contract
    RFA Contract
    Ufa Contract

    wow up to 1458 groups.

    How many Forwards 420 on 30 teams.

    when you follow the root structure a large portions of the groups scream go to minors.

    What I do know is that from 05/06 to 08/09 Shawn Horcoff faced tough Comp, Outscored, drove the play in +ve direction.

    At the time they were doing the contract 8 centers were able to do this. the average ufa salary was 5.25M. Pull out C. Conroys 1.05M contract and it is 5.85M Plus if you throw in zone shift. He and Mike richards were in a group all there own at the top of the face the toughs at even group.

    But, Hey if you want to look at points this one last time

    He had a real bad year.

    Oh wait! Until the last 1/4 of the season.
    Horcoff:
    22GM 16P .73P/gm +2
    Penner
    22GM 16P .73P/gm +4
    Brule
    17GM 12P .71P/gm -4
    Cogliano
    21GM 15P .71P/gm +3

    So all the people who want to bitch! Slot the player in a group. show that groups salary range and use that as a starting point for a players value.

    LT: the line of Penner, Brule, Cogliano looks NHL to ME.

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  21. Hemsky, Penner Oilers 2 NHL forwards,

    any out of 5 or 6 in the defence, no idea which 2 turn out to be genuine NHL defencemen,

    we're set in goal,

    everyone else is a prospect.

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  22. To me "Actual NHL Players" are guys who would be on the NHL team for the majority of the time if they were placed into other NHL organizations.

    LT's definition sounds more like Impact Players.

    How many teams would Stortini make (the NHL lineup) if he were moved to those teams? If its the majority, I don't know how you don't call him an actual NHL player.

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  23. Sorry about the DP, Blogger is some kinda messed up today.

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  24. ok spOILer you've made your point, sheesh

    Talk about a broken record.

    ;)

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  25. It should be interesting to see if management gives him one of those huge contracts MC was pushing for.

    I wasn't "pushing" for anything with Gagner. I was pointing out one way to structure a deal what Gagner might sign that would buy the Oilers some protection if he doesn't pan out and get them a super cheap asset if he does.

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  26. Spoiler: Actually it's an Octuple post

    Also known as an OD.

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  27. Also known as an OD.

    Oh God! Hit him with the adrenaline!!!

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  28. Spoiler is just doing the same thing as Hunter and others do on topics such as Horcoff and Hall/Seguin, but he is avoiding the unnecesary step of paraphrasing his own thoughts repeatedly.

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  29. It's too bad that we don't have one more affordable year to check out 67 because he might be a good chip to use to pick up a D.

    And yes I believe you can pick up a good D without having to give up a lot but our D isn't in great shape and we really need another babysitter for 5 along with another D as well; or maybe we just need a real #1 but I doubt we're gonna have one of those very soon.

    A guy like 67 with another year like the last one might be an asset that could pull away an underappreciated D.

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  30. Dennis:

    Don't forget that babysitter for 5 also has to be able to move the puck because 5 is one of them special offensive defensemen that don't get any points.

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  31. "A guy like 67 with another year like the last one might be an asset that could pull away an underappreciated D."

    Perhaps Brule is unappreciated himself. I know a large contingent here had him penciled in as a career AHL player so it wouldn't be surprising.

    The kid hits, scores, and goes to the net like Glenn Anderson. He doesn't have the defensive positioning of Jim Dowd but he's still a quality player. I honestly think most that want to move him do so because they hated the Torres trade when it happened and have been looking at Brule through a negative lens ever since.

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  32. spOILer:

    At first I didn`t agree with your point of view. Then you posted again and I started giving it some more thought. By the time you posted it for the eighth time ... I was convinced!

    This debating strategy could revolutionize the internet. I`m going to start using it.

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  33. First of all, holy shit with the repeated posts, and not just from Spoiler. Blogger must be having some serious indigestion today.

    LT: I find it interesting that Horcoff isn't listed as one of MacTavish's generals, when I would expect that to be the case. (I also remember Don Murdoch's story, probably from that same book: lit it up for the Rangers for two and a half years, got hurt, got into the New York nightlife while he was recovering, and was out of the NHL by 25. Ouch.)

    I saw the pic and immediately assumed the post would be called "Three Blind Mice".

    I was thinking "Chop Suey," but I was also playing Rock Band at a friend's place until 10:30 last night.

    You can blame Horcoff's struggles on who he play with or who he played against but when you look at how bad his numbers were on the PP its clear that the problem was Horcoff himself.

    Horcoff not being able to win draws last year is like a field goal kicker that can't kick the ball.


    God damn that man for playing with one shoulder for six months, anyway.

    I also really enjoy how you keep moving the goalposts. (Wait, did I just echo something R O said?)

    Aucoin is hugely underrated. I thought the Flames really undervalued him and he had to have been a big part of the Coyotes season this year.

    The $4M boat anchor he carried around as a Blackhawk and Flame has a lot to do with that. $2.25M, as he made in Phoenix last year? Sure, why not?

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  34. Trak: I like 67 and enjoy watching him play but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with truly paying the guy just yet and I'm 100% comfortable in saying I'm not at all comfortable with our D corps for '11.

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  35. Omigod. Lying Blogger.

    I'd go ahead and delete em but now it seems kinda funny. Thanks for the forbearance, all.

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  36. spOILER said:

    Omigod. Lying Blogger.

    I'd go ahead and delete em but now it seems kinda funny. Thanks for the forbearance, all.

    ReplyDelete
  37. spOILER said:

    Omigod. Lying Blogger.

    I'd go ahead and delete em but now it seems kinda funny. Thanks for the forbearance, all.

    ReplyDelete
  38. spOILER said...

    Omigod. Lying Blogger.

    I'd go ahead and delete em but now it seems kinda funny. Thanks for the forbearance, all.

    ReplyDelete