I've never really known what a "1D' or a "#5D" is, although obviously Chara is one and Staios is another. But what do teams do when Chara isn't on their team? Who plays those tough minutes? Which Oiler defender under 27 do we agree can play top 2 minutes (whatever they are)?
I don't think we'll get too much agreement on that issue. The Oilers have Ladislav Smid on the parent roster and then a large group of "bubbling unders" that include Theo Peckham, Taylor Chorney, Jeff Petry, Alex Plante and Johan Motin. Remember defenseman have all kinds of barriers to break through, including getting enough experience before injuries start to take their toll. Many an Oiler prospect has seen his career fade away due to injuries along the minor league trail (Mathieu Roy is a comedic--if still out there trying--example).
So, what do the Oilers do? Call upon their strengths and sign mid-level free agents? Yes, although as speeds points out that magic wand hasn't been as successful in recent years. They can also utilize free agents from the CHL (MA Bergeron arrived that way) and college and there are no doubt men playing in strong European leagues who can help out here.
The Oilers can do some things this summer to help out the current pro prospects. I think they can help the AHL players by signing some of those minor league veterans to teach the tools of the trade and they can help the current NHL youngsters by bringing in experienced hands who can fill in adequately until the kids develop (or don't and are replaced by new kids).
And this my friends is your Jason Strudwick "Ventilator Blues" post. I'm not really interested in Strudwick's Corsi and Ms. Fenn is much easier on the eyes. Why is this post called Twin Peaks?
You're kidding. Right?
How about forget about the mid level free agents? Put our faith in the lottery again (about a 38% better option than this management group methinks) and go after Adam Larsson, who looks to be a generational prospect.
ReplyDeleteIf we forget about mid-level free agents, then best-case scenario our defense looks like this: Gilbert, Whitney, Smid, Souray-return (Roszival?), three rookies.
ReplyDeleteDoes that look like a recipe for responsible development?
(And of course Smid and, to a lesser extent, Whitney are injury concerns, so we could easily wind up with five rookie defensemen on the NHL roster. I'm not at all adverse to another lottery pick, but that's overkill.)
ReplyDeleteSteve: Agreed. I do think Peckham is going to be a player so that by this time next year we'll be able to count Smid and Peckham in the group of reasonable D into the future.
ReplyDeleteBut force feeding doesn't work (Chorney proves it) and Petry didn't light up the AHL. Those mid-level guys back up the depth chart and make all these kids earn it.
LT, if we can trade Souray to the Stars this summer, maybe we can have #22 Charlie Huddy included in the package. During the MacT and Huddy era, it seemed like the Oil were able to develop dman like it was going out of style.
ReplyDeleteSteve: Agreed. I do think Peckham is going to be a player so that by this time next year we'll be able to count Smid and Peckham in the group of reasonable D into the future.
ReplyDeleteTotally agreed; my ideal team next year would have Peckham platooning something like 61-21 with an untalented veteran (I'd pick Strudwick for reasons I've defended elsewhere and don't really feel like defending again), and have no one else less experienced than Smid beginning the season in the NHL.
Yeah, makes sense. One of the things the Detroit model shows us is the value of developing defensemen by sundial.
ReplyDelete...and have no one else less experienced than Smid beginning the season in the NHL.
ReplyDeleteTo clarify, that should read "...and have no one else less experienced than Smid beginning the season in the NHL on defense." I'm okay with up to two of Hall/Seguin, MPS, Eberle, and Omark starting in the NHL, and there are a few forwards with fewer games played than Smid who I'd welcome back (Gagner, Pouliot, Jones, Stortini, and if the price is right Stone, Cogliano, Brule, and Potulny, though certainly not all eight of the aforelisted).
I think the D has the least question marks of all the positions. We know Whitney and Gilbert make the top pairing and Peckham and Johnson can be a formidable bottom pairing, its just a matter of finding what shape will fit better with Smid.
ReplyDeleteAnd if one doesn't think Strudwick can handle the 7D spot. It's a debate, but its really neither here nor there. Whats more important is the grooming of the youngsters that are underneath Strudwick.
We know [...] Peckham and Johnson can be a formidable bottom pairing
ReplyDeleteI don't think we know that at all; it's far from clear to me that Johnson's a guy you want dressed every night (and there's no guarantee we'll even sign him, so that's another question mark), and Peckham, for all he's impressed us, is still a rookie.
I think Peckham and Johnson have shown enough to deserve another look. I don't think you will be able to find another more econmical third pairing, definitely not within the org. If the Oilers are looking outside, they will have to pay through the nose.
ReplyDeleteIf we agree that Lubo and Smid made a nice pairing, and that we still have Smid, is there value in replacing Lubo with someone who can do some of the things he did (but on a lesser scale)?
ReplyDeleteThat was the idea I had for Meyer in the previous thread, but you could pick MA Bergeron or another of that type.
I think Peckham and Johnson have shown enough to deserve another look.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but it's quite a leap from there to "We know [...] Peckham and Johnson can be a formidable bottom pairing".
If the Oilers are looking outside, they will have to pay through the nose.
If the Oilers are looking to assemble a top-tier defensive corps, they will have to pay through the nose. I'm not saying we need to do that, just that we should get enough veterans to ensure that i. the Oilers aren't bleeding GAs to the point they were last year, and ii. that when the Oilers are bleeding GAs, it's veterans that are doing it, so we're not completely fucking our prospects. There are plenty of veteran FAs who would sign with us in the $1M to $2M range for one year, I think, especially late in the FA period, when some players start realizing that they're not going to find an arrangement with which they're really happy and become satisfied to find a decent gig for one year so they can try their luck again next summer.
LT: I was checking the list for waterbug UFA Dmen and its pretty scarce. I have on my list,Jordan Leopold, Nathan Paestch, and your aformentioned MAB and Freddy Meyer.
ReplyDeleteI think we need a trade here, someone JM Liles or I might even take a flyer on Trevor Daley. Souray might be coveted by those orgs.
Yes! Sherilynn Fenn! I admit, I am a big Twin Peaks/David Lynch fan.
ReplyDeleteSteve: I agree formidable was a tad strong, but I think they could do the job of any 1 or 2 mil/ year Dman can get on the open market. Johnson fits the description of what you idenified and its time for Peckham to sink or swim, as the prospects underneath him are starting to grow and are going to challenge him very soon.
ReplyDeleteSteve: I agree formidable was a tad strong, but I think they could do the job of any 1 or 2 mil/ year Dman can get on the open market. Johnson fits the description of what you idenified and its time for Peckham to sink or swim, as the prospects underneath him are starting to grow and are going to challenge him very soon.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think we're mostly on the same page; I just disagree that a Johnson-Peckham pairing is without question marks. Johnson's only played more than 40 NHL games in a season once, so he's not really the ideal veteran presence, and Peckham could always, as you put it, sink. But yeah, I want Peckham on my third pairing, and could live with Johnson if no one better is available.
Yikes - tough crowd.
ReplyDeleteSteve eventually got around to my point. Low-level FA's are fine with me.
Mid-level to me is $2MM-$3MM/season.
Yeah, makes sense. One of the things the Detroit model shows us is the value of developing defensemen by sundial.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about that LT. Can't we just as easily argue they've had some late developing prospects and a pretty good D on a pretty good team, making it tough for youngsters to crack? As opposed to some conscious choice to hold players in the minors longer than some might deem necessary for development purposes?
speeds: Well its chicken or egg. My main point is that it is best to avoid another "Taylor Chorney is learning on the job" season. I don't remember the last Red Wing defenseman who looked that far out of his league, but it might have been Randy Ladouceur as a young man.
ReplyDeleteLow-level FA's are fine with me.
ReplyDeleteMid-level to me is $2MM-$3MM/season.
Ah - I somehow inferred from your comment that you didn't want to sign any FA defensemen, which is of course not what you said at all. My apologies.
This is how Brian Burke deals with not having an elite defenseman. I think it's a novel system:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fadoo.ca/blog/display/the-burke-system-270
LT:
ReplyDeleteFair enough. I guess I just wonder if Taylor Chorney in DET would look the same as Taylor Chorney in EDM.
The problem with the Detroit model is that the new CBA leads to requiring waivers so much sooner. Next thing you know you've developed the next Kyle Quincy... for somebody else.
ReplyDeletespeeds: Good point. Its easier to back up the depth chart when Lidstrom is at the front of the line.
ReplyDeleteWhat's so impressive about Peckham?
ReplyDeleteHe's -9 in 31 NHL games with 1 point. I agree it's better than Chorney, but i wouldn't bet too much on him.
As for UFA's i think MAB will resign in Montreal. If not, don't give him more than 5-6 spot. Can't handle too much icetime. Turnover machine. But on 5-6 pairing it's steady with a cannon for the PP.
(Like Sheldon Souray but not making 5M$)
For more on why LT called this post Twin Peaks (beyond the obvious)
ReplyDeleteyes, the Detroit model is nice, but what about Anaheim who has had Pronger and Neidermayer. How many young d-men have they developed ?
ReplyDeleteThey had to give up a top prospect pick to Edmonton in Smid, but who else have they developed ?
Along the same line, look how the Habs kept P.K. Subban in the minors all year. Now that's discipline as they could have made the 911 call when the opted for MA Bergeron.
It takes discipline, of which we all know is in short supply in the Oilers' offices.
Regwald: Yes but they did fucked up with Price, Latendresse and Pacioretty earlier. Just hope the Oil can learn from the errors.
ReplyDeleteFPB, talk is always cheap. We will see who is playing where in October ... that is the first test.
ReplyDeleteRe: Mathieu Roy, he played for Rochester in the playoffs, with fellow former Oilers Mike York and Steve MacIntyre and former All-star candidate Rory Fitzpatrick. He spent most of the year in the ECHL. Also, set a career high for 10 assists in 31 games with CBJ. It'd be nice to see him pull a career out of that broken body of his. I remember the first time I saw him play.. Late in the game he turned toward the boards to protect the puck and roll past the forechecker. Didn't work how he planned, got leveled and had concussion to show for his efforts. Probably missed a month of work, and within a couple games of returning, gets flattened in almost the exact same way. Done for the season plus "aches and pains" til late October. For the rest of that next season it was a mess of 'upper body injuries'.. separated shoulder, bruised ribs, wrist, etc..
ReplyDeletePlayed 97 games this year plus 6 playoff games between the NHL, AHL and ECHL so maybe those injuries are behind him.
Off-topic (sort of - the question arises from my attempt to answer FPB's question about why we like Peckham), but behindthenext.ca is confusing me: if I try to pull data on Edmonton's players in 2009-2010, it appears to exclude Staios, Grebeshkov, and Vis, but if I pull it for Calgary's players it includes Johnson. How can I get data for all players who played with the Oilers in 2009-2010, including those who were traded?
ReplyDeleteAmazing how Oilers during MacT's last season had for a time, a top four to collectively rival anyones.
ReplyDeleteThey could clear the zone so quickly the stone handed forwards would seem to get twice the chances to score(although they needed more than that).
I think we need to sign two defense men (or sign one and get one in a trade). You folks know I like Clark and Foster, each what I will think will go for around 2 or 2.5 for a year or two: I just don't think any GM will sign them to a long term contract (age and leg respectively). I like the idea of attempting to get a Jan Hejda type player from Europe.
ReplyDeleteWhy wasn't Kevin Lowe out at the looking through European Leagues during their playoffs, isn't that what he is useful for? Anything else?
For a clear idea of headline and Fenn:
ReplyDeleteTwo Moon Junction
Terrible movie but most definitely clears any questions on that front.
Nice Twin Peaks drop,
ReplyDeleteProbably (along with Larry Sanders and a few others) one of the greatest TV shows ever, got the full DVD set last Christmas.
I was like 11 years old when it came so looking back I can't imagine how I ever found about it and decided I wanted to watch it but I'm glad I did.
I thought LT chose Twin Peaks because like Team Oiler, it's incomprehensible to 90% of its fans?
ReplyDeleteAnd a big part of that difficulty is justified. Fortunately, the Oil seem to have as many loose ends.
Lynch wrote himself into a pretty big hole with the series, but managed to resolve a lot of the problems with the wrapper movie, Fire Walk with Me. Sadly, Ms. Fenn and her Bobbsey Twins failed to appear.
Where will we find the solution to the Oilers' messed-up story? Is there a Lynchian genius at the helm of this picture show? Doesn't look like it from the movie so far. Looks pretty much like a Michael Bay disaster flick.
Till a dwarf asks, "?noskcaJ dna ggerG s'meat siht dnif ew erehw, HOTO"
We have three players you could call NHL defencemen, and one of them (Smid) is injury prone. The last thing we need is to be in a situation where we need to rush Plante, Petry, Motin - if Chorney was ever going to be a player we've probably set him back a year or two by playing him as much as we did last year. If the Oilers are truly rebuilding, none of these players should get more than a cup of coffee next year.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers need, then, to bring in at least two and probably three defencemen, one of whom should be capable of killing penalties and playing twenty minutes a night. The latter would have to be acquired in a trade because the Oilers really have little to offer players in their prime - few of whom ever want to play for a mess of a team like the Oilers. There's no way Hamhuis or Michayluk sign here - why would they?
That leaves reclamation projects (Mike Van Ryn, if he can still play), players who've been bouncing back and forth between the minors and the NHL and might do well in the third pairing (Steve Wagner, Shawn Belle) and the aged and oft-injured looking for one more chance (Aaron Ward, Nick Wallin or Ruslan Salei).
Perhaps a guy like Freddie Meyer falls through the cracks and is available to the Oilers as a FA, it's a nice thought but, after years as an Islander there are probably 28 teams he'd rather play for than the Oilers.
I hope Tambellini is sniffing around Chicago at some point this summer.
ReplyDeleteBurish is there to be had.
Fraser, Eager and Ladd are RFA's.
That is very good talent without whale hunting.
P Sharp at 3.9 for two more years
or
A Hemsky at 4.1 for two more years
Yet another Hemsky troll.
ReplyDeleteMid-level to me is $2MM - $3MM/season.
ReplyDelete$2.5 million per season is a 2nd round 2011 investment for a RFA signing this summer. Chicago is in cap trouble - big time.
Hjalmarsson is carrying the load right now with top line minutes. He is at an age that justifies the investment.
Our top 4 defensemen set up for years - do it....
Gord...
ReplyDeleteA neat idea but I'd rather sign Johnsson at a discount to his present salary, and not give up a draft pick during a re-building phase.
Lilja would be even better because he's already won the biggie and might be interested in one last good paycheque.
I'm looking at Swedes because one of the toughest jobs going forward in the development area is going to be Magnum PS.
Someone who could help the transition for MPS in OK City would be nice too.
And a couple of decent vet defenseman could be a calming influence and good mentors for a young team as a whole. Lilja comes from a successful system and has SCF experience.
Guys like Lilja and Johnsson aren't going to be as sought after as Hamhuis and Volchenkov. Might be possible to slip under the radar.
Whitney, Souray and Gilbert are 2s at best. Better if they're your 3s.
ReplyDeleteSmid is a 4.
Strudwick is a 7.
Johnson is not a competent NHL Dmen of any number.
The Oilers lack a 1 (Pronger), a crease-clearing 2, and competent 5/6s.
In short, the Oilers are fked.
pissed with the flames asks:
ReplyDeleteI only had the opportunity to watch Taylor Chorney once this year, but was impressed with the shots he blocked in that game
Why is everyone so down on this kid?
Considering we'll have 3 spots open in our top 6 once you account for Souray's departure, I don't think there's any way we don't have at least one rookie defenseman in the lineup. Chorney and Peckham are the obvious candidates there, but hopefully they don't have both in regular duty.
ReplyDeleteIf you can get a defenseman back in the Souray trade (I think Commodore makes some sense from all sides), then that's one spot for a rookie, and one spot for his partner. Which leaves you with one spot in the top 6 and a 7th.
A name I'd like to see the Oilers give some thought to is Mike Weaver out in St.Louis. He might not make it to free agency, but if he does, he'd be a nice depth defenseman who plays RD and can PK. With Polak, Jackman, and Brewer, he might be seen as expendable to the Blues brass. Strudwick's probably back next year, but he shouldn't be higher than #7 on any NHL depth chart
Is Igor Ulanov available?
ReplyDeletespeeds: Good point. Its easier to back up the depth chart when Lidstrom is at the front of the line.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I'd be happy with shoring up the D a bit, and grabbing cheap vets only. It sure would be nice to have a chance at a Lidstrom type to pace the Oilers for the next decade and a half (Adam Larsson).
Is Igor Ulanov available?
ReplyDeleteLimit yourself to one account, please, Heather.
Vandelay - good post.
ReplyDeleteBut on a rebuilding team, I don't see the Oilers spending the cash on a true #1 guy at this point.
But please, enough with the puck moving guys. Even with Grebs in Nashville for now and Souray on his way out we still have too many.
We need 2 experienced defenders who can play 15-20 minutes a night who are solid positionally, can handle rough board play, clean up the puck in front of the net and hit some guys.
Decent skating would be a plus, but these should be guys who you don't mind taking a shot from the point, but aren't so willing to jump on the attack.
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ReplyDeletewww.fedrado.ru Здесь представлены модели самых мощных и быстрых из всей коллекции BMW/
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