Monday, June 13, 2011

SpOILer's 30

In honour of LT's Top 30 and the two week countdown to the draft, I've decided to try my hand at my own list. I've seen most of these guys on TV and video and have read a ton about each. That said, I'm no scout, but what the hell...


My Top 30:

This ranking is based on a few principles. First, that elite ability in any given tool is given the a lot of weight. Hockey history is a story written by players who are elite in one area. If they can skate, most of the other tools can be brought to at least Good level. Skill and upside rule. As LT is fond of saying, scoring is the toughest thing to do in the NHL.

Second, I evaluate skill with the belief that numbers don't necessarily translate well (up or down) and that equivalencies, NHLE, give us a bell curve of probabilities, not a precise translation. Context is important and is largely either anecdotal or missing completely.

Third, given equal levels of ability the advantage is given to size. And finally, I don't nick as hard as some for injuries, if there is a good picture of the player hiding behind the hurt.

(Joint size, why don’t we know more about this? Is it another state secret like TOI? I’d like to know if a player’s wrists, ankles and knees are prodigiously Rastafarian, or skinny all-paper spliff.)

I also like to tier. The first six players on my list all have elite tools. They have the potential for first line or first pairing and my attempt is to order all these players on that basis (where they”ll fit in the line-up) with a risk-reward filter.

The comps for the first tiers are based mostly on expected level of offense and defense the player will deliver. Style is secondary. My understanding is that comps are supposed to be given in pairs, reflecting a player's low end and top end.

This is not a mock draft.

1. Larsson: Has elite vision, sense and pass. Is a plus skater, has a hard low slapper, a wrister with juice, good size and very good strength. Has a little more steel to his play than most Swede blue-liners and hits well but relies on smart angles more than the big hits. Offense shouldn’t be a question. Since his boxcars represent EV numbers, and the tools are there, well-shown at a tournament 2 years older in age while he was hurt. Playing through the injury while taking top minutes against likely the best comp at his age against men is heady stuff. Because he's proven himself against men already, I have him ahead of RNH -- there's about the same upside with less risk. At the very least he's Adam Foote, and at the best Lidstrom.

2. Hopkins: Also has elite vision, sense, pass, and add very good puck skills. Quick release wrister with accuracy. Doesn't use the slapper much. Excellent skater. Poor size and strength. That's the other main reason why I have him behind Larsson. Larsson has more tools (has size and strength) with the same elite upside and thus far less downside. Durability might be an issue, playing bigger centres with a slighter build. Tim Connolly to Adam Oates, maybe Forsberg if he gains size and strength and uses his shot.

3. Ryan Murphy: Much the same as RNH, Murphy has all the elite offensive skills, along with double plus skating but lacks even good size and strength. Unfortunately his position relies far more on these abilities than 1C does. There's a ton of upside here, but an almost equal amount of risk. Still, like Ellis before him, he's gonna get his reps at the NHL level, even if it is just as a PP specialist. Hawgood-small PP specialist to Coffey. 3rd line or 1st. Either way he could end up scoring a lot of points.

4. Doug Hamilton: He is elite on the basis that few players his size can skate that well. We are not talking Hal Gill or Willie Mitchell, we are talking Bouwmeester, Jovanovski, Pronger level with respect to this combination. And like those three he can skate for an eternity. Might still be growing. Passes, moves the puck, well. Scholastic player of the year, he's a smart man. Work ethic is outstanding. His release can use some improvement, as he has a big wind up, but otherwise has a good shot. Puck skills, defensive reactions can still be a bit clumsy from time to time but he has grown a ton in the past year. Offense might be a bit slight, presenting some downside risk, but should be above the Gill level. I could easily have him switch spots with Murphy and would in a mock draft, but I’ve bent this ranking toward offensive skill. Brewer to Chara.

5. Brodin: Brings the most elite hockey sense out of any of the top 6. I think it is dangerous to under-rate this ability. Off-the-charts anticipation. Is a plus plus skater. Very good passer. Has only average size and strength. It's tough to tell how much offense he will generate, but he had 4 assists without much PP time and that's a good number for the SEL. With his brains and passing ability he should be at least a solid point producer. His sense and skating make him about as much a can't-miss pick outside of the top 3 as can be had. The ability to make high quality reads playing against men at his age sets him apart. Most defensemen take years to learn what he already sees instinctively. Offensive questions and size hold him back from top of the class. Hejda to Suter. Zubov, if his shot develops.

6. Landeskog: Elite grit, will, determination, if that can be said. Cut from the pisscutter mold by a rusty blade. Has the size and strength to back It up. Reigns in the dirty areas. Will score a lot of ugly goals. Goalies and Dmen alike will hate him on the PP. Should be worth his weight in gold during the playoffs. Is above average in most offensive skills but excellent in none and thus has the most risk to deliver the least offense out of the top tier. Moreau to Smyth/Doan.

The next tier represents very good players, mostly with second line potential, but with some material chance to be top line or pairing.

7. Couturier: The best of the rest. Excellent size and strength, above average puck skills, vision and sense (but not elite in these three areas), good speed, poor agility and starts. Already understands the defensive side of the game and is dominant on the dot. Great two way player. Little downside as evidenced by his WJC selection. Perfect second line guy like a Staal, Koivu, Arnott, but like these guys is not known for creativity or fast, dynamic play. Just doesn’t dance like that. Can maybe play first line minutes if his skating improves but will likely lose some offence in the bigger, faster league with second line playing time. Gratton to Arnott. Outside shot at Esposito with better skating, strength and compete level. I am and always have been a big fan of Arnott. Otto too.

8. Huberdeau: Gets the spot ahead of Strome on the basis of speed, goal scoring ability and big game poise. I rank the two about the same but give Huberdeau a slight nod in those areas. Has an unusual loping stride which comes from a speed-skating background as a teen. His versatility at wing and centre is useful, but he's more likely to be a winger in the Bigs. Creative and very opportunistic. Peverley to G. Anderson.

9. Strome: Came out of nowhere so might have a little more bust risk than the rest of this tier. He has good wheels but his top gear isn't quite as good as the good skaters above him. This could improve with some work. Excellent puck skills, handling. Has an accurate shot but it isn't a real ripper. There are some questions on whether his offence will translate despite his gaudy boxcars. Has leader qualities and drive so I would hate to bet against him. Marchant to Drury. He’ll be a leader no matter what line he’s on, fell off the Linden tree.

10. Zibanejad: His numbers are slightly poorer than MPS' and he doesn't have the same elite speed, but he plays a grittier, more physical game, he initiates contact far more and he has a little better natural finish. Has that centre/winger versatility. Good motor/work rate. Plays a solid, smart two-way game for his age. Morrow to Hossa.

11. Klefbom Skates like Doughty with a hammer of a slap shot. Has NHL size. Loves to hit. If he had the hockey sense and defensive abilities of his partner Brodin, he would be ranked with Larsson. (And when thinking about Larsson's alleged lack of offense, keep in mind he scored at about the same rate as this kid, who is touted as an offensive threat). Right now Klefbom is a little one dimensional, which with his decision-making issues makes it tough to guarantee top pairing. Bit of a boom-bust in that regard, but good defense can be learnt. MAB to Jovanovski.

After 11, things fall off a little again as the bust factor goes up. Since these prospects now start to have decent bust potential, I'll discontinue the bookend comps.

12. Bartschi: Lacks the high end skating to slot higher. Has excellent puck skills. Could be a little more physically engaged but smart enough to find time and space. Very average size. His shot is good enough that the other issues could be overlooked. Solid 2nd line winger upside but with his combo of size and skating could flame out.

13. Beaulieu: Has above average size, but lacks the offence to be a true top pairing option. Pretty well-rounded and ranks above average or average in most areas. Tends to over complicate things and sense is a concern. Graded ahead of Morrow as he plays a tougher game. Decent chance to be second pairing stalwart.

14. Morrow: Another well-rounded Dman who probably doesn't quite have the high end offence. A little small but makes up for it with good positioning. Bit of a long back swing on his shot. Better skater than Beaulieu, but strength and reach will be a concern till he proves otherwise.

15. McNeill: Had a weak U18s where a good showing might have vaulted him to the head of this group. Probably has the least downside risk out of this tier, but lacks some of the high end offensive potential. If he makes it he could be a useful Jarret Stoll type at the least and maybe as much as a Richards or Toews.

16. Siemens: Another guy who lacks offensive potential but because he can skate and bring size and strength and meanness has stuff teams will value. Has more polish to his game than Oleksiak right now so gets the nod in ranking. Not as mean or dependable defensively as a Teubert type but probably the best straight shutdown prospect available.

17. Oleksiak: Here sheerly on physical attributes, which are certainly elite. He's a project though and no one really knows what they're getting with this player. He looks like he will skate well enough to play a Hal Gill role at the least and those guys are always in demand due to their scarcity.

We're starting to get into guys who are either boom-bust or have shown limited upside. Toolsy guys who haven't put it together or offensive guys with serious drawbacks to their game, like commitment and size. Once you get to this point in the draft, it's pick your poison.

18. Jurco: A game breaker with great moves and creativity. Reminds of guys like Afinogenov who have all the skill but lack sense and defensive willingness. If he learns to play without the puck and to battle in his own end, could be a real steal.

19. Puempel: Elite shot and it's hard to push these guys down the list, but he is pretty average in every other area. If he had the compete level of a Skinner, he would surely rank higher. Injury didn't help him out much this year.

20. Scheifele: All round player who took a step forward at the U18s. Nothing exceptional but does everything well. Should have low bust potential but trades it off with limited upside. Might be one of those guys who's a 3rd liner with scoring ability who can play up and down the line up. Needs to add strength to play the kind of role his future holds.

21. Brett Ritchie: Prototypical power forward. Injury and playing on a mediocre team hurt his rankings on many lists. Excellent size and grit, he does well coming off the boards or sniffing out pucks in the dirty areas. Has a goal scorers hands. I have him ranked higher than most, but he’s the most likely Benn or Neal type in this draft.

22. Saad: A toolsy guy who has yet to make it add up. But with his size and speed, there are plenty of teams who will take a chance on him and see what comes of it. His numbers don’t show a lot of scoring, but what’s there should translate well. Might be a confidence issue here. Should be a lock to become a solid 3rd line guy with 2nd line power forward potential, and has a lesser chance of complete flameout than the more demonstrably better boxcar forwards around him.

23. Jensen: Has more talent than the guys ahead of him in this tier but is inconsistent and seems to lack battle and drive. Battle and drive are what keep you in the NHL, so while I don't doubt Jensen will get his shot, he will need to find something within himself to stick. Probably I should have nicked him more but he gets some leeway for adjusting to a new league.

24. Phillips: Huberdeau’s pivot. Great numbers, but maybe an issue with translation. I might be nicking this guy too much for benefitting from Huberdeau, but we all know the dangers of drafting a kid too high when someone else is driving the bus. Very smart player with excellent hands and puck distribution but his skating is a weakness. Has 2nd liner C top end if he can skate, but could completely flame out as he might not work on the 3rd line.

25. Rattie: Talented but small, he's a perimeter player who again might have difficulty tallying points at the NHL level with the lack of space and time nearly everywhere. He'll get a shot at it but the feeling is his skating needs to improve to be a top 6 guy at the Bigs. Screams tweener.

26. Grimaldi: Similar to Rattie, almost as skilled but even smaller. Doesn't have the perimeter knock and is a better skater than Rattie and has phenomenal drive, but whether it is enough to overcome the physical deficiencies remains to be seen. He probably should have had more points at the level he was playing where size is a much smaller issue. He might end up as a Marchant with hands.

27. Connor Murphy: Had injury troubles all year but when he did play he was outstanding. Strength and grit are the other concerns but the kid is an excellent passer, skater, shooter, defender. If he hadn't been so hurt there's a good chance he would've ended up Top 20. Durability is going to be a serious question, but there’s a nice risk-reward play here.

28. Noesen Player who's motor never stops. Fore-checks like a demon and plays a smart two way game. Played without much team help and racked up great numbers considering. Some questions about his first couple of steps. Some questions about whether his offense comes more from work than skill. Should be a lock for a 3rd line role with 2nd line potential if he maintains the development curve.

29. Miller: Another toolsy guy who has struggled to put it all together. Had a great U18s which should get him into the first round. Interesting combination of skill, speed, and size, with consistency and sense questions. Could be Kesler, could be Fraser.

30. Rask: I considered putting Armia here, but in the few games that I’ve seen him, I’ve seen very uninspired play. He could be Rick Nash-lite, but doesn’t seem bothered. Rask was inspired, on the other hand, at the U18s with Zib lined up on his wing. There’s still some questions about his regression, but there’s skill there and the kid has a shot if he has enough try.

BONUS:

31. Armia: The Dustin Penner of Scandinavia. Should have dominated at the U18s and instead just gave glimpses. Tools are there, but much like Jensen ahead of him there are serious questions about his commitment level and drive. These are real alarm bells to me, because they seem key to having an NHL career. Jensen at least gets credit for trying the OHL. Armia no such luck.

Catenacci, Mayfield, Biggs, Jenner... guys like that fall into the 2nd because they look more like project types or have more risk with less reward. Now please keep in mind any prospect out of the last tier could probably be swapped for a player in the next tier; Khokhlachev for Grimaldi, for example, but as I said, it’s pick your poison by this point.

51 comments:

  1. An even better read second time round. Good job Spoiler!

    Especially interesting to see the order vary significantly from the other top 30s I have seen to date.

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  2. I can only imagine the amount of work that had to go into a list like this - well done Spoiler!

    I do have one question though: other rankings such as the Hockey Prospectus have bumped Larsson down and RNH up on the logic that RNH has some truly elite skills whereas Larsson is just "good" at everything. Do you think they're missing something when they look at Larsson's game?

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  3. Good read. There's been some really great stuff lately from the usual suspects (FPB included).

    I think there is a contest for Oilers season ticket holders this year. Something like, if you can guess the top 20 players in the draft, in correct order, you win $100,000. You guys should get in on that, or try to get in with others who can enter.

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  4. Jon K: Haha. I put RNH 5th so I don't think i'l touch that.

    Even then, I'd just be an empty seat for 40 games on 41.

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  5. I love reading all the opinions on prospects, everyone has their own unique viewpoints and values different skills in different ways. At the end of the day however, we put our trust in the hands of the professionals. Across the board RNH is the guy all the pros are picking as the top guy, I'm hoping he's an oiler next friday and plan to celebrate the occasion.

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  6. Cactus,

    I think Larsson is being unfairly nicked for his drop in offense this year. I think there was some hope he might grow a little more too, like Hedman and D. Hamilton. ISS, the list with more of a Euro focus still has Larsson as #2. I can't get my head past how he can play top minutes against adults while playing through injury at 17-18 yo. I wonder how he can be anything other than elite. He also blew my socks off at the WJCs on a skill basis. Had no trouble moving the puck, defending his zone or scoring points.

    Reads IMO are the toughest thing for a Dman to learn; it sometimes takes years to learn how to read and react properly. Comes under the "sense" category for me. Two defensemen in this draft already do it quite well.

    I should also say when I apply the term "elite" in my head I am composing the quality in two ways. Half of the quality comes from where the player ranks against past prospects, half the quality comes from how the player ranks against his own prospect year (like exam results for a class that are placed on a curve).

    Keep in mind too, that from the point of view of upside, I have Larsson and RNH as pretty much a coin flip, with the edge to Larsson because of his physical attributes and haven proven his ability against men already... ie. he has less downside risk and is a safer pick while presenting as much potential.

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  8. Nice work. Some good comparisons.

    Brodin is way too high though. He is a 165lb Dmen with limited offensive upside and will not go top 20 - nor should he.

    I am also worried about Larssen's propensity to get hurt. Not a good sign for a guy who uses his body.

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  9. Potential Cons of drafting RNH?

    >Size could be an issue
    >PP production skewing his numbers.
    >He may sit in junior for another year.
    >Supposed WHL jinx
    >Renders Sam Gagner irrelevant?
    >Divorce moniker makes for expensive jersey purchase

    Potential Cons of drafting Larsson?

    >Drafting D-men with high picks is supposedly a bad idea.
    >He may not be Nik Lidstrom.
    >May lack PP QB offensive upside

    RE: Larsson: To the first point, I would offer Drew Doughty and Victor Hedman as recent examples to the contrary. To the 2nd point, if this is the worst thing they can say about a player, that's pretty damn good IMO. To the third point, could you not say the same thing about Scott Stevens?

    The Oil badly need a player like Larsson and I think the Magnificent Bastard knows it. Barring a trade to move Gagner or Hemsky, I think the Oil WILL draft the slick swede first overall.

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  10. Brodin's size is noted. He had more points than "offensive threat" Klefbom, and I cannot ignore the comments on his hockey sense. We talk about Dmen developing by sundial. This kid already gets what it takes years for most to learn. That quality is very very rare. Guys with brains like that will find their offense along the way. There is certainly nothing wrong with his pass.

    That said, I am aware most lists have him lower, but I put more emphasis on that elite sense than others. I obviously think he will be the surprise of the draft on D.

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  11. A pure math point of view (Part 2)

    N11. Zack Phillips : Zack is the guy who probably would have sneaked in the top 10 in any other conditions. He was on a strong team, and on a line with N2 prospect Jonathan Huberdeau. When looking at prospects with high numbers it's always important to check if he's being dragged along by someone else. What pushed for him at this points was that, he still put up 44 points in his first junior year and that, Stanislav Galiev, the 3rd man on the line, despite being an already older and drafted player, didn't get to see his numbers go up. The same was to say of their PP mate, Michael Kirkpatrick. All of this I believe suggests a true evolution of Phillips, Instead of pumping by Huberdeau. His playoff/memorial cup performance went to confirm this. He can play both wing and center which plays to his advantage.

    Junior Comparable: Evander Kane

    N12. Ryan Murphy : Mr. Murphy is certainly one that puts my ''pure math'' point of view in doubt. Well that's all in appearance. I think was really pushed Murphy down is the lack of track record for defenseman his size being successful. Really they're not a bunch and they usually come from older times. Still, he probably is the player with the most odds of making me look like a fool. If he ends up being successful, it'l probably me a major success, and if he busts out, he'l probably end up in the MAB zone. So either way the 12 spot will either look high or low. That's why he's there. I don't think there's really any way of projecting what Murphy will be like. Just such a rare phenomenon. I think what would have helped to evaluate, was to see if Ellis saw some NHL/AHL action, but that wasn't the case (At least, 7 games isn't enough). In all and all, he stays up there because, it seems ridiculous to pass on a guy from the blue who scores more than his forward counterparts at that point. Ultimately if he fails as a defender can you convert him? Maybe. Murphy is surrounded by mystery, that's why he ranks so low compared to other rankings.

    Junior Comparable: MAB

    N13. Duncan Siemens : Normally the math doesn't rank shutdown d-man really high. But Duncan showed just enough offense so that the could be considered for a future 1st pairing d-man, without the pains of passing inability. One of the things that plays in his favor is that he is very young, he just turned 17 when beginning the season, and will only turn 18 when the pre-season begins. In a lot of ways he made me think about Alex Plante, but these are two different cases. I think, the fact that he put up very decent numbers for a shutdown man in his first year, shows that his offense didn't come out of the blue. He was probably the 2nd option on the blue, behind Stefan Elliot for the season, which probably slowed him down a bit, and compensated for playing on a top notch team. He was a rare fellow to play all 72 junior games this year. At worst he'l become a guy who can defend, skate and make a 1st pass like Ladi Smid.

    Junior Comparable: Brent Seabrook

    (Stupid post limit)

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  12. N14. Matt Puempel : Probably one of the guys who lost the most feathers during the course of the season. He played on an absolutely putrid Peterborough team, which hurt his case a lot. The farmer from kid from Essex County, is the 2nd in the whole crop of CHL forwards for the goal/assist ratio. Some people have questioned his drive. I guess it becomes normal when you're playing on a team that won 20 games out of 72. But then again, I think it's safe to say he's out of that criticism. You simply don't score goals in hockey if you don't have drive. That's almost nonexistent, unless if you have a shot like a laser beam. It takes effort to score, it takes a lot of suffering to score, it takes a lot of pride. His +- was the most horrible of all the players in this range of the draft. But then again so was the +- of all his teammates, and former first round pick, Austin Watson. He was the best man of a sinking ship, and props for him to take such a task at 17 years old.

    Junior Comparable: Peter Mueller

    N15. Joel Armia : I think the Finnish guys are the hardest to evaluate of all. It seems like a lot of them will develop later on. Guys who make their country proud at the INT competitions like Mikko Koivu and Jussi Jokinen, either just didn't score when they were drafted, or were playing junior. Then you have a guy like Olli Jokinen who potted 40 points in his draft year, and arguably is a lesser player than Mikko who only logged 1 helper. Joel logged 29 points with Assat Pori, who didn't include a lot of high scorers. In between Olli Jokinen and Tuomo Ruutu. A lot of people have put Armia kind of low, or saw him regress. Not the case here. Out of his 29 points, 19 were goals. It's a pretty rare feat for a finn rookie to have such numbers, going to the goal side. Usually it's a flurry of assists you see. That's what puts him so high on the list. He's been scoring a lot against man, and he's another who's drive has been questioned. Well, same answer, without heart and hustle, you just don't score goals, unless you're something exceptional. Well, I think at that point it's a bet you can take. He's well ahead of ancient finn first rounders, and that's all to his advantage. Big guys with scoring are so rare, can't help but to jump on it. (Ironically, you can always pick a coke machine).

    Junior Comparable: Tuomo Ruutu.

    11 to 15, 16 to 20 later tonight.

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  13. Spoiler: my last post on the last article was not a question of you. I really enjoyed the post and really enjoyed this one.

    I have allways had a RNH comparable. he reminds me of a smaller Mike modano in his 16 year old season with the raiders. got physically dominated and relied on his speed and older teammates (Elyniak, Todd, Issel) to create his space. problem is Modano's shot was better. the 17 year old Modano jesus.

    Liked your recognition of Ritchie. I think his last half numbers say better than benn.

    Armias math says great. But the word on drive can be a key.

    Watch a dman named Dean kolstad who's leg stride and size said NHL.

    His last year in the dub his dad came to watch and met him in the hallway. Said his son has lots of skill. Father said he won't make it cause the coaches expect him to fight @ 6'6" and it was not in him.

    His dad was correct. Christ his foot turn was amazing.

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  14. ricki: I didn't take it as a personal attack or anything, more of a philosphical disagreement. And hell, I expect people to rip the list to shredz. That's one of the reasons why we do it, isn't it?

    I know I am going out on a limb with picks like Brodin, Ritchie, C Murphy.

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  15. There's a guy over at HF who apparently has a bit of a track record (with Winnipeg and Lubomir specifically)..

    Anyway, he says, paraphrased:

    Oilers close to a deal for a #1 C from an Eastern team. Top 6 winger, top 4 D and a pick headed the other way. None of PRV/Hall/Eberle involved.

    Gotta figure it's Philly.

    Richards or Carter for Gagner + Smid + 19th OV?

    That's gotta be too good to be true, no?

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  16. Wow, all opinions aside great post spOILer. So much thought and research. Very refreshing and unique take on the draft. Is Lowetide and spOILer the best duo in Edmonton since Stauff and Spec ?

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  17. If they do acquire carter, does that mean larsson goes first or are they still taking rnh?

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  18. Jesus, PDO, you've got my adrenaline going... but wouldn't that mean we have strayed from The Plan?

    OT...

    Kerry Fraser is one of the best reasons to visit TSN these days. Here he has more stories from the past:

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=368750

    Ryan: I hardly think I am in LT's class, and there's guys like Speeds and Blue Bullet who have much longer track record at ranking prospects than I have.

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  19. PDO, I'd be worried they're talking about Hemsky, they did say winger, not center. Other than HOPE, what other top six winger do we have besides Hemsky?

    Hemsky, Smid and the 19th starts to look kind of steep for Carter.

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  20. Adam: If Philly made a deal with us for Carter, it wouldn't be Hemsky going back. The whole point of the deal would be to clear some cap room which they wouldn't be doing by bringing back Hemsky's money.

    With that said, I'm going to keep beating my dead horse and say a deal is unlikely. Given that Philly has other options available to meet the cap, I think they'll only trade Carter if they can get some good, cheap parts in return. Assuming they are shopping him, how likely is it that the rebuild-or-bust Oilers would give up enough cheap youth to make it work?

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  21. Brian Little / Nik Andropov / Tim Connelly / Scott Gomez / Tyler Bozak are all top 6 C's in the East. If it's Hemsky, Gilbert and the 19th going that way are we back on plan?

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  22. I don't see how Hemsky or Gilbert in a Carter trade helps Philly with their cap situation. Especially if you're talking Hesmky or Gilbert + something else. They both only shave a million + off their cap hit. Unless we are taking another dump back???

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  23. Nice list Spoiler,I especially like how you break them into tiers.Very well thought.I thought I watched a lot of hockey but I don't think I compare in the hours/day stat.

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  24. Can we please define what "Top 6 C/W?" really means?

    If its a top F from Philly, I'm happy. Not so much if its with say Toronto...

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  25. PDO said the deal was for a #1 C. Pretty sure the other team involved wouldn't be Toronto, or Winnipeg for that matter.

    merolsfu- Afrikaans for "me love stu"

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  26. Vish: PDO said the deal was for a #1 C. Pretty sure the other team involved wouldn't be Toronto, or Winnipeg for that matter.


    One man's trash is another man's treasure?

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  27. Bobby Mac said in his combine blog post the he thinks the Oil are deciding between RNH and Larsson, with an outside chance Landeskog and Huberdeau are in the conversation.

    If a 1C is coming this way, would that mean that RNH is out of the picture and it's now between Larsson and Landeskog?

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  28. Spoiler: even if these mystery rumours of a #1 C were true, I don't necessarily think it would change the Oilers' draft calculations. If, by some miracle, they acquired Carter, part of the deal might be to send Gagner the other way. In which case, there's still a need for a C. Moreover, even if Gagner doesn't move, I don't think the Oilers are in a position to do anything but BPA - and based on the rumours we've heard thus far, I think they probably give the edge to RNH anyways.

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  29. Spoiler: Yeah, you would certainly think so.

    Oilers look good on the wings so unless the thought is that the big swede's a 30 goal and plus player then you take Larsson; and the big winger is always the guy that's intrigued me

    I mean you could go and try and build a D by committee but if you believe in Larsson and Jeff Carter's in the fold then I think you take the D.

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  30. LT: drop me an email when you get a chance: mwhite.dking@nf.sympatico.ca

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  31. It seems that the only teams in the east that could possibly be offering up a "#1C" would be Ottawa with Spezza and Philly with Carter/Richards/Briere.

    For the return to be right, it seems that it would have to include Hemsky, Smid, and the 19th overall. The problem, as someone already pointed out, is that including Hemsky in the deal doesn't do much to alleviate Philly's cap woes.

    The only other player who is not one of the rookies and could be considered a top 6 winger is Omark. If you were Philly, would you trade any of your centres for Omark, Smid, and a 19th pick? I wouldn't.

    The deal as proposed doesn't make a ton of sense, unless Philly is really sweating under the gun with the Bryzgalov negotiation, which is a possibility. They have 58.969 million on the cap for next season already. That includes 18 players, but you can probably subtract 1.5 million and a roster spot for Leighton. So, 57.469 with 17 players.

    Assuming a 4.75 cap hit for Bryzgalov on an 7-9 year deal, they are flush to the projected cap for next year. This does not include re-signing any of Zherdev, Carcillo, Leino, Nodl, Powe, and another defender. Realistically they'll let Zherdev and Carcillo walk, but they'll probably want Leino, Nodl, and Powe. That'll run them in the area of 4 million dollars.

    In conclusion, it seems like they absolutely need to move either Carter or Versteeg and Carle. I doubt there are any takers for the latter package. If Tambellini can take advantage of Philly in this situation he'd be deserving of kudos. For once it'd be us acquiring the face card and sending away the sixes and sevens.

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  32. If it'z Gomez, I will be pissing my pants in hilarity.

    Spoiler: Well if you ask it to be reduced to shred.

    I've talked long and large about guys who had trouble scoring in the US/Canada junior systems. As you probably have seen, I've set a mendoza line concerning that after numerous researches trough the HockeyDB. And you've got 5 players in the 19-30 range who are under it. Miller, Murphy, Saad, Ritchie and Jurco.

    The conversion rate on those type of players into top 6 forwards was exceptionally low (5%, 2/31).

    So my question becomes : Why do you nick guys like Armia so much? I know he lacked drive but his scoring in the FNL was downright exceptional. So few finn prospects have attained that. Catenacci and other ''tweeners'' are still above the line, and still mathematically possess more odds of turning into top 6 forwards.

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  33. FPB:

    No doubt, that was a tough one. At the midterm mark I had Armia higher than Bartschi, but sine then have seen him play 5-6 times and he's left me unimpressed.

    His boxcars are great but the road to the NHL is littered with guys who have plenty of skill and no try. Since this is not a mock draft but an attempt to rank guys on whether they will make the NHL and if so what role they might fill, my feeling with Armia is that (like Jensen) unless he finds some heart within himself, he's gonna fall by the wayside.

    Certainly if he had displayed that level of try, I'd have him in the top 15, and probably still ahead of Bartschi, but this exercise (to me) isn't just about points potential, it's about having the commitment and determination and courage to play tough, hard hockey at the highest level. Missing those qualities is a dealbreaker for me.

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  34. Spoiler: Ok. So you rank them in odds of making it, rather than ultimate potential?

    Jon K: Philly reportedly offered 5,25 to Bryzgalov.

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  35. Re: Trade Rumour...

    There could be another salary coming back besides that of the 1C.

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  36. That crazy rumour speculation about a centre could also be Weiss (although Weiss would have to have agreed to waive his NMC).

    Weiss for one of (Gagner (or Cogliano), one of (Smid or Gilbert), and the #19.

    I hope its NOT Spezza.

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  39. FPB:

    It is on a risk-reward basis. Commitment being one of the bigger risks. Jensen gets a lower risk rating because he moved from Europe to the OHL.

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  40. Ugh, Spezza would be a tragic disaster. $7M per for another 4 years? The guy is basically Gagner + 20-30 points (i.e. no defence).

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  41. Kudos for ranking Ryan Murphy at No.3

    I think one of the teams with the #4-8 pick who won't be as influenced by consensus pressure will end up with him (assume he's not taken in the top 4) and might be extremely thankful for that in the future.

    In the limited number of viewings, I think he may have better physical tools than Ellis. Ellis put up and his numbers on a stacked team and I think he also has some skating issues whereas Murphy can absolutely fly. But hard to say who has the better hockey sense. Ellis' hockey IQ seems to be through the roof.

    Below are the top 20 highest Pts/game put up by CHL dmen since 1990 in their first draft-eligible season and also some other notables (Murphy ranks pretty high up there...):

    Rank draf rnd pick pts ppg name league
    001 2009 001 011 89 1.561 Ryan Ellis OHL
    002 1991 001 003 82 1.439 Scott Niedermayer WHL
    003 1995 001 001 75 1.293 Bryan Berard OHL
    004 1993 001 002 77 1.262 Chris Pronger OHL
    005 2011 000 000 79 1.254 Ryan Murphy OHL
    006 1993 001 016 61 1.245 Nick Stajduhar OHL
    007 2002 006 191 79 1.129 Ian White WHL
    008 2009 001 014 62 1.088 Dmitri Kulikov QMJHL
    009 1998 002 048 67 1.047 Jonathan Girard QMJHL
    010 2006 002 053 69 1.030 Mathieu Carle QMJHL
    011 2002 002 043 48 1.021 Trevor Daley OHL
    012 2008 001 003 61 1.017 Zach Bogosian OHL
    013 1997 001 009 64 1.016 Nick Boynton OHL
    014 1993 002 040 60 1.000 Bryan McCabe WHL
    015 1995 002 034 55 1.000 Jason Doig QMJHL
    016 2002 001 003 61 1.000 Jay Bouwmeester WHL
    017 2010 001 012 55 1.000 Cam Fowler OHL
    018 1991 002 041 69 0.986 Francois Groleau QMJHL
    019 2008 001 020 63 0.984 Michael Del Zotto OHL
    020 1997 001 007 43 0.977 Paul Mara OHL
    024 2001 001 012 59 0.952 Dan Hamhuis WHL
    037 2008 001 004 53 0.883 Alex Pietrangelo OHL
    038 2011 000 000 58 0.866 Dougie Hamilton OHL
    040 2008 001 002 50 0.862 Drew Doughty OHL
    047 2007 002 043 56 0.824 P.K. Subban OHL
    050 1994 001 001 50 0.806 Ed Jovanovski OHL
    078 2003 008 245 39 0.696 Dustin Byfuglien WHL
    099 2004 001 029 39 0.661 Mike Green WHL
    104 1996 001 001 40 0.656 Chris Phillips WHL
    107 1997 006 156 43 0.652 Brian Campbell OHL
    142 2003 001 014 42 0.609 Brent Seabrook WHL
    253 2008 001 005 28 0.491 Luke Schenn WHL
    299 2005 003 062 32 0.457 Kristopher Letang QMJHL
    341 2003 001 009 30 0.423 Dion Phaneuf WHL
    365 1997 001 005 29 0.408 Eric Brewer WHL
    711 2003 002 049 18 0.257 Shea Weber WHL

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  42. Has anyone actually checked the underlying numbers on Spezza? Last time I check they were pretty damn good.

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  43. Not really challenging anything regarding the positioning with the picks. I was always on board with the idea of euros playing against men and giving them advantages over their CHL peers.

    But we've seen it with Paajarvi and I think the benefits of playing against men get outweighed by the factors of moving across the world, the smaller ice, and the faster game.

    To me Hall and Eberle looked better equipped to handle the NHL then Paajarvi did but MPS finished strong.

    I guess I'm saying that the advantages that come from playing in the elite euro leagues seems to be cancelled out by the adjustments to the North American game.

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  44. @fpv. The Siemens comp to Seabrook is probably the best player to compare him too. He does skate better then Plante and he hasn't had a big injury like Plante so I'm not worried he'll go that route.

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  45. I wish I could slap the people who made the english classification tests for Quebec. God damn. It looks like pre-school stuff.

    I know my english isn't perfect, but still, what they put up is ridiculous.

    Listening to audio bits here are the answers we can choose as the most accurately portraying the situation. How anyone can have any doubts is beyond me.

    A)One of the kids was murdered.
    B)The babysitter enjoys looking after the kids.
    C)The kids get out of hand.
    D)The mother knows how the babysitter feels.

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  46. Sorry for double post but couldn't resist

    My sister plays the _______.
    A. concert
    B. piano
    C. store
    D. table

    !!!

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  47. Smarmy,

    Definitely understood on the Euros. I do think that those prospects from the SEL and the Finnish league who play and desire a more physical style, adapt more easily, like Hartikainen. Larsson and Zib are both like that and you could throw Klefbom in there too. But there is still a world of adjustment to make. Fortunately, this isn't about next year or the year after but, typically, 5 years down the road.

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  48. @FPB

    "I know my english isn't perfect"

    No kidding!?

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  49. Macaotim: So Tim, what other languages do you speak outside of English?

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  50. i really hope RNH 'fills out?'

    although didn't a Larsson win four league titles in seven years with Celtic F.C.?

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