Monday, August 8, 2011

RE 11-12: Sam Gagner


















Sam Gagner has checked a few items off his 'to do' list on the way to being a productive and effective C for the Edmonton Oilers. He is the most effective offensive option now, his CorsiRel has been heading in a very good direction for years and his zone start/finish is a very nice number.

If he could deliver those kinds of results against the tough competition? The Oilers would have a young center who could do the things required to help his team win. That is a very valuable item.

It's also a dangerous time for the organization. Starting now, Gagner should start covering the draft bet, has enough value to outperform this contract and be worth his next one. That means he will be a candidate for other teams to acquire. Buy low, sell high--that's the point he's at now. It's up to the Oilers to stay the course and reap the benefits from all those struggles.



NHL prediction for 11-12:  70, 15-35-50 (.714)
  1. Great. He finally hits 50 points. I don't think it's a huge deal, he was on track for a 50-point season last year before the injury.
  2. Speaking of the injury, how is it going? Gagner has been interviewed a few times over the last couple of months and he says it is coming along fine. Gagner: "It's good, I have been able to shoot pucks and do a lot of stickhandling without any pain."
  3. So he's healthy? I assume so, it'll be something to keep track of and then confirm when he comes to training camp in the fall. I haven't seen any warning signs and Gagner himself doesn't seem concerned, so it appears at this time to be a non-issue.
  4. The Oilers will have to trade him eventually. Why?
  5. He and RNH are both playmaking centers. Why can't an NHL team have two playmaking centers? Hemsky and Gagner played on the same line last season and the Oilers still had too many good wingers without solid center help. Also, both have a nice range of skills, and we really have no idea about RNH and his immediate future.
  6. Nope. Can't work. Never has. The 2005-06 Oilers boasted two centermen with 51 (Horcoff) and 46 (Stoll) assists. It can be done, although I do agree that you'd want them to have a nice range of skills. Thankfully, both Gagner and RNH have some nice things.
  7. Gagner doesn't have a wide range of skills. I'd argue that, there's a good chance he'll be a solid 2-way center at the peak of his career. Gagner has shown the ability to play well without the puck.
  8. You should be forced to pack a shovel everywhere you go. Until I hear Tom Renney say he's making progress and can play that 2-way role, I'll assume you're doing your usual "make crap up to frame the issue" routine.. This is courtesy Louise (who is an exceptional contributor to this blog and others) via a conversation Renney had with Bob Stauffer. Renney: "Well hey, what's been lost in the equation with Sam, and the expectations that he certainly has for himself, but also everyone else does too; he's really worked on his defensive game. He's worked on his two-way game. I can't suggest for a second, Bob, the number of clips that we showed last year of Sam being sorta that third guy high in the offensive zone... reloading hard and getting back above the puck as the first forechecker... taking his responsibility right back deep into our own end. Those are huge commitments from players and certainly a player like Sam, where instinctively at least, the offense comes real easy to him. The defense is something he has continued to have to work on, and he should continue to. I think he's becoming a more complete player. I think given the nature of our line-up now, and the depth and the competence of people... to do things on both sides of the puck. I think it'll actually allow Sam to really sort of spread his wings, reach a little further offensively and be that type of guy that we hoped he would be, certainly contributing to our offense."
  9. Fine. He's making progress. REAL progress. And it isn't just "saw him good" verbal from the coach; Gagner's CorsiRel has been solid or better for three years now, his zone start/end is improving and his 5x5/60 minutes offense was the best by an Oiler last season. He's showing signs of being a guy who is close to being help to help win hockey games.
  10. What's left to do ? Playing the tough opposition and posting good CorsiRel and scoring numbers. After that, maybe they can load on a tough zone start just to make things fun.
  11. He'll never make it. Go back and read the Renney quote and then look at his age. I'm not saying he's going to make the HHOF but I am saying he's on track and has shown some growth. We might be looking at a fine NHL player for years to come.
  12. Who should he play with? I'd try to find a marriage that worked with Gagner-Hemsky. I'd try Smyth but think it might be too soon to force Gagner into the tough minutes role. So, Horcoff-Smyth might have to do the heavy lifting (that's what I'm projecting) and Gagner spends time playing with Hall/Hemsky or Hall/Eberle. I'd like to see Hall/Eberle to start.
  13. Cogliano could have done better. Gagner has passed a lot of competition since he came to camp fall 2007 and I think he passed Horcoff offensively awhile ago. Now, he has a chance to pass Horcoff (and Belanger) as an overall player. Andrew Cogliano was never the hurdle for Gagner. Not ever.
  14. Pat Quinn started Cogliano ahead of Gagner on his first night as Oiler coach in the NHL. You know, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Pat Quinn and no one can say he didn't have a fine coaching career. Hell, that Flyer run was amazing and he had some horses in Toronto, too. I wish he'd won his Stanley, I really do. But the Oilers had to get rid of him for decisions just like that one (putting Gagner on the 4line).
  15. Why only 70 games? Gagner has had some injuries over the last couple of seasons, his three year average is close to 70.
  16. What is his strongest asset? Big brain. He's a really smart hockey player. You know, the first TC I wasn't convinced but Louise kept saying he was a smart cookie and he'd learn. I felt he had skill but would get run over (pretty much like most feel about RNH right now) nightly. Anyway, he's adjusted and struggled and adjusted some more, all the while taking stock and figuring things out. He's a sublime talent.
  17. Example? Last year, maybe early December the Oilers are on the road in Montreal. Down 3-2, Oilers are on the PK. Subban tries to do too much (and a teammate gets tripped--no call) and it is jailbreak the other way. Hemsky and Gagner are on a two-on-one with Spacek the only man back. As the play develops, Spacek flops on his stomach so that the pass is no longer available. Gagner waits, changes the angle to get a better look at the right side shelf, waits, waits, and then drills it right where it needed to go. He was probably going about 1 mile an hour after Spacek dropped, but he knew he had all day, changed angles (and Price remained stationary) and made the shot. Beauty.

69 comments:

  1. Hey LT, great read. Love the reasonable expectations series and I've got to admit, I'm a Gagner fanboy, too. Here's hoping the org doesn't ship him out unless it's for something great (the Treenasoil Suter rumor would qualify).

    Just wondering if you would be so kind as to help me out with something. I recently just started up my own Oilers blog and was hoping you might give me a couple tips on how to get the word out and find a readership. Anything you can offer me would be much appreciated.

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  2. As for the trade comments, even if he's not a successful playmaking center, there's no reason Gagner can't be a successful playmaking right-winger.

    We should have patience with Sam, he has two thing going for him. His age relative to other players with his amount of NHL experience, and that his salary should continue to be lower than players with similar experience due to the longer development time needed.

    I'd love to see Sam have a breakout year, but I'm worried that would price him off the Oilers.

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  3. The other play that reminds me of Gagner's smarts is when the Oil played Vancouver and gagner was coming down the boards and noticed willie mitchell cheating to outside. Sam faked the dump in, mitchell went for it and gagner walked in all alone and scored.

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  4. I think the jury is still out on Hemmer and Gagner playing well together. Especially on the same PP unit.

    With his skating he's always going to have to cheat for D against the toughs. Tools wise the lack of size and speed are always going to be hills to climb.

    We haven't even come close to the end of his developmental years. I have no problem with waiting for him to fully arrive, but if the Oil can find a Dman of similar quality and development, I can't see any good reason why we wouldn't make the trade either.

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  5. LT, you used to make Ganger to Gilmore or Damphose comparisons all the time. I haven't seen you do that in a while. Why not?

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  6. LT,

    I have my doubts that the Oil could ever win the Stanley Cup with Gagner as the #1 or #2 center. Hope it turns out differently however.

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  7. Great Job LT..

    This is my first time commenting on your site but I've been reading here a long time and you really do a great job.

    I think Sam has been around so long that fans seem to forget how old he is. He's only 9 months older than Ebs and he's already the best offensive C on the team with lots of room to improve.

    There are def lots of options for wingers this season but I really would like to see Sam play with Smyth and Hemmer against the toughs... if it works I think we've got a playoff team.

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  8. major: From the spring RE:

    How are the comps coming? At 21 years old, Vincent Damphousse was 80gp, 26-42-66 (.825) -8 on a team that was -37; Doug Gilmour was 78gp, 21-36-57 (.731) +3 on a team that was +20; Sam Gagner was 68gp, 15-27-42 (.618) -17 on a team that was -52. Damphousse was in on 25% of his team's offense; Gilmour was in on 19% of his team's offense and Gagner was in on 22% of his team's offense.

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  9. @ "Steve Smith"

    Fell out of my chair laughing...thank you!

    I remember watching Vinny Damphose rip it up for the Leafs back in the day.

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  10. I remember watching Vinny Damphose rip it up for the Leafs back in the day.

    Dog Gilmore was no slough either.

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  11. (If you don't properly dry it after watering the lawn, you'll get a damphose.)

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  12. Bobby Orr at 22: 37-102-139

    Seems like a lot of people scored goals and posted points at 22.

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  13. I am torn on Gagner. Hoping like hell he can produce going forward. Watching the playoffs this year I just have to think he would get chewed up or at least easily neutralized by big smart defense. He is on his butt quite often as it is during the regular season.

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  14. Telling year for Sam coming up. He's getting to that point where he can be expensive. He might even command more then he's actually worth which might be one of the reasons the Oilers might want to shed him.

    This year the Oilers look like they want to take hockey serious again. Not sure of the outcome but I think how successful depends on players like Gagner.

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  15. Keep gagner, hemsky ...hell everyone until they simply are redundant.

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  16. It's crunchtime for a lot of players on the Oil this year.

    Gagner, Hemsky, Omark, Smid.

    Hope they all go trough. Probably wont.

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  17. I hate to be "that guy" trying to drum up readers for his blog in the comments section of someone else's...but that's exactly what I'm going to do:

    http://lavishmactavish.blogspot.com/

    Give it a read, see what you think.

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  18. Hemsky, Gagner, Omark and Smid are all becoming politicians? It's a bit early for the trough I think. ;-) (I kid fpv, your english is better than mine most days)

    hunter, you know that's ridiculous. Hemsky is all-world for what he does, and Gagner is simply too young to give up on him. There are players the Oil can afford to lose, but these two aren't them, at least not yet (and by that, I mean a year or two at least).

    BTW, took the family to the Royal Tyrell Museum in Drumheller today, and it is a fantastic place for little money ($28 for the five of us). Kids under 7 get in free, the exhibits are interesting/informative, and the town itself is a slice of enjoyable during the summer too. Well worth a two-day visit. (so ends my shameless plug)

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  19. Sing it, LT. Kid is a helluva player.

    I don't understand Oilers' fans sometimes. Run the actual hockey players out of town, fall in love with the Morlocks, and lust for the future.

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  21. Kyle Wellwood at 22:

    81 11 34 45


    His (Wellwood's) career high. Which Gagner bested in his rookie year...at age 18.

    In other words: apples to oranges. The better comparable to Wellwood would be Andrew Cogliano, who similarly posted his best numbers in his rookie season, then went backwards for the next three seasons, landing himself on the fourth line.

    Meanwhile, Gagner's numbers have remained relatively constant while taking on gradually tougher assignments. In other words, progression instead of regression.

    Gagner's in a different class of player than guys like Wellwood and Cogliano. He's a developing top-six forward, not a fourth liner.t

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  22. Always a big supporter of Sam Gagner, myself. I personally would prefer to see him with Smyth and Hemsky this year. I don't think that this line is really our heavy minutes line so much as it is going to be a split with the Hall/Eberle combo. I actually see Horcoff centering Hall and Eberle again just because he was such a good fit with them last year.

    However, at the same time, you have to wonder how Belanger will play in all of this. Maybe he ends up being a much better center for those two. If that's the case, I wonder where Horcoff and Gagner will end up in the mix.

    I can see Gagner having great chemistry with Hemsky and Smyth though (up until Hemsky's inevitable injury). And I know Horcoff has chemistry with Hall and Eberle already. I wonder if Belanger will be able to get the most out of Paajarvi and Omark...

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  23. BTW, LT, I think you're implying that Gsgner's a slight bit injury prone. I'd say that last year's injury (his longest) was a fluke... and it shouldn't hurt him long term at all.

    As far as the other injuries, I'd say really he had a tougher season in 09/10, but he's been relatively healthy the rest of the time.

    That said.. 70 games isn't a bad estimate anyways. I just don't want it to sound like he's injury prone, because he may have been healthy all year last year if his wrist wasn't stepped on accidentally by Ryan Jones.

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  24. "accidentally stepped on by Ryan Jones"? I've got a bridge to sell you.

    Man I hate that signing.

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  25. @ Hbomb.

    Worth noting that in his 22 year old season, when he scored 45 points, Wellwood was 9th among Leafs' forwards for TOI/G at 12:46.

    That would rank him 5 mins/G behind Gagner and lower than Jones, Paajarvi and Cogliano on last season's Oilers squad.


    He was injured the following season but managed to put up 42P in 48GP or .875PPG....a scoring rate that is far ahead of Gagner's best.

    I expect Traktor's comparison is much closer than you might think although the end of the story remains to be seen.

    With RNH taking his PP time (second among forwards) soon, I would expect Gagner's output to drop.

    BTW, the meme that he is gradually facing tough competition doesn't hold much water.

    Last season his Qual Comp was 7th among regular forwards, it was 11th the year before, 7th the year before that and 7th in his rookie season.

    If there is a picture of someone running in place, Sam Gagner is the poster boy.

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  26. Oh good. We get to hear about why Gagner is not a good player now. Sort of like how the NHL jobbed the Canucks of the Cup (and they didn't actually screw themselves).

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  27. I don't mind Gagner. He's got some try and he'll put up some points. I'm a little doubtful he ever reaches the point where he can contribute in a strong two way role while playing on both special teams however.

    I also am thinking he doesn't look like a guy that is going to be the catalyst for a scoring line on this team. If the Oilers keep Hemsky, then he along with Hall, and Hopkins will be making big cash. Guys like Paajarvi, Eberle, and Gagner are going to put up points playing with these guys and you can't pay them all if you want something decent besides forwards on your team.

    The Oilers can't afford to run into a situation like the one they had with Smyth/Horcoff where they sent away the guy that can produce with anyone and kept the player that needs to be with better offensive players to do well.

    If the Oilers are hung up on Gagner's potential and not offering him in deals like the Burns and Carter trades that just went down, then I feel they aren't doing their jobs very well.

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  28. "Oh good. We get to hear about why Gagner is not a good player now. Sort of like how the NHL jobbed the Canucks of the Cup (and they didn't actually screw themselves)."

    Or maybe how if your best centre is slow, weak and light, a complimentary scorer, has a weak shot, and the lanes get closed in the playoffs you lose when it counts.

    If RNH becomes #1, that's who has his back.

    A winning team is all about balance, the right players in the right places that compliment each other.

    This has been the post 06 Run Oiler's problem. IF RNH is #1, #2 has to be Messier-ish, to take some heat and create a different attack that imbalances the defence and opponent's coverage options.

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  29. I've always loved the Wellwood crowd.

    Kyle Wellwood at 22:

    1.8 EVPTS/60

    Sam Gagner at 21:

    2.0 EVPTS/60

    But gosh, Kyle Wellwood was the sixth-best scorer on Toronto's second ranked in the league power play that year, and the team's seventh-best scorer at evens, while Gagner was just his club's leading even-strength scorer and fourth-best power play point producer.

    Totally the same thing. Book it.

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  30. Jonathan Willis said...

    I've always loved the Wellwood crowd.

    Kyle Wellwood at 22:

    1.8 EVPTS/60

    Sam Gagner at 21:

    2.0 EVPTS/60

    But gosh, Kyle Wellwood was the sixth-best scorer on Toronto's second ranked in the league power play that year, and the team's seventh-best scorer at evens, while Gagner was just his club's leading even-strength scorer and fourth-best power play point producer.

    So, what you're saying is Wellwood, while being ranked ninth in TOI/G on the Leafs, was just slightly behind Gagner in ES production?

    Got it.

    BTW, Hemsky, was the Oilers leading ES scorer, not Gagner.

    It wasn't even close unless you feel a need to give Gagner credit for scoring 1 more point in an extra 21 games played.

    Lies and damned lies.

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  31. So, what you're saying is Wellwood, while being ranked ninth in TOI/G on the Leafs, was just slightly behind Gagner in ES production?

    Is your use of "while being ranked ninth in TOI/G on the Leafs" the result of ignorance or disingenuousness?

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  32. I don't understand the hate for Ryan Jones. His numbers will probably drop but long term injuries are unavoidable - almost expected, on this team. If he really falls down the depth chart far enough to be below some of the kids, then that's a win-win situation for the team since Ryan Jones is a proven NHLer despite his "offensive void" and that also means the kids have learned to earn their jobs through competition. Push comes to shove, we send him down or he gets picked up on waivers by Nashville. Even more likely - there's always a trade market for the Jones of the world.

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  33. I accidentally deleted a whole sentence in that last post. I meant to say that injuries are unavoidable and if he needs to fill in different roles he can do that.

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  34. Ryan Jones is a proven NHLer...

    By this do you mean that you can prove that he's played NHL games?

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  35. SS: I think you've got too much expectations for a 4th liner.

    Watch videos of Tom Pyatt. It'l make you enjoy Strudwick.

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  36. I have my doubts that the Oil could ever win the Stanley Cup with Gagner as the #1 or #2 center. Hope it turns out differently however.

    You owe me a coffee. Mine spewed all over the keyboard.

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  37. By virtually every measure other than boxcars, Colin Fraser and J-F Jacques were better fourth liners than Ryan Jones, and they weren't even good enough to play on the Oilers.

    (One of the few measures that Fraser wasn't better was +-/60. In that they were tied, but Fraser did it with a far lower PDO.)

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  38. SS: Gotta account that JFJ rarely hits the net (28 times) and that Fraser has the shot of a gardening tool (5,3%).

    For Fraser to score he had to shot 3X the ammount of Jones.

    There's some terrible, terrible players out there on good teams.

    And he's funny.

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  39. Well, Fraser's shooting percentage last year was a career low. The evidence is certainly that he's a worse sniper than Jones, but the gulf isn't as large as last season would suggest.

    Jacques' pretty useless overall, and I'd probably take Jones over him. But that's not high praise.

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  40. SS: Well. Jones' an adequate PK'er. A willing man to scrap, and he can pop some goals.

    To what extent can your 4th liners hurt you?

    If he's willing to reduce his icetime to 4 mins a night + PK I don't see the problem.

    4th Liners aren't really supposed to matter all that much.

    At the same it is a bad contract.

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  41. Ryan Jones career stats:

    NSH 87 GP, 14-14-28, +4
    EDM 89 GP, 19- 7-26, -8

    For all the talk about his offence being unsustainable, from a P/G perspective he's actually dropped a tiny bit since the trade to Edmonton. His goal totals jumped a little bit, his assists total dropped a little bit, and overall he pretty much sustained his established rate. In 2.15 NHL seasons, he has averaged 15-10-25 per 82 GP. That's nice production from a lower-tier player.

    I know his underlying stats don't look great, but some of the OVERlying ones look alright, and it seems that some folks are willing to toss those aside entirely. Liam Reddox is better! I mean, sure he got outscored 18-1, but besides that! Just wait 'til those mean ol' percentages start evening out!

    I jest, but grimly.

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  42. I think that sometimes we confuse what we are hoping to see Gagner develop into as a player with reality.

    The 2007 draft class wasn't a real strong group in my view. I saw maybe 8-10 recognizable names and the rest seem to have faded into the hockey ether.

    The 2nd and 3rd rounds are also rather thin. P.K.Subban and 3 or 4 other 2nd rounders show up but there is little else there to impress.

    For me Gagner's weaknesses are rather glaring. His lack of size and speed would be two of them and his lack of strength on the face-off dot would be the third.

    My hope is he improves with this new fresh crop of talent and elevates to a higher level. The Oil are going to have a tough decision if he doesn't up the ante.

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  43. It is as if many feel a guy who will play well as a centre, put up 50 points and has his coach's confidence in 2-way play is not worth keeping around. I don't get that? Are the Oilers so good they can give these guys away? And who would they get to replace him? No one that I can see around the league.

    This is just being unhappy with what is there, for the sake of being unhappy.

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  44. JW: Damn you for bringing logic and reality into this discussion. Now DSF and Traktor are going to have to scramble to change the direction of the discussion.

    (Translation: thank you for putting the numbers out there to back up what my base argument is, at best, a wild stab in the dark and an example of that whole biased selection of comparable players that was raised on C&B recently).

    The whole "can't win with Gagner as your 2C if RNH is your 1C" thing doesn't strike me as smart either. If both guys develop into players who can hold their own at either end of the rink and are able to post offense to complement it, isn't that a 1/2 punch that a team could win with? Yeah, as FastOil says, it would be nice to have a Messier-type to play as a 2C behind "The Nuge", but last time I checked, those guys don't grow on trees...

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  45. I have a school of thought (not a very original or profound one though!) here on evaluating players:

    Two broad ways to do it:

    1) You look at each player's individual stats and metrics, all the new fangled Rel Corsi yaddah yaddah. You keep the guys with good numbers, regardless of their role on the team, previous linemates, etc. The idea here is that good numbers = good players and good players are just good for the team period. You give them every opportunity to develop and contribute because the numbers say they will reward you.

    2) You bracket off the numbers somewhat, and you look at the texture of the team. Chemistry of linemates, players' 'intangibles', approaches to team offence and defence, the complimentarity of players, roster age and cap situations, depth chart strengths and weaknesses.

    With School 1, you may end up making good personnel decisions because you can recover value from players that maybe have a not "looked good" season or two. The stats can help you make the right decision on a bubble player.

    But it can't be all School 1. At some point you need to sacrifice a statistically 'good' player or two in order to improve the organism that is the whole team. This is where crafty and bold GMing comes in, helped by great pro scouting- the latter of which on the surface at least we may not have an abundance of...

    Sam looks good by School 1 metrics, but less so by School 2. As others have pointed out, at some point we're going to have to address the imbalance on this team between good players who need strong linemates for success, and good players who can get it done in less optimum conditions- who raise rhe game of those around them. Sam right now is in the first group. We either commit to that and get him Jere Lehtinen and Bill Guerin v2.0 on his wings, or we have faith that he moves into group two, or we deal him in the next 20 months.

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  46. This is just being unhappy with what is there, for the sake of being unhappy.

    But these stats based on 3000% inacturate data says he is bad.

    Bruce: Thanks for posting what I thought would be obvious to everyone.

    A 60% goal player who plays 4th and 3rd line minutes. who has a consistent production rate.

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  47. I hope Gagner breaks out and Tambellini evaluates him until he does, this coming season or next.

    If he doesn't improve in 2 more years, trade him.

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  48. @Bar Qu:

    I mean exactly what I wrote. Keep Hemsky, Gagner, and basically the entire good young roster until next season at least.

    Gagner could still amaze everyone, unless he's simply too small to win at SC Finals level. It's still possible Gagner's a star NHLer.

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  49. @ Bar Qu
    Are the Oilers so good they can give these guys away? And who would they get to replace him? No one that I can see around the league.

    I have my doubts sbout Gagner in latter round post season, I feel he is a good player, but a complimentary player in a key position that better teams seem to have more dominant players in.

    Wingers make better one or two dimensional players than centres.

    That being said,

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  50. D said I have my doubts that the Oil could ever win the Stanley Cup with Gagner as the #1 or #2 center.

    I have seen this meme trotted out before, that Gagner doesn't have what it takes to contribute as a 2C on a winning team. I think a very interesting comparable for Gagner in that respect is David Krejci. The Bruins showed this year that a smallish pass-first C can be a real difference maker in the regular season and playoffs.

    As prospects, Gagner and Krejci were managed like polar opposites. Krejci was handled with kid-gloves, given two full seasons post-draft in the QMJHL, a full season in the AHL, and a season split between the AHL and NHL. In his first four seasons post-draft, Krejci had amassed 62gp, 7-21-28 in the NHL.

    By comparison, at the same age (four months younger, actually) Sam Gagner has played 291 NHL games and posted 59-114-173.

    This past season, Krecji played exactly the role I would envision for Gagner moving forward. 2nd tier QoC, top tier QoT, 50%+ Ozone Starts. Within those parameters, Krecji generated positive possession numbers and put up a massive 2.76 p/60 at 5v5.

    If RNH turns out to be a tough-minutes out-scorer (that's a HUGE 'if'), perhaps Gagner can serve as an effective 2C in the mold of Krejci, dominating 2nd tier opposition. By age 22, he's definitely proven far more at the NHL level than Krejci had at the same age.

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  51. Ah Datsyuk and Zetterberg? NAh they too small!

    I highly doubt RNH will be worth a 1st overall pick.

    Altough the Andy Mcdonald realm is not impossible, and think this type of elite pass 1st players is his ceiling (Along with guys like Savard etc).

    And I don't think it's impossible for a full blown Gagner and a Savard type to win.

    It's funny when some guys blame Gagner for being ''Pass first''.
    He's a fucking center.

    That's like bitching over a PG with a lot of assists but few points.

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  52. I think Bar Qu is basically right -- a lot of the complaining has to do with unreasonable expectations, perhaps because of how high Gagner was picked, and perhaps because of the apparent promise of his rookie season. And I think there is a lot of complaining by those who want their #2 centers to look slicker or faster or bigger or whatever. There is also a little DSFing, i.e., trolling.

    Gagner has put up decent numbers for a developing #2 and is only months older than Eberle. Gagner is not the problem on this team, though one might have hoped that his draft class was stronger.

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  53. I've seen more than a few posts here the last 2 days expressing support for some kind of a Gagner + for Suter swap along the lines of what Bra and Panties has been tweeting (and continues to tweet) about.

    Leaving aside the very interesting argument to be had from a hockey trade standpoint, I don't see anyone addressing the fact that Suter is UFA after this year. So either we extend him for big money right after the trade and without seeing him play a minute for a team that doesn't include Shea Weber, or he doesn't get extended right away and negotiations get dragged into the season.

    So to those expressing interest in that deal, I ask what they think it would cost to extend Suter, and what we could expect to get for him at the deadline if he can't be extended.

    To me, it's a pretty dangerous proposition either way.

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  54. So either we extend him for big money right after the trade and without seeing him play a minute for a team that doesn't include Shea Weber,

    Of coarse predicated on extension.

    But weber come on.
    Suter was the best tough comp dman in the league last year.

    Weber was a negative player when suter went down and had to be moved to second pair comp minutes.

    IE. he needed to be protected without Suter.

    toronto got the other tough comp guy.

    A little less Mcguire brain and a little more fact please.

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  55. Weber will end up like J-Bow.

    Very good, albeit overrated and overpaid defender.

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  56. The question, ricki, was what do you think that extension would cost for apparently the best D-man in the NHL?

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  57. Gagner probably reads this blog, and will take heart in the fanbase's support.

    LOL

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  58. The question, ricki, was what do you think that extension would cost for apparently the best D-man in the NHL?

    Toug Comp Dman At even:

    Most top dmen are 15 to 19 min a night.

    Think of 3 min of PP and PK that affect value could be 40% of scoring.

    Suter and weber are a wash on the PK but both are elite top 40 PK.

    Suter top 30 PP
    Weber not.

    yeah ok he probably is the most complete dman in the game. Clearly he had a Norris year.

    So what do we pay? i know we need to extend Whitney and send Gilbert off if that happens.

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  59. So what do we pay? i know we need to extend Whitney and send Gilbert off if that happens.

    Rickibear, I have REALLY enjoyed your posts over the last couple of days. Positively overflowing with logic.

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  60. Maybe 5.5 mil does the trick for Suter.

    Regardless, the return on Suter at the deadline, if he couldn't be resigned, wouldn't be near the value of Gags. Not worth the risk, imo.

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  61. //Maybe 5.5 mil does the trick for Suter. //

    Escrow is over 10% and I don't think it is being refunded.

    Real money is 10% less than what everybody is signing.

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  62. Rickibear is killing it of late. Good stuff. Go Lions!

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  63. Yet another thread ruined by DSF.

    DSF is illustrative of everything wrong with society.

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  64. Lee: what's so logical about trading Gilbert if we acquire Suter? We'd be in the same spot we are now, short two top-four defensemen.

    Get more good players. Keep current good players. I don't think this drum can be beat hard enough.

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  65. PunjabiOil said...

    Yet another thread ruined by DSF.

    DSF is illustrative of everything wrong with society.



    Just back from setting fires and looting in Croyden...did I miss anything?

    Please let me know soonest...I have to help put down an uprising in Syria before jetting off to India to combat Sikh terrorists.

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  66. HBomb: Agreed. Another top 4 defender at ADD to Whitney and Gilbert means they need only one of Smid, Petry, Peckham, etc to emerge/play above their current level of ability.

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  67. @Steve Smith:

    Wish I saw your comment earlier.. but how stupid do you have to be to actually believe that Jones purposely stepped on Gagner's wrist? Yes... "accidentally stepped on by Ryan Jones".

    When you come sell me the bridge, don't forget to wear your tin foil hat... hate for you to leave home without it.

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