If only it was Jim Dorey.
Based on the defensemen the Leafs probably consider available, if true this could end very badly for the Oilers.
Thursday, October 6, 2011
Long Gone Gagner?
If only it was Jim Dorey.
Based on the defensemen the Leafs probably consider available, if true this could end very badly for the Oilers.
"Gunnarson likely the D Leafs would want to move." (for Gagner) - Cox
ReplyDeleteWe don't even know if RNH will pan out, most likely he will, best we keep Gagner to see.
ReplyDeleteThe leafs are too high on their young D and IMO they overvalue them. Unless the trade knocks Tambo's socks off, tell TO to take a hike.
I really am not concerned. Tambellini has his flaws, and they are legion, but trading someone for less than 100 cents on the dollar is not one of them. The worst trade he's made was the Penner, of course, but even though we think they should have kept Penner in Edmonton, it's hard to argue that the return wasn't fair market value (or better!) when you consider what other people were going for around the same time.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, of course, I would probably pull the trigger on a Gagner for Schenn trade, though I doubt that's on the table.
ReplyDeleteGagner and Omark for Schenn
ReplyDeleteHow is the Penner trade bad, especially now when he might be injured with a lower body inury.
ReplyDelete"Gagner and Omark for Schenn"
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not.
I understand trading Sam for a Dman, much as I enjoy him as a player, but don't top up to get an overrated T.O. Dman. Two point-scoring forwards for one non-elite defenceman is a bad deal.
I can't imagine why the Oilers would even consider moving Gagner at this point especially to the Leafs who, as was already pointed out, chronically overvalue their players. Some people think that because Gagner is entering his 5th season and hasn't hit his scoring stride yet, it means he's a bust. Dude only just turned 22. Granted, this season is a huge moment for Sam to start producing, but moving him for a mediocre d-man (we've got plenty, thanks) would be a mistake that would haunt the Oil for years to come.
ReplyDeleteGunnarsson is a nice defenseman. I like him. He's not overrated and he would immediately improve the Oilers' top four, even when everyone is healthy (spoiler alert: that will probably never happen).
ReplyDeleteThat said, he's not worth Gagner. Unless the Leafs' 1st is involved in the deal, I'd be very disappointed in a deal where Gagner was traded for Gunnarsson.
Sam Gagner value is not high at the moment, he is only 22, this would be a terrible time to trade him.
ReplyDeleteLeafs have Gunnarson paired with Phaneuf for tonights opener while Franson is out. Speculation is that Burke is show-casing Gunnarson for a trade.
ReplyDeleteI don't know enough about Gunnarson to make an educated evaluation, so I'll leave that to others.
But I'll certainly be watching Gunnarson closely tonight.
I'm scared/ We can have Anton Stralman for nothing, as he didn't make the devils and was never offered a contract. I like Stralman better then any of the Leaf options we would get for Gagner.
ReplyDeleteSee copper and blue article
http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/10/6/2468958/oilers-should-sign-anton-stralman
The elusive RH offensive defenseman. We found the elusive 3rd line PK and faceoff centre, now go get for free the other whale
verification word: chumps = the Oilers if we deal Gagner for komisarek or anyone other then Schenn from the Leafs
Well this is where it gets interesting. The trade Gagner beat has been pretty steady for some time now but having ripped him for a couple of years now for not being the number one pivot that he would never be there is now angst that we are only getting midling return?
ReplyDelete"inger" as in as long as the d-man back doesn't begin with Jeff F
Does a young and budding top end 2nd line C bring back a young and budding top end 2nd pairing Dman?
ReplyDeleteDunno. And not so sure Gunnarson is that guy. However, I have seen Stralman play in person a couple fo times and I would say he is not the answer. He is very similar to Chorney in size and talent.
This could all be a ploy too to get McCabe to sign a one year deal. Who the hell knows any more in this day and age of misinformation tactics?
@DarrenDreger
ReplyDeleteDarren Dreger
@garygambin. Oilers are looking for a D-man, but I'm told Gagner not in discussions. Maybe that changes...in time.
Some relief?
The women in the office haven't stopped talking about Kesler's rippling muscles all damn morning.
ReplyDeleteFussy Britches tweets...
ReplyDeleteOilers trying to move Chorney may go on waivers if no takers APG
Nothing on Gagner...So it's likely a dud rumour.
Ribs:
ReplyDeleteIf they did trade Gagner for a D, they'd need to open a roster spot since Gagner's on the IR, so maybe they need to do something with Chorney to clear space?
Not that I necessarily think anything's up - EDM and TOR might be decent trading partners but probably not for Gagner IMO, unless Schenn is involved which, from what I understand, is unlikely.
Not that there's no deal to be made without Schenn, TOR has a lot of chips, but you'd think EDM would be looking for more of a quality for quality trade with Gagner, not quality for quantity - they already have a bunch of pick and prospect depth.
Yep, the wife asked me if I'd seen the Kesler picture--apparently all over Facebook--the body of a Greek god. Here's hoping this picture is just as ominous as the Souray, Cogliano, and Moreau one.
ReplyDeleteGagner's being the one over rated here. Let's wait to see how he is before we trade him I guess.
ReplyDeleteFranson may be acceptable. He is 24, 6'5 213lbs and is a RH dman. He tore up the AHL for 2 years, and has 2 years NHL experience where he has gotten better each year. Yes losing Gagner hurts our depth and means we break in 2 more rookie centres, however it does help balance out our lineup and adds a top 4 dman who can play the PP. he is not overly physical, but I'll take another Gilbert with more of a shot then what we have. 158 games in the minors, 141 in the NHL and he's played well in the playoffs (6 pts in 12 games last year) and had 29 pts in the regular season, while playing 2nd PP minutes. Add him to our top PP with Whitney, and have Gilbert and Barker on the 2nd unit and we have improved our special teams (with Smid and Peckham/Sutton playing the PK role). And if/when Barker doesn't pan out, you add Petry to the roster and you suddenly have a bunch of good young dmen with all around skills.
ReplyDeleteGagner for Franson from Nashville was what I was requesting back in the Spring, while other teams were playing hockey and we were left with spitballing trade ideas.
ReplyDeleteto those calling schenn a 'not-elite Dman" you're delusional. Gunner is ridiculously underrated. The only Dmen Edm will go after/afford/can get are:
ReplyDeleteKomisarek - ummm.... not straight up that is for sure
Gunnerson - Edm fans will cry, but he is solid on both ends of the ice. one of those players you dont notice on D, which is exactly what every team hopes for.
Franson - his D is suspect, but slick and a solid prospect
Lashoff - underrated too, doesnt get enough love.
Gagner has played 4 years and hasnt really gotten that much better. Most players break out in their 3-4th year, it is very rare to break out later. Edm doesnt need him nearly as much as everyone wants and could easily take on a Lashoff/Bozak for him. Not to mention hes played less then 70 games the last 2 yrs and only 71 the yr before. trade him while he is still worth something.
personally, i wouldnt want him
oh, and there is not a effing chance TO gives up schenn. not for gagner. bahahahah. if you thing so, you're high as a bird. schenn has improved pts, hits, blocks SOG every yr while dropping his PIMs down. he is a sick shutdown guy and improving constantly. Ganger is stagnent and injured constantly, siiickkkkkkkkkkkkk
ReplyDeleteyou want schenn, offer eberle
Adam - I agree that it is hard to argue about the return on Penner, but there are a lot of people around who seem to be willing to do so (using terms like robbery).
ReplyDeleteArchie - Post trade injuries really are not fair to include in the evaluation (unless it was a known issue prior). If you trade a 5th overall trade for Crosby and the next day Crosby cuts his leg off with a hacksaw (due to post concussion confusion), you still won the trade even though fate was not good to you.
ReplyDeleteThe Penner trade was fair value (in my opinion) due to the limited term left on his contract and the quality of the player.
With regards to this rumour, isn't Damian Cox a bit of a nutbar who should be ignored?
ReplyDeleteMaybe I have him confused with someone else.
Damien Cox's schtick is awful but the rumor is he's getting fed info from the Leafs.
ReplyDeleteEarlier this summer he "forecasted" the Nashville trade.
I flipped to Sportsnet last night and they had Cox, Maclean, and Kypreos on the panel. They wrapped up their bit and went to a clip of Roger Millions. Yikes.
ReplyDelete@ bookie:
ReplyDeleteFrom what I remember, Cox is a blowhard. But TOR management could be using him as part of their strategy to overvalue their assets.
Eventually you do have to trade something of value to get something back of value. But I'm not seeing anything that says Gunnarson for Gagner is a good deal.
Also, it would make sense that the Oiler try to waive Chorney to send him down to OKC if you think one or both of Smid/Whitney are going to be available to start the season. Nice to see we're not over-valuing AHL skaters anymore.
word verification: rumers - that's what Damien Cox lives on, rumers none of which are true.
Gunnarsson is a pretty good player imo. Not sure if he's worth Gagner, he's up and down the lineup but I think he handles the toughs pretty well. Leafs have Aulie back in the minors and Franson as their seventh so they are surely looking to move someone and it seems Gunnarson is being showcased if he's playing with Phaneuf.
ReplyDeleteThing is Gagner makes no sense for the Leafs really. He is hurt and they already have Grabovski, Connolly and Lombardi up the middle as well as Bozak, Staekel and Dupuis lower down the depth chart.
I would think the Leafs would be more in the market for a LW who can play with Fat Phil Kessel.
If Tambo makes any sort of trade for Komisarek they should hang him in the town square. And we can forget about Schenn. Kid is raw but he's good. Leafs aren't trading him.
Brian Burke is a lot of things, many of them unsavoury, but he isn't stupid.
ReplyDeleteAs an opposing GM, I might see this when I look at trading for Sam Gagner:
- high draft pick, good pedigree
- good work ethic with regards to offseason conditioning
- has spent 4 developmental years in the NHL, some under coaches who stress defensive responsibility (MacTavish, Renney)
- underlying numbers have improved somewhat year over year
- appears to have improved a major weakness over the last offseason (skating: agility, speed, balance)
- is down the depth chart due to injury and the new kid(s) on the block at centre
- value is low due to perception amongst local fanbase and possibly management that his development is stagnating
Gagner's situation screams "buy low", and some savvy GMs might pick up on that. Brian Burke might be that GM, if there is indeed anything to this rumour. It'd be funny if we did actually trade the next Doug Gilmour to Toronto.
I'm thinking they're after Harski, due to Finnish truculence.
ReplyDeleteYea, funny. *squirm*
ReplyDeleteI have a weird image rolling in my head Lowetide, of you sitting in a recliner watching the PHI/BOS game tonight, grinding your teeth into a fine dust when Couturier's on the ice.
ReplyDeleteHeard Bob and the boys comparing Couturier to Jordan Staal on TSN last night. Nice pick.
ReplyDeleteHow can they try to sell Gunnarsson like that when they benched him not so long ago?
ReplyDeleteSchenn is overrated. So young, yet so one dimensional. (Haha, what world do you live Artigaz)
Really i'm okay with Gunnarsson, he's a good guy, just not Gagner-worth.
Ribs: Couturier almost doubled Jordan's production tough.
ReplyDeleteI'd call him more Eric than Jordan.
Gagner has played 4 years and hasnt really gotten that much better. Most players break out in their 3-4th year, it is very rare to break out later.
ReplyDeleteThat is because most players start in the NHL at age 20-21.
When you look at the numbers forwards start hitting their "professional" gear at age 22-23.
On average the peak production for forwards are years 23-28.
Gagner already has decent 2nd line C production and will probably be one of the better 2C's in the league in terms of offensive production in the next 5 years.
I only like Gunnarson coming back but Gagner is worth more, need a 2nd or 3rd added. (obv. would love Schenn, but that isn't happening)
Wouldn't do it for Franson, Oilers already have lots of 3rd pairing guys with suspect defensive skills. Be very wary of any player that Poile gives up on.
See: Jones, Ryan.
Also,
ReplyDeletere: production.
There are obvious exceptions to the rule, and really high end players can product more early and later, but look at many of your favorite forwards over the years, most don't do much until 22-23 years old, with the exceptions often being players who are considered Hall of Fame worthy.
Gagner will never be a Hall candidate, but will have a solid career.
Gagner and Omark for Schenn
ReplyDeleteNoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Schen faced bottom second pair comp with higher teamates and was not above the league average. so we want to pay 3.6M to a palyer who cannot handle protectd minutes.
Christ cam barker was free and is paid less.
Matheson chimed in on his Oil Spills blog to say they might move 89 but he'd say it would have to be for a top three Dman.
ReplyDeletePersonally I think he's gonna be moved because of the emergence of 57-93 but I hope we have patience before doing so.
and there doesn't appear to be a quality for quality deal with the Leafs
ReplyDeleteYour all channelling Pierre Mcguire on Schenn. Christ peckham faced the other teams first with the worst teamates. one of the toughest situations in the league and had a better GA. Better.
ReplyDeleteGunerson faced upeer second level comp with 3rd line teamates and was better than league average. that makes him a top 4 dman.
I am hoping for a We got Gardiner and can dump Aulie and gunnerson for gagner.
I agree with Woodguy. Gagner is 21. The Sedins did eff all till they were 23 or 24. Unless it is for a sure bet young second pairing defensmen, it is too early to trade Gagner.
ReplyDeleteGagner has improved a lot over 4 years that is NOT reflected in merely looking at goals and assists.
We've endured all the training. It would be a shame to give up on him now.
I'd offer Pitlick or Hamilton (and Chorney or Plante) for Gunnarson. I'd hate doing it, but one has to trade something to improve the defense now.
ReplyDeleteYour all channelling Pierre Mcguire on Schenn. Christ peckham faced the other teams first with the worst teamates. one of the toughest situations in the league and had a better GA. Better.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, he does have muscular thighs.
Schenn 5v5 GA/60 2.64
Peckham 5v5 GA/60 2.60
Schenn 5v5 SV% .915
Peckham 5v5 SV% .916
You are also right in that Schenn had better team mates and worse comp, its an eye opener.
Then again, Schenn is only 21 (22 Nov 2nd) and will get better, but I prefer a Dman who can play top 3 now.
I'd offer Pitlick or Hamilton (and Chorney or Plante) for Gunnarson. I'd hate doing it, but one has to trade something to improve the defense now.
ReplyDeleteBurke needs help now and Gunnarson is legit NHL Dman, no sale.
If we are going move Gagner I would swing for the fences. Assemble a very good and young (cheap) package of talent and offer it to Nashville for either Suter (if he will sign for 3+ years) or, preferably Weber.
ReplyDeleteNashville cannot afford Suter, Weber and Rinne and must sign Rinne. Make it worth Nashville while to trade a great D man for a very very good package.
Only assets not in play: Hall, Eberle, MPS, the Nuge and this years # 1.
Our D then has an elite top pairing
Trade would be expensive
Nashville has to consider it because it cannot sign all 3 and needs competitive team to be able to convince players that stay that they are trying to win
ReplyDeleteWe would have to give up very very good players to get Weber...... Gagner, ( Gilbert or Petry) (Hamilton or Pitlick) and a high pick or junior prospect
Woodguy said...
ReplyDelete"Gagner already has decent 2nd line C production and will probably be one of the better 2C's in the league in terms of offensive production in the next 5 years."
You sure about that WG?
Kesler
Richards
Statsny
Pavelski
Grabovski
Couture
Skinner
Berglund
Krejci
Zajac
Evander Kane
And, of course, Johansen, Hubderdeau, Zibanejad, Strome and Schiefile all look like they'll be players.
I'd think you would have to break into the top ten to be "one of the better #2C's in offensive production".
Can't see that at all since many young centres have already passed Gagner by.
TOJ: Idk. Maybe they'l just flush Rinne and land on Lindback.
ReplyDeleteKane doesn't play center at all. Skinner spent most of the season at RW. Pavelski is going to spend most of this season on LW.
ReplyDeleteEven counting those guys Gagner could easily become as good as most your list except for maybe three or four. That would probably count as one of the better second line centers.
Grabovski
ReplyDeleteCouture
Skinner
Berglund
Krejci
Zajac
Evander Kane
Don't think it's all that hard to argue that Gagner can/will be better than any of these guys. Very few younger than him (Skiner, Kane are the only ones I believe), and only a handful of them have put up significantly better numbers than Gagner; and the ones that did may hay with guys like Parise and Thornton...
You know, considering how many people are offering Ganger+Omark for stuff right now, if we were to include Kytnar, Plante, and Marincin (Nash trade for the 2nd that selected him), we could trade away everything we got from the 2007 entry draft in one trade.
ReplyDeleteI think we lost the rights to William Quist a while ago, but he might go too.
Besides, who can turn down a trade involving 5 assests?
In the words of Peter Griffin:
C'Mon.... C'mon...
guisess: There do seem to be a lot of guisess about Sam's future in Oil City.
TV told me Kane is playing center this season for some reason.
ReplyDeleteFPB
ReplyDeleteYou are right Nashville may be prepared to take a downgrade in goal to keep a top D pairing together. I would not but Poile/Trotz are pretty smart
If so assemble a lower value package for Rinne unless you think Dubnyk will become a top 10 goalie
My concern is that Hemsky is in play as Burke looks for a set up man for his finisher.
ReplyDeleteAnd if it's Hemsky, I would be wanting more than Gunnarson back.
Blogger wants to me to stay signed in so Google can leave tracking cookies in place on my browsers.
ReplyDeleteAny idea when the migration will begin, LT? Please let it be soon.
Boy, I just can't wait to be rid of that Gagner fellow. I just hope he is closely followed by Hemksy so that this team can finally be good.
ReplyDeletespOiler - You can check off the "Stay Signed In" box when you sign in if you're afraid of the cookie monsters.
ReplyDeleteWe should trade Gagner for Hannan and White.
ReplyDeleteThat way, we would get rid of Gagner for nothing and slightly improve the defence as we could've done in the offseason for nothing.
Let's trade Gagner for exotic animals and build our gameplan based on chaos and confusion.
ReplyDeleteReally don't think the Lowilers will make a trade with Burke.
ReplyDelete1. Pronger
2. Penner
Off topic, but it makes me feel better to see that other teams make decisions based on waiver politics as well:
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2011/10/05/stefan-elliott-to-the-minors-bad-decision/8446/
I wonder what a player like Elliott would cost. This is sort of the time I feel is best for picking up defensemen. When they have shown they will likely be good players but haven't established themselves yet.
Players like this seem like good bets, and the cost only gets higher once they are established.
I felt this way about Blum last year and there are others besides Elliott out there, but isn't "on the verge" the most cost effective way to find top 4 type players without the uncertainty of drafting them?
Ribs, as per my OP, that is exactly what I do not want to do, lol.
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't make much sense.
ReplyDeleteThe Leafs already have four smallish, not very physical, second line centers in Bozak, Grabovsky, Connelly and Lombardi.
Why would they want to pick up another?
I'm open to trading Gagner for a defenseman of roughly equivalent value, but people who are characterizing him as currently or imminently superfluous are the following:
ReplyDelete1. Wrong
"Gagner already has decent 2nd line C production and will probably be one of the better 2C's in the league in terms of offensive production in the next 5 years."
ReplyDeleteYou sure about that WG?
2010/2011 5v5 PTS/60 and age at beginning of 10/11 Season:
Kesler 2.00 (26 years old)
Richards 2.07 (25 years old)
Statsny 1.83 (24 years old, was 1C)
Pavelski 2.04 (26 years old)
Grabovski 2.06 (26 years old,was 1C)
Couture 2.18 (21 years old)
Skinner 2.49 (18 years old)
Berglund 1.76 (22 years old)
Krejci 2.76 (24 years old)
Zajac 1.55 (25 years old)
Evander Kane 1.81 (19 years old)
Gagner 1.91 (21 years old)
Yeah, pretty sure.
Awful idea.
ReplyDeleteLet Sam get healthy, play the season and establish his true value.
Then make the decision to sell him or not.
Selling low for a low level need (bottom 2 defenseman) that should have been taken care of already would be super dumb.
The thing about Gagner is you've put this much time into him, why in hell flush him now?
ReplyDeleteSkinner was a real beauty last year.
ReplyDeleteCAR has his as 1LW w/ Staal and Rutuu on their current depth chart with Joikenen 2C and Sutter 3C.
The thing about Gagner is you've put this much time into him, why in hell flush him now?
ReplyDeleteExactly.
Unless its Blum coming back.
Gunnarsson isn't enough and adding a pick to make it even doesn't help fill the hole.
I like Gunnarsson, but he's not quite enough.
spOiler - You don't want to uncheck the little box when you sign in? Alrighty.
ReplyDeleteWe're likely not going to get away from a sign-in/cookie saving process when we move over to wordpress, though.
All,
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with malware etc, since I started surfing in a sandbox.
www.sandboxie.com
Your registry doesn't get all bogged down with a bunch of crap too.
Every time I'm done surfing I just clean the sandbox and cookies, etc are all gone.
Its free, but they accept donations.
I'm on hiatus this week, short of a major deal, or--I suppose--short of a major deal stress hug.
ReplyDeleteThe Sedins absolutely killed in the first few months of their rookie season. Then the bitters went out on how to push them around and every vet in the league who didn't wish to become a jockstrap teather pole on the evening highlight reel quaffed deeply.
Last I looked, Gagner still outpaces Henrick through the same number of seasons. His rookie season was the anamoly here. The Oilers weren't frightening anyone enough for anyone to quaff a bitter brew just to neutralize one slight rookie. If you cut his rookie season in half, his progression would be just fine, considering his age and build.
It's interesting to observe the psychological dissonance between loss aversion and what-have-you-done-for-me-lately. As someone we keep, he's on the shit list for not progressing fast enough; as someone we might risk losing, we're ape shit that he might be poised on the knife edge of manhood.
Gagner is going to be a pretty good player, probably sooner rather than later. Maybe not everything projected, but there's no shame in falling short of Gilmore. Even if Gilmore wasn't putting up numbers, I bet he was easier to build around, with more of the grit intangibles.
Gagner would be a slam dunk to retain if he wasn't killing us in the face-off dot in addition to not bringing much truculence in a roster spot where most teams would slot a wrecking ball. For what Horcoff brings, Gagner is not the ideal complement. One side of this formula permits solutions; the other side is a Yellowstone blow hole. I predict the next erruption in ten minutes.
I continually shake my head over the sentiment that all the GMs sitting around the poker table suffer large gaps in their player valuations. Fans often construct this view of a transaction, because players who are under valued by the fan base can be transacted with less alka-seltzer. This doesn't mean the GMs bought into what the fans think, but they are 100% aware that the sentiment of the fan base colours the optics.
If the fan base has crazy valuations (of course they do, management encourages this), it's a fairly major consideration in when to pull the trigger--and not because the GM sucks at player evaluation.
After the Penner deal, Tambi had to replace at least one pair of asbestos underpants. Penner would have allowed us to win more games on less improvement. Is that the right way to manage the future? Colorado was critized for becoming too good too fast. (Why settle for one booster shot when you can have three?)
How about setting up the team so that winning is impossible without the players growing into men? On that view, I don't cry over the big engine that wouldn't, unless the mesquite briquettes were carefully raked by the one and only OTC. Penner is like an old muscle car where you have to buy 93 octane or the plugs gum up. From time to time you can fill with regular octane and the engine purrs while you lay down the 4.4 and you think, hey, this old boat rocks; a season later, you're back to ungumming the plugs with 93 octane again, and every time you drop the hammer the engine knocks and pings and then reluctantly lays down a rather pathetic patch of rubber that only makes you moan worse.
From Tambi's side, what do you do when your fan base simultaneously undervalues what a player has already become (where's-the-big-man-step-lately) and overvalues what a player might become (shudders with loss aversion over receiving anything less than a lynchable offense for the GM on the other side)?
Blogger Lowetide said...
ReplyDeleteThe thing about Gagner is you've put this much time into him, why in hell flush him now?
Can we call this the Pouliot Principle?
Woodguy said...
ReplyDeleteYeah, pretty sure.
Last time I looked power play production was an important part of the game. Try again.
Your initial claim that he would be among the best second line in 5 years has nothing to do with his age.
He's either among the top producers or he isn't.
He's already been passed on the Billboard Top 100 by several young centres and the list is growing every year.
If your next gambit is to refer to how many points others from his (very weak) draft year have scored, my eyeballs are going to bleed.
Watch Voracek blow him away this season.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteLast time I looked power play production was an important part of the game. Try again.
You're right. 5v5 production means nothing.
Your initial claim that he would be among the best second line in 5 years has nothing to do with his age.
He's either among the top producers or he isn't.
I've shown you the lists of players and their progression.
Do I need to show you how far ahead of Kesler and many others that Gagner is at the same age again?
He's already been passed on the Billboard Top 100 by several young centres and the list is growing every year.
You keep saying this, but never prove it.
If your next gambit is to refer to how many points others from his (very weak) draft year have scored, my eyeballs are going to bleed.
Way to dimsiss with a wave of your biased hand the fact that he's the 2nd leading scoring from his draft year, behind only Kane, well done.
Watch Voracek blow him away this season.
Vorachek is playing RW with Briere, I though we were talking centers? Moving the bar again because every argument you had is wrong?
Damn you Tambo! How could you trade Gagner??
ReplyDeleteOh, he hasn't been traded? Carry on then.
If I am Tambo I know that eventually I have to trade Gagner and want to find out what Burke might be offering. I'd have the same talk with a bunch of teams and then have a good sense of where the market might be by midseason.
Last time I looked power play production was an important part of the game. Try again.
ReplyDeleteOk.
Here is every player on your list in their 21 year old year.
Straight up points per game.
If they haven't had a 21 year old year, I'll menion it.
If they didn't play in the NHL at 21, I'll put their first real year (>20 games) in the NHL.
Age matters.
Statsny 0.95
Skinner 0.77 (18 years old, not a C)
Couture 0.71
Gagner 0.62
Pavelski Not in NHL 0.61 at age 22
Evander Kane 0.59 (19 years old, also listed as LW on NHL.com, not C)
Richards 0.54
Zajac 0.53
Krejci 0.48
Grabovski Not in NHL 0.375 at age 23
Berglund 0.37
Kesler 0.28
Remember, this is your list, not mine.
Age matters.
I like this new Luongo.
ReplyDeleteWeekes is the worst commentary man period.
ReplyDeleteAgreed with the general sentiment around here.I wouldn't trade Gagner for anything that TO has except Schenn-and he isn't going anywhere.
ReplyDeleteGunnarson and Franson are nice pieces but I wouldn't move Gagner for either of them.
Renney
per the Oilers website
-Chorney is good to go
-Whitney and Smid are close
Can't believe Benoit got out of the inning with the lead.
ReplyDeleteI think God punished the Yankees for the band-aid thing.
ReplyDeleteSwisher struck himself out. He has some horrendous percentage for hits with men on base in the PS.
ReplyDeleteLT: Band Aid thing?
ReplyDeleteI was sure that was gone.
ReplyDeleteAvila's gotta run faster. It's the playoffs.
ReplyDeleteNo Yankees, no Red Sox.
ReplyDeleteNow if the Phillies lose tomorrow that the top 3 spenders in MLB gone. (I think they are top 3)
Baseball would be more fun to watch if there were a cap.
Well I see Delmon getting the shape of his brother.
ReplyDeleteKinda chubby for an OF.
FPB: The Yankee manager (used to catch, can't remember his name) came out and asked the umpire to remove Benoit's band-aid.
ReplyDeleteIt was the world's largest band-aid, but still it was a typical Yankee assclown move.
@ WG.
ReplyDeleteKeep trying.
I don't really see how he needs to, at this point.
Trading Gagner now seems very short-sighted. If RNH and Lander are able to stick (not a sure thing yet), sure that give us 1 too many Cs for this year. But Horc and Belanger are on the other side of the mountain. If we trade Gagner, who will our Cs be once they're done? Are we banking on RNH, Lander, Martindale, Pitlick?
ReplyDeleteI'd rather keep Gagner in that equation.
Straight Up For Schenn!
ReplyDeleteBtw, my blog will have it's annual fearless predictions(Oilers I place at 6th), sometime by the end of the week.
Seriously, Gagner looked bloody good before he got hurt. Keep the bum for another season!
Anyone see Luongo's performance tonight? I know it's only game 1, and Fleury let in a gager too, but good God, he looked like he had Tourettes. Picked up right where he left off in the finals.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite Bandaid Ballgame ever!
ReplyDeleteWG says
ReplyDeleteAge matters.
Does it?
Getzlaf
Kopitar
Stamkos
Duchene
Skinner
Staal
Couture
Statsny
Among many, all had has better 21 year old seasons.
So, how much does age matter?
Gagner is NOT in that conversation.
Smyth-Belanger-Eberle
ReplyDeleteHemsky-Nuge-Hall
PRV-Horcoff-Omark
for Sunday, as per spiked hair boy on Oiler site.
Auspicious: Canucks bag the season opening loser point.
ReplyDeleteDSF: As a general rule, 6'4" 220 pounds buys you a year or two.
I mentioned once before that I had a friend growing up who was close to his adult 6'6" by the time he reached seventh grade (on schedule, he was no dummy). I didn't reach 6'5" until I was nearly 20.
After a growth spurt, your neuro-muscular timing takes a fair while to stabilize.
Gagner did not come equipped with the Taylor Hall luggage rack of heroic portage. We all knew that a long time ago. Well, most of us did, but some of us have matured more slowly than others.
DSF
ReplyDeleteGagner's physical assets are average compared to the guys you mention. He is neither big, nor fast. His biggest asset is his intelligence.
Gagner is making slow steady progress in his overall game. A good second line centre, which is what he is projecting too, is nothing to sneeze at, especially now that one has Nugent-Hopkins and Hall.
The Oilers will have the wingers to play with him.
WG says
ReplyDeleteAge matters.
Does it?
Getzlaf
Kopitar
Stamkos
Duchene
Skinner
Staal
Couture
Statsny
Among many, all had has better 21 year old seasons.
So, how much does age matter?
Gagner is NOT in that conversation.
I say that Gagner will be a good to very good 2C and you now try to refute me by saying he's not as good as this group of elite 1st line players?
Yeah, umm, that's why I said he's a 2C and not a 1C (or 1W like some you listed)
Every single player you listed is playing on a 1st line this year except Couture.
At no time did I say Gagner was in the conversation with those guys.
Way to move the goalposts and try to change the argument....again.
You obviously ignored this part of my post:
There are obvious exceptions to the rule, and really high end players can product more early and later, but look at many of your favorite forwards over the years, most don't do much until 22-23 years old, with the exceptions often being players who are considered Hall of Fame worthy.
Gagner will never be a Hall candidate, but will have a solid career.
Keep trying....
Sure I'll do Gagner for Gunnarson... but they have to take Khabi too. :P
ReplyDeleteI'm being sarcastic BTW.. since Khabi is unmoveable, Gagner+Khabi for Gunner wouldn't happen. I honestly am not interested in that type of D. Not that he's a bad D. I just think that the type of D we need is a right handed D that can take care of his own zone first and foremost with offense being secondary (if it's there.. great.. if not, well, that lowers the cost of what we send in exchange).
ReplyDelete