Winter 2011: #1
Summer 2011: #1
Pre Draft Story
- Ken Hitchcock: "My opinion on Nugent-Hopkins has changed ... last summer I thought he reminded me of Joe Sakic, but it's Pavel Datsyuk now. He strips people of the puck, he's crafty in high-traffic areas, he dishes well, he's got great patience with the puck."
- NHL Central Scouting’s B.J. MacDonald: “(Nugent-Hopkins) has very good puck-handling capabilities. His on-ice awareness is very good. He's one of those guys that knows where everyone is and where they should be and where the puck should go . . . He can dish both right or left, either on his backhand or forehand with that kind of vision. But not just the vision, but the fact he can lay that puck between the skate boot and the skate blade -- that's hard to find.”
- NHL Central Scouting’s Peter Sullivan: “A couple of people high up -- and not naming names -- said Hopkins has the best vision since No. 99 (Wayne Gretzky). That's the highest compliment you can get. But the other thing is the way he competes. He never takes a night off and he works as hard in his own end as he does in the offensive zone and that takes a special player with a special set of skills to do that.” ither one of those two guys (in ability), that's a pretty good thing."
- Redline Report: Nugent-Hopkins has the highest offensive upside and is the most potent playmaker of the bunch. He'll struggle to handle the physicality of the NHL over a grueling 82-game season since his current walking around weight is a slightly built 163 pounds. But he is gritty and willing to battle in traffic and stand up for himself, so he'll eventually get there. One thing he has shown is a consistent ability to elevate his game at the biggest moments.
- TSN (Grant McCagg): Had a slow start in terms of goal production, including going goalless in 13 games in October, but ended the 2010-11 season with 17 goals in his final 20 games after being cut from Canada's U-20 team. Strengths - high end skills, including amazing vision and agility. Quick elusive skater with superb edges. Soft hands and creative puck handler. Solid work ethic and character. Weaknesses - Needs to add some muscle to compete with NHL defencemen in tight quarters. More of a playmaker than a goal scorer, although he began showing more finish at season's end. NHL Upside - first-line center who draws comparisons to Pavel Datsyuk in terms of style.
- Kirk Luedeke: Outstanding skater with explosive burst, top-end speed, excellent lateral agility and superb edgework. Shifty, with quick feet and the ability to accelerate rapidly over short spaces. Elite stickhandler; can make any play at top speed or in traffic when there isn't much time or space. Soft touch on the puck for on-target passes. Can thread the needle through a maze of skates and sticks to hit the open man. Lightning release with a bullet shot that is accurate. Will pick corners at will. Hides his release point well and confounds goalies with his ability to get the puck on net from just about anywhere. Off-the-charts hockey sense- puck follows him around the ice. Always in the middle of the action and makes quick cuts to open up room for his linemates. The most creative player in the draft and a deadly scorer with the man advantage. Makes everyone around him better. Leads by example with his hustle and work ethic. Never quits on the play. Will initiate contact and not afraid to take the hit to make the play. Good character kid- wants to be a leader and has game-breaking ability to put his team on his shoulders at any given time.
In writing the RNH RE this summer, I suggested "reasonable expectations" would be 63, 11-23-34 (.540). The problem with reasonable is that we assume everyone gets equal ice time, and history tells us junior TOI rates can vary wildly. There were reports that the Rebels were running lines equally at even strength, but who does that? I think one of the reasons the RE for RNH (82gp, 11-27-38 .464) is going to be off has to do with ice time. We need ice time totals for these kids. I know some rinks in the WHL track it, I've been told that it has been available to media from time to time. Either way, I've been reading some Tom Awad stuff and a few other things and may try to estimate ice time for next year's fun.
There are several areas in which RNH is outstanding already:
- Tom Renney in October: “He’s doing a good job. On top of his points, our defensive structure isn’t lost on him.” 18-year olds from the WHL don't often get that kind of rating from an NHL coach. Don't be fooled by the lack of hypberbole--that's an NHL coach telling you the kid is soaking things up and then going out there and delivering. Music!
- Steve Tambellini: “I think he's played well right from Day 1 of the regular season. People are focusing on the production and that's obvious, but I think what the coaching staff was impressed about right from rookie camp is his intelligence in the defensive zone. To play centre, that position in the NHL as a young person is quite a task at times.”
- Brent Sutter: “He’s a very level-headed young man. He handles everything really well — very grown, very mature for his age. I’m happy for him. He’s a good young man, he’s a great young man, and that’s what makes him unique, too. Special player, special kid.”
- RNH's 2.41/60 at 5x5 ranks him 79th among NHL forwards who have played 5 games or more. Jonathan Toews had a 2.17/60 number at 5x5 during his rookie season, so RNH seems to be on a solid path. Although Toews was older than RNH as a rookie, their styles (C's with a nice range of skills) are similar enough for the comparable to have some merit despite the 12 month difference in age.
- RNH's 8.34/60 at 5x4 ranks him 16th among NHL forwards who have played 10 games or more. Now that's an insane number, but the fact that the Oilers are using him as a major option for dishing on the PP--AND that his beautiful passes are being cashed by linemates--is an astounding portion of this early season. Rookies take a long time to impact NHL powerplays. Jonathan Toews 4.29/60 at 5x5 in his rookie season would seem to be a good "line in the sand" by season's end.
After 20 games, he's one of the Oiler players other clubs target. Perhaps that's the biggest compliment of all.



You've got RNH at #1? Dammit, I lose $20.
ReplyDeleteI just lost $50 to my wife. Your post (the first one) didn't reference "complimentary."
ReplyDeleteI thought I knew you people!
And I thought the Generals were due.
ReplyDeleteMorrow tried to intimidate the young RNH but the Nuge was having none of it.
ReplyDeleteI was watching the Dallas feed that game and they showed several instances where Morrow was trying to "run his show" and RNH made him pay. In the short sequence Morrow was on his ass twice and both of the Dallas PBP guys were very impressed with RNH's physical play.
The kid is not a monster, but even at his slight size he won't be intimidated. Makes you wonder what will happen once he is 30 lbs heavier.
While attending the Chicago game last Saturday, I came to better appreciate his "edge-work." I've watched many live WHL games over the years, and have never seen a skater with his edges--sometimes nearly at a right-angle to his body. His ability to render a well-gapped defender almost lost is truly amazing. On a side-note, being 32, I don't recall Gretzky's earlier years very well, but my dad said this was one of his greatest strengths at creating open ice, and that RNH reminded him in way.
ReplyDeleteThe way RNH(with Hall and Eberle) went about scoring I think the 6th goal last night at once both makes Oilers a huge potential embarassment for anyone they might play, because these slobs have pride.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, eventually one of these three might end up injured.
When does he stop being a "prospect"? He's already too legit to hit...just ask Morrow
ReplyDeleteVery very very impressed so far. When he is 23 he could could develop into one of the best players in the league
ReplyDeleteI was so close to making the first comment and noting that your proper use of the word "complimentary" made you a showoff.
ReplyDeleteRegret, thy name is Jon! Argh!
When does LT graduate prospects? 65 games? This kid could have 2 full seasons of points by then.
ReplyDeleteI graduate them at 50 games. RNH made the summer list and this one, he won't be here next summer.
ReplyDeleteIs there some way we can see how points wise RNH after 21 games compares to Sid, Ovie, Malk, Toews, Kane, Stamkos and others in their rookie years as well as how old they were at the time?
ReplyDeleteCan we please get away from that weight of 163 ibs (Redline report). That is almost 2 years ago, not sure why everyone still clings onto that. I guess it demands a reaction?
ReplyDeleteRNH was 180 ibs after this past summer. Not sure where he is at right now, but 180 ibs is nothing to be ashamed about at 18 years old. Smyth does just fine at 190 ibs and he's a full grown man.
I don't know, I'm 180 and I can't hold my own against NHLers.
ReplyDeleteRaine: That was the pre-draft scouting report, as the title of that area of the post suggests.
ReplyDeleteSo far at least, RNH's size has been a non-factor.
ReplyDeleteThis was from Elliote Freidman's 30 Thoughts article on Tuesday.
15. Columbus GM Scott Howson is conducting quite the extensive goalie search; not just looking at short-term solutions. Among those looked at were Tuukka Rask and Jonathan Bernier. But the most coveted Jacket is Ryan Johansen. Believe Howson has refused to trade him at least twice. Once was to Edmonton for Ales Hemsky. (The other, I'm not 100 per cent certain.) Another player other teams like is defenceman John Moore.
It doesn't say when the trade attempt was made but Friedman is definitely on the inside, so there must be something to it.
The acceleration he showed against Chicago on Eberle's goal was amazing.Chicago turned the puck over at the Oilers blueline and he was gone in two strides.
ReplyDeleteI'm not gonna say I was wrong on Couturier, but definitely will on RNH.
ReplyDeleteGood lord.
I was a booster. Kid will be a star for a long time.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite thing about him is the passing. The other night he sent a simpe pass to Eberle, and my friend Kent (who has played hockey at a high level) said the beautiful thing about it was he led Eberle perfectly and did it with a perfect touch.
ReplyDeleteLots of times that play ends up with the puck in the corner. The kid has an incredible imagination.
The kid has been just fantastic. He's way ahead of where Hall was last year.
ReplyDeleteI admit I was wrong about RNH before the draft (should trust Stu more) but we still need our franchise defenseman.
RNH does so many things well its very easy to forget he's 18.
ReplyDeleteAfter 21 games you expect him to perform at a high level, at high speed. Its nuts.
Also,
Gregor interviewed Ritch Winter today
They talked about "moneypuck" and Winter was saying the 20% success rate in drafting is atrocious, and should be at 80%.
He calls out basically every scout and almost every team.
He also says 3 NHL teams make extensive use of statistical metrics in drafting and personnel decisions, and all 3 were in the final 8 teams left last year. (my guesses are DET, BOS, SJS. SJS is almost a given the way Wilson easily talks about metrics, but clams up at any detailed question)
Worth a listen for sure.
Winter also said that by his metrics the right pick last year was Seguin, and it wasn't close.
ReplyDeleteMostly due to position. Centers are far more valuable than wingers.
Seguin isn't playing centre. Likely never will.
ReplyDeleteWG: I guess Seguin had a big summer.
ReplyDeleteSome kids just seem to grow so much in 2 months.
Eighty percent seems a little high, no? Has anyone hit that number? Ever? Hyperbole?
ReplyDeleteAs for Hall v. Seguin I think it's silly to suggest it was clear either way. I do agree the RH C aspect has great value, but imo a lot of people are making some wild statements based on Seguin's start.
@ Woodguy
ReplyDeleteGillis lives and breathes Moneypuck.
Seguin isn't playing centre. Likely never will.
ReplyDeleteI'm not editorializing, just passing info.
Also,
Saying Seguin will likely never play center is just silly.
Keith Ballard, David Booth, Jordan Schroeder...looks like Gillis needs a new stats guy.
ReplyDeleteKessel was a centre. Boston turned him into a RW. Burke hasn't moved him back.
ReplyDeleteSo what we have to compare so far is Hall the LW vs. Seguin the RW.
Once a player gets moved out of the centre position, the greater probability is that they will not be moved back.
Is Boston ever going to sacrifice Seguin's offence on the wing to let him learn how to play the centre position defensively? Odds are no.
Just like Hall is never going back to centre.
I was mostly on Team Seguin until the Memorial Cup.
A year later, I think Hall is the better fit for the Edmonton market, and for the team. Both are going to be good players.
@ Godot
ReplyDeleteHomer goggles.
Seguin has 23 pts in 20 games...on pace for a 94 point season.
He's also an eye popping +18...on pace for +75.
Hall is just holding his own at evens.
My favourite thing about Agent Hopkins is when I find myself shouting out "How did he know???" at least once a game towards the television.
ReplyDeleteJust spectacular vision in the kid. The only other player I've ever seen that just knew what side the puck was going to eventually pop out to, and seemed to know every-freaking'-time, was you know who. Delightful.
The movement he creates on the power play is also a very welcomed thing. It's kind of what I was hoping Gagner would bring, but didn't.
Rich Winter also said that Bryz would have had a .945 sv% on Philadelphia last year according his his statistical work.
ReplyDeleteAs for RNH, chalk up another victory to the saw him good crowd.
Rich Winter is a wee bit arrogant.
ReplyDeleteInteresting comments about DD. Saying he was in the top 10 goalies in the NHL last year and Kipper was bottom 5. It is good to hear from an Oiler fan perspective.
Interesting listen for sure. I think there's a fair bit of boasting and selling going on there, but definitely adding advanced stats is a good thing.
//As for RNH, chalk up another victory to the saw him good crowd.//
ReplyDeleteI'm sure the Oilers must have been collecting all RNH's TOI info during the second half of the season, which was the information the hobbyist number crunchers in the basement didn't have, and mostly admitted they didn't have.
Actually, RNH's stats were quite good.
ReplyDeleteThe mistake was that some people thought that one aspect of his boxcars, i.e. the ratio of goals to assists, was significant in determining his value.
They were wrong. But that doesn't mean all numbers guys were wrong.
The thread here -a representative sample- suggests that only a minority of numbers guys thought that there was a case to be made that RNH's numbers were seriously problematic.
http://lowetide.blogspot.com/2011/05/magnificent-bastard-signs-three-year.html
I'll repeat a claim I made in that discussion:
"So, if you're interested in whether we should take RNH, and you want to see what the numbers really tell us, you need to go get the numbers that show us context. Because context is everything. Without it, we're blind. Without it, we'd believe 18 goal Jones is a great player and should've been given a much bigger contract.
I suspect some NHL scouts have a good -maybe even well recorded- idea of RNH's TOI and SH% and that's part of why he's #1. I sincerely hope the Oilers have some of this info too and that they use it in their evaluation.
But without it, all we have is the word of scouts that the real RNH is the second half RNH.
So please stop repeating the same boxcar analysis over and over again."
Saw him good alone is too subjective.
Boxcars alone fluctuate erratically and are unreliable and don't project well into the future.
Boxcars with context, like TOI, SH%, and zonestart, and even Qualcomp. work very well. It's just that they're not simple. And we haven't yet agreed on how to read all these stats. That's a large part of what this blog is about.
Why people take time out of their day to shit on this project is beyond me.
Let me amend that last claim. (It's important.)
ReplyDeleteWe haven't yet figured out how to use all of the stats -boxcars and advanced stats and chance data- in conjunction in a systematic, non ad hoc way, to reliably determine which players are likely to succeed in which roles -and to what degree- in the future based on past data. (And the less data needed, the better.)
But I've seen a lot of progress in this project in the past few years by Vic, Tyler, and Dennis.
We're still waiting for someone to unify all of this into something really cohesive, though. IMO
Kris: I'd say the ultimate goal is to have a rating based on one major stat with multipliers.
ReplyDeleteSome people did it for the NFL. Don't know if we'll reach it soon over here.
Those last two quotes sound pretty egotistical. I quote myself, and then say "we" when talking about people who have contributed to the newer tools we have for analyzing players. But you get the drift.
ReplyDeleteI'd say a schema of different ratings for different aspects of the game might be more useful than just one number that rates each player as good or bad.
ReplyDeleteJust one number will hide a lot of nuance and the masses will misread it.
Kris: Well I'd say the masses will never understand quite honestly.
ReplyDeleteEconomics' pretty blatant about that. Anyways.
I meant more for the draft. But I guess F/D/G would have separate ones.
Gotta begin somewhere. I guess when we go deeper into it they'l be for different type of players (grinder, sniper etc)
One term I had never heard about until a year or so ago was "edge work". I suppose agility might be synonymous but to me that involves some degree of puck handling. I'd say Hemsky has A+ agility but just B+ edgework.
ReplyDeleteRNH might have top 3 edgework in the NHL. Crosby is obviously number 1 as that ridiculous play a few years ago when he shook Perry(?) behind the net, at one point having the toes on both feet pointing in opposite directions. Eberle's edgework is elite as well but he isn't powered by the same straight ahead speed as RNH.
This provides him with a super-human ability to change direction and pace to open up space. A great example is the time Chara had him lined up in the corner. He dug the inside of his right skate in, stopping him on dime. As Chara went past he was already pushing off with his left, grabbed the puck and kept going. Hemsky would have been mush.
If you're thinking, "don't all great skaters have great edge work"? Please look up the YouTube video of Andrew Cogliano challenging the Titanic to a change of direction competition. I'll save you the suspense, it was a draw.
With a combined PP/PK % of 109%, 3rd in the NHL, are we officially calling our special teams elite? Very good? Average?
ReplyDeleteRNH and Hall or Seguin and Landeskog/Larsson?
ReplyDeleteI don't think you lose either way. Hall will pick it up he started slower last year. He's also coming off a fairly bad injury.
I'm guessing if Hall could have played for team Canada like eberle did, he would have had a better start this year.
I'm not to worried, Hall is too determined not to be in the mix by the end of the year.
Here's how RNH compares to other players who played in the NHL immediately after being drafted. I have their PPG for games through November and then PPG for the all games after that.
ReplyDeleteAs you can see, most players either had significant increases or decreases in their numbers. They either adjusted their game to the NHL or the NHL figured them out. Only Crosby and Kane are in RNH's ballpark and they went in different directions for the rest of the season. (Kane was still quite good though)
Nugent-Hopkins
Nov 1.05
Landeskog
Nov 0.48
Couturier
Nov 0.40
Hall
Nov 0.52
Post 0.71
Seguin
Pre 0.36
Post 0.27
Skinner
Nov 0.79
Post 0.76
Burmistrov
Nov 0.40
Post 0.20
Tavares
Pre 0.78
Post 0.60
Duchene
Nov 0.50
Post 0.77
E. Kane
Nov 0.54
Post 0.31
Stamkos
Nov 0.43
Post 0.64
Boedker
Nov 0.43
Post 0.33
P. Kane
Nov 1.08
Post 0.79
Gagner
Nov 0.40
Post 0.72
J. Staal
Nov 0.39
Post 0.57
Kessel
Nov 0.35
Post 0.45
Crosby
Nov 1.12
Post 1.32
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCrosby is obviously number 1 as that ridiculous play a few years ago when he shook Perry(?) behind the net.
ReplyDeleteIf this is the play you're thinking of, it was Spezza.
knighttown said... I'd say Hemsky has A+ agility but just B+ edgework.
ReplyDeleteHemsky's edgework is excellent and as a pure skater he's still a notch above RNH. He just had the bad fortune to attend the Laddy Smid 2007- 2010 Stopping and Protecting Yourself summer camps.
Being involved for years with young players at the Bantam AAA through Midget AAA levels and logging shitloads of Serdachny hours, you see steady progression in the best of the best in two key areas:
1) Ability to read the play and get to the right place
2) The ability to slow the game down. When a kid tells you it's starting to feel like the games are getting slower and the decisions easier to make that you know you've got something special.
RNH excels at both. It's almost like he's seeing the game in super slo-mo at times. Just a special kind of player who doesn't even really require talented wingers to post good numbers numbers. Hall? That's a kid who does well via pure athletic ability and determination. Waiting for him to skate right through the boards one night. Either that or jump right over them.
Just noticed we have moved ahead of the Flames in regards to projected cap expenditures even with Omark in OKC or am I out to lunch?
ReplyDeleteA play from one of RNH's highlight videos last season helped me decide he was the right choice. (standard disclaimer; No, it wasn't one "saw him good" moment that made that decision).
ReplyDeleteIt was another one of the those second half of the season Rebel games where RNH got a hat trick plus two or three assists. The play that stood out had him playing the right point on the PP. All his passing lanes through the middle were cut off.
So RNH takes off down the wing like he is heading for the corner. The D nearest to him immediately pivots outside to follow, but RNH does a quick outside spin and bullets a pass through the gap left behind by the D man. The guy sitting cross ice on the back door just had to tap in a easy goal.
I saw him recognize there was no play for him from the point. So he deliberately baits the D out of position and uses an exceptionally slick spin move and pass to set up a tap in goal. Brains, speed and skill: I wanted him to play for the Oilers.
Actually he was playing the left point, damn, I need a fact checker.
ReplyDeleteI remember being very concerned that while RNH was likely the best pick of 2011, he was one of the weakest 1st overalls of the past 10 years.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't have the pedigree of Tavares, the explosiveness of Hall, the sniper skills of Stamkos, the dynamic drive of Ovechkin...
And there's always the concern that endorsements by the likes of Hitchcock (and I should know better when it comes to him) are both political and promotional... The Maguire Effect.
This kid is the goods. I wouldn't trade him for any pick in the last 10 years, bar Crosby, and RNH might end up better. *might*
He's so much better than Hall, it's sick. He's doing what Seguin's doing, a year younger and without a Bergeron. He's a far better skater than Tavares and much more complete player than Stamkos or Kane. I am ecstatic.
Bobby Clarke, Wayne Gretzky, Pavel Datsyuk all play(ed) similar games. We might have another name for that list.
SpOiler - glad to see you are keeping your expectations low in this case.
ReplyDeleteI for one was concerned about his ratio of PP to ES production in juniors. I think some others voiced similar concerns.
ReplyDeleteThus far he hasn't had any trouble bringing the ES production which seemed like it might be a flaw.
Awesome!
We haven't yet figured out how to use all of the stats -boxcars and advanced stats and chance data- in conjunction in a systematic, non ad hoc way, to reliably determine which players are likely to succeed in which roles -and to what degree- in the future based on past data. (And the less data needed, the better.)
ReplyDeleteBut I've seen a lot of progress in this project in the past few years by Vic, Tyler, and Dennis.
Have you read Tom Awad's stuff?
You missed Tom and Gabe Desjardin in terms of guys who are on the leading edge of hockey metrics.
I won't have a post up today, but will have one tonight. I still have some more work to do on the #2 prospect post.
ReplyDeleteI did want to wish all of our American visitors to this blog (a lot of pageviews from the USA everyday) a Happy Thanksgiving. Turkey, football and falling asleep whenever you feel like it.
I'm so jealous right now I could die. :-)
All the best.
LT
Woodguy: I wonder if what kris is getting at is that there is no single "stat" number that can rate every player against every other player (an example of this type of stat is the quarterback rating system in the NFL - a bit of a confusing statistic to be sure, but there's a high correlation between that statistic and winning - I'd suggest reading ColdHardFootballFacts.com for more info on this).
ReplyDeleteHoping for a similar one-number solution in hockey is likely wasted energy - it's not going to happen. However, there are multiple pieces of valuable information out there. Individually, they don't tell much, but I'd liken this to the business principle of the balance sheet - you look at the overall "summary" for a player in terms of all the traditional and non-traditional metrics, and can make an assessment of whether or not to "buy" or "sell".
Yes, there is subjectivity in that. But there's an element of subjectivity in everything, so we just have to deal with the differences in opinion and live with it.
The bottom line for me? Ignoring information, willfully or otherwise (ex: "Corsi is useless", no TOI numbers for CHL players, etc.) doesn't help matters one bit. Any information is good information.
As for RNH - I was lukewarm leading up to the draft (the defensive need was and still is there in terms of having a potential #1D in the pipe, and we didn't have the required context for his WHL numbers that time-on-ice would have delivered, as Lowetide and many others have mentioned repeatedly), but after 21 NHL games? I'm 100% sold.
RNH makes Hemsky look ordinary with regards to vision. With Hemsky, he wows you with plays because you can see what he's trying to do from the seats, think that he can't actually pull it off, and then goes and does it. RNH takes it to the next level - he amazes you by doing shit few others would even see as an option. It's otherworldly, bordering on the 87/99 stratosphere in terms of vision. I don't like comparing an 18-year old kid to those generational talent types, so I'm happily going to settle for him turning out to be some sort of super-hybrid of Joe Sakic and Pavel Datsyuk (because, really, like anyone would complain if that were the case five years from now...)
hygro: Method for production of "grass".
It's interesting to note that one of the reasons put forward for RNH's goal/assist ratio was that he was drawing double or triple coverage in the offensive zone - he would lure the jerseys to him and then find the open man for the easy goal.
ReplyDeleteThen you see what's happening with Hall this year - allegedly the goal-scorer of the bunch, and he's playing the role of playmaker. Why? He comes blazing into the zone and draws the jerseys to him like moths to a flame.
Anyone see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmzjHQ7-YhM
ReplyDeleteLove that crazy Russian. He's going to make it one way or the other.
Seguin and Hall can't be compared really.
ReplyDeleteHall is a bull; he scores by overpowering and out muscling the opposition. There is no subtlety in his play.
Seguin is a tactician. He is much more similar to RNH.
I can only imagine what it would be like for Seguin and RNH to play together on the same line. Perhaps that will happen in the Olympics in the not too distant future.
re: edge work, that's a term the figure skating commenters use (and I'm not talking about Ron MacLean in BotB, I've followed the sport since Peggy Fleming, uhhh, caught my eye as a young feller). I'd say without hesitation that Wayne Gretzky had the best edgework I've ever seen in a hockey player, just spectacular talent that he made look so easy you really had to be watching to see how he created separation - different speeds, angles, curves, you name it. Great first step and acceleration, but also great ability to decelerate and create that extra beat.
ReplyDeleteTwo new guys in the league have really caught my eye for being exceptional at this, Jeff Skinner and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. Skinner is ridiculous, I don't see him much outside of highlight packages, but one-on-one he's as slippery as mercury. Unreal. Most here will be aware he's a former high-level figure skater himself, and one can see the application in certain circumstances.
As for RNH, he's a delightful skater with an exceptional awareness of where the good ice is and the physical ability to skate, twist, spin or brake his way into it. Outstanding at creating even a small space where there was seemingly none at all. (Gretzky was the master of this.) He has another trick Gretzky never did, using his body to physically create a little space, as buddy is super strong on his skates as Brenden Morrow found out. I saw him do the exact same thing to Travis Ewanyk in the WHL playoffs last year, Ewanyk was shadowing RNH, seemed to get him in the trolley tracks and boom! Down went Ewanyk, while the Nuge just carried on with his business with a hard-earned gap of open ice.
Before the draft I was primarily in the seen-him-good-Repeatedly camp, but I did like his numbers as well, especially in the context of the defence-first club he played for. I had a chance to interview his coach last year, Jesse Wallin, who raved about his defensive awareness and application. He's still got lessons to learn at the NHL level of course, and strength to gain, but so far so good. Given good health he's going to be an exceptional all-ice player within a very few years, I'm sure of it.
The other knock against him, which I will cattily call "too many points on the powerplay" hasn't been that big of a problem, now has it. Our powerplay has sucked for years, and suddenly it's pretty darn good. Credit the whole unit of course, but the play does seem to go through 93 a whole lot and he has a large bag of tricks at his disposal as hoil mentioned. One that we saw the other night was to simply snap the puck on net and try to handcuff the goalie and create some garbage. But rather than force a particular play, he will use all of his options - perimeter plays, far post, far point, whatever opens up, and will deliver the puck on time and under budget. A joy to watch.
Btw, LT lists him as 16th in PPP/60, but if you filter out the guys who don't get much PP time, RNH is 4th among powerplayers who average a minute or more PPTOI/GP, 2nd among those with 2 minutes, and first among the 78 forwards who average 3 minutes on the PP.
And in the interest of full disclosure, I argued for picking this guy but didn't expect a point-a-game performance quite this soon. His performance has been a pleasant surprise even to his boosters.
@FPB: Well done, sir. I respect that.
The beautiful thing about strong skating is that most of it can be taught. It doesn't necessarily have to come naturally. I still maintain that if Alex Mikhnov had been kept with the big club and put through serious power skating for about a month he would have been an excellent NHLer. Many of these guys I think are too stubborn to do it though. Watching some of them at training camp doing the more advanced skating drills is always a little embarrassing.
ReplyDeleteHall may not score as many points as Seguin, but I would bet on Hall when the chips are down, which is what counts, and I think why St took Hall. He outplayed Seguin by a wide margin in the playoffs that year.
ReplyDeleteAs LT often mentions about young players, injuries play a huge roll. To me that is what holds the future for these great rookies. RNH and Eberle seem to get avoiding unnecessary hits, which is key for slight players, see: Hemsky.
Hall is so reckless I worry about him. Nobody has a tough brain. He may play a long career like that, but I wouldn't bet on it. I hope the Oilers are talking to him about it, like Sather did with Messier long ago. It would be a shame to see such a marvelous player lose part of his career over that.
@FastOil: Butbutbut Seguin won the Stanley Cup!
ReplyDeleteThe mistake was that some people thought that one aspect of his boxcars, i.e. the ratio of goals to assists, was significant in determining his value.
ReplyDeleteChris that was mine. No one else. the people with concerns latched on to that.
Guess the saw him good crowd won out.
RNH is 1 out of 10.
I hope you live the rest of your life picking things that are correct 10% of the time. Then tell me how that goes.
His numbers put him sixth. But he is not being flipped like a bitch in Jr and He is making great use of space created for him. (thanks Taylor and Ryan)
As for top 5 in draft, now addays the see him good is a teams choice.
Where the math pays off is the seperation points in the draft. between 5-10 to 30. Lets see how saw him good works over math.
oilers draft 1990 to 2009:
Math pick then our pick:
90: weight 1.5PPG NCAA Allison
91: Whitney 2.6PPG WHL Wright
92: Straka 1.8PPG Czech Hulbig
93: Arnott/Allison OHL
94: O'neil 1.9PPG OHL Bonsignore
95: Savard 2.1PPG Jr Kelly
96: Briere 2.4PPG JR Devereaux
97: Morrow 1.4PPG Reisen
98: Riberio 1.87PPG Jr heinrich
99: Comrie 1.05PPG NCAA Rita
00: Boyes, Williams, Mikhnov
01: Hemsky
02: Stajan 1.3PPG Ninimaki
03: Richard, Perry, O'sullivan MAP
04: Bolland Dubinski, Schremp
05: Statsny 1.05PPG NCAA cogliano
06: no forward in first 3RD
07: Gagner
08: Ennis then Eberle
09: Paajarvi or Johansson
Hey in 04 the saw him good crowd picked Schremp over Bolland and Dubinsky. But score one for them on Eberle over Ennis.
Rich Winter's over the top claim that he knows more than every scout in hockey tells you all you need to know.
ReplyDeleteHe knows more than everyone about anything - just ask him.
Moneyball has been shown to be a crock. The A's did well as they Mulder, Zito and Hudson pitching and steriods hitting. They still did not win the series with Moneyball and since that pitching staff fell apart, Billy Beane has not done anything with all his "metrics".
I'd love to see Winter make his statistical predictions public. Until then its just more arrogant bluster.
I expect an old guy like Stu MacGregor beats Winter more often than not.
Nobody has a tough brain?
ReplyDeleteSurely you haven't forgotten Tie Domi already? The guy with the bowling ball head that seemed to be able to withstand infinite punches to it?
Of course one could always counter that he had no brains, I suppose...
hah, verification: chums!
Yeti, perhaps you missed the use of "might"? REs are a separate thread, so I'm not gonna worry about heaping a little praise here. And the comp to Clarke et alii was on style, not career numbers. It was nice to see you add your own thoughts on RNH, though.
ReplyDeleteAlvesses: what vegas gots
Re: Mikhnov
ReplyDeleteNot only could they have put him into some powerskating classes, but someone might have been able to figure out the kid couldn't see.
rickibear,
ReplyDeleteI respect someone who commits himself to something, and have tried not rub it in over RNH's success, but give it a rest.
Posting past Oiler draft failures and linking your imaginary opposition "group" of math Neanderthals to it proves what exactly? A bit of the old straw man argument, eh? That while you were technically wrong about RNH, normally you are right?
Many of us posted contextual arguments against your RNH analysis. As it turns out, we may have got some of it right. You win some, you lose some.
Repeat after me: "Correlation does not imply causation"
pingdoc: the guy who fixes your internet
Since Gagner(according to Bruce's Edmonton Journal) is taping up his wonky ankle for games and having problems, while being unable to effect anything for the Oilers, why can't they send him down to the AHL on a conditioning stint?
ReplyDeleteA few weeks riding buses, playing against lower league players might do him the world of good. One thing is sure, he's going nowhere in a hurry lately, and for Sam that's almost the worst possible scenario.
PS to Bruce: Why aren't you using your real picture(the bald dude) anymore?
Hunter - I think conditioning stints are very much underutilized. From a logical standpoint, it would make sense to probably have 5-6 of those per year. It would improve the AHL team and allow guys to get into game shape a bit quicker. I guess it comes down to the fact that players are insulted by it and the risk that the player breaks an ankle 'in the minors' or something of the sort.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see more of it myself.
To be sent on a conditioning stint, you still use up a roster spot, and you can't have played in the last two weeks (or something like that).
ReplyDelete@Hunter: I've always used my real name, but the Zorg avatar was an obvious choice the last couple of years, not so much this. *sheds a tear quietly*
ReplyDeleteBaldness runs in the family but I had the recessive gene as it turns out.
I had heard Gagner was limping pretty good, and have openly speculated about how it is likely affecting his play. Tough injury, but tough to sit out while other guys are taking your ice time too. A no-win situation.
Hoil: The draft post is about establishing the 1-5 best math choices for Forwards at your draft point and having the scouts pick the best.
ReplyDeleteEliminates reaches and in lower 1st and upper second should get you NHL players.
I was wrong on RNH. Not justifying. looking for math to help get nhlers in rd1 to 3.
Whitney skating with Petry at Oilers practice today, expected to play tomorrow.
ReplyDeletePlante skating with Hordichuck.
Lines at practice:
94-93-14
4-10-83
28-20-89
55-57-91
5-77
6-58
24-33
Stauffer had a really good interview with Renney yesterday on his show (don't know if they are archived anywhere)
Renney said he's going to use the 17 game losing streak in MIN for motivation for the team.
Says its not often during the season where you can specifically motivate for a single game, but says the group wants to be the one to end the streak.
Renney also was very complimentary about PVR and said a few times that "he's an Oiler for a long, long time if I have anything to say about it"
Take all the above for what its worth and what you paid for it.
Just passing info, not making value judgements.
Didn't rickibear recant out of nowhere on draft day and sign off on RNH right before the proceedings started?
ReplyDeleteI could swear I remember this...
Great idea guys, let's play your worst forward on defence, with your worst defenceman!
ReplyDeleteIf they pull that during a game, I will kill myself in real life.
There's a prospect update on the Oilers website this morning, as well.
ReplyDeleteHenceforth Ryan Nugent-Hopkins shall be known as Spider Man.
ReplyDeleteDidn't rickibear recant out of nowhere on draft day and sign off on RNH right before the proceedings started?
ReplyDeleteThat is correct. The more i looked at draft history. The ratios showed some value but needed to be context structured.
I realized a few days before the draft. Math may not show a failure. but it could get you the best 1-5 players to select at that point.
Since Gagner our draft department has been choosing from that best 1-5 by math.
So you hope the scouts pick the best at that point.
2007: Gagner 2nd in NHL PPG from draft
2008: Eberle 2nd in NHL PPG from Draft
2009: MP 6th in NHL PPG behind Tavares, Duschene, Kane, Johansson, Smith(2008 first draft eligble year)
2010: Hall second in PPG behind Skinner.
Take the best math group with scout input.
RNH did not have player who could generate space and be as much of a concern as him when in red deer.
His three linemates, Smyth, Hall , Eberle. Who do you pick?
If they pull that during a game, I will kill myself in real life.
ReplyDeleteIs there some other way you can kill yourself?
Klefbom played tonight, first game back from the concussion, but I can't get the stupid interwebs to give me a scoring summary.
ReplyDeleteh/t to Martin of Swedish Oil by dohfOs
After watching the 6 month debate here (and elsewhere), the most remarkable thing to me is not the failure of a pure boxcars approach to the draft. It was the general consensus that the draft was a weak one (determined to be a sad point for the Oilers who held the first overall) with 4 or 5 players very close in quality, but all with nicks in their game to make you think twice about choosing them. "There is no Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin in this draft" was repeated often implying no one of their caliber to choose from.
ReplyDeleteI realize it is early, but I still think it is fair at this point to ask how did we get the assessment of the top talent at the draft so wrong? I wonder if there was never a doubt among the scouts since I recall several GM's at the lottery saying they had their eyes on one guy. Bryan Murray later admitted he wanted the lottery win badly to draft RNH. Maybe we're not very good at analyzing the draft?
I am forever going to ignore the prognostications of "strong draft/weak draft" which, incredibly, are made sometimes more than a year before the draft, yet seemingly can't be determined until well after.
Interesting discussion. I'll add a few points:
ReplyDelete- I said it before and I'll say it again: as of last season, the WHL was still the toughest CHL league to rack up points. The QMJHL had a marginally lower GF/GP last season but was almost 1% higher in shooting pct. If you agree with this assessment, then RNH's attributes and overall body of work in the WHL as an 18 yr old entering the draft were actually quite significant, which include:
1) scoring over 100 points,
2) leading his team in scoring by a nice margin both in terms of raw pts and pts/game (say by 20 pts which is .28 pts/game over 72 games),
3) is at least 6-ft tall with no skating concerns,
4) still has 2 more years of regular (i.e. non-overage) junior eligibility remaining post-draft (i.e. he's not one of those late-birthdates who has benefitted from the extra development edge).
5) played on a team where defensive responsiblity does not seem like an afterthought. In fact, that Red Deer team had the 20th lowest GA/GP of all CHL teams since 1970.
Any one of these attributes/accomplishments may not tell you much. But in recent WHL history, I'm not sure too many consensus top 5 propects was able to meet all the above criteria, or something similar. I think Marleau might have been the closest.
- There was article done at copperandblue where goal events were used to estimate the ES TOI of both RNH and Couturier. RNH was estimated to have played 14 min/game, Couturier was estimated to have played 17 min/game. So it would seem to me that RNH might not have hit 20 mins/game overall, which I think may be on the low side for a star junior player.
- As good as Seguin and Skinner are this season, neither of them are yet trusted to play the centre position on their respective teams. But of course in fairness to Seguin, BOS is a heck of a strong team.
- Someone compared RNH's skating ability to Hemsky's and I would like to add my own two cents. I think RNH is an overall better skater than Hemsky because while Hemsky is an excellent skater on the fly, he's pretty ordinary when he finds himself closely checked in a relatively stationary predicament where a lot of stops & starts are required to evade the checker. RNH has him beat pants down in this aspect and his stop/start ability is probably already ranked among the NHL's best. With so much of the NHL being played in "half court" mode, this is an extremely important attribute.
Chris that was mine. No one else. the people with concerns latched on to that.
ReplyDeleteGuess the saw him good crowd won out.
RNH is 1 out of 10.
I hope you live the rest of your life picking things that are correct 10% of the time. Then tell me how that goes.
This is the least charitable interpretation of my position I can imagine. I specifically am not a saw him good guy. I maintain that the correlations you found in a small sample size -where the criteria for who fit in the sample size seemed to be chosen in an ad hoc way- had little to no value in predicting who would be a good prospect. (I don't mean that to be insulting. I think you could work this up into something good.)
Kris I was over the line!
ReplyDeletemark it 8 dude
ReplyDeleteBruce: I hope Ron's still alive when Skinner hits the Battle of the Blades after he retires!;)
ReplyDeleteWG: it would be nice to hear a "recording" of Renney talking about "PVR."
All: I really don't watch or follow junior hockey because I find it boring. I find pretty much all hockey outside of the NHL boring unless I have a vested interest, ie old AHL days of watching the Bulldogs visit here.
So, I didn't have a strong opinion on 93 and certainly no inkling he would be this impressive. The kid tries in is own end and can pick pockets all ready. And he looks to be all-fucking-world on the PP. Put it this way: I'm an 83 guy but the keys to the PP should be 93's and 93's alone.
As for 4 vs Seguin, if 4 doesn't pick it up while playing with 10/83 then we can stop talking about Seguin doing it because he has better linemates. When I see 14 always cutting to the middle and changing the angle for his shot, it makes me think of how 4 never does this. And he still can't get back to the point he was pre-Dorsett last year.
I hope 6 isn't coming back too soon. I don't trust his durability or judgement and I would just as well have waited until next Monday when you can control the matchups just a little bit. Nice idea to pair him with 58 though. I believe they were friendly last year and 6 had some good things to say about him, right?
rickibear,
ReplyDeleteSince we are all groovey now; if I was ever foolish enough to get into a fight, I would take you with me on my side any time. You are like a pit bull when you latch your teeth into something.
Speaking of Gagner's ankle, wasn't everyone raving about how much faster he seemed to be at the start of the season before he was injured? He got some good reviews early.
The kid is not a monster, but even at his slight size he won't be intimidated. Makes you wonder what will happen once he is 30 lbs heavier.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, he's already gained enough that he probably doesn't need to worry about getting murdered. Now, he just needs to get as strong as he can while maintaining his agility, since that's an important tool in his arsenal. Does he need to be more than 180-185?
They still did not win the series with Moneyball and since that pitching staff fell apart, Billy Beane has not done anything with all his "metrics".
Exploiting inefficiencies in the market isn't a guarantee, merely an advantage. Then everyone else caught on and it was business as usual.
The Footage the NFL Won't Show You via Slashdot.
ReplyDeleteThis is the reason I don't bother to watch many regular season games: I spend the whole time trying to guess how the guys I can't see are influencing the play. In the playoffs, traffic is heavy, and if you're not in traffic, most of the time you're not in the play. The exceptions often show up on instant replay. It's tolerable with a few pints.
I watched my squeeze riding her horse not long ago. I spent the entire hour watching the horse's feet and what you can tell by the hoof tracks. In rowing, you can tell a lot by the puddles left behind by the oars. In swimming, Ian Thorpe has such huge floppy feet he is maybe the first swimmer in history who brings his hands out of the water ahead of the puddle created by slicing them in. The trained eye can pick up on edge work.
For most TV sports coverage, they give a guy a psychedelic jacket and expect you to believe what he says. (For his last ever broadcast, the aging pipe organ should strut a turtleneck tie-die msucle shirt and admit he's engaged to his Swedish masseuse. He doth protest too much.)
On draft precision, I think Rich Winter is speaking out of his butt trumpet. You can't get 80% picking blue chip insurance funds for cripes sake. In most spheres of life, adding advanced analytics maybe gets you from 20% to 30%. Sometimes it doesn't get you anything at all. Crunching the numbers is a crap shoot, every case is different.
The durability sweepstakes alone makes your head spin. How would you even score a success rate above 50%? The closest I can come up with is that no guy picked outside of the first round winds up in the HOF. Is it possible to have HOF potential as a teenager that's impossible to notice? We'll know how well we're doing twenty years from now. Nice.
Even in chess you suffer attrition, and not just from chair splinters. Fischer was already on course to go over the deep end as a young adult. Tick, tick, tick, when does he blow?
At age 11 Joshua Waitzkin played Kasparov to a draw (in fairness, Kasparov had 58 other boards to deal with). But then as a young adult, Joshua's focus shifted from push wood to push hands (a discipline of the martial art Tai Chi) in which he has won thirteen National Championships and two World Championship titles. His movie should have been titled "Searching for Sherlock Holmes". He's the guy who could maybe pull off the Robert Downey Jr scene in the boxing ring.
What do you know at age eleven? Or seventeen? Hand Richie Rosencrantz a crack pipe, he seems to know its stops from stem to stern.
That said, I think it's not too soon to revise Prospect Grade: 8.5 C upward. A pessimist would revise to 8.5 B. An optimist would revise to 9.5 C. (The legend explains that a B means could fall a full point, a C means could fall two full points.) I'm leaning toward optimism from what we've seen so far. Extreme optimism: the kid has a loooong ways to go to realize the celestial headroom. Anything below 8 would qualify as a bogey at this point (amazing thing to concede after just twenty games), 8 is par, 8.5 is birdie, 9 is an eagle, 9.5 is an eagle save from the worst bunker in Scotland involving some tricky stick work no-one thought possible that we are all dying to see.