We talked about this in August and more recently here and the fact that Motin was falling well down the depth chart and likely to be in Stockton. Motin was drafted 103rd overall and did make the NHL for 1 game, so I hesitate to grade him as a draft fail. He did not emerge as a legit NHL option during his entry level deal, so that makes him a draft miss at the very least.
Among Stu MacGregor selections, Motin joins Troy Hesketh and Jordan Bendfeld as clear miss selections. The 2008 draft--MBS' first one--still has Eberle, Hartikainen and Cornet pushing.
So does this have any bearing on the number of contracts? Will we have freed up an extra NHL contract?
ReplyDeleteLooks like my prophecy at 5:59pm in this thread came true.
ReplyDeleteIf you'd like your future told, please send $100 and you too can have your future told in a small dialogue box.
Franken,
Yes it does open up a contract spot.
So much for my Hjalmarson comparison. Though, to be fair, I compared the two before Hjalmarsson was an NHL regular winning Stanley Cups and signing offer sheets. Still...swing and a miss on that one.
ReplyDeleteSince the discussion here is regarding draft picks, I just thought I'd throw this out for consideration:
ReplyDeleteTaylor Hall:
GP 16 G3 A7 PTS10
Tyler Seguin:
GP15 G11 A9 PTS20
And if Seguin maintains a 23% shooting percentage for the rest of his career and Hall continues to shoot at 7%, then we'll have definitely made a big mistake. Other than that, the numbers are almmost identical.
ReplyDeletealmost*
ReplyDeleteSince the discussion here is regarding draft picks, I just thought I'd throw this out for consideration:
ReplyDeleteTaylor Hall:
GP 16 G3 A7 PTS10
Tyler Seguin:
OHHHH NOOOES HALL IS TERRIBLE!!!!!
wait a minute...
last year:
Hall 65gp 22g 20a 44pts
Seguin 74gp 11g 11a 22pts
SEGUIN IS HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!
wait a minute.....
These are two teenagers in the extreme early parts of their careers and making any judgements at this point shows stupidity and lack of any kind of knowledge about sample sizes.
P/60 5V5
ReplyDeleteHall: 1.70
Seguin: 4.81
cc: Seguin is on a cup-winning team. Hall is on a team which is remarkable primarily because it's no longer a last-place team.
ReplyDeleteP/60 5V5
ReplyDeleteHall: 1.70
Seguin: 4.81
Kessler: 0.39
Oh no! VAN should have traded Kessler while he had value!!!
Hall was 1.78 last season so he's not that far off last season's rate.
ReplyDelete@ Woodguy.
I don't think anyone has suggested trading Hall and I am sure the Canucks are cutting Kesler some slack based on his body of work and the fact that he is coming back from missing training camp and the first 5 games of the season.
"Since the discussion here is regarding draft picks..."
ReplyDeleteNo, it was regarding one draft pick; Johan Motin. Now it's yet another Taylor/Tyler debate.
C'mon DSF I enjoy these small sample size discussions so much.
ReplyDeleteYou're right though in that Hall was 1.78 last year and 1.70 this year.
I doubt that's his long term number.
Know for a fact Seguin 4.81 isn't Seguin's.
@ Woodguy.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt.
The Swedes are struggling in this org as a group. No traction whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteI hope Omark isn't tempted by Johan's decision.
Motin is no great loss but Linus heading home would be disappointing.
Guy Lafleur: Struggled a little his first three seasons on a good Montreal team before breaking out and winning the Hart trophy(and 4 straight cups).
ReplyDeleteMarcel Dionne: Did better at first on a crappy Detroit/LAK team, but never won squat and won't be remembered.
Except we've got Lafleur, lol.
Speaking of Lafleur, I just looked up his junior numbers. Did the QMJHL ban the use goaltenders in 1970 or something? 209 points in the regular season, 43 points in 14 playoff games in his draft year. I know we're talking about a special kind of talent and different eras and such, but...wow!
ReplyDelete@hunter
ReplyDeleteIf Taylor Hall puts up over 1000 points in his career like Dionne did, I'd be a happy camper.
As for Motin, the guy was getting buried and probably wouldn't have been signed by the Oilers at the end of his contract this year. All the best of luck to him. As for whether this paves the way for Omark going back... I'm fairly sure that if Omark wants to go to Sweden, he will regardless of what Motin does. The possibility of going back if he didn't make the team was likely on his mind when he signed the contract a year ago, given he had the out-clause in it for the second year. That said, I'd like to see him back with the Oilers sooner than later.
WG - Hall not a teenager anymore. His 20th was yesterday. Yayzz.
ReplyDeleteMotin: go over to SEL. play 3-5YR in SEL and KHL. NHL teams are in need of older solid Shutdown Dmen.
ReplyDeletePart of the fun of drafting so high is we can consider the different scenarios over time and lambaste Oil mgmt. with the benefit of hindsight.
ReplyDeleteRight now Seguin/Landeskog looks to be trending as the better two year pick combo. By the end of the year, it could be Larsson and Gudbranson.
I like the guys we took and the complimentary skillsets they bring to the table. Equally important, they are both worth the price of admission. The only sliver of doubt that nags away is Hall's disconcerting tendency to take the big hits.
IMO that's far from fair, Lee. If you traded Seguin for Hall straight up today, there's nothing to say the numbers wouldn't swap as well, with Hall getting 4PPG and Seguin getting nothing. As we've seen from last year to this year, the quality of the supporting cast makes a *huge* difference to the apparent value of a player. Even the quality of the teammates not on your line.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so Seguin's a quality, even elite player. I figured as much last spring when he starred against the Bolts - you just don't play that kind of game in the playoffs unless you're going to be special.
ReplyDeleteIt didn't make me not want Hall, because not only I already knew Hall was elite, but I also like the manner hall uses a level of genius for attacking the net.
Okay, okay, so Seguin's on fire right now. Good for the Bruins, and good for him. And for the past few games Hall's been checked out of the games by a series of elite teams who who all are giving him special defensive treatment. Does that mean I'd now trade players?
No way Jose.
And as for comparing RNH to anyone else so far, I'd happily wager our guy has already shown enough brilliance to wish/hope everyone else would simply sftu - because RNH is going to be one of the very best NHL centres for the next 15 years.
Hell, I was even starting to wonder about Eberle the other day, until he exploded for a few extra points. We might as well face it - other than those few uber-level headed types like Jonathan Willis, many of us are insane.
@hunter,
ReplyDeleteNo offense, but I thought the same thing about Lupul after he scored 4 goals in a playoff game. Reality has been different in his career to date. Marked by multiple trades and now maybe he has found a home.
I was a Tyler guy myself two summers ago, but am not sold he's miles ahead of Taylor right now.
I also did not believe Tavares was ready for a breakout season that some were calling for either. He seemed hot for the first two weeks and now has leveled off significantly.
Ah, gotta love those small sample sizes.
Last year, it was the Bruins incredible depth and quality that was cited as the reason Seguin was underperforming Hall. This year it is the Bruins incredible depth and quality being cited as the reason Seguin is outperforming Hall.
ReplyDeleteNonetheless, I agree with the general sentiment above. The sample sizes are too small. I would argue that even a full year of 82 games is too small a sample in this game, especially when talking about goaltenders and rookies. I suspect Hall & Seguin will have very similiar career EV P/60 by the end of the this year, just like they did in junior.
Two very different players, both very high quality. You can see why Oilers mgt was working so hard to get the 2OV pick from BOS.
I think the deal with Omark is pretty simple. He got sent down and since then has said all the right positive things about working hard to get back to the Oilers. He has backed it up by playing well and now he's going to continue to work hard until he gets the call.
ReplyDeleteI think the kicker is that if the Oilers call any other forward up from the farm to the big club ahead of him he will leave for Sweden. He deserves the first call and I think he will be patient to wait for it.
hunter1909: You've got to be kidding me if you think Dionne won't be remembered. I guess the HHOF doesn't mean anything.
ReplyDeleteAs a Habs fan back in the early 80s (second to the Oilers), I loved Lafleur, and he was a fantastic player. He had one advantage that Dionne didn't though, and that was that Dionne was in a place where hockey didn't matter. Montreal has always been a hotbed for hockey and almost always had no problems surrounding it's team with great players.
Anyways, just thought it was funny to read that Dionne won't be remembered.
Marcel Dionne was an outstanding player, well remembered by those who saw him play.
ReplyDeleteThe TEAMS he played on didn't win, but those of us who believe one player can't drag a team to a Stanley understand there are circumstances in every situation.
In the '91 draft the top three picks were
ReplyDelete1- Lindros
2- Falloon
3- S.Niedermayer
Lindros spent his post draft year with the Oshawa Generals as well as the Canadian international team while refusing to play with the Nordiques.
Neidermeyar got a 4 game cup of coffee with the Devils but spent the rest of the year in the WHL.
Falloon came into the league with the expansion Sharks and scored 25 goals and 59 points. He would never reach that goal total again.
Pretty tough to judge a year out. You can't judge a draft until 5 years out.
Last year, it was the Bruins incredible depth and quality that was cited as the reason Seguin was underperforming Hall. This year it is the Bruins incredible depth and quality being cited as the reason Seguin is outperforming Hall.
ReplyDeleteHaha, so true!
I have this image in my head of Hall this season: every SOG I've seen him take has been from the half boards right into the goalie's crest. What happened to his ability to get into the slot?
Lines at practice today:
ReplyDelete4-93-14
94-10-83
57-20-28
55-89-37
What the fuck is Renney doing?
Too many offensive players, so put 23 in AHL, scratch 91 and put 89 with stone handed plugs.
This from a coach who talked about 3 scoring lines?
Shades of OTC.
Maybe Gagner does have the attitude problem that many say he has? Seems to have pissed Renney.
FFS.
Also,
Barker out 4 weeks with ankle sprain. Do sprains take that long? Did anyone actually see his ankle inury? Will there be whispers about his other reported issues?
Whitney in 10 days.
Hordichuck cleared but not in game shape.
A sprain can easily take 4 weeks. If you've ever had one you know how much of a PITA it can be. Nothing you can really do with it but wait for it to heal.
ReplyDeleteBarker may not be a top pairing guy, but he's a better option than some of our other bodies (peckham) and I think the team is going to miss him.
And I agree in the thinking that Ganger may have pissed Renny off somehow. I don't know how else we really explain it. Either way it is not looking good for 89.
Quoted for truth.
ReplyDeleteRepeat after me:
I will ice three scoring lines.
I will ice three scoring lines.
I will ice three scoring lines.
What the fuck is Renney doing?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I wanted repeated. Damn you HTML tags.
Lander solidifies that 3rd line as a solid checking unit.
ReplyDeleteGives us 3 good lines imo.
Gives us 3 good lines imo.
ReplyDeleteYou shit talk the Oilers and their players every chance you get, revel in their failures and you refer the team as "us"?
Didn't expect that.
Woodguy:
ReplyDeleteWho do I "shit talk"?
I like our first line.
I haven't even mentioned Horcoff now that we have RNH. My contention was always that we needed a 1st line center and now we have one.
I like Jones as much as anyone around these parts. I'm a fan a Lander and I think Eager can be useful. I have no problem with Petrell either.
But apparently because I've identified Gagner as useless (looks like Renney agrees) it means I don't like the team. Laughable but whatever floats your boat.
Keep pumping your pom poms.
Shades of OTC.
ReplyDeleteYep - the work ethic question is an interesting one. The jist of the 'dressing room problem' following 06 was that the 'kids' (Gagner, Nilsson, Cogs, others?) were not getting along with the vets (Moreau, Souray, Horcoff?, Staois). Depending upon the rumour of the day, it was either because the kids didn't have the work ethic to win (i.e. not working out enough with Chad, too much goofing off in the room, etc) or it was because the vets were too serious and mean (i.e. making the kids wait to use the hotel elevator until the vets used it, making the kids sit at the front of the bus, etc.).
Perhaps there was some truth to both interpretations.
It seems to me that the Ping Pong table came back into the room this year, but Renney seems to be preaching pretty 'serious' sounding stuff about discipline, what it takes to win, etc. He also seems to give little latitude to talented individuals who may appear to be something less than 'do or die' in terms of their attitude. At the same time, hard working Ethan Moreau types seem to have a pretty long leash.
I guess what I am saying is that there is a rift in the dressing room and that the coach has lost the team.*
* Actually, I am not saying that at all. I am basically musing about the difficulty in balancing between ensuring a good fun positive dressing room and a hard working and serious disciplined team.
What the fuck is Renney doing?
ReplyDeleteTo quote Allan Iverson: "We're talking about practice here"
And I agree in the thinking that Ganger may have pissed Renny off somehow. I don't know how else we really explain it.
He is the fourth best C on the team? He hasn't won a battle for the puck since last season? He looks completely lost?
If he can't show a little something vs OTT 4th line then maybe he is in trouble - justifiably.
What the fuck is Renney doing?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be too concerned about the lineups in practice when they have a few days in between games. I seem to recall Renney trying different combos like this last year.
Having Gagner on the 4th this year seems like a bad idea strategically.
ReplyDeleteIf they want him, reducing his chances of scoring will make him bitter. Looks like a ploy to reduce his contract value.
If they to trade him, they suffer from reducing his value. Can't see the logic.
Lander and Petrell have been getting smoked on the 4th according to the stats guys. Send them down, bring 23 up who is more NHL ready, and get the trade bait producing for Pete's sake.
Must have been a different Traktor that I've read for the last 5 or so years, sorry for the mistake.
ReplyDeleteKeep pumping your pom poms.
I'm a fan of the Oilers, but even when I was a season ticket holder I never refered to the team as "we".
Ducey,
No question 89 hasn't been good lately, but to be fair he's had 2 games at C so far this year, both with Jones on his wing.
Getting shunted lower makes me think Renney isn't liking what he's seeing via their scoring chances, and perhaps his "try" level. Renney was furious with the effort in CHI and 89 and 91 seem to be his main culprits if todays lines at practice mean anything.
With our PK being so good early on, and getting torched in the last game, I can understand wanting to get Lander back into the lineup. I can also understand not wanting to sit Petrell for the same reason.
ReplyDeleteI don't really get why Eager isn't the guy to come out, but the lines don't really bother me. It's early in the season, so why not try a few things if the coach has a hunch? I'd rather have Gagner on the 4th line than in the pressbox.
I do like Bellanger and Jones together, but I would probably try Petrell at LW instead of Lander if it were me. But I can also see why they'd want Lander and Petrell on the same line as they're also a PK duo.
I also thought Gagner was one of our better forwards in Chicago. Dropping him to the 4th line to play with Eager seems like a strange way to reward him.
ReplyDeleteI like Gagner on the 4th line, playing centre and far far away from anything resembling the opposition's better players.
ReplyDeleteSam needs a chance to relax and play at his natural position, instead of being shunted to the wing. Does he get bitter? What does he of zero goals have to get bitter with?
Cool story woodguy.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what you refer to the Oilers as or what you think of me.
Speaking of Sedes and throwing away!
ReplyDeleteDear Scott Howson:
Try and Get the players the oil have or seem to be throwing away.
Gagner,
Cogliano
R. Nilsson
Omark
Prospal-Johansen-Nash
Omark-Vermette-Carter
Nilsson-Gagner-Cogliano
Cool story woodguy.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what you refer to the Oilers as or what you think of me.
Or your pom poms.
woodguy:
ReplyDeleteI have an opinion and its not formed on the basis of getting approval from someone.
All I posted was that I like the look of the lines and you started attacking me.
Have you tried meditation?
Pondering line changes are a little like pondering a Menage a Trois.
ReplyDeleteThe combinations are endless
The end result could be fantastic
The reality is often disappointing
Typically results in two people doing all the work while the other watches
I be trollin, trollin, trollin,
ReplyDeleteMan my ego's swollen
Horcoff!
Rain and wind and weather
Hell bent for derailing blogs
etc. etc.
Dear Scott Howson:
ReplyDeleteYou badly needed RJ Umberger and as a result lost the chance to get Luca Sbisa, Tyler Ennis, Jordan Eberle, Michael Del Zotto or John Carlson.
You badly needed Vermette when you could have had Robin Lehner
You badly needed Jef Carter when you could have had Couturier.
Now your team is expensive and sucks.
I suggest you become much more bombastic and controversial as you are badly going to need a job and your only hope is to follow such hockey geniuses as Mike Milbury and Columbus' own Doug MacLean.
Back to Motin..... Did he have an escape clause in his contract? If not, does he become a UFA if/when he wants to come back to an NHL team?
ReplyDeleteI almost feel like this post is off topic!
I almost feel like this post is off topic!
ReplyDeleteReally?
woodguy:
ReplyDeleteI have an opinion and its not formed on the basis of getting approval from someone.
All I posted was that I like the look of the lines and you started attacking me.
I didn't attack you. I wrote:
You shit talk the Oilers and their players every chance you get, revel in their failures and you refer the team as "us"?
Didn't expect that.
The fact that you referred to the Oilers as "us" surprised me as that is something that die hard fans do, and I given your track record of being, well... Traktor, I didn't take you for a die hard Oilers fan, so I mentioned my surprise.
I took you for the guy who's normal foray into threads when the Oilers are losing to something like:
Gagner currently 8 points behind the real Wellwood.
I also took you for the guy who shows his true colors on a blog when he thought it was invite only to view the comments section.
I didn't know you were Traktor 1.1 or 2.0 who is just interested in Oilers and nothing more, sorry, my bad.
I'll stop.
I apologize.
Have you tried meditation?
I stumbled upon a book about Alpha meditation and creative visualization when I was in high school. Still use that stuff occasionally some 22 years later.
Good stuff.
Gus,
If a player and mangement agree to terminate a contract, there's no problem terminating it.
Motin Bolts were my favorite cereal as a kid.
ReplyDelete