The look on Zack Stortini's face said it all. He'd been HS'd on opening night (either that or he'd been working the laundry room at Shawshank).
Zack Stortini 10-11
- 5x5 points per 60: 1.07 (12th among forwards but DNQ)
- 5x4 points per 60: nil
- Qual Comp: 12th toughest faced among forwards but DNQ
- Qual Team: best available teammates among forwards but DNQ
- Corsi Rel: -4.59 (11th best among forwards but DNQ)
- Zone Start: 45.2% (toughest among forwards but DNQ)
- Zone Finish: 41.6% (worst among regular forwards but DNQ)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 16 shots, no goals
- Boxcars: 32gp, 0-4-4
- Plus Minus: -2 on a team that was -52
- What do these numbers tell us? Stortini is credited with playing with the best available teammates, although the lines he played on (Fraser-Jacques 35%) (Fraser-Jones 31%) suggests otherwise. I think he played as well as one could expect with those linemates and the zone start. Tom Renney didn't think he could play a lot of roles.
- How could these numbers be better? Tom Renney handled him about the same as MacT and Quinn in terms of EV minutes (Quinn used him 9, Renney and MacT 7--all at evens). The only way they could have been effective minutes for the Oilers is with better linemates. Jim Dowd, that kind of guy.
- Why did Renney send him out? Two reasons, I think. First, Stortini's foot speed had to be a concern and second the PK was bleeding and the team had Reddox for that role in the minors. The Stortini firing came about for solid hockey reasons.
- How did he lose his role? First, we have to define his role. Stortini was a 4th liner who could agitate, fight some and not cost a lot of stupid goals or penalties. As long as those things were covered, I think Quinn and MacT felt he served a useful role.
- Why couldn't he keep this role? Tom Renney made some wonky roster decisions. He sent away guys like Omark and Reddox out of camp in favor of guys like Steve MacIntyre, J-F Jacques and Stortini. When the club was floundering on the PK and trying to juggle 5 guys who could neither take or make a pass, someone had to go.
- So he lost his job to Jacques? I guess so. I'd say he lost it to foot speed. It was bound to happen sooner or later, he wasn't touched by God or anything.
- Can he come back? Sure. He's a better player than a bunch of the end of the roster guys, but it's also true he was better than those guys the day he was sent out.
- Will he make the club in 11-12? I don't think it is a good idea to bring him back because he was holding on to an NHL job by a thread the whole time. An upgrade would be in order, or better yet keep someone like Reddox who can handle the "Toby Petersen" role.
- The "Toby Petersen" role? Yeah, a "jack of all trades" kid who can fill a few roles here and there and make himself useful. NHL coaches have kept these guys in business for decades.
- Will he get another NHL shot? Sure. Stortini has 256 NHL games behind him, someone will give him a contract and he'll do enough useful things to get a callup when injuries hit. I wouldn't be shocked to see MacT trade for him (or wait for the Oilers to decline to qualify) and use him in the exact same way in Minnesota. Then again, these players are readily available.
- Who takes his job next season? Hmmm. I'll say Reddox, but Colin McDonald is an interesting player.
•07-08 5x5 per 60m: 1.24
•08-09 5x5 per 60m: 1.76
•09-10 5x5 per 60m: 1.04
•10-11 5x5 per 60m: 1.07
Prediction for 2010-11: 66gp 4-7-11 (.167)
Actual 2010: 32gp, 0-4-4 (.125)
Lost his job to Jacques after all
Ah Zorg, I knew him Horacio.
ReplyDeleteI already miss Zorg.
ReplyDeleteOnly thing I would disagree with you on LT is that MacT will not have to trade for him. If he's qualified (as an RFA) and they try to slip him thru waivers, MacT will be pick him up that way.
Rich: Yeah. Although there's a real chance he doesn't get qualified by the Oilers.
ReplyDeletePersonally I think the "Toby Petersen" role should be a 13th and/or 14th forward. I think Colin Fraser has that all but locked up, just because he has a contract and Reddox doesn't. Unless he pissed off the brass so much with his play, they'll buy him out.
ReplyDeleteI'm looking for one of these guys to take over for Zorg and Big Mac....
1. Ben Eager
2. Trevor Gillies
3. Zenon Konopka
4. Darcy Hordichuk
5. Michael Rupp
6. Cam Janssen
7. Francis Lessard
As for Hartikainen, he's pushed JFJ off of a cliff to steal his gig.
I don't think they qualify him. He's gone.
ReplyDeleteHope you're right, LT, about him getting another shot elsewhere as a jack-of-all-trades. He's a good team player who has lots of positive attributes and a nice bit of experience for a role player of his age. And a good guy, to boot.
@DangerMan: Trevor Gillies? Puh-leeze.
ReplyDeleteLet's put it this way. Of the 735 skaters who played 20+ games this year, Steve MacIntyre had the second worst Corsi, at -30.24. The only guy who was worse was Trevor Gillies at, get this, -52.07 !!
Third worst was Zenon Konopka.
Can we please talk about bringing in real hockey players to play these roles? That was why I was a Stortini supporter all along, the guy didn't kill the team on the ice.
Ah yes............ The anticipatory he won't clear waivers fear
ReplyDeleteI actually like Zorg but he is marginal NHLer on a mediocre or bad team. hope he gets another chance somewhere but see no reason to sign him here
Continuing the other thread
ReplyDeleteCouturier vs top 6 teams:
2 G 5 A 7 PTS vs Shawinigan (6 GP)
3 G 3 A 6 PTS vs Bathurst (3 GP)
3 G 5 A 8 PTS vs Gatineau (4 GP)
3 G 1 A 4 PTS vs Quebec (2 GP)
3 G 4 A 7 PTS vs Montreal (5 GP)
2 G 5 A 7 PTS vs SNB (3 GP)
39 Points in 23 for 1,69 PPG against the toughs for Couturier.
Hat Tricks :
1 Quebec (3/18)
2 Goals games:
Montreal, (2/18), Gatineau (5/18), Rimouski (12/18), Val D'Or (14/18), Bathurst (6/18), Rouyn-Horanda (18/18), Lewiston (8/18)
Multi goal games came on teams 8.5/18 in average.
Couturier was certainly perfoming in ''Crunch Time''
@Bruce
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying the Oilers have to marry these guys, its not like tough guys have a long shelf life. Just someone who knows his role, be a dink and stir things up, and hopefully play more than the 25 seconds a game that big mac was playing.
Just someone who understands the concept of "you mess with our guys, we'll mess with yours". Big Mac nor Stortini showed me anything that they could do that properly, so time to give someone else a try.
BTW Corsi shouldn't relate to tough guys, they don't play enough to make a lick of difference in those numbers.
Dys to the final four.
ReplyDeleteOur long national nightmare continues.
Now, do they get a monument for winning this round or just a banner?
ReplyDeleteI think we can all agree, this may be the greatest second round victory of all time.
ReplyDeletebatingly... heh
Kesler gets cast in bronze and has a street named after him in time to have the ceremony before the WCF starts.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty obvious Kesler has cemented his jersey retirement and Hughson has secured his emcee role in said ceremonies.
ReplyDeleteKesler gets cast in bronze and has a street named after him in time to have the ceremony before the WCF starts.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind having Kesler encased in bronze, Han Solo style.
@ other john: It's not a fear (he won't clear waivers). Management could care less if he does or does not at this point because Renney has already made the decision.
ReplyDeleteAnd no one claimed him last time through.
But to LT's other point - it's likely he doesn't even get qualified.
Nothing coming easy for Van, but unfortunately they're learning how to finally win. Sure hope SJ or Det can stop them in the next round.
Noodles: THat's Carbonite.
ReplyDeleteYou Fool.
(jk)
I am aware of that. But Woodguy said bronze, so I went with it :)
ReplyDeleteWhere are the Hutts when you needs them.
ReplyDeleteDon't you mean the moops?
ReplyDelete@fbv....So if SC played so well against the top 6 he must have really lit up the bottom 6.
ReplyDelete21 games played against the bottom 6 teams,for a total of 37 points or 1.76 points per game playing the
dregs.Hardly what one would expect.
Hockeyguy: Shows more consistency?
ReplyDeleteIdk. But I find that preferable to one bursts here and there.
fbv..idk either.Maybe that's where his ranking is getting hurt a little.Instead of dominating the easy teams,he is in coast mode and getting points just because.
ReplyDeleteHockeyGuy: Well that depends on how you see it.
ReplyDeleteTo me it's a guy who's dominating Junior against whoever he's playing, and he doesn't necesarily see the need of bashing teams they already win 8-0 against.
I personally would prefer someone who proved he could keep the pace against anyone, than someone who stacked on the dregs.
Well damn. Even if you don't really like basketball, what a game between OKC and Memphis. Last seconds 3 point to tie the game.
ReplyDeleteHuberdeau vs top 6 teams:
ReplyDelete1 G 5 A 6 PTS vs Shawinigan (2 GP)
7 G 5 A 12 PTS vs Bathurst (8 GP)
0 G 2 A 2 PTS vs Gatineau (2 GP)
2 G 1 A 3 PTS vs Quebec (2 GP)
2 G 0 A 2 PTS vs Montreal (2 GP)
1 G 2 A 3 PTS vs Drumondville (3 GP)
28 Points in 19 games against the toughs for Huberdeau (1,47 PPG)
Hat Tricks :
1 Bathurst (6/18)
2 Goals games:
Montreal, (2/18), Halifax (15/18), Moncton (9/18), Moncton (9/18), Bathurst (6/18), Montreal (9/18),
Multi goal games came on teams 8/18 in average.
RNH Against the dregs (Bottom 6 teams):
ReplyDelete4 G 6 A 10 PTS Calgary (5 Games)
6 G 5 A 11 PTS Swift Current (4 games)
1 G 6 A 7 PTS Regina (3 games)
1 G 5 A 6 PTS Lethbridge (5 games)
0 G 1 A 1 PTS Seattle (1 game)
0 G 2 A 2 PTS Kamloops (2 games)
37 Points in 20 games against the dregs for 1,85 PPG.
FPB
ReplyDeleteI wonder which all star player doesn't pad his stats against lousy teams? I remember Gretzky regularly getting 5 points against the Tony Tanti crappy Canucks, and a couple of 8 points nights against even worse Minnesota before they drafted Modano.
More recently I am sorry to say I think Iginla seems to score 8 of his 40 goals against the Oilers, at least it seems that way.
As for the tough guy who can play Scott Hartnell must be available to any team who will take his contract, one goal in the playoffs for a 4.25 million cap hit, but he would fit in nicely protecting Hall or RNH, probably get him back to 30 goals too.
I would love to go after Glencross as well, give you two dirty bastards in the top nine.
On Hartnell, Philly could use his cap space to sign a goalie like Vokoun or someone.
ReplyDeleteCogliano to Hartnell makes sense for both teams I think.
Cogliano may progress, they don't have too many smurfs. We need toughness that can play top 6 and have all the cap space needed.
Oilersfan: Well justly.
ReplyDeleteDon't you think proving you can play better against the toughs is more important than being able to pad against the dregs?
That's just a plus for Couturier, since he hasn't been (IMO), while he logically should be able to.
FPB
ReplyDeletein 1985 the Oilers beat the Flyers 4 games to 1. Perhaps LT or Bruce could correct me but if memory serves I think he got 2 points in that series.
He also had a hard time getting points against Boston.
Sometimes some defensive teams are hard for anyone to score against.
I don't think RNH is as good as Gretzky but my point is that even the best get shut down sometimes.
I think if 6 out of 10 scouts who have seen them both play probably 20 times think RNH is better, he probably is.
Ryan Whitney on TSN a week ago said the second best player in the NHL after Crosby is Pavel Datsyuk. Go look how many points he was getting when he was 17, even when he was 21.
Most compare RNH to Datsyuk and if he ends up being that good, that is a hell of a pick.
Couturier sounds a little too precious for the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, he was so weak, they had to have interviews stopped, as interviews with the mean old press might interfere with his mood swings.
RNH Against the dregs (Bottom 6 teams):
ReplyDelete4 G 6 A 10 PTS Calgary (5 Games)
He's a Calgary killer. Draft him!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePop Quiz:
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know which choker put up these sucky numbers vs the top 6 teams (excluding than his own) in his league (as defined by the highest goals diff) in his draft year?
Date Team Pts +/-
2009-10-23 PLY 0 -1
2009-11-06 WSR 0 -1
2009-11-11 MIS 0 -2
2009-11-13 LDN 3 -1
2009-11-14 PLY 1
2009-11-22 OTT 0 -2
2009-11-24 LDN 2
2009-12-11 LDN 0 -1
2009-12-13 WSR 2 +2
2009-12-29 BAR 2 -4
2010-01-01 PLY 3 +1
2010-01-09 PLY 1
2010-01-15 MIS 1
2010-01-21 LDN 0
2010-01-22 WSR 2 +2
2010-01-26 LDN 1 -2
2010-01-30 BAR 0 -1
2010-02-11 WSR 1 -1
2010-02-26 OTT 0 -2
2010-03-04 LDN 1 -1
Totals: GP:20, PTS:20, PlusMinus:-14
;)
@choppy...Jeff Skinner
ReplyDeleteFPB seems hell bent on turning every single comments section into a "Sean Couturier for 1st overall!" thread.
ReplyDeleteToo bad Oilers management isn't making the decision based on content from this website. Why don't you start an email campaign to Stu or Steve instead FPB? It might be marginally more effective than crusading here constantly.
Uni: Originally I only answered on someone who wanted the numbers on RNH.
ReplyDeleteAnd then I posted the others by curiosity.
Idk it became illegal to post relevant numbers when they're was someone you like in play.
On the passing of Zorg (because I too don’t think he will be qualified this summer). This speech is one he could easily make
ReplyDeleteTo be, or not to be an Oiler: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous roster decisions,
Or to take arms against a sea of goons, And by opposing end them? To fight: to play;
No more; and by playing to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand goals against
That this line-up is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To fight, to play;
To play: perchance to score: ay, there's the rub;
For in that positive corsi what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this losing team,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long a career;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of Renney,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised pressboxing, the law's suspensions,
The insolence of Tambellini's office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy fan takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare head? who would punches bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary fight,
But that the dread of something after this team,
The undiscover'd teams from whose bourn
No player returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
It is WG's fault, he got me thinking of Hamlet.
ReplyDeleteprolo - the general expectation of fans for their teams in Edmonton
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteStu's got his guy picked. For him, there is no debate at this point. We might as well just wait to see who it is.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSaw a rumour on ESPN.com this morning that the Caps might be thinking about moving Mike Green, but that it could be tough considering his suddenly alarming injury history.
ReplyDeleteHe's making the same actual money as Hemmer next season (last on both deals), with a $5 million cap hit.
Just sayin...
Idk it became illegal to post relevant numbers when they're was someone you like in play.
ReplyDeleteI've enjoyed your posts but they did start out as an attempt to criticize RNH. That has coloured the other info you have put forward.
The more info about other players you do put forward tends to point out the limited use you can make of any of it. Most players are going to score more against weaker opponents. But without TOI, the number of PP's, whether a backup G was playing, etc, etc, there is too much information missing to make much sense of it.
"Cogliano to Hartnell makes sense for both teams I think."
ReplyDeleteLet's hope Paul Holmgren doesn't read this blog. If he read the above, I think his chest cavity would explode from convulsive laughter.
Let's trade a gritty and physical guy who was an absolute lynchpin for our team in our last Cup final run for a marginal smurf with no definable competitive advantage save for straight line speed. Yep, makes perfect sense.
FPB, relevant information fine. The information that you post lately seems to be of the "RNH is crap, Couturier is obvious!" nature which is off putting. Also you brought it into this thread, the same as you have in most other threads.
ReplyDeleteOn top of that, the numbers you're constantly putting forward aren't very useful without context. LT pointed out before, on ON I think, that without detailed TOI numbers everything is essentially a practice on wishful thinking.
I could be wrong, but I believe your approach is that you have a fixed conclusion in mind that is permanently set, and all your efforts are focused on working backwards from there, grasping at anything that can remotely support it.
For what it's worth, I think Couturier is the superior pick to RNH. I only have Larsson a bit above him, but that's my own personal bias. I'm just a bit tired of your trying to convince us that everyone else is crap.
How about Khabibulin for Hartnell. Lower cap hit, and he's won a Stanley Cup!!!!1!!one!
ReplyDeletein 1985 the Oilers beat the Flyers 4 games to 1. Perhaps LT or Bruce could correct me but if memory serves I think he got 2 points in that series.
ReplyDeleteIf by "he" you mean "He" :), as in Wayne Gretzky, that couldn't be much further from the truth. In the '85 finals the Great One scored 7 goals to tie Jean Beliveau's record for most goals in a SCF, and added 4 assists for 11 points. He ended those playoffs with 47 points, still the record.
The 85 finals I only recall for the fact Oilers whalloped the Flyers in the final game...something like 8-3 going into the 3rd period of the final game.
ReplyDeleteThe 84 cup we know - their first
The 87 cup we know - their finest
The 88 cup we know - Gretzky's last
The 90 cup we know - Messier's team
But the 1985 cup seems to be forgotten.
@Hunter: For your reading pleasure.
ReplyDeleteHunter, sometimes I can understand your burning irrational hatreds around the Oilers. Having been witness to those '80s teams, it must be like going from surf'n'turf to rice cakes and salt water. I still think you're a bit nuts though =).
ReplyDeleteMy recollection of the Oilers were repeating heartbreaks against the heathen Stars. Never went in thinking they had a chance, and always hoped they'd pull it out. 1 goal games, lots of tries, and then elimination.
Until 2006 the only playoff memory I held fondly of them was the game where Belfour decided to go for a skate behind his net with seconds left in the third. Laraque came barreling down on him and I thought, "Great, he's going to give them a penalty to kill any last hope of a..." only to have my thought interrupted in the split second where Laraque veered off, neatly stole the puck, passed it to the front of the the net, and tied game...Oilers score later and win the game.
Well that and the Weight and Guerin hatties =).
Thanks Bruce. Looks like a spectacular cup, was that 85 one.
ReplyDeleteuni: I would have been a Red Wings fan if I were you. Believe it or not, Oiler fans used to think like winners, before the Kevin Lowe/MacT axis(:P) tempered expectations.
tset
ReplyDeleteLee
ReplyDeleteLast summer the Flyers play by play was on Gregor's show and said that Hartnell's contract was "Radioactive" and the Flyers couldn't give him away if they tried, and that they were trying so they could make some cap space.
Because of his bad contract, he is perceived as having negative value and I think could be had for close to nothing. I suggested Cogliano because I don't see where he fits in
Idk it became illegal to post relevant numbers when they're was someone you like in play.
ReplyDeleteThat is the very nature of Blog sites. I am being hacked for Not liking RNH and I used the Bad Boy Girlfreind Reference.
What is clear is there is difference from 1 to 7. then 8-40 has many perspectives. Do you trade down and still get a player of equal? i think the answer is yes.
Hartnell for Cogliano is just a salary dump.At least Philly probably doesn't have to do it enmasse like Chicago did.
ReplyDeleteBar Qu,
ReplyDelete*slow clap*
Brilliant!
I especially liked :
"To fight, to play;
To play: perchance to score: ay, there's the rub; For in that positive corsi what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this losing team,
Must give us pause"
I gotta give ol' Will most of the credit, but it was fun playing around with that speech. And doing an honor to the Oil's favorite whipping boy made it easier.
ReplyDeleteI will miss that proto-human grin.
Uni: I didn't chose the type of info, I only sorted out the ones of Huberdeau and Couturier after someone requested RNH's for comparison sake.
ReplyDeleteNot my damn fault if Couturier gets the high hand. I'm gonna say something that sounds fanatic, but my stats make it look like i always push for COuturier (Even if I do) because he seems to get the upper hand in every category imaginable. If you have some in favour of RNH or Larsson, then do it. That's the point of the exercise. The only thing I have in my hands is stats. That's the only I can post.
As for TOI, I think it's relevant, but not necessarily in this context. It's only to show where exactly the points came from. It's to assume everyone got a similar icetime for every of their game. (Relative to them not the others)
rickibear:
ReplyDeleteThe only team in the top-7 that I've heard any noise about in terms of them wanting to trade up is the Sens.
What do you think is a realistic return we could expect that would justify trading down from 1st to #6?
Moving down from 1st to 6th?
ReplyDeleteI would suggest Jared Cowen plus NSH 1st plus something else*.
*The way Lowe trades that something else would probably be a 2012 third rounder which becomes a second rounder if OTT makes it to the SCF.
Or Rundblad. Insane numbers for a D in the SEL.
ReplyDeletefpb
ReplyDeleteAs you have not made up your mind yet, I submit for your review the blubs from the Redline Report taken from the Top Prospects game -
#9 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins/C — Red Deer. 6-0/163. Was the best player on the ice for either team. Made a superb, short-ice backhand saucer pass to set up Bärtschi for 2nd goal. Threw several big hits and generally stuck his nose into traffic all night despite stick-thin build. Stepped in to protect Bärtschi against the much bigger Siemens when the latter was looking to intimidate and spoiling for a fight. A puck hound who was absolutely relentless in pursuit. Constantly dangerous every shift. Physical and fearless. Nimble on his skates. Very smart with great vision and soft hands. Moved the puck quickly and cut into open ice. Battled for possession of space and the puck. Showed a deceptive change of speed that baffled defenders all night.
#7 Sean Couturier/LC — Drummondville. 6-4/193. Used his big frame for puck protection. Showed good vision and was making tape-to-tape passes. Won some battles along the walls and competed for the puck, showing a physical edge at times. But overall a quiet game offensively. Appears to lack a 2nd gear when trying to drive past defenders to the net. This type of effort, coming off a lacklustre performance at the World Juniors, will not keep him in the top three.
Ducey: Are you really using one game with subjective factors as an argument?
ReplyDeletefpb: Looks like you're either going to be a genius or a complete dope, all based on how Couturier pans out. :p
ReplyDeletePop Quiz #2 (Afternoon Edition):
ReplyDeleteGuess the name of this bum who put up these rather so-so numbers against the top 6 teams (as defined by the highest goals diff) in his draft year:
Date Opp Pts +/-
2007-09-27 WSR 1
2007-09-30 KIT 0
2007-10-10 SSM 1 +1
2007-10-21 BRA 0
2007-11-01 WSR 4 -1
2007-11-23 KIT 1 -1
2007-11-24 SSM 0 -2
2007-11-28 SSM 0 -1
2007-12-09 SSM 1 -3
2008-01-18 NIAG 2 +2
2008-01-19 BELV 1 -1
2008-01-27 NIAG 1 -1
2008-01-31 BELV 3 +3
2008-02-07 WSR 0 -1
2008-02-15 WSR 2 +1
2008-02-16 SSM 1 -2
2008-02-21 SSM 0
2008-02-27 SSM 0 -4
2008-03-02 KIT 2 -1
2008-03-07 WSR 2 +2
2008-03-09 SSM 2 +1
2008-03-14 KIT 0 +1
Totals: GP:22, PTS:24, PlusMinus:-7
Sorry, no prize as usual :(
I'l guess Stamkos.
ReplyDeleteWas the answer to pop quiz 1 correct?
ReplyDeleteDoes that description of RNH from the top prospects game remind anyone else a bit of Theoren Fleury (hands, vision, edge, skating)? I've not seen him play, but Oilers could use a guy like that, whose middle name could have been "Compete" if it hadn't been "Semi-debilitating personal issues". We all hated Fleury the Flame, but away from Calgary remember how well he played with Gretz (all-star, Canada)? Is the comparison fair?
ReplyDelete"Castee" - what the Oilers will be when Zorg is cast-off
Correct. Skinner & Stamkos.
ReplyDeleteWe all hated Fleury the Flame...
ReplyDeleteI always kind of liked the little bastard, even before we knew the full extent of what he'd gone through. Never wanted the Flames to win, of course, against the Oilers or anybody else, but I always liked him more than the rest of them. Except Lanny MacDonald, but he was mostly before I was paying any attention.
(Time's given me some affection for Al McInnis, too.)
Our collective appreciation for Fleury grew out of his showing well with Wayne. Then we realised that, excepting the occasional brilliantly stupid penalty, he was quite a player. As opposed to some other Flames who are irredeemably evil (Tim Hunter, Joel Otto).
ReplyDeleteRNH take many penalties? I'd like to hear that he had more PIMs than most comparably sized WHLers.
Hunter & Otto are well down my list of evil Flames. Not saying they weren't evil, but these guys were eviller: Gary Suter, Neil Sheehy, Paul Baxter, Willi Plett, Mel Bridgman, Doug Risebrough, Jim Peplinski, Gary Roberts, Mike Vernon.
ReplyDeleteI hated the Flames something fierce. Including Otto and Hunter.