Thursday, August 18, 2011

RE 11-12: Tom Gilbert

I bet Tom Renney appreciates Tom Gilbert in a big way. After worrying over the new hires and the kids and the injury prone, it must be an absolute pleasure to write Gilbert's name down and slot about 1,800 NHL minutes beside his name.

Gilbert plays in all situations, although his PP number hasn't been exceptional since the days of Lubo and a healthy Sheldon.

At even strength, Gilbert played with 9 different partners during the past year and battled every minute of every game. The results were impressive based on the kinds of players he was facing and the help he was getting.

Tom Gilbert--despite what many Oiler fans will tell you--is miles from being the problem.

NHL prediction for 11-12: 82, 5-23-28 (.342)
  1. Where does he slot in on the depth chart this coming season? Second, behind Whitney when #6 is healthy. I think Gilbert could be part of a solid NHL team as a second pairing D who could help in all situations. I don't think the Oilers will pair Whitney-Gilbert much, although imo it would make a solid top pairing--the best we've seen in awhile in Oiler colors.
  2. Where did Gilbert slot last year? #1 D after Whitney went down. He played the toughest opposition with (mostly) Peckham (39%) or Smid (31%) and still had the club's best CorsiRel among Oilers defenders. 
  3. He's not worth $4M you know. I can think of several contracts the Oilers have given out that give less value than Gilbert on a dollar-for-dollar basis. Would you like the list?
  4. It's fine. But he's overpaid by NHL standards. I'll make you a promise: the moment Edmonton has 5 actual NHL defensemen who can play against tough opposition then we can discuss it. As it is, I'll admit that he's paid well but do not consider him a gross overpay. Is he worth $1M per season more than Andy Greene?
  5. That's not really a fair comparison. NJD were desperate. Right, but the Oilers look at their depth chart on blue and dance a jig. Right?
  6. Why do Oiler fans dislike him so much? Two reasons, I think. First, Gilbert is never going to be as gritty as Jason Smith or Steve Staios and a lot of fans associate grit with defense. When Theo Peckham works along the boards there's physical contact every three seconds, it's a battle. Gilbert is a more effective player, but his plays more of a finesse game.
  7. And you said there was a second reason. I think Gilbert's wide range of skills have been discouraged by the coaching staff. I can't hang it all on coach Renney, Pat Quinn didn't appear to like his defensemen matriculating toward the opposition end: pass it up boys and then follow the play from a distance. Just like Pat Quinn was taught all those years ago.
  8. Earlier, you blamed Quinn for Lubo's departure. What are you on about? Really it was like the Bobby Orr era never happened, and I think it may have had an impact on Gilbert's confidence. There's an entire side to his game that doesn't happen anymore. An example would be sneaking in from the blueline. He used to do that once a game, now he does it once a week.
  9. If this is true, wouldn't Gilbert's scoring rates be off for the last couple of seasons? They are. 5x5 per 60 minutes offense has fallen from 1.30 to .92 to .61 and his 5x4 offense is well off too.
  10. Oh hell, that's because Lubo and Souray are gone and they've been replaced by Smid and Peckham. True no doubt, but I don't see the same player offensively. Tom Gilbert's creative side reached the NHL but it's gone (or less obvious) and something happened to it. I'm not certain if coach Renney is friend or foe in this regard.
  11. What are his strengths? Wide range of skills. Good foot speed, mobile and has the ability to settle things down. Gilbert is a healthy, veteran NHL defenseman and the Oilers could use three more. I can't for the life of me understand how Oiler fans (a hockey mad bunch) fail to see his range of skills.
  12. What are his weaknesses? Gilbert's coverage can break down at times and he is also prone to losing some battles along the boards. The coverage issue is pretty much league wide, there aren't 10 defensemen in the entire league who can go a season without looking exposed a couple of times a week. His offensive play is off from a few seasons ago.
  13. That's a lot of weakness. In the NW division, how many defenseman are an absolute lock to diffuse offensive sorties by the other team? The new rules don't allow for that clutching and grabbing in the neutral zone, so coverage is a lot more read and react. An example: G7 of the eastern conference finals between TBAY and Boston. The two teams battled but couldn't score a goal until very late. Boston caught the Lightning D just a little flat-footed and Bergeron plus Horton had tremendous speed into the offensive zone. The goal was textbook, the defensemen just a little late. Those plays happen in the modern NHL, and Gilbert (like most defensemen) can be exposed in that manner. It doesn't mean he can't play defense.
  14. He needs to be more physical. I disagree. Let's move on.
  15. You don't agree he needs to be more physical? No, I don't. Gilbert is who he is, a quality NHL defenseman with a nice range of skills. Focusing on the things he doesn't do while undervaluing the things he can do? What would a reasonable person call that?
  16. An informed opinion? Well, I'd prefer to say an opinion that will get you 5 hammerheads on the blue every night but call it what you will.
  17. Does it come down to a style preference? I don't think so. I think it comes down to a performance preference. What if Tom Gilbert had the same skill set as he currently owns, but also took a #18 penalty once a night. An absolute shit for brains penalty that involved a stupid overreaction and two minutes in the penalty box.
  18. He'd be a better player? Riiiiight. A better player.

40 comments:

  1. What if Tom Gilbert had the same skill set as he currently owns, but also took a #18 penalty once a night. An absolute shit for brains penalty that involved a stupid overreaction and two minutes in the penalty box.

    This would make many fans happier, sadly.

    tomar: what it is not.

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  2. Who is the best defenseman in the league?

    Lidstrom. And he hasn't hit a soul since he got to the NHL.

    Gilbert ain't Lidstrom, but he is a well above average NHL defenseman who can do a lot of things well. Like Brian Rafalski, he is a excellent passer playmaker, who would have much, much better boxcars with better, more experienced teamates. Think he wouldn't post 50 points with Detroit?

    Good teams -- and genuinely informed fans -- focus on players CAN do, rather than what they CAN'T do. And these teams structure their rosters accordingly.

    Oilers fans can only wish this concept would percolate through the Oilers' management and fan base.

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  3. By my recollection Gilbert has had a slow start to the past two seasons as well. Some frustration might stem from that. Considering that there is probably a substantial dropoff in interest after the 40 game mark of the Oilers' season, we might infer that many fans didn't "see him good" to close out the season.

    I myself recall being quite frustrated with Gilbert's play at the start of last season. Checking quickly, his boxcars for the first 20 games were 3-2-5 and -9. That means he only went -5 for the remainder of the season after injuries struck and the team went into the gutter (again).

    But if I'm really being honest with myself, the thing that bothers me most is his sad hockey hair. Terrible hair.

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  4. How much impact do you think a Steve Smith has on the dmen vs Renney ?

    Do you think Huddy was a positive influence before his purge on a guy like Gilbert ?

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  5. Hi LT, I think we in the Oilersphere tend to forget how good Gilbert appeared not that long ago. He was looked at as a sure thing to make Team USA a year out from Vancouver. That's pretty heady company to be considered a part of and then, it all started to unwind.

    You may have nailed it with the effort to focus on his defensive weaknesses as being a possible cause of his confidence crisis.

    In so many facets of life we are told to address weaknesses in our skill sets. This can move a below average skill back towards average but the cost can sometimes be that our above average skills, by not being nurtured, also slip back to average. When you try and build on your natural strengths you can often move from above average to exceptional in those areas.

    I don't know if there is exceptional aspects to Gilbert's game but perhaps it is time to let Gilbert be Gilbert and see what we have. I am still betting that there is more there than we have seen so far.

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  6. You may have nailed it with the effort to focus on his defensive weaknesses as being a possible cause of his confidence crisis.

    What confidence crisis?

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  7. @Douglas McLachlan: Gilbert does have exceptional aspects to his game, imo: his ability to stay healthy, and (more formerly now than presently) his ability to sneak into the prime scoring areas around the net. Seriously, in his first two years he showed an incredible nack for getting in those sweet spots and sneaking shots through, and with good enough anticipation so as not to hurt the team defensively too often. It was uncanny, and I recall an interview in his rookie year where it was said he only scored like one goal from shooting at the blueline. The problem is he's been forced to take on a much, much bigger role defensively, and he can't risk going into those areas much at all anymore, as he IS the primary d-man at the blueline as opposed to the fourth-forward we saw in his rookie season.

    Tom Gilbert is never likely to approach his rookie goal totals, but he is more than talented enough to be a 30-45 point scorer based on superior passing ability (not as good as Whitney, but still very good) when he doesn't have such big responsibility.

    I know we rag on our d-corps a lot, but I really like each one of Whitney, Gilbert, Smid, Peckham and Petry. Are they the right mix of players to make an effective blueline? Maybe, if they all stay healthy and play close to their potential, maybe not. But I really would take any one of them if I was starting a team of my own. All talented players in their own right.

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  8. Who is the best defenseman in the league?

    Lidstrom. And he hasn't hit a soul since he got to the NHL.


    Suter!

    Lidstrom 40 worst GA/60 for dmen in the league. 2.87GA/60

    More fact less. Mcguire!

    Gilbert: 10 worst GA/60 For Dmen
    3.23GA/60. He was bleeding so bad it was coming out his eyes.

    Give Gilbert soft second line Comp with peckham who was near league average GA/60 (2.60)facing top 20 toughest comp in league.

    Pray to (god, Alla, Vishnu, Brahma, Amida, Buddha, Shaddai-jehovah) that whitney does not get hurt.

    In so many facets of life we are told to address weaknesses in our skill sets. This can move a below average skill back towards average but the cost can sometimes be that our above average skills, by not being nurtured.

    Or you say he can not face toughs, lets play seconds or thirds, and let him kill. (see Shea weber last year without suter)

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  9. Most of the time, Tom Gilbert has been an excellent defender in less than ideal circumstances.

    Where his game has suffered is in the area 10 feet to either side of the opposition blue line. Early in his career he was excellent and confident here; but as of right now he's a bit of a bungler. I suspect he needs to spend some time with a sports psychologist or just learn to turn his brain off and play hockey again. The skill is there.

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  10. The problem is he's been forced to take on a much, much bigger role defensively, and he can't risk going into those areas much at all anymore, as he IS the primary d-man at the blueline as opposed to the fourth-forward we saw in his rookie season.

    This was the point I was going to make as well. It's less on the coaching that he doesn't get the offensive opportunities and more on the circumstances he has to deal with. Give him some help and watch him blossom.

    You don't agree he needs to be more physical? No, I don't.

    But you do agree that he needs to throw more THUNDEROUS BODYCHECKS...Right?

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  11. Those that hate on Gilbert, ignore the combination of:
    1) # of games he plays;
    2) # of shots he blocks;
    3) the injuries to the other D.

    Tom Gilbert has done a lot of heavy lifting without sufficient help, and without a complaint. He is part of the solution if properly surrounded and should be more appreciated.

    Sadly there is a noisy contingent that criticizes all players once they hit a salary threshold that is deemed offensive - this has gone on since the 90's (at least) - regardless of their play or ability.

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  12. It's not about Gilbert being a finesse player that the "average Oiler fan" takes issue with, it's about his inability to box out opposing forwards in front of the net and in the corners. He's 6'3" 200+ and he's constantly outmuscled in his own zone. That can't happen, finesse or not.

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  13. wow, Suter is the best D in the league, who knew?

    Yeah!
    Top 40 for tough comp @ even
    Top 30 PP
    Top 30 PK.

    One other Kronwall

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  14. I totally looked at the picture for the article and Gilbert's eyes aren't even glowing. What a freaking pansy. Shame he's even an NHL player, let alone an Oiler.

    *spits on street, wrestles grizzly bear, laments about the lack of modern day onions on modern day belts*

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  15. I like Gilbert. I do think his problems start with being too weak in the upper body.

    If he would lift weights a bit, he would be able to clear the puck around the glass more consistently, a necessary skill for an NHL D. Likely win a few more battles too.

    I worry thinking about playoffs, the Oilers trapped in their own end, Whitney hurt, Gilbert unable to clear the zone, Smid and Peckham trying to skate the puck out, Barker playing poorly - "flu like symptoms".

    I hope they improve the back end next year. Please.

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  16. FastOil says: I worry thinking about playoffs, the Oilers trapped in their own end, Whitney hurt, Gilbert unable to clear the zone, Smid and Peckham trying to skate the puck out, Barker playing poorly - "flu like symptoms".

    I wouldn't worry yourself thinking about the playoffs. If this defense is good enough to take this team to the playoffs, then a lot of the unknowns will already have been answered (i.e. Whitney's health, Smid & Barker's Top 4 ability, Peckham & Petry's progress, etc). I suspect the defensive corps that finally brings this team back to the playoffs will have some of your concerns allayed.

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  17. Unless there is some magical hockey fairy - the current D doesn't get you to the playoffs

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  18. @rikibear

    I think a strong reason for those GA/60 numbers may be, if you are playing against the other teams top lines more offense is going to happen against you, what matters, is giving your forwards the chance to score as well or better to compensate. There are certainly extreme examples of shutdown players (like Smith, Regehr, Colin White, Stevens as a Devil,) who focus everything on taking away offense, but much less offense because of it. Gilbert/Lidtrom types get things done in a two way role, good comp., good teammates. Everything has to weighed against each other. Give up lots, but still score more = winning. Give up few, but still score less = losing. It's a balance.

    I don't think anyone would argue against that Suter is elite and in his prime, Lidstom is nearing the end, and Gilbert is in over his head. And the numbers reflect that to a degree, but GA/60 can't be definitive on it's own.

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  19. Agree that Gilbert isn't the problem. I lost confidence in ST when he actually became the GM and have doubts about Renney (who I really thought would make a positive difference after Quinn). These are where the problems lie.

    Yes, I would appreciate the list of Oiler players that you deem overpaid. I can guess who some of them are.

    As for Gilbert and the playoffs. It seems the new NHL, aka 2011 Stanley Cup Finals, has morphed back in time. Not quite back to the Broadway Bullies, but the Bruins were tough, aggressive and took no prisoners. And the refs put their whistles away far more often than we would have expected so skill lost out. To me, the Oilers represent the beginning of a skill team, other than for the blue and goal.

    If this is what is required going into the future, the Oilers eventually making the playoffs, IMO the Oilers are not being built for this style of rough and tough play.

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  20. Unless there is some magical hockey fairy - the current D doesn't get you to the playoffs

    You mean like this guy?

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  21. @reg dunlop

    I see your concern about box out - and agree that #77 could be more effective in that area (don't try to stick check there). This makes him not so good on PK.

    However, that same weakness is what makes him strong at puck movement from the boards. Gilbert can pull the puck off the boards, make the chip pass to the C with two forecheckers after him. That would end up in an around the boards fire drill with most of the Oilers D other than Whitney. (Smid too, but he usually just does spinoramas until the forecheckers pressure him again). This makes him pretty good in EV time.

    I don't know how/if he can solve weakness #1 while keeping strength #1 intact.

    BTW - I like his game, think the Oilers need him a lot, don't think he is egregiously overpaid, don't think he is overly soft, and recognize his strengths and weaknesses. Just trying to get the dialogue past the binary responses of:

    soft=bad
    tough=good

    If Gilbert was 4th+ ranked in PPTOI, 1-2 ranked in EVTOI, and toward 5th+ ranked in PKTOI I think that would be matched to his relative strengths and weaknesses.

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  22. Suter appears to be the top defensemen in the league because he is playing on a decent team with one of the best big and complete defensemen in the NHL, Shea Weber.

    If you played him with Theo Peckham or Ladi Smid on an injury decimated squad like the Oilers have been for the last two years, Suter would look a lot like Gilbert.

    Gilbert would be an average to below average first pairing defenseman if you played him with Orpik or Volchenkov.

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  23. I think that what bugs the fans is Gilberts turnovers that turn into goals.At 66 turnovers among the D he was only surpassed by Schenn(81) and Beachemin(66).
    Forwards like Thornton that giveaway a lot are mostly in the offensive zone.D that turnover lead to goals.
    To add to our angst we also had Peckham at 53 turnovers

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  24. To the limited extent that turnover stats are useful (they're measured differently in different rinnks), it's because they correlate so strongly with puck possession.

    (The above is a hypothesis, since as far as I know individual player possession time isn't measured by anybody.)

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  25. Tom Gilbert is not an offensive Dman like Brian Rafalski. To suggest it is unrealistic. One of the 2 of them scored 48 or more points 8 times. I am not referring to Gilbert. Ricki to the extent the numbers say Suter is the best D man in the NHL, the numbers are wrong.

    TG is surprisingly durable, is a decent offensive D man and is ok defensively. He is not physical, ever but he is NOT a problem on the Oilers. At all. He is a decent # 4 on a good team. Even on a real good team.

    Overpaid, yup! Grossly overpaid, nope. The fact that we can point to "more" overpaid players does not make it a value contract.

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  26. @Ribs,

    But is he soft cause he has those wingy things on his back ?

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  27. During one game last season Gilbert stood watching, wide eyed, as a team mate got pounded right in front of him, I think right in front of the Oiler's goal.

    It's fine for Mike Bossy to score 50 goals and play this soft - but a defenceman on a Canadian team?

    You can all bend over backwards to "prove" Gilbert's a good player, and imo he is, but his Sedinesque love of all things nice puts him in Tom Poti territory.

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  28. I appreciate Gilbert's strengths and weaknesses, but the problem I foresee is having both Petry and Gilbert in the line up. Same players and skillsets. Unfortunately the same weaknesses as well, which shouldn't be exposed on two out of the three defense pairings (likely they would not be paired together). Jettison the more expensive Gilbert for a reasonable asset when Petry is ready.

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  29. Briefly changing course - Is it just me that thinks this "verification line" is incredibly stupid and will only add to confusion?

    The puck is very rarely completely flat when it enters the net, rendering the measurement and the line itself meaningless.

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  30. The puck is very rarely completely flat when it enters the net, rendering the measurement and the line itself meaningless.



    If it touches the verification line, it's conclusively over the line. If it doesn't touch the verification line, you're no worse off than this season.

    So it helps some of the time, and is neutral the rest.

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  31. Schitzo - That's what I thought at first; but introducing an additional layer of possible confusion into a possibly game-changing moment may give them another chance to screw up.

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  32. Surely the measure of a defenseman is that fewer goals are scored against than are scored for while he is on the ice.

    Gilbert faced the toughest competition but he also played with best available team mates.

    GFON/60 - 2.30

    GAON/60 - 3.23 (worst among Oiler defensemen)

    Now, you may argue Gilbert's horrendous GA number was the result of him playing with dregs after Whitney was injured but that would not explain why the dregs actually had better stats than Gilbert did.

    If we look at another "soft" defenseman on another crappy team, Kris Russell in Columbus, we see a GAON/60 of 2.53 and GFON/60 of 2.34

    Worth noting that Russell just recently turned 24 and, although being younger, less experienced and smaller also managed similar boxcar numbers as Gilbert with 5G 19A 24P -9.

    Gilbert, of course, was 6G 20A 26P -14.

    Now, I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't want Kris Russell in my top 4 defensemen right now so suggesting Gilbert is "miles from being the problem" pretty much ignores the "math" unless you think Corsi is more important than scoring or preventing goals.

    He is a problem even before you take a sniff of his contract.

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  33. To me it matters less that you give up goals than when you do it.

    When your weakness is directly related to the core role of your position, when the pressure increases your chance of failure increases.

    Gilbert has a lot of ability, he just needs to be more efficient at clearing the zone. Teams playing the Oilers right now are not giving 100%, they are playing the worst team in the league, twice over.

    Any weaknesses that our players currently sport need to be rectified because as the team improves, the challenge to win will increase.

    Gilbert can do it, does he want to? I don't accept he is weak in key areas because the team is weak. His numbers take a slide, but every player, especially guys hitting their prime in key roles, are supposed to be part of the answer, not a victim of the team's play.

    He is not the problem, but I want to see him be part of the answer this year. And little Sammy. For me, this is the last mulligan year.

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  34. LT, you may as well start using WROS for wide range of skills and save yourself 8 million keystrokes a month.

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  35. I appreciate Gilbert's strengths and weaknesses, but the problem I foresee is having both Petry and Gilbert in the line up. Same players and skillsets. Unfortunately the same weaknesses as well, which shouldn't be exposed on two out of the three defense pairings (likely they would not be paired together). Jettison the more expensive Gilbert for a reasonable asset when Petry is ready.

    This sounds a lot like the (highly flawed) RNH/Gagner argument.

    Having more good players is NOT a problem. Not having enough good players IS. And if you end up with multiple good players with similar skill-sets? You tailor your gameplan to suit that rather than lamenting their weaknesses.

    He is a problem even before you take a sniff of his contract.

    As Lowetide alluded to and any sensible person will agree, neither Gilbert, nor his contract are a problem. He's one of the two legit top-four defensemen (i.e. you'd be tough challenged to find a team where he wouldn't be at least the #4D) playing on a bad hockey team. That context right there says everything one needs to know.

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  36. DSF, surely you realize the difference between playing for Columbus and Edmonton right?

    For instance, we'd agree that Pitkannen is a pretty good defenceman, yet when he played for a terrible Flyers team in 06-07 he got absolutely pasted in terms of GA/60.

    Or how about Dan Boyle in 07-08 when he was getting torched for 3.83 GA/60 while playing for Tampa Bay?

    Good players can get bad results on bad teams.

    And yes, part of the reason the Oilers were a bad team was because Tom Gilbert was the #1 defenceman with very little support.

    But that doesn't make him a bad player.

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  37. Regwald - He does lose some toughness with those things, but man, can he fly!

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  38. @Dawgbone

    I and intensely curious bout the difference playing for Columbus and the Oilers.

    Columbus was one of the lowest scoring teams in the league, gave up a mere 11 goals fewer than the Oilers, suffered from spotty goaltending and missed the playoffs by a wide margin.

    While I agree good players can get bad results on bad teams, it is also true that bad teams are bad because they have bad players.

    The issue with the Oilers, as you have alluded to is that players like Gilbert (and a long list of others) is they are constantly playing over their heads and getting torched.

    My reference to Kris Russell was designed to indicate that.

    Tom Gilbert would be fine as a #4 defenseman if paired with a rock solid #3 stay at home type.

    But then, how many teams will pay their #4 defenseman $4 Million a year?

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  39. @DSF

    But then, how many teams will pay their #4 defenseman $4 Million a year?

    Detroit payed Brad Stuart a discounted, 3.75 million to be their #4 d-man, and they did alright. I'd even argue from what i've seen, that they are fairly comparable in terms of style and ability. I'd say Gilbert gets what he deserves, top 4 d-man who can move the puck always get paid.

    Consider Gilbert also had a 5 game stretch where in the 4 games Khabibulin started he had a -11, and they had him paired him with Strudwick to boot. Considering Khabibulin let in 26 goals in those 4 games, and was then promptly placed on the IR, i think we may need to excuse him a bit for those games. When you get that kind of goaltending the guys most likley to take advantage are the snipers of the league(i.e. Gilbert's comp.). So if we omit those four games, he was -4 for the year. That's not too shabby considering his role, the help, and the oilers goal differential of -76. I'd argue plus/minus isn't everything but considering your argument, i'd say it's certainly relevant.

    And did Kris Russel play 25 min. a night against top opposition? If not then i don't think it's a very fair comparable.

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