This is Logan Couture at the doorstep of Aaron Sorochan's crease earlier in this AHL season. Couture graduated to pro hockey in the fall with pedigree (#9 overall pick in 2007) and a strong resume from junior (6th in goals scored in the OHL, 2008-09).
The Sharks are a deep team up front and chose to start Couture in the AHL this season. He's clearly one of the two or three best rookies in the league (second in rookie scoring but with a better points-per-game total than leader Tyler Ennis) and one would think Couture would have been called up earlier (he's played 14 NHL games so far this season) with a lesser team.
Steve Tambellini has gone to great lengths to protect Jordan Eberle from expectations, to the point where the organization appears to be leaning toward keeping him in the AHL for the rest of this season.
That's probably a bit much and at some point the smart money should be on a late season callup for Eberle. However, if the Oilers are serious about developing Eberle (and the other prospects) on some kind of slowed timeline we might expect him to start the 10-11 season in the minors ala Logan Couture.
My own feeling is that the Oilers won't be able to help themselves and that Hall/Seguin and Jordan Eberle will be in the opening night lineup come October 2010. This is, after all, not a new management team and a leopard doesn't change its spots.
The bigger question becomes when do you elevate a prospect to the show? When he's clearly ready (say 20 AHL games or coming off a mammoth junior/college/Euro season) or after he's served a predetermined amount of time in AAA (no matter his results)?
Earl Weaver is the de facto authority on such things. Earl wouldn't give starting pitchers a start until they'd pitched enough in the middle innings to get comfortable, and he platooned rookies to the point of distraction (unless they were Eddie Murray or Cal Ripken). But he brought them to the show as soon as they were ready.
I think Earl would tell us Jordan Eberle is ready for a cup of coffee.
Agreed LT. Would like to see him for the last part the season. Maybe start him on the road trip in St. Louis. That'll give him 8 games with the big club, and allows him to have 4 games on the road before he comes to Edmonton. Gives him a chance to get comfortable in the lineup without as much media presence. And after th Oil season is done he can go back down and play the last 3 games for the Falcons, or go to the World's (as rumoured earlier)
ReplyDeleteIf Eberle gets a cup of coffee this spring, I am more concerned with his linemates as opposed to which games he gets (I am assuming that he'll get between 5 and 8, as this gives enough of an opportunity but doesn't eat a season of RFA).
ReplyDeleteThe last thing I want to see is Eberle on the four line with Zorg! I would like to see 89-Eberle-16/12 get at least a game together (hopefully against soft minutes). If there is a blow out, I would hope they pair Eberle with Horcov and see if he can handle some of the big men (and to how him what he needs to improve on).
As for the World's, I love to see him go but I don't think it is happening (with the number of talented NHLers not in the playoffs). If he does it is Hockey Canada doing a favour to the Oilers.
I've said it already this week, but a smart team would carry 8 NHL defencemen and a 13th forward.
ReplyDeleteThe impact on the game of an AHL defenceman has to be significantly greater than the impact of throwing an AHL forward onto the 4th line.
Oh, this is the Eberle topic, not the Peckham topic. Oops.
ReplyDeleteWould not mind seeing Eberle in the last couple of games after the AHL season ends. I just think you want to give the kid the time to master each level and build his confidence and not send him to the dogs.
ReplyDeleteBut, as BCB says a big part of this will also be who he's paired with.
Right now we have Gagner on the 4th line w/Zorg (which is a waste). Is Eberle going to come in with that group and replace Zorg? Then who's going to protect the smurfs?
Can't see him going on the 3rd line (checking line) and if you put him on the top line then what happen's to Brule? Put him on the 2nd line w/Pouliot? Can he face that level and do well?
Perhaps that's another reason Tambellini is adament he stays in Springfield til the end of that season - they're still evaluating other guys and want to see who's worth another contract or who can bring some value on the trade market.
@BCB
ReplyDeleteIf Eberle plays in the big show at all, look for him to play with Penner. I will not be surprised if gagner is centering the line.
As for eberle playing in the Nhl, i am not so sure. Tambo sounded definitive. Unless he goes onto destroy AHL at pace more than 1.5 ppg from now on, that is after the 3 games he has already played, there is no need to put him on this team.
I still think the best option is to let Eberle decide where he should play depending on what he does in training camp. If he plays himself onto the team and into a position where he can get useful icetime then let him take it.
ReplyDeleteHere's the time spent in the minors by the top 30 scoring forwards in the NHL this season(Not including end-of-season callups). If Eberle does start the season in the NHL, I don't think it'll hurt him.
233 - Tomas Plekanec (1/3 during lockout)
141 - Martin St. Louis
111 - Ryan Kesler (Majority during lockout)
95 - Loui Eriksson
73 - Zach Parise (All during lockout)
67 - Mikko Koivu (All during lockout)
36 - Nik Antropov
19 - Corey Perry
17 - Ryan Getzlaf
4 - Alexander Semin
0 - Other 20 Players
Earl Weaver's Baseball.... I remember playing that at a friends on his old computer. The best part was getting tossed for arguing balls and strikes!
ReplyDeleteAs for Eberle... you can't hold a good man down. If he keeps putting up points in the AHL how do you deny him the opportunity to showcase what he has in the show. It's not just about development but further down the road when it's time to talk contract people remember how they are handled.
If there isn't a legitimate reason to keep him from playing with the Oilers then you bring him up. Continued evaluation of current players isn't a good reason in my book. You've seen all of these guys for most of the year and some of them longer. If you don't know who deserves to stay and who goes by now you shouldn't have a job in the NHL.
I would say he gets at least a couple more games in the A to see if he can sustain his play. I think it's a stretch to say his production at that level thus far is a fluke. 12 games played 15 points. What would be the NHL equivalent to that?
The kid looked dangerous in pre-season, dominated the WHL and now seems to already be up to AHL speed. I know the next step is the biggest but it seems silly to hold him back.
From the box sheets Daum looks to be putting Eberle in a position to succeed. His linemates seem to be Wiseman and Linglet, both of whom are at or near a point-per-game, 28 year old 6.01' and 27 year old 6.02' AHL veterans north of 200lbs. From the scoresheet Dean Arsene also seems to be on the ice a lot when Eberle is.
ReplyDeleteNot taking anything away from Eberle's obvious ability and skill, but his line mates have a lot to do with his early success. With that sort of supportive cast I would rather Eberle spend next season in the AHL until he tears the doors off the hinges for a sustained period of time (20 games at least).
If they bring him up to the NHL for a cup of coffee, he damn well better be treated the same way with 2 capable vets, at least one with some size, and a decent defense pairing behind him. Penner would be the obvious choice with ideally Horcoff as his centre but more likely like SumOil said it will be Gagner.
I also wouldn't mind seeing Eberle with 2 Pisani types to play with, which will give him some chance to showcase offensively while teaching him the finer points of the game that don't come as naturally to him, but we don't even have 1 Pisani type on the roster as is =(.
I think Earl would tell us Jordan Eberle is ready for a cup of coffee.
ReplyDeleteEarl would just have him as a September callup once the minor league season ends. That seems like an easy call for J.Eb. this year.
The tough call is what you do with him next year.
The ideal would be sign a veteran on a 1 year deal (or even keep someone like Nilsson or Comrie). Keep Eberle in AAA until the trade deadline. Trade veteran. Bring up Eberle.
Looks like Springfield doesn't play again until Friday, when they get another 3-in-3. My bet is Eberle plays those three, and as long as he continues to produce even at a PPG pace, he gets called up.
ReplyDeleteOilers play Detroit the following Tuesday, so he'd get a day to practice with the big club and then get to the play the last 7, only 2 of which are at home. If they want to do it low pressure that seems like the best bet.
Eberle has already played more minor league games than Mike Comrie, Ales Hemsky, Andrew Cogliano, or Sam Gagner, each of whom never played a game in the minors (at least, not yet). Other than Comrie who was a celebrated mid-season signing, the others made the big team right out of camp. Hemsky spent a little time in the PB, the other guys just started to play as soon as they got here.
ReplyDeleteThese AHL games Eberle is getting at the tag end of two seasons are a bonus in a sense (although a nice playoff run in juniors wouldn't have been a bad thing either). If he plays out the string in SF he'll be up to something like 23 games, which is close to the 26-game apprenticeship that Shawn Horcoff got in the A. The good ones don't stay down for long.
I fully expect Jordan Eberle to be an Oiler right out of camp next year ... on merit.
Doesn't context play some role here, both the player involved and the team need.
ReplyDeleteA player who is mentally fragile should be left down. A player who is mentally tough may benefit from the challenge.
A team with great leadership might be a good place to mentor a young guy. A team with Ethan Moreau...
then with all of the expectations of the world on their shoulders they eventually hit the wall and fuck up and bust.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about the world, but he threw all of Canada on his shoulders at the last two WJCs and seemed to handle it ok.
Bruce: agreed. Eberle has nothing left to prove outside the NHL. His performance at WJC, coming up big in pressure situations. He has played (albeit in a small smaple size) at a PPG pace in the AHL. He performed well in pre season and may have made the team last year if we hadn't had a million smurfs with one way NHL deals. At this point can who would you consider better then him on the wing?
ReplyDelete- Hemsky
- Penner
- Brule (maybe)
- ? Would you take o'Sullivan or nilsson over Eberle? Our team lacks timely goals and opportunistic players. the reason a player like Comrie is valuable is his ability to be in the right place at the right time. eberle seems to have the same knack, and it sould not be overlooked that he is the bigger then most of our smurfs. yes he's sub 6 feet, but at 5'11 and 180 lbs he's the same size as Gagner and O'Sullivan, bigger then Nilsson, Comrie and Cogliano. he may not be stronger then some of them, but he is not the same level of smurf as some of our players, he's cheap cap wise and it makes absolutely no sense to keep him in the minors next year barring a horrible camp.
Eberle needs to play nine games this year. They're completely free... and as every idiot announcer is so fond of saying, they're pressureless games. If he went ten games in a row in the AHL without a point, I'd still say call him up for nine because there's no good reason against it.
ReplyDeleteNext year, I think you need to go in with the belief that Eberle needs to play one of the de facto top nine forwards off the team. He's not a bottom of the roster skillset and that's not a particularly tough mountain to climb.
If he has a bad camp, there's no negative to shipping him to the AHL and letting him tear the cover off the ball by giving him twenty minutes a game in every facet. Making him the guy in Oklahoma would be just as useful a learning experience as getting knocked around in the NHL. There's really no need to rush it.
Eberle is not only picking up points down in Springfield but so is the team.
ReplyDeleteChicken, Egg?
Daum appears to have stuck him with a couple of decent players (no small feat, given that most of their players are with the big club)
It is fun to watch Ebs progress and great fodder for blogs and media.
The two best things about this season are wondering about the draft and whether Ebs will get with the big club before the end of the season.
I don't understand how anyone could say that there's be pressure on Eberle if he's called up. His team is not playing for anything, and anything that he could do on the scoresheet would merely provide some bonus entertainment after the worst season ever.
ReplyDeleteIf they stick him with Penner I could get on board with it. Maybe Pouliot as the centre, he seems unlikely to be a douchebag.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't want him anywhere near TheCaptain.
Hopefully the next group of prospects gets developed - otherwise all we're going to be cheering on is Lowe's annual UFA summertime knock a door ginger act.
ReplyDeletesummertime knock a door ginger act
ReplyDeleteI know all those words, but that sentence doesn't make sense.
We might be looking at this the wrong way. They might not be as concerned about Eberle wilting under the pressure (two WJC's suggest he won't) or being not being physically ready (his two brief stints in the AHL suggest he can play with men). I think they're worried about him having a sense of entitlement just because he's a top prospect.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that the organisation has looked a what went wrong with the development of Cogliano in particular and decided that they may have made it too easy for him and consequently he hasn't been as willing to listen to his coaches and/and or vets who tried to help him improve his game as perhaps he should be.
This might be about making Eberle as hungry and willing to learn as possible before he finally makes the show.
uni, Wiseman and Linglet may be PPG guys in the AHL, but obviously they aren't NHL top 6-ers if they aren't good enough for a spot on the 30th place team in the league. (I realize they are on minor league deals - I more mean that they are just like many other career minor league stars)
ReplyDeleteObviously Eberle needs to play with skill players with the bug club as well, but really, as long as he isn't out there with thecaptainethanmoreau or Stortini is it that much of a downgrade?
Wouldn't be surprised if you saw him with Pisani and either Gagner or Potulny.
Does anybody know how many contracts we currently sit at?
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why Tambellini hasn't been active in the NCAA free agent market.
A couple prospects like Erik Gustafsson, Blair Riley, Bobby Butler and Ben Scrivens would go a long way in rebuilding our AHL team and that's all Tambellini has been talking about lately.
Instead we watch the usual suspects grab the free assets while we clamor over the club having minimal depth.
Marc, thank you - you took the words straight out of my mouth. You look at the buzz being generated around him with the WJHC's, now this successful AHL run.. Surely, he's spent his entire career as one of the most dominant players on the ice - what happens when he steps out onto an NHL rink and he's no longer performing to his (and our) expectations? He gets frustrated, he falters, we have to start this whole process over again. No thanks. Let him stay in the AHL.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading somewhere how Messier and Gretzky spent a year in the AHL, but back then it was called the WHA.
ReplyDelete"I suspect that the organisation has looked a what went wrong with the development of Cogliano in particular and decided that they may have made it too easy for him.."
ReplyDeleteHuh?
How did the club make things too easy for him? Zero PP time and he's been chained to Moreau for the past 1.5 years and Stortini close to a year.
More like the club gave him zero chance at succeeding. Is it just a coincidence that Cogliano is all the sudden putting up numbers now that he's playing with real NHLers?
You can point the finger at Cogliano for sulking and not buying in but only a loser organization would put Cogliano in that position in the first place.
How did the club make things too easy for him? Zero PP time and he's been chained to Moreau for the past 1.5 years and Stortini close to a year.
ReplyDeleteYeah, because he insists he wants to play centre. It's been reported more than once that he isn't interested in switching to the wing. If he wasn't so stubborn about giving it a try, he likely would have been in the top-9 the whole time.
I don't understand why Tambellini hasn't been active in the NCAA free agent market.
ReplyDeleteI recognise all those words, but that sentence doesn't make sense to me. ;)
Seriously, are you surprised that Captain Dithers has not done anything productive to improve the club? That's his MO.
Plus, his cell-phone (with Buzz Lightyear on it) has died.
I was a big supporter in keeping Eberle in the AHL for the start of next year... but with the way he's tearing the cover off the ball, it's going to be hard to do that.
ReplyDeleteHe's now got 15 points in 12 games (6 of them goals) and is a -2 over 2 years on 2 shitty teams. His shooting % is probably unsustainable (just 27 shots, 22.2%).
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ReplyDeleteWell, the big thing is, stick to the plan.
ReplyDeleteYou can go both ways; the Habs made a decision with PK Subban (who is tearing a new one to every single team up against the 'dogs ever since late November), two games cup of coffee of ultra sheltered icetime, but otherwise stay down there and dominate. Next year, they'll trade or dump one of those LH D and make a nice spot for him somewhere on the backend and he'll be on the first PP unit, on Markov's right flank.
The kid is a ROY candidate in 10-11, book it.
They also made another decision with Latendresse a few years ago: they saw the big kid as too strong for the Q, so they brought him straight up, gave him a few thousand minutes of icetime in the bottom-6 where, over 3 seasons, he potted 40+ ESGoals over 3 seasons. Nice. But they traded the big oaf to Minny for Pouliot, who's been nice (when not hurt) but who I'm pretty darn sure we could've had for somebody else and or picks. Anyhow, now that he actually has had his 1000+AB in the majors and doesn't have to drag Lapierre and Kostopoulos around, gee, looks like the kid can score!
Stick to the plan and don't trade the kid until he's arbitration elligible. That's my take.
The cup of coffee is a pretty good idea at this point, it lets the kid see how fast the game is up there without teh pressure of acheiving anything. Just make sure Pronger isn't on the other team (Subban barely escaped a very, very nice charge from behind by CFP while standing 5 feets from the board).
I don't have a strong opinion on where the kid should finish the season but Nicholas pretty much mirrored my thoughts: the kid does the three-in-three this weekend for SF and that's the last he sees of the AHL for this year.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Bruce that Eberle makes the team honestly next year; and especially if MPS stays in Sweden. You hear some of the talk about how the kid isn't a great skater and doesn't have a big shot but then the young fucker's always in the right place and he's always scoring and that makes him sound like a fellow who was a shitty skater and had to go to Det and play as a 4th liner in order to win the Cup.
13's putting on a charge as the year ends and that might change where they see him in the order come 2011 but I doubt either of 12 or 19 are back so we don't have skill falling out of our ass and Eberle just seems like a quick study.
So, which one is it, LT?
ReplyDeleteYou wanted Eberle to sit in Springfield and "rip the cover off the ball," and now you think he's ready to step into the lineup? He's played 12 AHL games and your opinion changed that quickly?
Granted, his 6 G and 15 PTS in those 12 games overall are impressive, but weren't you urging caution and patience with developing prospects? You just called this management team a "leopard who can't change its spots" who somehow can't help themselves into bringing Eberle up, and now you're advocating such a move?
Again, you've lost me on what your analysis of the situation is here. Do you want to see him in the show or not? Do you think he should be there? Do you like movies about gladiators?
The fans are fickle GSC. You don't expect them to be rational all the time. :)
ReplyDeleteYou wanted Eberle to sit in Springfield and "rip the cover off the ball," and now you think he's ready to step into the lineup? He's played 12 AHL games and your opinion changed that quickly?
ReplyDeleteYou missed the cup of coffee part.
Give him his cup of coffee for the last bit of the NHL season... no reason not to, and we may as well see what he can do.
ReplyDeleteNo real reason to worry about the Oilers losing any more at this season... even if we went 10-0 the rest of the way, we'd just need:
NYR: 1-8-1.
CBJ: 2-8
FLA: 2-8-1
Carolina: 3-7
NYI: 3-7
Tampa: 3-7
Toronto: 5-5
It was a long shitty year, but we'll finish last and have a 50/50 shot at 1st OV. It'd be nice to end the year on a bit of a positive (Horcoff, Cogliano, Gagner, Penner, Brule are all having nice finishes, for example...) note.
The draft can't come quickly enough so we can see just what this team is trying to do....
There's this second season thingy coming up that Oiler fans never get to enjoy, apparently it's a pretty big deal..
This perennial "great finish" has started to wear thin.
ReplyDeletePlayers who shit the bed all season long, who all of a sudden can play once the pressure is off.
I don't know Ethan Moreau. I hear what he says to the media, and I see what he does on the ice. But what I see and hear indicate a man who is not honest with himself. A man who lacks character. A man who exudes entitlement. A man who no longer plays hockey very well (whether related to his eye injury or not), and certainly does not come off as a team player.
ReplyDeleteHe is not a man I want Eberle anywhere near, except as an exmaple of what not to do.
If Ethan is on the team, I keep Eberle in the Minors until he is no longer an Oiler.
Take into consideration his opportunity to play more minutes in the AHL, and slowly acclimatize to playing against men. ANd when I say acclimatize, I'm not just talking about for 20 games when most are already worn out and he's got some spring in his step, I'm talking about a full season with heavy minutes playing against guys who are 6'2" and weigh 220lbs night in and night out.
There is a big difference in being ready to play in the NHL skill-wise and being physically ready and mentally ready to deal with that every day.
Planning for him to be on the Oilers is fool-hardy. Let him be an all-star in the A for year. Besides, the Oilers are likely to suck again anyways - why not give the folks down in OKC something to cheer about?
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=315055
ReplyDeleteOilers looking to get into the top 10 and anyone not named Eberle in play?
Arsene recalled.
ReplyDeleteGood luck Mr. Daum
I can't say I like the prospect of making anyone avaialble, but at the same time, if we do trade some of our roster players it means we suck more next year too...
ReplyDeleteAdam Larsson... oooo....aaaaaahh...
PDO
ReplyDeleteKevin Paul Dupont of the Boston Globe said they made a big push for Toronto's pick at the deadline:
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/articles/2010/03/21/onus_is_smack_dab_on_players/?page=4
And Matty was speculating yesterday that they should go for both Hall and Seguin if Boston has the other pick.
I would think (hope) that Gagner and MPS, in addition to Eberle are off limits. And having moved Vish and Grebs already, I doubt Gilbert or Whitney is on offer. They should at least listen to offers on anyone else though.
I doubt Gilbert or Whitney is on offer. They should at least listen to offers on anyone else though.
ReplyDeleteI would leave Gilbert on that list too (Whitney is too expensive for the B's). There really is no price too high for a move to get 1-2 in the draft.
The downside is it makes Tambellini look good as a GM, which he patently is not.
God help us, we really are going to trade Hemsky for a chance to draft Pat Falloon.
ReplyDeleteAnd Matty was speculating yesterday that they should go for both Hall and Seguin if Boston has the other pick.
ReplyDeleteMatty spends entirely too much time reading the blogs.
This one's a pipe dream. If Boston was going to move that pick, they would have done it at the deadline.
This one's a pipe dream. If Boston was going to move that pick, they would have done it at the deadline.
ReplyDeleteThe way he worded his article, that was the first I thought of too. But I like to get caught up in the hysteria. It makes me feel like a kid again :)
Schitzo
ReplyDeleteLook on the bright side. We could be trading Hemsky for Lindros because we're planning to take Pat Faloon with our pick. :)
This one's a pipe dream. If Boston was going to move that pick, they would have done it at the deadline.
ReplyDeleteI don't know Bruce. At the deadline the placement of that pick is still uncertain. Boston could get more for the gauranteed #2 overall at the draft than the possible #5 overall at the deadline.
This one's a pipe dream. If Boston was going to move that pick, they would have done it at the deadline.
ReplyDeleteI don't think its that simple. For example, why would Boston trade for an injured Hemsky at the deadline? He would be a lot more attractive at the draft - especially if they make a bit of a run in the playoffs. Also, they may not have been able to make room for a Penner (or someone) at the deadline. Again, they can move some $$ in the summer by not resigning FA, doing a buyout etc.
It still seems unlikely but I think the odds are better at the draft than at the deadline.
God help us, we really are going to trade Hemsky for a chance to draft Pat Falloon.
ReplyDeleteor trade Hemsky to get a chance to draft ... Hemsky
On hemsky: looks like he's practicing again (as per http://www.coppernblue.com/). Fun times. Dear lord do not let him play this year, let the damn shoulder get fully healthy. Although I could just see them thinking that it is a great idea to dress their top lineup to play the last few games so they really know what they have next year.
ReplyDeleteSchitzo said...
ReplyDeletesummertime knock a door ginger act
I know all those words, but that sentence doesn't make sense.
Oh come on, Schitzo, don't play dumb. You're the most shameless knock a door ginger act I've ever seen on the internet.
.
Did I use that phrase properly, Hunter? And also, can I have a dram of whatever you're taking. :D
On Eberle, I suspect that it is a gven that he starts next year with the big team. When good players are left in the minors as 20 year olds they kick ass (Demitra, Fleury, Savard, Stillman, Ryan, etc.) ... but Oiler fans need something to cheer for, for crying out loud.
ReplyDeleteThey may as well bring him up at he end of the yearas well ... let's him know what he's up against for next year, let's the coaching staff get a good look as well, and hopefully they will recognize the things he needs to work on as a priority during the off season.
Oh come on, Schitzo, don't play dumb. You're the most shameless knock a door ginger act I've ever seen on the internet.
ReplyDelete:(
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteschitzo:
ReplyDeleteIn case I wasn't clear, I have no freaking idea what "knock a door ginger" means.
Wow, that many people not only never played Knock-a-Door-Ginger as a kid, but have no idea what it is? How about Knock-Knock-Ginger? Does that help?
ReplyDeleteSo here we are debating whether to play our rookie phenom or shelter him, openly speculating about trading our best player for a shot at uncertainty. We say we need something to cheer about. Each of us, in their own way, is playing back seat GM, and growing more desperate with each game.
ReplyDeleteI can't help wondering if the Oilers supposed brain trust listened to us would it make any difference? Can you actually set out to create, using only logic and reason, a great team? I believe we are all trying (along with Oilers management) to think of a way to make the Oilers great again. Yet history would tell us it doesn't work that way.
The greatest turnaround in sports history involved a team that had finished dead last nine out of ten seasons and kept getting worse. I am of course referring to the New York Knicks. Being obviously terrible at drafting they signed a failed coach with no scouting experience to be their Chief Scout, not logically designed to make you better. His name was Red Holzman.
Holzman preceded with his first ever pick, the first pick over all in 1964, to take Jim Barnes. Think Pat Faloon. Then magically every other GM and scout made the exact same mistake, ignoring the future Hall of Famer and so next round Holzman took Willis Reed.
Yet nobody, not even Holzman realized the dominoes had begun to fall. The ownership tried everything as the years of futility rolled on. They fired GMs, coaches, even the trainers. Nothing helped and yet the dominoes kept falling.
The next year for example, the still terrible Knicks with Holzman at the scouting helm took a nerd who ran off to be a Rhodes Scholar in London where he famously hung out with the Beatles. Knicks fans screamed, think of all the unkind things we have said about Riley Nash and multiply by ten and do it all with typical New York passion and you get an idea of the abuse heaped on Bill Bradley (Hall of Famer #2).
Meanwhile at Holzman's suggestion a soon to be fired GM had traded for a spent force, Dick Barnett, and got a player to shelter young Mr. Reed from the toughs, (Walt Bellamy). Bellamy became an instant darling with the fans and media, so what did the Knicks do, they traded him for the far less impressive Dave Debusschere (Hall of Famer #3). In the last draft Holzman controlled (he was now the coach - apparently nobody else wanted the job) the Knicks went off the board twice taking the space cadet (Walt Fraser - Hall of Famer #4) of who one writer said, "if clothes make the man then Clyde the Glide is a psychedelic pimp." The Knicks second choice that year was even stranger, a gangly pot smoking, LSD dropping, zen quoting, poetry writing, peacenik hippie named Phil Jackson (Hall of Famer #5).
Nobody could have predicted that those six guys, Reed, Bradley, Barnett, Debusschere, Fraser, and Jackson would be the core of the greatest defensive team basketball has ever seen. No-one has ever even been able to think of a neat name for the game the Knicks played. Amongst themselves they just called it "the open man." You could only play it if you had a team of incredibly bright, utterly insane, self-sacrificing team 1st players. And Holzman himself has said he had no idea that was what he was building.
So my point is the fans howled, the train wreck appeared to have no end in sight, and managment had not a clue what they were doing, yet five years later the Knicks changed their sport for all time. Might the dominoes be following even as we type ever more negative missives about the Oilers?
Come on, think about it, would you have predicted a backgammon game would change hockey forever? If not, how sure are you that you're right that the sky is falling? Is it possible the Oilers have already drafted their Reed and Bradley, acquired their Barnett, traded for their Debusschere? Are they about to draft Fraser and Jackson? Are the final pieces of future greatness about to fall into place while we are convinced Rome is burning and that the arsonist is our team captain?
Vic: I know, don't worry.
ReplyDeletespOIler: Come on, don't make me google it. What the hell are you guys talking about?
I'm not convinced bringing him up is the correct call.
ReplyDeleteHe has had 12 AHL games. If you bring him up for a cup of coffee and he does well for a short spurt, you risk placing him in a position where sending him down next year becomes a non-starter. Recall when Sam Gagner came in at 18, had some nice games, and made the big club? I think it would have been better for his development (and contract status!) to dominate competition for a while, especially if the AHL for a year/half year was an option.
If you keep him down for half a season and tell him to work on a few things in particular, he'll have the opportunity to do so against a level of competition he has barely faced yet - and succeed. He'll have far fewer such situations at the NHL level, and he'll be much frustrated finding his game against elite competition.
The AHL is a very good league. He'll face plenty of challenges in OK. Let him earn his NHL spot the hard way and I think he is the better for it in the long run. At the very least, I don't think there is any harm in taking it slow, whereas there are such dangers if you bring him up too early.
Schitzo...
ReplyDeleteBasically, you run along the street knocking on as many doors as possible to see how many neighbours actually come out. Game has been around for eons, has several variations including leaving behind a bag of poop, and has been in a few movies and TV ads.
Basically, you run along the street knocking on as many doors as possible to see how many neighbours actually come out.
ReplyDeleteOk, this I've heard of. But where do gingers come into the picture?
(Other than what you'll get beaten like when your parents catch you)
Was popular when we were kids, like Tag and Red Rover and Bloody Murder... but then again, "Pong" was the only video game in existence and I'm pretty sure I was in Gr 8 or 9 by the time I actually played one. TRS-80's were fun too.
ReplyDeleteDunno about the Gingers, Schitzo, but the game has other names like "Ding Dong Ditch". Maybe gingerly??
ReplyDeleteI'll be damned, it's a real thing.
ReplyDeleteKick the Can and British Bulldog were big neighbourhood games when I was a kid.
I think we were the first in the neighbourhood to get Coleco as well, it was a triangular console with pong on one side, a steering wheel/gearshift on another, and a gun on the other.
The graphics were the shits, but the the games were the bomb. I'll have to try and get a hold of one of those, my daughter would love it.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/angry-video-screwattack/62615
ReplyDeleteFor you Vic. A little go trough every pong console. Yours is featured as one of the best.
We called it Ding Dong Ditch or Nicky Nicky Nine Doors.
ReplyDeletelinnaeus:
Love the Knicks take. Sometimes it's nice to give yourself a few minutes a day to imagine the Oilers if everything is going/goes right. But spend too much time looking through rose-coloured lenses and the real world starts looking that much bleaker...
But I'll be damned if your comment didn't send a couple shivers down my spine.
Anyone remember Commander Keen? My son got me hooked on that game when he was little.
ReplyDeleteIn Scotland that game is called
ReplyDeleteChap Door Run
In the UK any reference to gingers
is an offshoot of Cockney slang
Ginger Beer meaning queer (gay)
You drop the first word hence Beer/Queer
If something is considered Pony
Pony and Trap gives you crap
Apples and Pairs
Up the apples means .....up the stairs.
Here endeth the lesson
Ding dong ginger what now? You guys played weird games. I think you have plenty of reasons to resent your youth, parents, and community.
ReplyDeleteI remember games like digging a hole, running around in circles, and pretending to shoot things. The we got an Intellivision and that just changed everything for the better.
Oh. And i still have my Genesis with NHL94 and World Series Baseball 95' downstairs.
ReplyDelete''At bat for the Expos, number 59''
(Purely random number)
Following the "give him a cup of coffee" metaphor. Does too much coffee at a young age stunt the growth of young players?
ReplyDeleteI keep hearing that players develop better in the AHL, that coming up to the NHL too early spoils players. Is there any hard evidence for this or is it just anecdotes about Brule. I'm asking seriously, and I assume if anyone knows, one of you knows.
Of course, I get that there is an advantage keeping guys down in the AHL in that it prolongs RFA status.
Sounds like three-step-nick-knocking. Or another game (of whose name I'm uncertain of) wher eyou knock on a stranger's door and have to keep them at the door for as long as possible before they either close it on your face or call the police.
ReplyDeletePat Faloon: I had to look him up. But am I missing something? Do we have some reason to believe that either Hall or Seguin are likely to turn out to be an epic bust? Or is it more an issue of "a bird in the hand is worth two on the wing" thinking?
Sometimes it's nice to give yourself a few minutes a day to imagine the Oilers if everything is going/goes right.
ReplyDeleteEasy to imagine when you've got history to draw on.
Either pop "Boys on the Bus" into the DVD player or pull up HockeyDB and look at the 1979-1981 entry drafts - what the Knicks did was almost as impressive as scooping no less than five Hall of Famers (Messier and Anderson in 1979, Coffey and Kurri in 1980, and Fuhr in 1981), plus two other perennial All-Star game selections (Lowe in 79 and Moog in 80). Heck, they also chose Steve Smith, who played in the 1991 All-Star game and Canada Cup.
Some people accuse Oiler fans of living in the past, which is valid criticism in some cases (1984 has no bearing on 2010, in my mind). But I'll gladly take having a past to fondly reflect on to the alternative, that's for sure.
Maybe Gagner, Eberle, MPS, one of Hall/Seguin, and perhaps (God willing) Adam Larsson are the start of something special. We can only hope.
Pat Faloon: I had to look him up. But am I missing something? Do we have some reason to believe that either Hall or Seguin are likely to turn out to be an epic bust? Or is it more an issue of "a bird in the hand is worth two on the wing" thinking?
ReplyDeleteThe latter. No matter how smart we think we are, it's entirely possible that one of those two ends up busting.
They both look like sure things right now, but so did Falloon. And Daigle. And Patrick Stefan.
LT - Commander Keen was the foundation of my childhood. That's not hyperbole. When I was quite young (grade 2, I'm thinking) I would draw the yellow slugs from Keen 4 and their poison urine. That elicited a pretty funny response from the teacher, as I recall.
ReplyDeleteI still download them every year and play through the whole series start to finish. If only games were as creative and fun nowadays.
Biplanes (part of Triple Action) on Intellivision was The Bomb. For years after it was discontinued, my buds and I would scour Pawn Shops for used copies, rejecting everything Colecovision, PS, Sega, Nintendo along the way.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Schitzo.
ReplyDeleteI can't help but think though, that some level or risk-taking at this point is worth it. Without injuries, I don't think this team is bad enough to finish in the lottery again next year. Losing a star player would help us to tank again next year, which I believe could be key to a genuine and full-blown rebuild.
After all this time, I can only hope that the team isn't rebuilding to be a decent team that can make the playoffs, as opposed to being a serious cup contender. And that's going to take more than one top draft pick this year. The top two this year and a top two pick next... now you're talking.
I think we as fans suffer from (to use another cliché), being once bitten, twice shy. It seems that in recent years, when we have lost major players (Smith, Pronger, etc), we've walked away with precious little to show for it and are hesitant to throw away even more talent for an uncertain return. I say the time for caution is over. We've started a full-blown rebuild: the worst we can do now is get cold feet and half-ass it.
Man, the Oilers are in full-on panic mode right now. Not only are they doing lunches for season ticket holders, I just got invited as a member of the waiting list.
ReplyDeleteShould I ask Tambellini what kind of diligence they did before they signed Khabibulin?
Sigh, OTC was rambling on about which goalie to start in the Edmonton Journal today.
ReplyDeleteIts not funny anymore.
Schitzo:
ReplyDeleteCouple other Khabibulin questions:
Who were you bidding against that he needed a 4 year offer on July 1st - was there a risk that he was going to be signed by another team that day?
Why 4 years for a 35+ player who had some injury problems in the recent past?
What made him a vastly better option to Biron or Anderson. etc, in the mind of EDM's management? I'm assuming they thought he was "vastly" better since they gave him way more money and term than the other 2 received, and since they took the 35+ risk with Khabi that wasn't there with the other 2.
I was the king of Astrosmash on Intellevision (and football).
ReplyDeleteI presume you all know about emulators. You also know that you can download a package with pretty much every intellevision game ever made to play on your computer.
No disk, but...
Also, for those of you remembering how awesome those games were here is the GTA release for Intellevision¡
Linnaeus: Either that or they're the Clippers =).
ReplyDeleteLT: Commander Keen is an awesome platformer. I have all the Keen games ever made myself on one of my hard drives somewhere.
Got hooked on Keen Dreams myself as a kid, if you haven't played it you should look it up.
John Carmack is just awe inspiring.
speeds: I'll see if the opportunity comes up. I expect that I'll get cut off if I start down that line of questioning, but hey. Worth a shot.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking of going and asking "ownership and management has been talking about how they are following the Chicago model. At exactly what point was this made a clear direction by management?"
ReplyDeleteThen follow up with a question about a move that was the polar opposite of following the Chicago model that was made after whatever date or range of dates they give.
They will fumble with an answer ignore any real question then move on to the next one.
I'm so fucking old I thought kris was referring to a TV when he said Intellivision. Cause I used to always play the digging a hole a game and the running in cricles game until we got more than two channels.
ReplyDeleteThe word "game" was invented when I was 9.
ReplyDeleteMy first toy was a ball in a cup, followed soonafter by a hula-hoop and then something called a superball. It was made of such incredible rubber that if you threw it on the ground it went so high you couldn't see it and the ball was lost forever.
ReplyDeleteOld people got screwed.
Anyone remember Commander Keen? My son got me hooked on that game when he was little.
ReplyDeleteI never played much Commander Keen: I was more into id's "later" stuff, like Wolfenstein 3D, Spear of Destiny, and Doom. I also played more TIE Fighter than was probably healthy when I was seven. (And more Duke Nukem 3D than I should ever have been allowed. Oh, the early 90s. Such an innocent time.) I think my uncle had a 2600 that I played a ton of Combat on when I used to visit, too.
I was a big fan of Capture the Flag, actually, too. On the playground, I mean. I was never the fastest kid, though, so I spent a lot of time in prison. Still, most summer days (and well into the evening) it was either ball hockey, with the little red, white, and blue rubber balls, or baseball. We lived in this giant cul-de-sac with a big green area in the middle of it, so there was more than enough room for us to set up four bases, and man could those little yellow tennis balls fly. Only time I ever hit anything worth a damn.
Whoop, Hitmen finally woke up. 6-3 early in the third on a pair of quick ones, and Bosch has been evacuated from the Warriors net. 'Bout damned time; I was beginning to worry.
I remember going over to my buddies house to play Commander Keen. He had a sweet "Turbo" button on the pc tower to send it into overdrive. I think it just turned the fan on.
ReplyDeleteAlso, NHL 94 for the Genesis is still the all time best hockey video game of all time.
Bookie,
ReplyDeleteIt's not the same w/out the old controllers and the overlays. My brother and I got an old Intellivision and tried to make it run, but with mixed results.
And you can never go back. Same thing with digging a hole or running in circles: you can still play, but it just doesn't have the same magic.
Hey Doogie, you can find a lot of old games on Steam now. If you're really old school or just cheap like me you'll just download DosBox and the old games.
ReplyDeleteYou can run any old DOS era game off DosBox and it looks and sounds exactly like it did back then. Set it up for Wolfenstein3D, Heretic etc. for my friend and she's been laughing maniacally ever since.
If no one remembers there were a bunch of other fun platformers from Apogee and Blizzard in the day as well, BioMenace, Blackthorne, etc. come to mind. Greatest game of all time though still has to be Star Control 2.
Oh...and go Eberle?
I was big into the space quest and kings quest series growing up. More the former than the latter, but I was always amazed by those types of games.
ReplyDeleteDawgbone, you can thank me later:
ReplyDeletesarien.net
Thanks Uni... my productivity just took a massive hit.
ReplyDelete