Winter 2011: #4
Summer 2011: #5
Winter 2010: #17
Summer 2010: #13
Winter 2009: #9
Summer 2009: #7
Winter 2008: #18
Summer 2008: #19
The most obvious signs that the Edmonton Oilers are deep in pro forwards are the young men in OKC. Among them are Linus Omark (injured and inelgible for the top 20) and five members of the Winter top 20. Teemu Hartikainen is the top ranked forward from the minors, and I doubt he spends much longer in the AHL.
Teemu Hartikainen impressed Oiler fans during a cup of coffee with the big club late last season. He arrived at training camp in the fall blocked by several summer acquisitions (notably Ryan Smyth) and ended up being a late cut from training camp. In OKC so far, there's been plenty of coverage about a healthy scratch, but digging a little deeper shows some very nice things for our latest Finn phenom:
- 4 powerplay goals already have him tied for 2nd on the team and tied for 12th in the entire AHL.
- 60 shots on goal in 19 games is a solid total, in the league's top 20.
- This from a player who traditionally begins slowly.
- Hartikainen is not in today's OKC lineup. He was injured early in the 2nd period last night when he was tripped and slid awkwardly across the ice into the boards. He never returned to the game and is out with a shoulder injury. He might be in Edmonton tomorrow as a callup if not for the injury.
- Hartikainen on Hartikainen: "Last weekend our head coach Todd Nelson benched me because of a bad game I played previously. I have to admit that it felt pretty effin' bad to hear just before the match that I've been benched for one weaker game. But it is what it is. Of course I had a discussion with our coach where we went through the elements of our game plan and personal expectations that weren't met. While I don't agree with getting benched, I do think our coach has a point here. I got a relaxing day off after tough start. I've had a good few days to think and concentrate and I surely won't let this happen again. This has improved me mentally in the long run."
- Hartikainen on what he has to do in order to become an NHL regular: "Just play a simple game. Tip the puck and hone my skills a little more so when I go back there I'm not coming back (down here) anymore," he said. "They told me when they call me up they want me to be a top-six forward, score the goals here, get some points and be one of the leaders."
- Todd Nelson on Hartikainen's progress: "It's coming alright. Play (well) away from the puck, stopping and starting, managing the puck. Those are the biggest things for Harti that he has to work on. When he got sent down he was disappointed. It took him a few days to get over it but he's better now. He's here, he's working hard, he's having fun and he's only going to get better and better."
- 10-11 OKC 66, 17-25-42 .64
- 11-12 OKC 19, 8-5-13 .68
The timing of Harski's injury is terrible (not that there's a good time to get injured)
ReplyDeleteIt would have been nice to see he or Omark up with the big team.
I find it funny that the Oilers told him that they wanted him to come back as a top 6 F.
On one hand its a compliment to Harski, but on the other hand he's better than at least 4 Oiler forwards and should be working as a bottom 6 NHLer looking to make his way up the depth chart.
I don't subscribe to the "top 6 NHLer or play him in AHL" in most cases.
Top 6 NHLers are usually pretty damn good and have contracts so no one is stealing a job.
Learning the NHL game on the 3rd and 4th lines is a fine way to break into the NHL. Most players used to break in that way.
Anyone else notice Hartikainen is not playing in OKC tonight? Being called up due to Hall's injury?
ReplyDeleteoops didn't read previous post
ReplyDeleteLongtime lurking Habs fan dropping in to suggest Pacioretty as a comp for Hartikainen. Similar career arc so far, similar playing styles, from the little bit I saw of Hartikainen last season.
ReplyDeleteJeremy: Yeah, I'd agree except Pacioretty is a little quicker and more skilled. jmo.
ReplyDeleteRumor is shoulder and out 4 weeks for Harski.
ReplyDeleteAs per @Artful_Puck - Patricia Teter, who live tweets most of the OKC Barons games.
Ouch, that's bad timing on the injury.
ReplyDeleteFrom the last thread, it seems that the Oilers will have to likely pull the trigger on a trade for a dman either this year or next depending on playoff hopes (as mentioned by others).
Given his injury history combined with one more year left on his contract (after this), Whitney can only really be penciled into the top four.
Even this year, he hasn't shown to be the type of player who can jump back in after a long layoff and play at a high level (like a Hemsky).
With that in mind and our prospect depth, I'm guessing we're shopping more in the top 2 range than top 4.
Obviously finding a top 2 d in his relative prime is going to be pretty expensive.
San Jose traded their 2010 1st rounder (Charlie Coyle, 28OV), Devin Setoguchi, and their 2011 1st round pick)--again a 28th OV who the Wild turned into Zack Philips for Brent Burns and a 2nd rounder for 2012.
2 late first round picks and a top 6 winger for a top 2 d in his prime and a 2nd rounder back?
That looks somewhat like the Penner trade minus us getting a legit roster player in return.
Speaking of prospects, I went to an Oil Kings game last night. If anyone cares what a bum off the street think s after one game, then know this: St Croix is their best player, Reinhart isn't that mindblowing, and Lowe getting picked two rounds before Gernat is insanity.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete2 late first round picks and a top 6 winger for a top 2 d in his prime and a 2nd rounder back?
Lots of people think the Heatley - Havat trade was part 2 of one big trade.
Heatley + Setoguchi + Late 1 round prospect + late 1st round pick
For
Burns + Havlat
Here is what Wilson said about Burns after the trade:
You take a look at this business and there aren’t enough good players to go around at specific positions, whether it be defenseman or center. Adding a guy like that who is in the age group and our familiarity with him—Todd coached him when he first turned pro—seeing how he plays the game, how he would fit with our group, adding that type of piece is something we’ve been looking at doing for awhile. They rarely become available, and when they do, you jump to do it. He’s a guy that can help us in all areas, not only the offensive side but in defending, his size, how he competes. Not even focusing on a specific player like Burns, but that defensive position was a general priority we wanted to address.
That's from a very, very good three part interview by Jason Plank, editor of Fear the Fin, the BTN Sharks site.
Part 1 is here.
Hey look a very good professional interview with real good questions between a blogger and an NHL GM.
Who knew? (well...everyone except Allan Watt, Bruce Dowbiggin, and Damien Cox)
LT, maybe he is on your radar for an article, but why is Rajala playing in Finland when he signed an ELC in 2009? Any insight?
ReplyDeleteIrrelevant note,..
ReplyDeleteHas anyone noticed that NBC has changed the name of their sunday night football broadcast to "football night in America"... way, way, WAY to similar to 'hockey night in canada'..
Guess they arnt only taking notes on how to broadcast hockey, but have also noticed other 'aspects' they looked to replicate..
Anyways, thats all i got..
cheers all,..
Hamhuis cost the Canucks nothing but money.
ReplyDeletePotter cost the Oilers nothing but money too.
If you build it, they will come.
It is too early in the rebuild to trade a bunch of prospects away. You Daryl-Sutter-your-team...i.e. you cut off its upside potential by trying to just be competitive for a playoff spot.
Moving Paajarvi to the right wing would free up a space on the left wing for Hartikainen and increase our grossly overestimated depth on the right wing. It would also give Paajarvi the opportunity to play with better line mates. Personally, I like these lines... Well the top 3 anyway.
ReplyDeleteSmyth-RNH-Eberle
Hall-Horcoff-Paajarvi
Hartikainen-Lander-Hemsky
Petrell-Belanger-Jones
Woodguy said:
ReplyDeleteYou take a look at this business and there aren’t enough good players to go around at specific positions, whether it be defenseman or center.
Yeah, though the Sharks haven't won a cup yet and being in SJ doesn't hurt when it comes to signing FA, they still seem to do a great job at putting a mathematical value on players/positions that's not clouded by emotion.
I think Tyler wrote a post a couple years ago about the cost per win ratio of GMs and SJ was near the top.
This year neither Heatley nor Havlat are exactly lighting the lamp, but Havlat's has a 2.5 million dollar lower cap hit albeit with an extra contract year.
If you add the Heatley/Havlat deal to the equation, it only makes it a better deal for the Sharks.
godot:
You Daryl-Sutter-your-team...i.e. you cut off its upside potential by trying to just be competitive for a playoff spot.
That's a different matter entirely. Sutter's moves were far more irrational like trading a 3rd to Edmonton for a spent force (Staios). That trade itself was beyond perplexing.
Sutter's trade history included a litany of perplexing and very bad trades.
I don't care where you are as a team, but 2x28 ov's and Setoguchi for a 26 y/o Brent Burns assuming you get him extended at SJ's terms is never a bad trade end of story.
To put it another way, would anyone here have traded the Klefbom pick, Teubert, and Gagner for Brent Burns and a 2nd in 2012? Again assuming the same contract extension that SJ got?
ReplyDeleteI think you make the trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Ryan: I know it isn't your argument, but the Sutter era in Calgary will imo be studied for years because it's Poe level walling in.
ReplyDeleteHe kept moving back the future by trading all the picks and then it was the Grand Canyon.
Sven Barstschi will save them, though.
Unlike Poe, I don't think many GM's will imitate Sutter. :P
ReplyDeleteAs for the hypothetical trade of Gagner, Klefbom pick, and Tuebert for Brent Burns, would you have taken that deal, LT?
Mike said:
Smyth-RNH-Eberle
Hall-Horcoff-Paajarvi
Hartikainen-Lander-Hemsky
Petrell-Belanger-Jones
Couple problems with your lines Mike. To start with, we're short a set of healthy shoulders. After that, I suspect that Hemsky wouldn't be very happy.
Burns signed that contract with a supposed contender, not with a rebuilding team.
ReplyDeleteBurns would have never signed a contract with Edmonton at this point in the process. The deal was never available to Edmonton.
When you build it, once you have built it, they will come. You can't cheat. There are no shortcuts.
And once you've built it, money is all you will need. You won't have to trade prospects.
An aside. Wilson is doing this at the end of San Jose's window when he screwed up massively by not doing it early in San Jose's window with Pronger.
Not only did he not do the Pronger deal, he let a competitor in Burke and Anaheim get him and win the Cup instead.
i.e. Not making the Pronger trade was amongst the biggest blunders made by a GM in the last decade.
A godot 10.
ReplyDeleteYour blueprint is so full of holes it reeks like blue cheese.
(sorry for the cheesy mixed metaphor)
You've bought the Lowebellini rebuild hook line and sinker.
Both Tallon in Florida and Burke in Toronto have taken diametrically opposed paths to that of the Oilers and not only have relative immediate success but great long term prospects.
Which team is the youngest in the NHL?
I'm guessing you have no idea it's the Leafs.
I suggest you spend some time studying what's going on in Florida and Toronto before talking about "shortcuts".
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe theme of this top 20 seems to be Survivor related - who can survive to make it to the team!
ReplyDeleteOT
My wife and I made a bet on when the mall was closing, and we both got the time wrong. But my point was that a tie goes to me, because even though I was not right, which is not uncommon, she was wrong, and that is rare. Right? Right?
Both Tallon in Florida and Burke in Toronto have taken diametrically opposed paths to that of the Oilers and not only have relative immediate success but great long term prospects.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Burke and the Leafs go, huh? Tambo and Burke got the jobs the same season. There's no real difference in the degree of success so far, and it's happened over the same timespan.
I'm no expert, but looking at the flames prospects tells me they will struggle for a couple of years at least.
ReplyDeleteI too think Sven Barstschi will be a heck of a player. But save them?
Na, they'll be hurting. I'll be smiling.
@godot
ReplyDeleteI realize that the SJ deal wasn't on the table. You can add to the fact that the Wild are in the same division as us.
I'm trying to establish some framework for the cost of acquiring a top 2 dman in his prime. I'd like to hear what other deals have gone down since the lockout (not sure where to check this info online).
Boumeister sort of only cost the flames money (actually a 3rd rounder and Jordan Leopold) for his rights.
And once you've built it, money is all you will need. You won't have to trade prospects.
Not so sure about that. It's basic supply and demand.
I guess your point is that you clearly know the market better than Doug Wilson. :P
How many elite top 2 dmen are in the league?
How many of those are just entering their prime?
My NHL knowledge is weak, but I could start the conversation with these names:
Drew Doughty
Shea Webber
Dustin Bufuglien
PK Subban
Keith Yandle
Duncan Keith
Brent Seabrook
Alexander Edler
Kevin Shattenkirk
Mike Green
Ideally, from that list +/- others, you'd want someone with a wide range of skills which would narrow things down somewhat further.
Drafting one seems to be difficult (hard to predict).
@Ryan from the Oilers:
ReplyDeleteMy lines are purely theoretical; I tried to create 3 scoring lines and balance them by putting a veteran on each one. Screw Hemsky if he doesn't like it. "Demoting" him wasn't meant as insult. I just noticed some comparisons between Lander and Horcoff and I haven't had the opportunity to actually see Hartikainen play yet but it seems like he plays a game vaguely familar to Smyth ("power forward") from what I read. Essentially I tried to create a Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky line without Smyth and Horcoff if that makes any sense. I was reluctant to break up our top line of Smyth-RNH-Eberle because that line is pretty hot with Smyth racking up 19 points in his last 14 games and RNH and Eberle each racking up another 10 points in their last 5 games. I was pretty reluctant to "demote" Hemsky too because that would break up our hard match line but I wanted to give Paajarvi an opportunity with better linemates. I used whoever was left for the 4th line.
Hordichuk would be my favorite for 13th forward too. I saw him try to get something going with the Avalanche after Hall was crushed last night but was boxed out by the referees. I think someone over at The Cult of Hockey said it was Wilson and he was too cowardly to fight after a hit like that on one of our stars but I don't know for sure.
Couple corrections, though I included the Bouwmeister deal, I wasn't imply that he's as good as Calgary anticipated.
ReplyDeleteAs for the others on my list (not comprehensive), all are playing for the teams that drafted them except Byfuglien and Shattenkirk.
Colorado made some bizarre trades including the Shattenkirk deal that brought them Eric Johnson (+/- others in deal).
Atlanta capitalized on Chicago's cap mismanagement while paying a 1st, and a 2nd pick in a multiplayer deal.
Anyway, my point being that the Oilers will need to load up on dmen in the coming years unless the Klefboms pan out, but their current pipeline doesn't look too promising.
Mike, both Hartikainen and Hall are injured right now.
ReplyDeleteAs for Hemsky, the Oilers have painted themselves into a corner with respect to his contract status.
IMO, they have two choices... Make him happy enough that he signs an extension or showcase him on a scoring line for maximum trade value and hope that he stays healthy for a trade at the deadline.
Having him drag 2 raw rookies around the ice on the 3rd line accomplishes neither unfortunately.
As for Wilson, I suspect his hit might have been payback for Sutton's hit on Landeskog.
Both Hordichuk and Peckham left Tuebert and ? to defend against the entire Avalanche team right after Hall was crushed.
@Ryan from the Oilers:
ReplyDeleteLike I said, my lines are purely theoretical. I made them without taking injuries, contracts and other outside factors into consideration. I would just like to see the Oilers play these lines at some point in time.
I don't blame Peckham or Hordichuk for the that goal. I got the impression from the CBC video stream that a lot of people expected the play to be whistled down for boarding. I think the cameraman zooming in on Taylor Hall, Hall moving like molasses (I know he was injured but his body language said he thought the play had been whistled down), Peckham deserting his post, and Hordichuk jumping over the boards for Hemsky are evidence of the number of people thinking play had stopped.
wow, what terrible luck for TH; same goes for 23 as well.
ReplyDeleteI imagine 4's out longterm and either guy could have stepped in to make their case. Still, now 91 gets a shot.
I think the world of TH and the grit be brings and looking at Mike's lines I was wondering what a TH-57-91 line would look like and I could get behind that.
It would be a 4th unit but might be worth considering.
Dennis: Which TH are you referring to, Hall or Harski?
ReplyDelete