Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Dorel Norman Elvert

Every once in awhile someone will ask me why I've never read Moneyball. The answer I give often is that if they'd made a movie about Whitey Herzog and called it Moneyball I'd watch it a dozen times. The idea that the Oakland A's discovered how to outsmart the competition and that no one had thought of it ridiculous.

Baseball isn't a game of revelations, it's a game of ebbs and flows. Earl Weaver's three run homer has roamed the earth as the dominant style for many years now, but someday (hell maybe it's happening now, I don't follow the game like I used to) an owner will build a massive ballpark and the general manager and manager will hire jackrabbits and have 14 men pitching staffs with equal parts lefty and righty. Hell, maybe all the hitters will switch-hit and steal bases too, just for fun.

The game goes in cycles, so the crime of Moneyball is putting forth that someone was so smart, so far ahead of the other craniums, that they could outsmart the dummies by such a wide margin as to win forever. That's Moneyball, a giant fantasy with an actual man claiming credit. Read the book? Watch the movie? Why on earth would I do that?
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I have a fun game for all of us to follow. At some point in the next few weeks or months, the Edmonton Oilers are going to lose a quality young player for very little. I'm pretty certain it'll happen, since Linus Omark is wasting away in OKC while Gagner and Paajarvi struggle mightily in Edmonton. The rebuild has given way to contention, and with it patience has no place in the playbook.

So, here's the contest: guess the player lost, the payment and the team said player is going to later this season. I'll buy the winner lunch.

73 comments:

  1. Wow. Guest post from Joe Morgan. Impressive.

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  2. Given that you haven't read the book, how confident are you the content precisely matches what you've heard?

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  3. speeds: Good point. However, no one has claimed the book is anything more than the A's identifying undervalued talents in the minors and then acquiring them.

    How is that different than Whitey Herzog acquiring Willie McGee?

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  4. Sam Gagner to Toronto for Korbinian Holzer and a 4th round pick.

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  5. The game goes in cycles, so the crime of Moneyball is putting forth that someone was so smart, so far ahead of the other craniums, that they could outsmart the dummies by such a wide margin as to win forever. That's Moneyball, a giant fantasy with an actual man claiming credit. Read the book? Watch the movie? Why on earth would I do that?

    That's not really the point of the book -- not at all, actually. The book openly acknowledges the fact that the approach was not sustainable -- that other teams would (and did) mimic the Billy James-inspired Oakland technique and the balance would be tilted again. The Oakland success was about keeping a poker face for as long as possible.

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  6. James L: Which got them some good seasons and and that's great. However, it seems to me the main thrust of what people were saying the A's did was get value contracts for their owner. If I'm the owner, that's thrilling.

    But as a fan? Hmmm. I'd rather have enjoyed a WS win.

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  7. McKenzie tweeting the LAK and Oilers reached an agreement on the Fraser-Smyth deal before the commish heard it.

    I wonder what the Oilers gave up?

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  8. According to McKenzie, settlement is a small cash outlay to cover medical costs.

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  9. Gagner, Hemsky to Nashville for Shea Weber.

    Omark and Hartikanen (sp) recalled.

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  10. It's a bit of a crapshoot really.

    Omark isn't favoured by the organization but conversely doesn't have much value.

    Magnus won't be moving, at least not this year.

    So I'll guess... Gagner to New Jersey for a 2nd round pick and a junk asset (3rd round pick or tweener defender, say Mark Fraser).

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  11. @ Chris

    " Hi David...it's Steve....

    I'd like to trade you two injury prone players who have scored 6 points this season for Shea Weber.

    Now I know Weber has scored 11 points this season and is one of the top 5 defensemen in the league but this Sam kid has potential and I'm sure they can kick start your offense".

    Click.

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  12. PJ Oil: Thanks for that link, excellent. The Hirsch book looks worth a read.

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  13. Unfortunately it will be the 4th rounder Omark who goes, the other two were top ten picks.

    It would be unfortunate to dump any of them, actually, but if push comes to shove the braintrust doesn't have the stones to grease their first rounders, nevermind that the point of acquiring BPAs is so you have assets to trade for balance. Won't happen.

    Omark to Ottawa for a journeyman D and a 5th round pick.

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  14. Omark hurt tonight in the OKC game. Hartikainen with a pair of goals and Cornet scored again. 11 goals this early, at his age?

    Hmmm.

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  15. He has only 30 shots in 15 games, though. That's about 150 shots a season? A nice run he's on but 11 goals in 30 shots is the stuff of fiction.

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  16. Omark hurt? That will make it so much easier to evaluate him, Hemsky and Gagner before deciding which one (or two) are expendable. This season is quickly reverting to the mean.

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  17. Dammit jon, you took mine!

    My second was:

    Omark to CAR for a 2nd. I get unlimited drinks at lunch when it mentioned in print and/or radio how good the deal is becuase the Oilers turned a 4th rounder into a 3rd rounder.

    Note: Omark was hurt in the OKC game tonight and didn't return.

    Gagner and Peckham to CAL for Sarich and a 1st rounder.

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  18. Unlimited drinks? NOOOOOOOOO. Based on the posts about booze by the bunch of you over the years, I'm imposing a "just food" clause. :-)

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  19. Dammint! meant drinks when 4th into a 2nd gets mentioned.

    LT,

    Is your new site being brought here by dogsled?

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  20. Woodguy: lol. All I know is we're trying. I even have a client!

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  21. Ok, you buy lunch, I'll buy the drinks at lunch.

    Make sure you have no sales calls or studio work to do that afternoon.

    Take a cab to lunch too.

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  22. WG: In radio, that's called Friday. :-)

    Awesome.

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  23. Omark for an ex-first rounder with all of his arrows pointing the wrong direction.

    Logan MacMillan or Tyler Cuma, perhaps.

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  24. Bunz took a puck off the face while sitting on the bench at the super series a little bit ago, taken to the hospital for X-rays. Hopefully its nothing serious. On-topic, Gagner for Josefson and NJ's second.

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  25. but this Sam kid has potential and I'm sure they can kick start your offense".

    Its funny that we all look to teams that need secondary scoring to make a guess at who might want Gagner and everyone picks NSH, who are 17th in G/G, whereas the Oilers are 26th.

    Here's the list from top to bottom in the NHL for g/g.

    PHILADELPHIA
    WASHINGTON
    BOSTON
    CHICAGO
    VANCOUVER
    PITTSBURGH
    FLORIDA
    BUFFALO
    NY RANGERS
    TORONTO
    PHOENIX
    SAN JOSE
    OTTAWA
    TAMPA BAY
    COLORADO
    DALLAS
    NASHVILLE
    DETROIT
    WINNIPEG
    MONTREAL
    ST LOUIS
    CAROLINA
    LOS ANGELES
    MINNESOTA
    NEW JERSEY
    EDMONTON
    COLUMBUS
    CALGARY
    NY ISLANDERS
    ANAHEIM

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  26. The fundenmental priciple I hear from other posters is lets sell junk and get gold. I think that Hemmer goes for a second round pick and maybe a journeyman defenseman.

    Is fegor related to gregor?

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  27. All right LT, I'll bite on this, and you get off the hook on the lunch part too because I don't live in Edmonton anymore. I am going to recycle the answer I gave on the C&B roundtable at the end of the summer.

    Here’s a possible scenario that I think is quite realistic, given the bridges Tambo managed to burn this summer with Mulletgate. My guess is Hemsky be a Blueshirt by season’s end, playing on a line with Gaborik and Richards. If Tambo is lucky, he will be able to pry Dan Girardi or Michael Sauer and a 2nd round pick out of Sather’s hands, more due to Sather’s onset of senility rather than Tambo’s "excellent" negotiation skills, as you put it. If Tambo is unlucky, he will trade Hemsky straight up for Dylan McIlraith and some spare parts. Hemsky will definitely re-sign with the Rags and go on to his first ppg season as the RW on one of the most explosive lines in hockey, giving the Rangers a more dynamic offence then they have had in years, allowing them to get over the hump of 1st round exits. Coincidentally, this contract will force the Rangers to make a tough decision about Brandon Dubinsky, but he still doesn’t become an Oiler after years of speculation and wishful thinking.

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  28. I am sure I would enjoy the lunch.

    If it was conewasm them I could say I ate my cone. but it is conedism...

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  29. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  30. FYI, I did a direct cut and paste...maybe I should have edited it first. I don't post anything here for 3 months and still couldn't get my own thought process right...I suck. Sorry/

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  31. Hell, maybe all the hitters will switch-hit and steal bases too, just for fun.

    Coleman,lf
    OSmith,ss
    McGee,cf
    ...

    ... and when one of those rabbits needs a day off insert THerr,2b and carry on.

    My goodness, I enjoyed Whitey Herzog.

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  32. shepso: It was good, I enjoyed reading your thought process.

    Bruce: Whitey was king. I still miss him.

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  33. I should probably show up more often...or at least write stuff on my own blog from time to time...btw, I have listened to the podcasts of the show. It's really really good. I should've said so a long time ago now.

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  34. Don't forget Pendleton too. But it was the big bat of Jack Clark that knocked all the runners in wasn't it?

    Omark to CBJ for a 2nd rounder.

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  35. I predict (hope) the team stays the course and trades nobody.

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  36. @William: Yeah, Jack Clark used to bat fourth and drive the switch-hitting rabbits home. I stopped because he just batted from the right side and didn't run much. But he was the "three-run homer" part of the equation.

    Good call on Pendleton, he was further down the line-up like Herr, but he switch-hit and pilfered bases just like the other guys. From '85-87 all five switch hitters stole over 15 bases each, every year. The LH hitter Andy Van Slyke used to be a threat to run too. Such a fun team to watch.

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  37. I'll go with Omark to the Ducks for Sbisa.

    Ducks desperately need someone who can score. There's a good chance it could be Gagner, but I think that Omark has higher value and is more likely to get a roster player in an area of need.

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  38. @ wunderbar.

    Omark has scored 5 goals in 56 NHL games played.

    "Scoring" is not his forte.

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  39. LT: If i win, make a $50 donation to your local foodbank.

    I'll say Omark to CBJ for a third rounder.

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  40. In fact, I suggest everyone follow my example and just have Lain make a donation in your name.

    Holidays are coming up and lots of families aren't as fortunate as the lot of us and it would be nice to help someone.

    And if you still want to meet the man for lunch, then pay for it yourselves;)

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  41. 'small cash outlay to cover medical costs' for Ryan Smyth and to dump Fraser.

    We should take Penner back to get LA back as a trading partner.

    I'd like to see Penner play for a contract after he gets off the IR... trade him for Barker! Win! Win?

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  42. Bunz tweets...

    out of hospital, back at the hotel. Hoping to be ready to go tomorrow! Sore face/temple .. long way from the heart #suckitupbunz

    So it sounds like he's okay. This is good.

    I'm still not sure they trade anyone any time soon. Hmm...

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  43. I'm going to throw Peckham's name out there as well. I feel like he and Gagner might be packaged together later in the season in exchange for a defenceman.

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  44. I think lots of these deals are wet dreams for Oiler fans. Ellis, Weber, a draft pick that would get media coverage... but LT's point that we'll get less than 100 cents on the dollar is the most likely scenario.

    The obvious one is taken - Omark to SEL for nada. So I'll add to it to make it more complex.

    Omark to SEL
    Brule to UFA market (remember when he was a good young player?)
    AND Gagner + a 4th to NJ for Urbom, Cam Janssen, and a 3rd.

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  45. What is 100 cents on the dollar for Omark? A second rounder?

    So anything less than a 3rd rounder is a catastrophe?

    And what's the proper level of wide-eyed panic for loss equivalent to the marginal difference between a 2nd and 3rd rounder?

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  46. I'll go with Omark to Anaheim for Devant Smith-Pelly

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  47. Actually Matty says that 'The Oilers would like a young, warm body for him (likely a defenceman) rather than a third-round draft pick, but they aren't about to lose him for nothing. He's an NHLer, just not here.'

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Journal+Hall+Fame+hockey+writer+Matheson+answers+your+questions/5711031/story.html

    I'll change my vote to Patrick Wiercioch of the Senators. Brian Lee would be another option but he's waiver eligible and they could have grabbed him last year and didn't so I'm guessing that he's not a guy they like.

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  48. To continue what would be considered normal here in Tamboland:

    Hemsky walks as a UFA after he doesn't agree on taking a "home town discount."

    Gagner's RFA negotioating rights get traded at the 2012 draft for a 2nd round pick. The pick ends up being a bust.

    Omark gets signed to a 5 yr deal worth $3.75M/per. He ends up being buried the AHL after year one when it is realized his AHL skills don't translate to the NHL.

    I will be happy with a $50 + interest donation to the food bank some time in the 2016-2017 season.

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  49. Still no talk of Hemsky resigning seems a December trade for him is in the works.

    Hemsky to Columbus for Methot and a 3rd.

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  50. LT, love the blog. Been reading for a number of years now. Listen to the show when I can. As for this guess its gagne and a 3rd out the door for bogosian - (I wish).

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  51. Wanyes bastard child beat me to the punch on Turris, so I'll add in Omark to the Gagner package for him.

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  52. Well Omark is better than Pitlick or Hamilton will ever be therefore Omark is worth more than a second rounder.

    Anyway we all know that he is headed to the SEL so this is all a moot point.

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  53. Gagner and Peckham for an overrated Luke Schenn.
    Omark to the SEL.

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  54. Gagner & Peckham to Toronto for Aulie and a third.

    OT: Has anyone read through Cornet's twitter feed? 11 goals or not, the guy uses some words that might be frowned upon once he gets called up...

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  55. Gagner for Filatov

    Except Gagner is hurt again. I think Hemsky is a carrier.

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  56. I'm still doubting that they trade anyone soon, but I'll go with...

    Gagner to the Islanders for Blake Comeau and a pick.

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  57. LT is in fine dander this morning. I suppose I've contributed implicitly fawning posts about Moneyball. Reminds me of an article on the fad for insight against the grain (via aldaily): Jonesing for Freakonomics. The Moneyball story is a popular story these days. Which doesn't mean it's as new as people suppose.

    I go back in the computer business as far as LT and Bruce go back in hockey, so I've got a few of my own rusty axes. Here's a movie I will never attend: Steve Jobs swore to destroy Android.

    I was fortunate to hang out in Palo Alto several times in the early 1980s visiting university classmates who had gone on to bigger and better things. One of my visits overlapped with the Rock Hudson press release from July 1985. For some reason I recall that event the same way I recall the space shuttle Challenger explosion from January 1986. Death and fallibility are mind-expanding drugs as a 23 year old.

    On one of those visits I scored an invite to Xerox Parc where I actually got to sit and use a Xerox Dorado for half an hour in a quiet room. I admit: the three button mouse was insanely confusing for the first ten minutes--not to mention that you could edit the source code for the simulation while the program was actually running.

    The Dorado was a more advanced version of the Xerox Alto from which Steve Jobs stole everything for the original Lisa. My university had one of those as a show piece: it was an unusable piece of junk that sat on a pedestal and seemed to rarely get used, but it sure looked impressive as a gesture toward the future. At $9,995 in 1983 dollars, it was a real bargain. I recall that one or the other of those Xerox models cost $50,000 each to build. It was a research initiative. They were never commercialized.

    Sometimes stealing is hard work, and sometimes the hard work of stealing is nearly as valuable in its own right as what was stolen. Steve felt that way about his own efforts, but not so much about the iPhone homage from Google, who had been messing with cell phones long before Jobs caught the touch religion.

    I thought the story about Moneyball was that Oakland was the first team to catch on to the idea of using secondary statistics (of the less heroic variety) as the primary filter for discovering undervalued talent, but perhaps I was wrong. I read plenty of reviews of both the book and the movie, and none of these reviewers made a point of the Oakland formula being old hat.

    Some revisionist legends are indelible, no matter how many times Ebenezer Miyagi Waldorf mutters "Bah, humbug!" If a movie comes out portraying Steve Jobs as inventing the graphical user interface, you can be sure I won't be warming a seat. I would be all-in for a movie on Douglas Engelbart who himself was influenced by As We May Think which inaugurated the hypertext vision against the backdrop of twin mushroom clouds.

    ----------------------------------------

    (*) Drink recipe for the Ebenezer Miyagi Waldorf:
    - one part Dickens
    - one part Karate Kid
    - one part Muppets

    Anyone on how to mix a Dorel Norman Elvert? Whoever wins, drink one for me.

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  58. Just to add my two cents re: moneyball, which has been covered to some extent already:

    Moneyball does give Billy Beane credit for utilizing various advanced stats, sabremetrics, it also paints him (in parts) as irrational and just a bit batshit. Despite that his whole approach is supposedly based on rational.

    The book goes into fairly extensive detail on Bill James, bestowing virtually all credit on the initial concepts to him. It goes into pretty good detail (for what is meant to be a pop culture book) on the history of sabremetrics i.e. the other contributors.

    If anyone in the A's organization is given a lot of credit for revolutionizing the view of things within MLB, I'd say its Paul Depodesta. Beane merely executed.

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  59. I read Moneyball and seen the movie. Both are interesting and worth the time IMO.

    Its funny how we mocked Tambellini for not making moves now we are betting on which move he'll make.

    But I'll play.

    Hemksy for Joe Morrow and a 1st.

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  60. Oh and while Im at it. Iggy goes to Washington at the deadline :)

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  61. Omark to the blues for a third. Just throwing it out there like buying a lottery tik.

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  62. lowetide: "The game goes in cycles, so the crime of Moneyball is putting forth that someone was so smart, so far ahead of the other craniums, that they could outsmart the dummies by such a wide margin as to win forever. That's Moneyball, a giant fantasy with an actual man claiming credit".

    lowetide: "no one has claimed the book is anything more than the A's identifying undervalued talents in the minors and then acquiring them. Willie McGee?"

    Sure there are waves, but that's exactly the point. Finding undervalued resources before someone sees them can be done by feel and numbers and should be done with both. So you need to find the McGee's, but you also need to find whole classes of players who are undervalued.

    LT, I can see skipping the Hollywood Spin on Moneyball, but the book is worth reading even if you think saw em good or James or Roth or Lindsay or Lane or Pythagoras need more credit

    Before you try book Moneyball, try "The Numbers Game: Baseball's Lifelong Fascination with Statistics Alan Schwarz". He traces the whole stats back before Cobb. Roth sold Rickey on OBP? Well some folks in the 19th century included walks in Batting Average.

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