This is Yvan Cournoyer. He was a bullet on the ice, high octane offense off the rush and absolute excitement. He had more breakaways than anyone else in my lifetime and I don't think it is close. A modern day comparable might be Pavel Bure (in terms of dynamic skaters) and I bet there are old timey defensemen who still have nightmares about Cournoyer getting a step on them.tsn is covering this year's NHL combine. I'm not absolutely certain how much the bicycle and the other disciplines tell hockey people about these kids; the NFL combine features testing on men who are 4 or 5 years older than these hockey kids. I don't know how an Yvan Cournoyer would have performed back in the day, and I know guys like Gerry Cheevers would have looked pretty damn funny in a hefty bag.
However, I do think tsn is just miles ahead of anyone else in regard to promoting hockey and making it a year-round event. I think the NFL has learned some things about the draft from the NHL (first round in prime time) and that the NHL is learning some things from the NFL. tsn is at the forefront of many of these changes and is looking for another opportunity to create an event out of very little.
I wouldn't bet against them, they've done it before. Examples are the NHL trade deadline, entry draft and July 1st. In a country where television is basically an American experience, tsn is a breath of fresh air.
Don't forget the WJC, TSN has made that into something of an event in itself from something many other countries consider a relative obscurity.
ReplyDeleteSome interesting tidbits for prospect size from TSN, these guys are still 18 and so I don't know what they've been eating:
ReplyDeleteTyler Seguin 6.01 186lbs 39 pushups (most so far)
Taylor Hall 6.01 185
Derek Forbort 6.05 198
Dylan McIlrath 6.04 212
Jarred Tinordi 6.05 205
Nothing solid on Brock Beukeboom other than "he's a big strong kid" with "room to fill out".
Agreed! And uni great point. The WJC has been a staple for me for almost 20 years. With CBC hurting money wise I expect them to move away from sports and TSN to take up the slack. TSN 2 is now showing NFL on Sundays, and with online live streaming becoming a more common thing I expect TSN to lead the charge in streaming events like the combine, war rooms during the draft, etc. Wouldn't it be cool (or maybe boring) to have a camera and mic on the Oilers table during the draft? Seeing the trades that happen. Not sure how many people saw it, but a few years back there was an hour long thing on the NBA draft that followed Toronto and Colangelo around and taped him making trade calls and pick calls to other teams. it was fascinating to see what happens. I think Oil fans would be glued to the computer if we could see and hear the talk between the GM and the scout team. Not to mention the trade talk between the GM's.
ReplyDeleteGood to read someone say something nice about the MSM. Although there a few guys out there who don't seem to put much thought into what they're saying/writing, but overall there aren't a lot of MSM types I have a problem with they have there thing and the blogoshpere has it's thing.
ReplyDeleteThe thing I like most about the TSN crew is they obviously have great enthusiasm and love of the game...and it shows. Say what you want about Pierre McGuire but I don't think anyone can question his passion for hockey is still strong nearing 20 years since his Pittsburg days.
As a Canadian hockey fan that moved to Australia (and married an Aussie) I'm forced to watch versus or foxsports via the NHL gamecenter package.
ReplyDeleteYou don't realize what TSN brings until it's gone.
Less Cricket... More Hockey!
In regards to DBO's comment about CBC hurting financially and moving away from sports, they will never give up HNIC will they? That would be a real bummer as we don't get TSN in North Dakota and I love watching HNIC on CBC.
ReplyDeleteVince, I give absolutely no points to Pierre for his enthusiasm. Most frequenters here have a passion for the game. The simple fact is that while he does have good knowledge of hockey, he trumps that with his hyperbole and fawning, and I find the periods between his incessant annoying rants and when he actually says something useful to be greater and greater.
ReplyDeleteHe's what TSN wants, someone to generate reaction and keep people talking about TSN. Similar to Don Cherry on CBC. I find Cherry less annoying that MacG myself.
DBO,
ReplyDeleteNHL Network (at least here in the U.S.) did a series of draft "All Access" shows where they did just that...Mic'ed up GM's on the night before and day of the draft. I remember seeing them for like '05 through '08. It was pretty interesting just to here the anatomy of a trade conversations between GM's. If memory serves they wired Burke, Waddell, McPhee, Holland and a couple others.
Also from TSN, Seguin appears for all the world to be calm and confident. Apparently he is in phenomenal shape, so far with the most push-ups (39 but very early still) and he apparently just crushed the bench press doing 40 reps with little difficulty.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside both Seguin and Kabanov seem to be covered in tatoos.
I say the Oil grab Seguin and Kabanov 1st and 31st overall. They could reach a whole new demographic of fan =).
Tyler Seguin 6.01 186lbs 39 pushups (most so far)
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean 39 pushups? I presume that he can do more than 39 pushups as that would seem like something your average 'in shape' person could do.
Hey easy on the cricket! It's a great sport once you get your head around. Am actually watching day 2 of the first England-Bangladesh test at Lords this very moment.
ReplyDeleteLess rugby league, more hockey perhaps? :)
HNIC is a real money maker for cbc, to the extent it supports other programming. I don't see it going anywhere.
ReplyDeleteBookie, the push ups are according to form, as soon as you break form you're done.
ReplyDeleteThey have to be straight, go all the way to the ground (1 fist length) then come all the way back up.
Most people don't do 'perfect' push ups according to form, and I don't know many people that can do 39 in a row properly, keep in mind also that these are 18 year old kids.
Also anyone in the GTA up for getting together for cricket games let me know. I'd love to get some in, been years.
ReplyDeleteUni, I guess I did say "say what you want about Pierre McGuire!" and from what I read about him on comment boards like this one it seems your opinion is the consensus...and I'm inclined to agree somewhat.
ReplyDeleteI guess what I was trying to say is some journalists who've been around the game a while come off kinda of cynical and jaded...but not on TSN.
Uni,also you're right about what they've done in WJC's it's seems every year I notice more casual fans getting excited about the tournament; whether it's women talking about it at work or showing up to a party over the holidays only to find every one crowded around the television cheering on our kids.
ReplyDeleteThe Bure comparison works for me LT, but not sure it's actually too modern since the guy hasn't been relevant in nearly a decade.
ReplyDeleteAlong those lines, a buddy of mine had a horrifying "uh-oh, I might be getting old" moment last week when he was talking to a summer student at his office about the playoffs. He said the kid is a big fan and knows his stuff, but when they were talking about the Bruins collapse in G7, my buddy said something about how it seemed like not even Ray Bourque himself could have kept them from falling apart. The kid looked at him and asked with complete sincerity, "Who's Ray Bourque?"
Ugh.
Hi Lowetide. I read this blog all the time, but rarely comment. Keep up the great work, it's a daily requirement for me now. Apologizing in advance for the threadjack (although this post features a historical Hab), but the guys at puckdaddy put up some absolutely hilarious Habs hate, and given your feelings about that team, I thought you might appreciate it. My apologies if someone already posted this previously, or if you have already seen it (also, my apologies in advance to FPV):
ReplyDeletehttp://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Eulogy-Remembering-the-2009-10-Montreal-Canadie?urn=nhl%2C243595
In other news, so far in the TSN poll Tyler Seguin has gained an impressive 6 points on Taylor Hall.
ReplyDelete59% to 39% now.
Tarasenko looks built, apparently he's ripped and looks solid and stocky, very close to NHL ready physically.
Seguin still the early favourite for most fit.
Uni
ReplyDeleteSadly I've never played. And live on the wrong side of the pond for a GTA league...
It's a fantastic spectator sport though. Sitting by a cricket pitch with a picnic and a lot of beer is great English summer pastimes.
Marc, yep and that warm ale some of them like comes in handy for Test matches.
ReplyDeleteKabanov has impressed with good results on the vertical and a few others. Physically he has great potential if he's willing to put in the work. If anyone drafts this kid and gets his head on straight yowsa. Since he's unlikely to ever play in the KHL it can't be too hard to draft and develop this kid no? I mean he's not a Bonsignore or a Daigle in that he does actually want to play hockey.
Seguin so far has impressed with his fitness, obviously had put a lot of work into it. Also seems to handle the media very easily. Said he wants to go 1st, but his ultimate goal is to make a team, have a career, win a cup.
From the combine...
ReplyDeleteBioSteelSports: Taylor Hall has a back injury and a knee injury and won't be doing any tests
Damn, Hall with leg and back injuries so he won't be doing any testing. Well so much for the much anticipated head to head for current fitness level with Seguin.
ReplyDeleteNow 57% to 41% for Hall on the TSN poll.
i am pretty stoked about the draft for sure! i'd like to see as well who the Oilers take at #31 (or if they trade higher).
ReplyDeleteIn an interview with Gregor - I think last week Seguin said he was taking advantage of the time off and hitting the gym to increase his strength, etc during the Memorial cup.
ReplyDeleteI guess the results are showing at the combine.
So do you give Hall points for playing well through injuries or detract them for his showing wear and tear from his style of play?
ReplyDeleteI realize some think Hall is the safer pick because of his long history of performance, but I have a hard time believing Hall will play more games in the next 10 years than Seguin.
Don't forget the WJC, TSN has made that into something of an event in itself from something many other countries consider a relative obscurity.
ReplyDeleteI believe they were the first to live-stream a game, too. They were streaming the WJC in 2006 or something like that. CBC only started streaming their games a couple of years ago.
As for innovations, Sportsnet gets a small point for wiretapping the hotline to the video goal judge during the Memorial Cup. I'd love to know what the hell's taking so long when they spend 10 minutes framing forward to see if someone's toe nicked the puck on its way in or whatever.
What do you mean 39 pushups? I presume that he can do more than 39 pushups as that would seem like something your average 'in shape' person could do.
As Uni said, 39 push-ups without breaking "correct" form in any way. However much we exercise, I bet all of us would start sagging or slowing far, far before 39 (I think my best is 8, but then I've never been good at sticking to a resistance program).
As for what the bike tells you, LT, they're looking for anaerobic capacity (the Wingate test, usually 30s, but may be adapted for more hockey-focused testing, like say 5s on, 5s off, repeated for 30s) or aerobic capacity (VO2max, i.e. how much oxygen you can process when your aerobic system is working maximally), though that's usually tested on a treadmill. A good aerobic base means better recovery between shifts and between games, while a better anaerobic capacity means better performance when going all-out within an individual shift.
In regards to DBO's comment about CBC hurting financially and moving away from sports, they will never give up HNIC will they?
Hell, no. HNIC's their cash cow, especially when Toronto's in the playoffs. ;)
Question:
ReplyDeleteIs your plan A simply to stride to the podium to select Hall, or is plan A to trade the pick to Boston for #2 and an NHL player? I don't think plan A would be the pick flip or even an additional pick (as those are always uncertain), but a proven NHLer would seal it wouldn't it?
NHLer+Seguin over Hall alone?
The guy I'm thinking of based on previous comments is Blake Wheeler, but there are other options of course.
Is your plan A simply to stride to the podium to select Hall, or is plan A to trade the pick to Boston for #2 and an NHL player? I don't think plan A would be the pick flip or even an additional pick (as those are always uncertain), but a proven NHLer would seal it wouldn't it?
ReplyDeleteI think it will be C - go the podium first overall, but having assured Boston they will get their guy and get a 'future considerations' type of deal later (our garbage for their quality + dropping their payroll).
Oh, and BioSteel says on their Twitter that Seguin "crushed" the Wingate. From a fitness perspective, Seguin passes with flying colours from all indications thus far.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the combine, for me, is that I'm not really sure what it all means.
ReplyDeletePlayer X is in great shape, while Player Y is in poor shape and they have the same level of on-ice performance.
Do you draft Player X, because he's committed to his personal fitness, or do you draft Player Y because with you overseeing his fitness he can play at an even higher level?
I assume the answer is X, but I'm not sure that it really matters: on-ice results are on-ice results.
KPDupont out of Boston speculating that if the bruins were to blow assets to move up it'd be with their lower pick to move up to the 4-5 spot to try to land one of the highly rated defensemen. Didn't expect it to happen for Hall.
ReplyDeletejw - the Oil seem to use Camp Mendelbaum as an indication of a player's commitment - to a fault, I believe. I suspect this is partially why Cogs is still flailing away, Penner is dumped on and Moreau is still around.
ReplyDeleteI suspect Chad Moreau gets traded along with Ethan. Fingers crossed.
I wish our guys would grab a clue.
Too bad Shawn Horcoff isn't there being tested. According to today's logic, he might be the first overall pick.
ReplyDeleteDeano: I'm fairly sure Chad Moreau's already gone.
ReplyDeletePlease elaborate.
ReplyDeletei posted this in one of the many seguin threads. this is from his "work out and performance" centre.
ReplyDeletedude takes his workouts seriously and admits his weaknesses openly (groin). this kid is a beauty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHw8Ifq41E
I assume the answer is X, but I'm not sure that it really matters: on-ice results are on-ice results.
ReplyDeleteOdd statement. I would've assumed you'd go for the superior process producing similar results, since it's more likely to be sustainable (or in this case, more likely to be improved upon during maturation).
Please elaborate.
There was an interview with an LA blog that described him as being a "former" Oilers S&C coach, now working with some of the Kings (and some ex-Oilers). Also, I don't necessarily get the fervor of hatred over Moreau the S&C coach: if his statements regarding players not getting to the gym enough during the season are true, then it's not necessarily his fault, because you have to be able to work out to maintain the fitness required not to get destroyed on routine hits.
TSN replayed the Stanley playoff broadcasts, CBC didn't. A travesty.
ReplyDeleteTSN needs a Western desk.
They have also helped rebuild the CFL.
Well done, TSN. I especially enjoy the panels with our old friends MacT, Razor Ray, SuperPeca and all the Edmo-airwave broadcasting alumni.
Lowetide, I assume you will be at the Folk Fest this year to see your favourite prodigal daughter perform?
I like Hall. I worry that after ignoring our centre ice dilemma for so long, we waste our #1 on "seems to fit", as opposed to BPA.
I will support whomever slips on the copper and blue, and I am ecstatic about MPS next year, and his impact on Cogliano and Gagner's career (assuming both stay)
Since Slow Lowe remains in the picture, I hope he can produce some more help on the blueline through trade or free agency - his one talent. We are sunk again next year without some serious grit on the blue.
seguin is also going to force tattoos on his first son if he has one one day. would the oilers have the rights to trade his first born child for some golden straw? i'm very sick right now...
ReplyDeleteSo when's the first story about Seguin's tattoos dividing the locker room going to pop up? Are Seguin's tattoos the real reason why Penner is fat, Moreau takes stupid penalties, Khabibulin drinks, and MacTavish lost the room? Inquiring minds want to know.
ReplyDeletedoogie - the hatred is for using off-ice criteria to alter on-ice decisions. Like ice-time. As JW is questioning: are they correlated as highly as people think?
ReplyDeleteI think Penner's attitude toward Camp Mendelbaum was used against him by the org, to everyone's (most importantly to me - the fans') detriment.
Chad Moreau (and Ethan too) ends up with far greater influence than he is warranted.
Similarly, I feel that Dave Gagner is part of the difference Sam Gagner's development over the rest of our prospects.
I can't say for sure from as far away as I am, but except for Sammy, our prospects do not seem to progress. Not in the NHL, not in the AHL.
Maybe my vision is coloured, but its one thing to not reach the NHL as a player. Its another to not improve as a player.
I am sure over the summer, in the course of doing what he does, LT will provide enough details about individual prospects to show whether my speculation is accurate.
@deano: I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that an out-of-shape player shouldn't play as many minutes as one who's well-conditioned, though obviously not to the level of disparity we saw with Penner a couple of years ago (ability to play hockey should come first, but lack of fitness will hamper that). I also think that Chad and Ethan Moreau's respective influences are getting unreasonably conflated, here: Chad's influence, according to him anyway, largely died when Pronger left the team, because there was no longer a star player demanding gym time (the Mandelbaumians' positions of leadership on the team having some effect, but apparently not having enough to achieve that particular end). Let me dig up that interview again...here we are. Obviously, anyone can be self-serving in an interview, but that's politics: his exercise science is perfectly fine, at least in the limited amount I know. Elite S&C folk have an exceedingly tight rope to walk -- far more than most people appreciate -- in balancing the needs of an elite athlete to maintain, never mind improve, their conditioning, with avoiding overtraining and repetitive strain injury. There's a reason I'm in biomechanics, not exercise physiology. ;)
ReplyDeleteI also think you're conflating our poor development system with the S&C system, which are only related to a small degree. Errors in coaching and player procurement are surely at least as important as errors in training when considering the success of at team, no?
Now 57% to 41% for Hall on the TSN poll.
ReplyDeleteThat shows the mindset of the 'well informed' public. When Hall is on TV playing his value skyrockets, when Seguin is on TV doing pushup his value shoots up. Shiney Things...
Imagine if one of them got a staring role in a sitcom - they would probably be anounced the greatest player to ever play the game.
Wait, what? Bobby Orr is Hall's agent?
ReplyDeleteis anyone getting streaming coverage of the combine, other than the little tsn webisodes?
ReplyDeletedoogie - all I am really attempting to do is diagnose a sick organization from afar. This business is purely a people business and it is operating far below capacity.
ReplyDeleteAfter Smytty's departure, Moreau's influence increased to the detriment of the team. MacT was unable to navigate the transition (contain Moreau?) and it cost him his job. If Moreau's brother is also a casualty, so be it. The trouble is not his S&C skills, but his political relationships in the org.
We aren't going to be able to send all (any other?) of our guys to Dave Gagner, but finding another, unaffiliated S&C expert will not be difficult.
@Deano: Agreed. Chad is sort of guilty by association with Ethan, whom we've all decided is a big part of the problem from afar (based on decent circumstantial evidence), but it's not his S&C training that's the problem. It just sort of rankles me that the two things are being sort of intermixed: Ethan's (presumed) attitude towards those not willing to work with his brother/work to his standard versus Chad's S&C work, and how much of the Oilers' injury woes are overtraining versus undertraining. There's a lot we don't know, and a lot we're probably not terribly qualified to speculate on: I'd rather focus on the things we can observe for ourselves, i.e. the on-ice product.
ReplyDeleteI presume that he can do more than 39 pushups as that would seem like something your average 'in shape' person could do.
ReplyDeleteHaving been in the army once, what they consider a pushup is not what the average person does. A proper army pushup is probably twice as hard as a normal push up.
The 'pushups for jesus' guy at the fringe always made me laugh.
So Hall has back and knee injuries that are keeping him from participating in the combine? I think anytime you hear "back injury" associated with a player your favorite team might be taking 1st overall, I think that's cause for concern. I've been on the "Hall star's will shine brighter initially but Seguin will have a more solid, lengthy career" bandwagon for a long time but this might cinch the pick for me. I hope Tambo can convince Chiarelli they will need to pony something of value up to keep the Oiler's away from Hall and we get the player we want plus an asset out of this draft.
ReplyDelete"...we get the player we want plus an asset out of this draft."
ReplyDeleteThat sort of thinking really worked out in 2003. Why shouldn't it work again?
That sort of thinking really worked out in 2003. Why shouldn't it work again?
ReplyDeleteBecause we'd only be passing on one player, not five or six?
hunter - the 2003 draft can be an example about prospect injuries also.
ReplyDeleteApparently the push-up test is done with a metronome as well, so you can't just pump them off as fast as you can, like most people do...which only adds to the difficulty in keeping proper form.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said, mark me on the 'what does it even mean' ledger. 3 years back Oiler fans were split on picking Gagner or Voracek, then the combine came and Gagner aced it while Voracek 'got through it', to put it charitably. That swayed at least some fans towards going with Gagner as their choice.
Fast forward to now, can we say it was any indicator of future performance at all?
re: hall injuries. i believe that the injuries are being overstated and it appears that his agent (orr) was more concerned that other kids had been preparing for this test for 2 months, while Hall has been playing.
ReplyDeletei think there was concern that he might not score very well due to lack of preparation.
I like the way Hall is already taking steps to fit in with his future team. I just hope his finger-pointing and drinking and driving skills are as NHL-ready as his "being injured" skills.
ReplyDeleteI was going to make a smart remark about Kevin Lowe wearing all his 6 cup rings to show off to Hall's agent, then decided against it.
ReplyDelete[Oilers President of Hockey Operations]
ReplyDeleteWe're a great team, I have 6 Stanley Cup rings!
[Taylor Hall's Agent]
Yeah, well I'm Bobby Orr.
For those not following but somewhat interested:
ReplyDeleteJack Campbell has done very well, rating higher overall than the other prospects so far in the 'god given abilities' domain. Very athletic (high and long jumps). Kabanov ranks just below Campbell and has also been impressive.
Bjustad is apparently a very impressive physical specimen, and has the bench record so far at 18 and 307lbs on pull strength. MacFarland is also putting in an impressive display of strength.
There seems to be a great deal of interest in Granlund as apparently a throng of NHL staff are following him around.
Fast forward to now, can we say it was any indicator of future performance at all?
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember someone going to the microstats and giving Gagner the decisive advantage, but I can't find it for the life of me. Must've been in a random comment thread around here.
Also, colour me surprised that in 2010, people are actually questioning whether better fitness is relevant.
ReplyDeletedoogie - in my experience, real life is mostly pass-fail, not curved.
ReplyDeleteBy implication, 'fit enough' is sufficient.
Seguin impressive today. Looks like he's going to be a tough bugger. Hard to believe he's so young with the mass he's built.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what kind of laugh it would have been to see Gretzky do this stuff.
//So Hall has back and knee injuries that are keeping him from participating in the combine?//
ReplyDeleteHow soon people forget what the boys-on-the-bus say they learned after losing the first Stanley Cup final to the Islanders after they walked by their dressing room.
Memorial Cup ended last Sunday. If you aren't hurting, you weren't trying hard enough.
@hunter1909
ReplyDelete"That sort of thinking really worked out in 2003. Why shouldn't it work again?"
Because it didn't work out once in 2003, the Oilers should never trade down in the draft again?
This reminds me of the Twain quote "The cat, having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either.”
I think these events are basically athletes-as-horseflesh and while yes there's certainly the reality that fitness equals success and that's what we watch when we tune into events the idea of watching how the sausage gets made smacks to women - and gay guys and guys who are secretly gay - watching Entertainment Tonight to see Julia Roberts with her kids.
ReplyDeleteThe deal with MacGuire is that I used to love the guy but I was once listening to an mtl radio station back when the Expos were still alive and he came on talking about Stoll for some reason and he was just telling lies and I guess that's because he was unprepared. So I imagined that if he wasn't up to speed on Stoll then there were lots of other teams and players that he also didn't know the deal about.
And yes it's true that TSN has done a fine job of promoting the WJC and also making guys like me sick of it. I knew there was a chance the Oilers could take Hall and of course Eberle was there but I couldn't watch this year's edition.
To close with MacGuire there's only so many times I can hear about how Clarke macCarthur once pissed for 3 minutes straight while also starting and finishing Ulysses.
By implication, 'fit enough' is sufficient.
ReplyDeleteNot in elite athletics, it isn't. When you're at the very highest end, small improvements are tough to come by and can make a material difference.
I wonder what kind of laugh it would have been to see Gretzky do this stuff.
One of the ex-phys profs here at U of C used to do fitness testing for the Oilers out of U of A (actually, two did: one during the Dynasty, another during the lovable-underdog years). Suffice to say...pretty fucking comical.
This whole thing makes me remember some rant Mark Spector had a couple years back on the radio about what a terrible start Raffi was having, but at least there had been a ton of hype coming into the season about what great shape he'd gotten himself into during the summer.
ReplyDeleteSomething like, "I'll tell ya though, as everyone in the organization keeps saying, this guy is in phenomenal shape. And one day, he's going to realize that the season started, and boy it's going to pay off."
I'd obviously prefer anybody we draft to be pretty dedicated to fitness as a pro athlete, but I hope they're not putting too much stock in this thing.
It's one of many factors.
TSN needs a Western desk.
ReplyDeleteWith the desk mocking TO.
"Breaking news brian burke has taken another shit."
"Pierre will now let you know if it was a monster!"
A Western yang to TO ying.
TO: "Toronto has traded 3rd stringers Matt stajan, Hagman and White for the next toronto Captain Dion Phanuef."
Western version:
"Calgary has traded Phanuef who is the second worst defensive damn in the league since signing his new contract for The 25th ranked point scoring center stajan; The 20th best goal scoring LW; and the 30th best offensive dman in the league. Hopefully Dion gets back to his old self."
It's one of many factors.
ReplyDeleteExactly. They also do interviews, have sports psychologists do testing, do some stats work on the kid (depending on the organization). In amongst all that, sometimes they watch them play hockey, too. ;)
Havent' seen anyone post the central scouting combine link, apologies if it's already in the thread:
ReplyDeletehttp://centralscouting.nhl.com/link3/cs/public-home.nsf/page?readform&app=combine
If you use the pull-down menu they list the top 10 in each test.
ReplyDeleteHard to believe they have all this data but don't update the height and weight measurements - what would be a better time to get current, accurate measurements for height and weight? Maybe they take it, but don't make it publicly available?
can make a material difference.
ReplyDeleteProve it. Show me how the guys who score better at the fitness tests are superior performers on the ice/field/court whatever...
What you'll find is that above a certain cutoff (pass/fail) they are distributed in a Poisson fashion amongst the population. i.e. more at the lower levels, getting rarer up into higher production levels (long tail) Just like any other attribute like eye colour.
For every Brind'amour there's a Penner.
"Because it didn't work out once in 2003, the Oilers should never trade down in the draft again?"
ReplyDeleteGiven the morons running this franchise for the past decade, I'd say no to trying to do anything but the most obvious to everyone else thing.
Trading down to lose Parise, Jessee Niinniimaki, Alex Plante, wasting a pair of high picks for the chance to draft the probably impossible to sign Nash, plus all the humiliating offer sheets and UFA rejections more or less have left a lot of the hard core fans somewhat cynical.
Like the sucker in the poker game who always sees potential in every hand, are these Edmonton Oilers.
Seguin is more handsome and his tats are cool. I hope the Oilers pick him.
ReplyDelete@Deano: Aw, come on. Really?
ReplyDeleteObviously, skill level is the most important determinant of success. But better fitness optimizes a player's ability to use their skills: faster skating, harder hitting, harder shooting, better recovery between shifts and games, reduced chance of injury, and so on.
Put another way, you can have all the talent in the world, but if you're bagged in the third period, or not strong enough to stand up to a season of punishment, or can't win enough races to loose pucks, what the hell good are you?
I like what I'm seeing from Tarasenko. He could be that Kovalenko-style goal scorer that is really valuable (except hopefully more consistent and better overall). Would love to nab another pick and take him. 5'11" but already 202. Bet he can push that to 220 in which case he's a nightmare to get off the puck or in a corner.
ReplyDeleteLHFM that's exactly what I thought of Tarasenko when I read the descriptions as 'built' and 'like a fire hydrant'. First thing to mind was built like a tank, then Kovalenko.
ReplyDeleteMyself I'd be happy if the Oilers walk away with Seguin/Hall and Kabanov. I really think that if he's available at 31 you take a chance on him, guy is a top 10 level talent and worth the risk.
Seguin Kabanov Eberle
Gagner MPS Hemsky
Ah to dream.
"Put another way, you can have all the talent in the world, but if you're bagged in the third period, or not strong enough to stand up to a season of punishment, or can't win enough races to loose pucks, what the hell good are you?"
ReplyDeleteThere's also a thing such as being a gymnasium monster that can't produce squat outside of the gym. I remember when I used to take martial arts at this gym full of bodybuilders. Even they were twice our size they looked terrified of us(not me, I was just hiding in the crowd, lol).
On the whole, everyday folk are impressed by push up totals, or amounts of weight bench pressed - but given that hockey games at the highest level often end up in a close game tied or with a 1 goal difference in the 3rd period, the difference between a Crosby to a Horcoff is astronomical - given the fact that Crosby will keep his nerve no matter what, while good old Horc with all his fitness misses yet another glorious setup.
Given the morons running this franchise for the past decade, I'd say no to trying to do anything but the most obvious to everyone else thing.
ReplyDeleteTrading down to lose Parise, Jessee Niinniimaki, Alex Plante, wasting a pair of high picks for the chance to draft the probably impossible to sign Nash, plus all the humiliating offer sheets and UFA rejections more or less have left a lot of the hard core fans somewhat cynical.
hunter1909 - finding black clouds behind every silver lining since 2008!
Didn't Doughty show up to the combine out of shape?
ReplyDeleteOn the whole, everyday folk are impressed by push up totals, or amounts of weight bench pressed - but given that hockey games at the highest level often end up in a close game tied or with a 1 goal difference in the 3rd period, the difference between a Crosby to a Horcoff is astronomical - given the fact that Crosby will keep his nerve no matter what, while good old Horc with all his fitness misses yet another glorious setup.
ReplyDeleteSomeone clearly isn't aware of how ridiculously fit Crosby is. All McGuire joking aside, Crosby is a fucking beast. We just don't hear as much about it because he scores 100 points a season.
That being said, too much muscle, for example, is pointless. If you're not agile, as well as strong, you're also going to suffer, because you're carrying too much weight around, and because you're not going to be able to evade pressure as well, and because too much of the wrong muscle fibre type will impair your aerobic ability (musclemen are mostly fast-twitch, which is glycolytic, while marathon runners are mostly slow-twitch, which is oxidative). Look at what Crosby did to Jason Spezza in Game 2, going back and forth behind the net four or five times before finally evading him and feeding Goligoski. That's strength and agility in the service of outstanding raw skill and hockey sense.
Yvan Cournoyer and breakaways...
ReplyDeleteBefore the late 70s, when I got a real hate-on for the Habs, I was actually a fan of the Roadrunner. Partly for his nickname, and partly because of a game I saw on HNIC, must've been back in about 1973.
I can't remember who it was against, but on the first puck drop there was a short skirmish for possession, bringing the opposing D forward a bit. Cournoyer managed to corral it and was gone, like lightning, straight for the net, untouchable, uncatchable, a quick move and in an eyeblink, it was in the net. 9 seconds into the game! Which unbelievably wasn't a new record.
@speeds, nice link.
ReplyDeleteOh and thanks for all the memories, Rod! Gonna miss you. Bad.
ReplyDeleteFitness is very important. It's about maximising your skils, and greatly affects issues like turning, protecting the puck and boardplay.
ReplyDeleteJust by committing to the camps, i can tell you the difference between a Midget B player and a Midget AA can be fitness alone.
Oh and Dan Biega? Who's this guy? He's rocking the Brenchpress pushups and all the pure strenght section. And he's only 6''00. Looks like a guy with tree for legs.
I know it's not NHL age boys, but that's still a pretty big difference for those who played hockey, or follow junior hockey.
hunter... maybe they should just fold the fucking team up then.
ReplyDeleteFor every Brind'amour there's a Penner.
ReplyDeleteWhich Dustin Penner? The Dustin Penner of last year who showed up to camp in top shape and went on to put up a career year, or the Dustin Penner of two years ago who was called out for his conditioning, who could be seen to fade as games went on, and who had his worst year as a pro?
I wouldn't be surprised if Doughty did show up out of shape in his year. Is it just me or is he still sporting a double-chin?
ReplyDeleteSeeing a close-up of him on the bench with that chin after he makes a great play is kind of like watching Jim Furyk take off his hat to reveal a bald head after a round.
Just jarring
That reminds me; was Spacek sporting such a nice double chin when he played for Edmonton? As you say, it's jarring.
ReplyDelete@hunter1909:
ReplyDeleteGiven the morons running this franchise for the past decade, I'd say no to trying to do anything but the most obvious to everyone else thing.
So they're damned if they don't, and damned if they do? So you're saying that they shouldn't trade down, or up... and anybody they draft will probably be a bust...
I'm not arguing that the Oilers haven't made erred in their past, but I'm not convinced that every move they make will be a mistake either.
Doogie - Sorry if I came off as short with you. You were the one that challenged everyone with the comment about fitness being relevant. My answer is only up to a point - then the player is fit enough. All of your hypotheticals could be construed as not fit enough to play at this level.
ReplyDeleteLittle Fury - the Dustin Penner that finished last year was not that much different from the one the season before. He just did not have to lug all of his coach's baggage around last year, while having his ice-time screwed up.
Its all about perceptions - MacT saw Penner bad and said so and groupthink set in. Penner's numbers 2 seasons ago were solid no matter which line he played on. He was dominant on the ice. MacT did not care. Penner was the redheaded stepchild.
To me the Penner that started last season was a different beast, but reverted to form when Hemsky went down. Most of the increase in results came about because he was not being banished to the bottom of the roster or being set up to fail on the PK or getting torn to shreds in the press conferences.
Penner is who he is and not who MacT said he was.
Deano: That last line made me think of a cliché action movie replica. (Can we say replica as in a sentence said by an actor?).
ReplyDeleteJean Claude Van Damne, action goes into overtime, Sudden Death!
Little Fury - the Dustin Penner that finished last year was not that much different from the one the season before. He just did not have to lug all of his coach's baggage around last year, while having his ice-time screwed up.
ReplyDeleteHe also didn't have to lug around a lot of extra baggage round the midsection either. Look, Penner had conditioning problems in Anaheim as well. Hell, he clearly recognized he had conditioning problems, given that he went off and got his ass in shape during the off season. And it seems to me that improvements in physical conditioning would have a much greater bearing on on-ice results than anything happening between the ears. You could see the difference on the ice in the way his energy levels were higher and in the way he was able to maintain a physical edge.
Its all about perceptions - MacT saw Penner bad and said so and groupthink set in. Penner's numbers 2 seasons ago were solid no matter which line he played on. He was dominant on the ice. MacT did not care. Penner was the redheaded stepchild.
You don't think his coach's opinion and the difference in ice time can't be explained in part by his conditioning and his attitude towards it? Again, we're talking about a guy who was called out by two NHL coaches for his laziness and conditioning: where there's smoke...
To me the Penner that started last season was a different beast, but reverted to form when Hemsky went down. Most of the increase in results came about because he was not being banished to the bottom of the roster or being set up to fail on the PK or getting torn to shreds in the press conferences.
How often did Penner spend time at the bottom of the roster under Mac , really? As for being set up to fail on the PK, he averaged 35 seconds a night on the PK in MacT's last year and more than 1:15 per night under Quinn.
Penner is who he is and not who MacT said he was.
Or maybe he was who Mact said he was and now he's not?
To me the Penner that started last season was a different beast, but reverted to form when Hemsky went down. Most of the increase in results came about because he was not being banished to the bottom of the roster or being set up to fail on the PK or getting torn to shreds in the press conferences.
Penner is who he is and not who MacT said he was.
A general idea passed around the last few months has been that Hall has dominated based on his physical maturation, and that Seguin still has room to grow.
ReplyDeleteNot according to the combine. Seguin is the same height/weight, but appears to have more lean muscle mass than Hall.
There goes that idea.
Little Fury - Your premise is off. There was nothing wrong with Penner on the ice the season before last. All I saw were the crazy rantings of his lunatic asshole coach.
ReplyDeleteLet me give you a more in depth analysis in the form of Derek Zona's comprehensive write-up:
http://www.coppernblue.com/2009/8/26/1003249/an-amicus-brief-in-support-of
The sequence events that galls me the most is Mact riding Penner's ass for the first 20 games or so. Using him on the PK, not playing him on the first line. Until chewing him out publicly and sitting him out. When he is rotated back in, Penner magically starts to produce and MacT is a genius. What is not said is that Penner is now being used effectively, getting time with Horcoff and Hemsky and PP time. If MacT is such a effing genius, why wasn't he using Penner this way before he was sat out?
MacT manipulated the situation to fool the gullible into believing his narrative. You seem to have fallen for it.
Here are the top performers at the combine for whatever it's worth.
ReplyDeleteMost Top 3 Test Finishes
Danny Biega - 9
Stephen Johns - 6
Bill Arnold - 5
Nick Bjugstad - 5
Jarred Tinordi - 5
Emerson Etem - 4
Jacob Fallon - 4
John McFarland - 4
Most Top 10 Test Finishes
Danny Biega - 14
Nick Bjugstad - 13
Stephen Johns - 13
Emerson Etem - 11
Jarred Tinordi - 11
Charlie Coyle - 10
Brandon Gormley - 10
Jacob Fallon - 9
Bill Arnold - 8
Ryan Johansen - 8
The standout, Danny Biega, is interesting because he's exactly the player who would benefit from a strong combine performance. He's undersized for a defenceman and testing out as a top athlete probably gives teams more optimism about his NHL chances.
Little Fury - Your premise is off. There was nothing wrong with Penner on the ice the season before last. All I saw were the crazy rantings of his lunatic asshole coach.
ReplyDeleteWell since you are clearly approaching this from a rational and unbiased p.o.v....
Thing is, i never questioned Penner's performance: in fact, I was among those who defended it. However, there's simply no disputing the fact that Penner performed at another level this past season (I'd like to see someone do a comprehensive breakdown comparing this past season to his prior years) as reflected by his numbers not just from 08-09 season, but from his career up to that point.
MacT manipulated the situation to fool the gullible into believing his narrative. You seem to have fallen for it.
MacT was also apparently able to retroactively fool Randy Carlyle into benching Penner in his time with the Ducks. He even fooled Penner himself into taking on a rigorous off season training regimen that Penner credited in part for his play this past season. Such is the awesome power of MacT.
I am disputing that after Hemsky was injured, Penner performed at another level. For the rest of last season, I saw the same seemingly slow but effective Penner from the previous season. That is exactly my point. Penner's burst lasted until Hemsky went down. Save that period, Penner has been relatively constant as an Oiler. The difference is: this season there was no noise from the coach in the press, no healthy scratchings, no demotions to the 4th line or benchings to colour your perceptions.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't kicking out the jambs for most of last season, but he also wasn't bad the season before. Everyone is experiencing some mass hallucination inspired by MacT's rhetoric and the media coverage.
In 2006-07 Penner played 82 games for the Ducks - a full season. He was not benched. The previous season he played 19 games for the Ducks and 57 games for the Portland Pirates. It was his rookie year. He may have been benched, but he would not be the first rookie to be benched for any number of reasons. Please provide the corroborating quote/story about Carlyle calling Penner's work ethic out. I think this stuff is reaching urban legend status.
The single interview last season that I remember Penner discussing his 'rigorous off-season training regimen' was one with Scott Oake where he said that the major difference was that he drank less beer so he came in lighter.
I don't doubt that Penner was motivated to make MacT look bad, but when it comes to Penner, I think people are just making shit up to fit their beliefs.
Did you read Zona's whole piece about Penner's 2008-09 season?
I am disputing that after Hemsky was injured, Penner performed at another level.
ReplyDeleteWho made that claim?
Did you read Zona's whole piece about Penner's 2008-09 season?
And what does that have to do with last season?
Also, colour me surprised that in 2010, people are actually questioning whether better fitness is relevant.
ReplyDeleteI think you're misinterpreting my question.
I simply asked if whether Gagner posting superior scores to Voracek at a draft combine 3 years ago was an indicator of future preformance. Was it, or not?
In my humble opinion, I would say that the hype around the results of that particular combine were "much ado about nothing".
It obviously has *some* relevance, only an idiot would dispute that. How much is open to debate IMO.
Gretzky had a weird split on fitness testing. He would finish dead last on strength tests, but would score off the charts on cardio and aerobic and rapid recovery type stuff. He was just a different breed of cat.
ReplyDelete