How little did he deliver? He ranked last among qualifying Oiler forwards with a 0.48 5x5/60. JF Jacques was 2nd to last at 0.85/60.
That's not the worst of it. According to behind the net.ca, there were 368 NHL forwards who played 40 or more games this past season. Fraser's 5x5/60 number ranks in a tie for 363rd overall with George Parros. It's not good.
Colin Fraser 10-11
- 5x5 points per 60: 0.48 (last among regular forwards)
- 5x4 points per 60: nil
- Qual Comp: 2nd easiest faced among regular forwards
- Qual Team: 3rd best available teammates among regular forwards
- Corsi Rel: -9.6 (11th best among regular forwards)
- Zone Start: 47.0% (toughest among regular forwards)
- Zone Finish: 50.3% (9th best among regular forwards)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 57/5.3% (16th best among F's but DNQ)
- Boxcars: 67gp, 3-2-5
- Plus Minus: -2 on a team that was -52
- What do these numbers tell us? Fraser didn't deliver much offense but there wasn't much give either. However, his relCorsi number tells us the ice was indeed slanted and this was against the 2nd easiest opposition available. He did have an extremely tough zone start and has a nice zone finish number based on where he started. So it isn't all bad, but the needle didn't move a lot.
- How could these numbers be better? Well, he could impact the game more offensively. If the Qualcomp number is correct then the Oilers gave up a tremendous amount of the soft parade to a guy who couldn't hit above the Mendoza line.
- Anything else? He had more PIMs than one would think and he didn't win faceoffs much. I'm tempted to suggest that Fraser would do much better with linemates who had NHL experience but you could say that about anyone.
- Who were his linemates? He played most often with Jacques-Stortini (15.51%) and Jones-Stortini (14%). That's not exactly the '27 Yankees.
- And he was -2! He certainly did play calm EV minutes. Of course, he played 7.5 minutes a night at evens with subpar linemates against putrid opposition so it was also the least watchable hockey available under lights.
- What do they do with him now? He's signed to another year and one would expect that he'll come to camp and fight for an NHL job. If Anton Lander shows well, or Vande Velde looks like he did in a late season audition then there's a chance Fraser plays in OKC in 11-12.
- You liked him. I liked him in a depth role. In this post I wrote "the depth chart above needs work and there are affordable free agent options available. A veteran center to help Horcoff and Fraser on the PK, a veteran RW to mentor the kids when they're struggling. I don't see Fraser and Jones as being those veterans who can fill the FO/PK/mentor role, but if we slide through August without any movement the die will be cast. We're buying lottery tickets."
- Maybe the Oilers should have signed John Madden instead from that Hawks team? A young John Madden is just what the doctor ordered. I'd rather see the Oilers keep Fraser on the big club and let VV and Lander prove they're ready in OKC.
- What about PK? Cogliano and Fraser were the main centers, with Cogliano showing quite well and Fraser doing fine (if I'm reading this correctly).
- So he'll be in the mix? Yeah. Fraser had a solid 5x5/60 with Chicago in 09-10 playing the soft parade. If the Oilers had enough good players he could do it again. I don't think he can have any kind of impact offensively with men like Jacques and Stortini, though. The Oilers have other options and one day when they hire a veteran 2-way C Fraser is down the line. Either that or a fast rookie will send him to Oklahoma in October.
Prediction for 2010-11: 75gp, 8-14-22 (.293
Actual 2010: 67gp, 3-2-5 (.075)
Mario Mendoza never hit .075
My indifference to Fraser is right up there with Brule.And Foster.
ReplyDeleteWith the extra year on all 3 of those contracts we're just biding our time with these guys-they'll be at camp and the jobs are theirs to lose.
Just checked out Mendoza.
ReplyDeleteHow the hell could he survive being bad so long?
Seems like NHL backups, as long as you're cheap and have played before, you'l get hired.
Math doesn't like him, visuals don't like him.....not usually this harsh but this guy is just a waste of roster spot.
ReplyDeleteLT, how can that QUALTEAM number be right? You even said subpar linemates later in your post, but that QUALTEAM is in direct conflict with that statement.
ReplyDeleteI think the math falls in a hole when we talk about players with abysmal abilities to put the puck in the net.
ReplyDeleteEven if JFJ had a corsi of +4288249 he probably wouldn't shoot enough to make compensate his shit hands.
spOILer: I know. Something's wonky, which makes me question the numbers this season. I'm not sure how it happened, but do know that Renney rolled a lot of the lines.
ReplyDeleteSomething is wonkt with qual/comp/team re: the Oilers. No doubt.
I wouldn't mind seeing him as 5c this coming season. I wouldn't be concerned about him missing development time in the press box. His only super-power, that of "not bleeding chances against", is useful a useful quality for someone who would primarily be used when a short term fill in is needed.
ReplyDeleteI imagine you must be saving the Dylan song "What Good Am I" from the excellent 1989 record "Oh Mercy" for Khabibulin. If you aren't, that song would be an ideal choice for Fraser.
ReplyDeleteNot that I have any problem with the song choice listed.
Agreed, LT. Some kinda funny business.
ReplyDeleteTo take the matter further, I would be leery to say those numbers are correct for other teams when the same methodology is used. I don't see how rolling the lines will mess up QUALTEAM. MacT Blendermatic might do it but not line rolling.
I would like to see TOI considered as a possible factor in QUAL numbers.
I was thinking Positively 4th Street.
ReplyDeleteThe whole first album from song one side one, "You're No Good" to the last song on the record, "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean".
ReplyDeleteWhat a nutty first period. This keeps up, Miller will lose his rherchip.
ReplyDeleteHe's signed and seems a guy who can fill the 14th forward role for a year - much better him than a useless lug like Mac.
ReplyDeleteWord verification = proner
...as in the opposite of boner....as in..... Fraser is so bad it gave me a "proner" watching him :)
@AsiaOil: Fraser is prone to poor play, but JFJ is proner.
ReplyDeleteWhich must make MacIntyre a prone-star.
ReplyDeleteLT: He's not prone. He just IS.
ReplyDeleteIt's his normal state.
I've said before, this guy failed to produce in a semi-pro league, and was barely scoring PPG in JUNIOR A.
I represent a better prospect than Macintyre did as the same age.
Mark Lee proning on in the background.
ReplyDeleteTheir netminding has been solid tonight, but if the Fly fail out of the playoffs this round because of it, can they be talked into Khabibulin?
ReplyDeleteHey, you guys brought up prone... naturally my mind turned to our $4M starting goaltender.
ReplyDeleteWe should really switch to reprensation by % of votes.
ReplyDeleteEd Broadbent must be pretty bloody happy tonight.
ReplyDeleteWish STambelini would step to mic and state at presser: "I made a mistake when I signed Fraser and Foster..... they are very fine young men but have limited skills at hockey" then truly in the Bizarro world of an alternate universe ST could also say: PS ""Khabby is not and never has been our MVP"
ReplyDeleteAgree Lander and CVDV should start in OKC
Sign someone to kill penalties and win faceoffs
Old Ed will be grinning from ear to ear I expect.
ReplyDeleteNice to see Quebec voters making a change.
Psyche: Sad to see the rest voting for more of the same.
ReplyDeleteThe real question is: How do these election results impact the Oilers new arena and the Jets returning to Winnipeg? ;)
ReplyDeletePsyche: Sad to see the rest voting for more of the same.
ReplyDeleteStop it. Seriously.
Qualteam should be third worst right?!.. the other two ranked worse would be his most regular linemates.. that is the only way I can figure out that ranking (misinterpretation?!)
ReplyDeleteFraser's future with the oil..
'Flush'..
Whatever.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you guys just let us separate next time around?
ReplyDeleteAh jesus. Conservative Majority.
FPB: Riiiiight. I'm shocked the ND message held sway in Quebec.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty clear we don't share the same kind of values, neither do we want the same things.
ReplyDeleteWhy exactly should we stay together? For old time's sake?
FPB: This is an Oilers blog, dude.
ReplyDeleteQuebec can't afford to leave.
ReplyDeleteYeah sorry. Just pissed.
ReplyDeleteYeah sorry. Just pissed.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realise the drinking age was 17 there. Yet another plus for la belle province. ;-)
mistemba - an election night dance
FPB:
ReplyDeleteWhen you are of legal age to vote, perhaps you can engage in a political debate on another website.
Liberals with a horrible relative corsi on the night, but even worse D partner the BQ with the worst zone finish since the 90s PCs.
ReplyDeletewhat a night.
Matt: I voted today... wtf.
ReplyDeleteFraser stinks. Long live Smac (forever)
ReplyDeleteI blame Southern Ontario aka The Ford Nation (tm)
"Why exactly should we stay together? For old time's sake?"
ReplyDeleteAlberta's contribution to the Quebec Nordiques new barn.. and however many additional tax dollars they can get outa the oilsands..
PS. I am not conservative supporter in the least, nor do I believe taxed oilsand profits are only for the benefit of Albertans..
anyways, enjoy your separatist deathbed..
FPV, why are Quebecers so hell bent on separating? Alberta signs the check on the front not the back and they always clear. You don't like our money or what? :p
ReplyDeleteAs per the post, Tambellini's recently mentioned the word 'playoffs' in reference to next season. If he stands pat again this summer without building up the roster with some vets, I guess we can keep our eye on the 2012 draft lottery. It sounds like there's some nice dmen coming up.
Jay: Because we clearly don't have the same priorities. Neither do we really need that money.
ReplyDeleteLiberals with a horrible relative corsi on the night, but even worse D partner the BQ with the worst zone finish since the 90s PCs.
ReplyDeletewhat a night.
And the NDP with a career season. Was it shooting percentage driven? We'll find out in 4 years.
Neither do we really need that money.
ReplyDeleteCan you forward that comment to Ottawa. Please. Pretty please? 'Cause I seriously could take advantage of $7 daycare if my province wasn't paying for yours.
;-)
Bar Qu: When they'l stop spending 25% of the budget on the military. Sure.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is : Altough you do give us a lot of money to pay for social services, it's money we probably wouldn't need if Ottawa wouldn't spend it on shit Quebecers could care less for.
ReplyDeleteAnyway. I think it's pretty clear you guys have your priorities, and so do we. So why are we still trying to mesh together while clearly the only thing that we have in common, is hockey?
FPB,
ReplyDeleteI no issue with Quebec if they want to leave. If you want to go, go, but don't expect to come back later if things don't exactly work out for you. And who knows things might be better for both places as long as we can remain in good relations.
Ed Broadbent must be pretty bloody happy tonight.
ReplyDeleteWith the NDP finally back to mattering for the first time since Ed left the scene, one big loser tonight that won't be discussed is the idea of having a female party leader.
Not sure when we'll see one of the big 3 have one again, which is pretty sad.
...Mark Cuban about to pass out in LA...
Is a terrible Kobe airball here too much to ask for?
ReplyDeleteI'll take that.
ReplyDeleteFPB:You are on an Oiler blog.Almost 70% of Albertans voted blue today.Your fighting a losing battle.Best to let it go.
ReplyDeleteElection is over,let us talk hockey.
Mr. Smitty: Haha. It makes it sound like Quebec's a teenager moving out from his parent's house. But yeah. I totally agree, no going back.
ReplyDeleteFunny stuff.
Goodnight people. Sorry for the political rant. Got fuzzy with it (If we don't fuzzy on that, on what do we?)
Canada's defense spending as a % of GDP is under 1.2%, or not even in the top 100 in the world.
ReplyDeletePerception meeting reality is always a painful process for some people.
I wonder when Colin Fraser had that moment of clarity.
Take a look at MC79's (mudcrutch's) stuff. The BQ was probably the "lamest separatist party" ever. 95% of the party's funds came from federal direct and indirect subsidies. That's a paper tiger if I ever saw one. I'm shocked the NDP did what they did, but the BQ should have died a long long time ago.
ReplyDeleteDevin: GDP does not consists your federal budget.
ReplyDeletePerception meeting reality is always a painful process for some people. Back to you.
Bar Qu: When they'l stop spending 25% of the budget on the military. Sure.
ReplyDeleteYou mean if it is only 8.7% then it is fine? (total expenditures 276B, total military spending 20B)
Fraser is a waste of space and should be another nail in the coffin of whomever is doing pro-scouting for this team.
God damn fpb, don't you have some place else to troll with your snotty condescending attitude. DSF as a child.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on your NDP choices in Quebec. I hear they will have their own bartender in caucus so they won't have to hire one.
HoiL: Like you do any better. Cmon. I pushed that guy because he did nothing to me. W/
ReplyDeleteHoil
ReplyDeleteWhats wrong with having a bartender in caucus? That was intended as an insult right? You are aware of some of the credentials of some MP's from Alberta? Many of them were not terribly accomplished pre election. Double standard?
Although I quite like Laurie Hawn as a member of Parliament. Very diligent
Eberle named Canadian Player of The Game this morning. I love seeing how he stacks up against Skinner and Tavares. So far he's more than holding his own. Love it.
ReplyDeleteWell, Doug MacLean just gave it to Jack Edwards.
ReplyDeleteSo, that was unexpected And great:)
Well, Doug MacLean just gave it to Jack Edwards.
ReplyDeleteSo, that was unexpected And great:)
Details?
(btw, I think we can take it easy on young fpv - he is merely displaying the follies of youth on a board that is not especially receptive to his point of view, which is not a crime any of us are not guilty of)
taniure - like a manicure, but a tan
TOJ:
ReplyDeletehttp://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/ndp-candidate-ruth-ellen-brosseau-wins-quebec-riding-042238054.html
Apparently her public service credentials consist of rescuing stray animals, an admirable pursuit to be sure.
We can count on the explosion in NDP MP numbers to reveal a few wack-jobs.
FPB,
ReplyDeleteFlowerly poetics and zenophobic, strawman, cultural arguements aside:
The economic realities of a sovereign Quebec are staggeringly harsh and basically logistically impossible. I've honestly been on air on Rex Murphy's radio show because I'm stunned by the lack of basic truths in the Bloq's tactics. It's a power play nothing more. What no one has yet mentioned (I have no clue why not) is if you vote to leave us, we'll also vote to leave you. No federal subsidies is one thing but pulling out all the federal jobs is quite another.
The strength of Canada is in it's differences. From sea to sea, we have everything the world needs now and likely in the future. The absolute absurd notion that the french are culturally oppressed is seriously laughable. Put down your local papers, your tainted text books filled with slanted truths and actually travel this country when you get the opportunity to do so. Every province is filled with amazing people that have no interest in imposing their will on any other. Regardless of political affiliation majority believe in equal medical care and social safety for all.
When I've had good fortune to hang out in Quebec and pick up the jaded papers, they are shockingly as false and ignorant as the sun in Edmonton. So much blatant bullshit.
You seem like a smart kid. I'm sure you'll get it. But realize you've been getting force fed a political agenda since you were a child. History has proven time and time again that hate, mistrust and falsely percieved hardship at the hands of others are easily palatable as fact. The truth is something entirely different. I and the overwhelming majority of Canadians bear no ill will and our proud of our french and english history. That union is a tribute to what makes Canada so unique.
Contrary to what you've been told, first language aside, you really are not very different from the rest of us at all.
Sorry for babbling again LT.
Maudite,
ReplyDeleteFantastic post. The beauty of Canada lies in its diversity.
FPV, do you not see the problem with statements like "we have different values then you, so we should split". If that was the case, Canada would be made up of 13 different countries.
Hoil
ReplyDeleteSome Alberta MP were reelected without the need for any real campaigning and have little credibility other than running under the Conservative banner. One of whom was a former Liberal and executive assistant to Ralph Goodale. He has never worked a day for a for profit company. Ideologues.....gotta love them!
I wonder if the election of the NDP in Quebec is the emergence of the youth vote which is not obsessed by the issue of soverignty like so many Quebcois from the 70's and 80's. If so that is a positive for Canada. Question then is has the Quebec electorate moved to the left or are they in play moving forward for any of the national parties.
FPV, do you not see the problem with statements like "we have different values then you, so we should split". If that was the case, Canada would be made up of 13 different countries.
ReplyDeleteIf that was the case Edmonton would have to be split into at least 10 different countries.
Canada is many cultures. Take this for example (from vancouver.ca):
The people of Vancouver also speak a multitude of languages. Based on the 2006 Census figures, 50.0% (286,710) of the city’s population identified English as their mother tongue, while 50.0% (286,175) identified a language other than English as their mother tongue. Other than English, the top ten other "mother tongue" languages are: Cantonese (63,695 speakers), Mandarin (22,565), Tagalog, 16,050) Punjabi (15,505), Vietnamese (10,440), French (9,290), Spanish (9,290), Korean (7,870) and Japanese (7,040).
We are a country of many cultures.
The greatest benefit from being a home to many cultures is the food.
Seriously.
Canada = huge mix of people = awesome food = awesome country
Having lots of natural resources helps too. :)
In the spirit of all this multiculturalism love, we cannot "hate" bad hockey players.
ReplyDeleteColin Fraser is what he is.
He's not effective by any measure, but we should not dislike him because of it.
Not wanting someone to play hockey for the team you cheer for should be miles away from "hating" anyone or anything.
I do not want Fraser, Foster, JFJ etc to play for the NHL team I cheer for (any pay for, a portion anyhow), but I don't hate them.
Kumbaya LT, kumbaya
JFJ over skates the puck, kumbaya
JFJ over skates the puck, kumbaya
Oh LT, kumbaya
Fraser loses another draw, kumbaya
Fraser loses another draw, kumbaya
Oh LT, kumbaya
Foster can't hit the net from 5 feet, kumbaya
Foster can't hit the net from 5 feet, kumbaya
Oh LT, kumbaya
Jones has the worst scoring chance differential, kumbaya
Jones has the worst scoring chance differential, kumbaya
Oh LT, kumbaya
Hmm... I think the meter might be a bit off on that last line, lol.
ReplyDeleteAll the focus on the National Anthems last night on TSN was a bit weird. Almost like it was an order from head office. Nor do I get the patriotism when it comes to this issue.
ReplyDeleteDityre: double rubber
Woodguy: This is Alberta. Your kind aren't welcome here.
ReplyDelete:)
Guys, could we please get back to more draft talk!!!
ReplyDeleteNot that I want to trade it, but who in theory would be the best possible player we could get for the #1 pick?
ReplyDeleteNot that I want to trade it, but who in theory would be the best possible player we could get for the #1 pick?
ReplyDeleteNugent Hopkins?
The point does not lie within ''Yeah we're a different ethnicity''.
ReplyDeleteCanada is multicultural, all across the country.
So why exactly do we always vote on the opposite side of you?
So why exactly do we always vote on the opposite side of you?
ReplyDeleteSteve Tambellini's management ineptitude and poor pro-scouting capabilities are at fault. But Katz put him up to it.
creter - Hillbilly name for holes on moon's surface
The draft?
ReplyDeleteI want the Oilers to be picking 1st in 2013. And, preferably 1st overall again in 2014.
*Steve Tambellini, lottery junkie*
Serious question:
ReplyDeleteWe all remember how Seguin rocketed up the draft lists last season, and there seem to be a few guys doing the same thing this season - coming up out of nowhere.
On the other hand, Hall was a potential number 1 pick for awhile before his actual draft.
What kind of players have emerged from nowhere in their draft years, and went on to have starring NHL careers?
Jay: Because we clearly don't have the same priorities. Neither do we really need that money.
ReplyDeleteComment of the night. $8.4B per year that Quebec "doesn't really need."
I bet we'd still hear a ton of fucking bitching if that particular teat dried up.
Why exactly should we stay together? For old time's sake?
I confess, as I've aged (and, oddly, moved to Ontario) I've become more of a Quebec separatist. They don't get the whole province - large chunks of Quebec want to stay in Canada. But if they want to be maitres chez nous of what will quickly become a shack that can't afford to keep the lights on, with young people emptying out into Canada, because they don't want to carry the horrendous public debt wracked up by generations of spendthrift governments, god love 'em. They may not be able to afford the social programs they so love but at least they'll be poor without les maudites anglais shoveling money at them.
It's pretty clear we don't share the same kind of values, neither do we want the same things.
I don't think this is true. I just think the Anglo part of the country behaves a hell of a lot more responsibly, as a whole. It's been forced to, in part, because it doesn't have access to a ton of wealth generated elsewhere. I'd love to have $7 daycare and super cheap university but that comes at a price - you guys haven't really had the bill come due yet for that, although it's coming.
What I mean is : Altough you do give us a lot of money to pay for social services, it's money we probably wouldn't need if Ottawa wouldn't spend it on shit Quebecers could care less for.
Canada spent about $20B on defence in fiscal 2010. Call 1/4 of that Quebec's money (obviously, it isn't because they don't foot the bills of Confederation) and you're talking about $5B. $5B < $8.4B, which doesn't take into account a) that Quebec is going to presumably want some sort of defence, b) the Quebec economy benefits significantly from the amount of money poured into defence spending in Quebec (ie. military bases, military contracting) and I've a hard time seeing that the cost of the military to Quebec is anywhere near the benefit they get in terms of the firehose of money aimed from Alberta.
Oh - and it's not us who are preventing you guys from leaving. Last I checked, your problem is that on your best day, 40% of francophones and a substantial majority of anglophones and allophones don't want to go. Convince them.
ReplyDeleteMc: That's not the only thing we wouldn't have to pay.
ReplyDeleteNo senate, no 2nd parliament etc.
And honestly, who's gonna clean up your shit when you're done riding petroleum, and you'l have to clean the ecological disaster, and the companies will have left?
Mc: Last time I checked, we would have won the vote, if the Federal didn't ship a boatload of immigrants, and payed shitloads of money to keep us in.
ReplyDeletehunter: Seguin went from #3 in the pre-season to #2 by the end of the year so I don't think he fits your descriptor.
ReplyDeleteAs for the question, there are a few examples of players in the last decade who went from out of nowhere to top 5 picks in their draft year who went on to be successful. Patrick Kane went from being a 2nd rounder to the top pick in 2007. Andrew Ladd went from a late round pick to the 4th selection in 2004. Dany Heatley was a mid-round prospect prior to shooting up to the 2nd overall selection.
And if you look later on in the first round you'll find numerous examples of players going from late round prospects to the 1st round in their draft year and becoming stars like Ryan Getzlaf, Brent Burns, Claude Giroux etc.
I love that Quebec separatism is basically a racist movement. They pretend it isn't, but it is. L'argent et le vote ethnique, correcte?
ReplyDeleteNo senate, no 2nd parliament etc.
These things are rounding errors in the grand scheme of things. I defy you to show me any sort of a credible economic study saying that Quebec would be anything but a much poorer country if it was outside of Canada.
And honestly, who's gonna clean up your shit when you're done riding petroleum, and you'l have to clean the ecological disaster, and the companies will have left?
I'm not counting on Quebec to do it or pay for it.
Quebec took advantage of inside information, and took a company to the brink of bankruptcy, to coerce the signing of the Churchill falls deal in the 60's.
ReplyDeleteThrough this legal agreement, deemed unethical by many, Quebec has grossly exploited the monetary value of Newfoundlands natural resources. They have refused to renegotiate the terms despite harsh economic realities of NL for many years.
Last year Quebec earned 1.4 billion from Churchill Falls, Newfoundland earned approximately 65 million.
Quebecs contract extends in 2016 for 25 extra years, and they still refuse to renegotiate the terms.
I'm assuming they lose all claim to these revenues by 2041. I also assume they would appreciate Alberta soon thereafter.
Danny: I assume petroleum will be gone by that date.
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if i'm wrong but wouldn't you actually sign your doom by not having social programs (Mainly cheaper education)?
Right now, because of your natural ressources, you can pay up for your hefty education fees, rendering you with the same number of high end employees you'd normally expect. But when that money dries up, at the end of Oil as we know, won't you not be able to afford for as many as you did, hence, lose more high end employees, and thus, lose a boatload of money in the process.
Or is there something i'm missing?
FPB said:
ReplyDeleteMc: It's not racist. I don't know what you don't get in:
FPB also said:
Mc: Last time I checked, we would have won the vote, if the Federal didn't ship a boatload of immigrants, and payed shitloads of money to keep us in.
Jacques Parizeau is that you?
Also,
Its not my web page, and I'm probably way out of line saying this but I can't hold back anymore.
FPB, you are making my favorite Oilers website unreadable.
Can you please separate from it?
We won't stop you.
fpb: where exactly is Quebecs economic backbone coming from to sustain cheap social services?
ReplyDeleteDanny: We pay more taxes?
ReplyDeleteWG: If you want we can talk about Colin Fraser.
ReplyDeleteHe sucks. End.
Don't think I diverge that lot from the Oil. (Well not outside of the usual things we hear).
Special day. Tried to stop, and was baited to continue. Probably won't talk about it in another thread if no one mentions it.
FPB: Please let me offer you some small amount of insight into why I think you run into trouble interacting with others.
ReplyDeleteYou have different views from a lot of people. People who tend to congregate here. That's fine.
The problem stems from your urge to try and sway people from positions which are, at least in this forum, inalienable. You're not going to walk into a room full of Albertans and convince them to change their political affiliations.
It's just not going to happen. And even if it were going to happen, it's not going to happen over the internet with bare assertions and acerbic tone.
You can argue anything and everything you want, that's your right. But perhaps you should consider picking your arguments a little better.
Just my 2 cents.
Jon K: Fair enough.
ReplyDeleteLet's just call it a day.
If no one touches the subject, neither will I. Balls in your hands.
Balls in your hands.
ReplyDeleteThat made me laugh a little.
Jon K: Typo. Realised just after I pressed the publish button.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe refs still fall for Burrows' fakes.
ReplyDeleteHaha... That's one hell of a typo. That just made my day. Hah.
ReplyDeleteCheaper education... this made me laugh a little. Cheaper. How does that happen? Is the whole cost not paid somewhere? What is the effect of unlimited subsidy or credit on that market's prices? ....Kind of like any plan to provide affordable housing. Self-defeating.
ReplyDeleteSorry I know there is a truce. I mean the above in an economic sense, not a political one. This misconcept of cheaper seems to be fundamental and prevalent while so very wrong. How?
And then I see the green men on TV and I totally understand how.
Spoiler: If you tax people proportionally, richer people get taxed more, and usually a lot of the taxes come from people who are so rich it doesn't make a damn difference. (Or so it shouldn't impeach them to have a wealthy life and go on their merry way).
ReplyDeleteSo technically on that side it's not cheaper, but it's way cheaper for your common joe. You will pay a lesser percentage, then if you higher priced universities, that unless your income is 300 000+ per year.
That, and by pooling people's money into one organisation, you get a way more powerful bargaining argument. Hence, as a whole you get things cheaper than you would individually.
What a refreshing world view. It's a shame rich people don't feel that way and often rub elbows with people in positions to decide who pays what.
ReplyDelete:)
Fuck, my super sarcastic response seems to have disappeared. Short form:
ReplyDelete1. Quebec is not that different from Canada in terms of political history. You would have to be a particularly ignorant teenager to not note that Quebec is the only province to have sent a majority of MPs to Ottawa from four different parties since 1980. No other province in Canada can say that. Up until this year, Quebec voted for the French guy. Separatism is about race, not left wing politics.
2. Brag about your social services all you want. Your province has accumulated a shitload of debt to pay for it. While there's a dispute about the size of Quebec's fiscal benefit from Canada, even Belanger-Campeau (ask someone who knows their history if you don't) agreed it existed. They put it at $2.9B in 1992. The Fraser Institute put it at $5B or so. Today, it's probably north of $10B. In a province running big deficits.
3. Quebec, particularly a separate Quebec carrying its share of the federal debt, doesn't really have room for more debt. You guys lead Canada by a mile.
4. Separatism is a racist Boomer dream. See point 1 - this isn't about left or right. Quebec, up until this year, has always voted French. They've stolen from your generation in the form of benefits that economics will prevent you from ever having. They'd love it if you'd make their dream of a white French state a reality and, once that's done, if you'd pay ever more for ever less, so that they can be taken care of.
Mc: You can't read can't you? Or is this really a challenge? If it's so racist as you speak of, you ignorant fool, how come counties with significant foreign origin, also voted for the BQ and NPD?
ReplyDeleteThey're all racist against themselves?
The BQ vote is not entirely aligned with the separatist vote. And, while I know this will be a shock to you: the NDP is not a separatist party. It's a left wing party with prairie roots.
TRUE FACT.
FPB,
ReplyDeleteYou have no concept of wealth creation.
You have all conviction of a teenager who has started to see the world around him and are convinced you are correct.
You will be embarrassed to read your under informed rants in probably a mere 5 years.
You are a walking example of the old adage:
"If you're not left wing by the time you're 20 you have no heart. If you are still left wing by the time you are 30 you have no brain"
I think there should be an amendment to that saying "...no brain, or you have worked in the public sector your whole life"
Mc: No really?
ReplyDeleteWell bugger me.
I simply stated that they voted, for both. Not that it had something to do with being separatists.
WG: Well I could pursue and say, you have all the convictions of an old man who most likely will not believe in anything else, than what has worked for him.
ReplyDeleteWe don't live in exactly the same social conditions.
By social conditions, I mean general opinion around us.
ReplyDeletewill someone tell this idiots on CBC(mainly Hughson and Healy)that it is a train whistle and it only blows when TooToo is on.Even DeBrusk figured it out.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteWe don't live in exactly the same social conditions.
Not sure what you mean by that comment.
WG: Above.
ReplyDeleteDanny: You usually like long timeframes so that one shouldn't bother you;)
ReplyDeleteWell if it had nothing to do with seoaratism, I'm not sure how that counter my point that Quebec separatism is a racist and bigoted movement. Sounds like one has nothing to do with he other.
ReplyDeleteRe: social conditions
ReplyDeleteLike MC said earlier, Quebec is the only province to have sent a majority of MPs to Ottawa from four different parties since 1980.
I have spent a lot of time in Quebec for the last 10 years (my 2 largest vendors are in Quebec)
There is far more similarities than differences.
The one main difference I have noticed is an expectation of government involvement in most aspects of like in Quebec. Whatever the issue, some level of "help" from the government is expected.
Growing up in Eastern BC and Alberta, the culture is to not trust government to do much and prefer as little government involvement in your life and business as possible.
That dovetails well with Quebecers sending 4 different majorities in 30 years, changing parties to see if they can get what they want.
It also dovetails well into Alberta always voting (federally and provincially) for the party that promises the least amount of government interference in our lives and business. The vote doesn't change because the party that promises the least government doesn't change.
MC: I've said. Counties with great immigrant presence have:
ReplyDeleteSupported mainly the bloc, and this year, NPD, followed by the bloc.
Should I explain this again?
That should read "aspects of LIFE, not LIKE"
ReplyDeleteWG: Well, let's just agree to disagree, and just like the title, most likely you go your way (and i'l go mine).
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone mind if I hijack this thread and discuss hockey? As poor as Colin Fraser looked to the naked eye, his numbers were surprisingly unbad in some respects (e.g. +/-). It makes me wonder if the truly shockingly awful Daniel Carcillo (when on ice only there are only 2 possible outcomes, bad penalty taken or his man scores) has similarly unterrible numbers. It seems as though many of the metrics used will highlight when players are doing well, but are less good at identifying some aspects of the game that jump out during a seen him bad observation. Discussion?
ReplyDelete"Coutless", what is it called in French when something is free?
Well that explains why the direct cost of education to the average Joe student has climbed in price at a rate higher than virtually any other sector of the economy and well beyond the average inflation rate.
ReplyDeleteAnd you evidently have no idea what happens when you over-tax the rich or corporations. Both are highly mobile and their money knows no allegiance. It is nothing for them to move head office or set up off-shore account or whatever they need to do to preserve their money. That's former tax revenue that's now forever gone bye bye. Now what does your government do? Tax the remaining tax base even more to maintain the same level of spending? And then even more people and companies leave.. and so on and so on. What you are describing is a vicious circle jerk without happy ending.
Sorry Woodguy. Have to stick up for the youngin and say your rant about being stupid if you're not a conservative is the classic arguement from the "Fuck you got mine" attitude of white suburbia.
ReplyDeleteVoting for a party that was found in contempt of parliament, and also found guilty of a election fraud and then rewarded with a majority isn't the result of intelligent, informed voters. Not by a country mile.
Or are you going to tell me that it was the great informed intelligence of Albertan's who were polled as giving 34% support to the Wild Rose Party when all it had was a vague 2 page party platform.
ReplyDeleteSpoiler: Nothing empeaches them to evase, even if they're taxed less. Ancient Prime Minister Paul Martin has his company's headquartes officially based in south america for christ sake's. Records of the US economy actually shows it's stronger when they taxed the companies more.
ReplyDeleteTax them on what you can. Resources for example. Get what you can when you hold the big end of the bat.
SB: And the only modern canadian party to refute the evidence of global warming.
ReplyDeleteBut I should watch what I say because the conservatives first order of the day will be to introduce and foster unwarranted monitoring of internet discussion under their "Tough on Crime" act.
ReplyDeleteWould hate to run afoul of dear leader.
I'm with you kiddo. I give you a hard time but these guys are suckering you into saying some silly stuff but you got a good head. Just stay informed and don't give up like most everyone else who pays a mortgage, taxes and forgets their heart.
ReplyDeleteAnd when the RCMP stop by your house to have a chat about your politics you can PM me and I'll sponsor you into the club.
Kesler holds a stick and Canucks get a pplay.
ReplyDeleteWas it the great "informed intelligence" of Liberals that kept Chretien in power when he and his inner circle should have been wearing orange coveralls?
ReplyDeleteSB: Haha. Sure will do. I'l keep a bag of carrots around for backup.
ReplyDeleteHockeyguy: They seem to be rather rare, those governments you couldn't legally imprison.
ReplyDeleteSpoiler: Nothing empeaches them to evase, even if they're taxed less. Ancient Prime Minister Paul Martin has his company's headquartes officially based in south america for christ sake's. Records of the US economy actually shows it's stronger when they taxed the companies more.
ReplyDeleteTax them on what you can. Resources for example. Get what you can when you hold the big end of the bat.
Globalization has put an end to that sort of thing. You can't tax corporations at 30-50% because they'll leave in droves and you'll have huge unemployment.
The spirit of free trade also prevents tariffs and when you're dealing with a powerhouse like China. Little Canada can't do a whole lot.
Western nations are in a race to the bottom. The good times are never coming back so live accordingly.
Was it the great "informed intelligence" of Liberals that kept Chretien in power when he and his inner circle should have been wearing orange coveralls?
ReplyDeleteThis is step 2 in the conservative handbook. "But but those dirty liberals."
Sure scream adscam and put them in prison. I won't disagree, but don't stick your head in the sand because you voted for a turd.
What an awful call to lose the game on.
ReplyDeleteI dont ever want to hear about a officiating conspiracy against Vancouver again.
ReplyDeleteTerrible, terrible call in ot of a playoff game.
Chinzy hooking call I'm guessing? (I can't watch the Canucks)
ReplyDeleteThat's were we disagree,I don't think I voted for a turd,but I think a couple got flushed yesterday.
ReplyDeleteWell that's the problem. You voted for a leader and party that was found in contempt of our democracy. But I guess that sort of thing is above feeble minded 30 somethings that don't for conservatives as Woodguy would imply.
ReplyDeleteSmarmy,
ReplyDeleteAs someone who grew up dirt poor and was flat fucking broke 12 years ago I have two words for your half baked premise of white bread bullshit.
Fuck you, you have no idea what I've been through so stick your white bread bullshit up your ass where you should have kept it.
Asshole.
Got your goat didn't I you bootstrappin wanna be?
ReplyDeleteYou make post unsubstantiated drivel you get wrecked. Sorry it has to be that way.
Did you guys know that there was an election yesterday?
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, it's always struck me as kind of wierd that Alberta is basically this pocket of hardcore conservatism in the middle of what has, for all intents and purposes, been a center or left-of-center nation for much of its history.
Plus as a guy who was down and out you'd think you'd have more sympathy for those in your shoes today and would want to maintain the values and programs people have to pull themselves up.
ReplyDeleteBut nope just a bunch of "Fuck you got mine" and personal attacks.
Guess that's what having a brain gets you.
I think the big sticker, is being right of ideology. I don't exactly like the shadyness that he reprensents over fundamental rights we've acquired (Abortion, Homosexuals' rights etc.)
ReplyDeleteThat and taking people for idiots. It's blatant in his campaign ads. That and making us look like idiots on the international scene, while having a fuckall ecological plan.
This entire thread is hilarious.
ReplyDeleteAs a largely apathetic, apolitical, amoral Gen-Yer who considered volunteering for the NDP campaign strictly for the quality of the womens (no typo), I always get a good laugh when I stumble upon these highly divisive and polarizing conversations concerning the mundanities of Canadian politics.
Does everyone realize and appreciate that the separation between the three parties is growing vanishingly small?
Over the past 15 years, the NDP have been progressively moving towards the center -- they now support (finally) balancing the budget, and their policy on corporate taxation recognizes the role that business plays in creating jobs and fostering economic growth.
Similarly, the "new" Conservative party is considerably more centrist than its predecessor. It supports universal health care (indexed at 6% a year, egads), is willing to spend into deficit territory, and has successfully (and mostly thanks to Harper) silenced the socially conservative elements of the party that have, up until now, scared off moderate voters in other parts of the country. It is, by these standards, much more progressive than Conservative parties elsewhere. I expect (and hope) that they govern similarly to the Liberals in their 90s heyday (specifically w.r.t debt reduction and responsible spending).
I am an Ontarian who voted Liberal, but read the platforms of all the major parties and, at various times throughout the election, gave serious consideration to voting Conservative and also NDP.
One of the best things about this country is how much, politically, we share in common. The difference between Easterners and Westerners is a sham that's purported mostly by a) people who don't visit other parts of the country, b) politicians who benefit from inter-regional hostility, and c) the media, who aside from Rex Murphy and sometimes Rick Mercer, are not worth watching or reading.
So, uh, take her easy, boys. If the biggest thing we disagree about is the minutiae of purchasing new jets, or differences of 2% in corporate taxation, well shit, that's small potatoes.
Now let's get back to talking about real things. Like how the only decent long-term deal this team has signed in the last 5 years has been an ELC. Friends, that is barf-ilicious.
With this team -- and I'll borrow from Freddy Mercury (RIP) here -- it's a kinda magic.
Carry on.
and there you are,assuming our ideology is "far" right.Sorry you have been brainwashed into thinking Harper is the bogeyman.And just because we don't expect a handout all the time dosen't mean we lack compassion.We would just rather help out a friend or neighbor instead of someone who thinks it is his right to have the government babysit him.
ReplyDeleteDizzy you are partially correct.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of left and right wing political spectrums things get very murky.
NDP did platform on balanced budgets and the Conservatives wracked up giant deficits and have implied the books probably won't be budgeted until 2015.
While western societies age and become more conservative you're seeing that reflected in political parties. That said, the Liberals did have a more leftist platform as they were appealing to the NDP base. The Conservatives went for a more centrist platform but there are plenty of old reformers and it seems pretty likely they're going to govern from a fairly far right with their majority.
hockeyguy I have no idea what you're on about. You've muddled this into a black and white arguement as if I would care about the liberal party or that I'm assuming that Harper is going to scary things when all I did is state what his government already did which was in violation of the laws of the land.
ReplyDeleteThe fact you don't care about these things is on you.
the last comment was aimed at your new lapdog.
ReplyDeleteSorry to interupt-TSN is showing espn 30 for 30 right now-the Gretzky trade.If anyone is interested.
ReplyDelete@smarmy...your are the one that turned it personal
ReplyDeleteHG: Well they do have a shit ecological plan like most of the right wing parties. + Harper's been pretty open about his religious views.
ReplyDeleteAnyways. We'll see on that.
@fbv..I have never heard him mention religion in a speech or seen mention of it in the media.I don't care what his religous beliefs are,they don't concern me.I am fairly certain he won't knock on my door Sunday morning and make me go with him.
ReplyDeleteI gave up posting here and if this continues, I'll quit reading. I doubt I'm alone in finding this shallow.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, even when it comes to hockey, the good posters seem to be thoroughly overwhelmed by the naive, firebrand fpvs on the one hand and the DSF's on the other.
FPB I just wrote a long response that blogger deleted so I won't bother to rewrite the whole thing.
ReplyDeleteBut to summarize, you come across as a snot nosed brat who think you know a lot, and your idealism is irritating if not stupid.
Your condescension towards Harper's religion also proves your naivete towards the possiblity Harper may be a good person, and belittles you as someone who seems to think of yourself as some sort of dogooder. How can you on the one hand want to help the poor, but on the other hand look down on someone for their religious beliefs? Are you so omniscient and perfect that you know 100% all things seen and unseen?
Have you ever been to Alberta? Are you aware of the hatred for the liberals (and anything at all left of liberal) that stems from the National Energy Program that sucked 60 billion out of the local economy in the 80's and caused many of us or our parents lose their jobs and their houses? Have you ever seen your best friend have to move because his dad lost his job? Or your neighbour get his middle class house foreclosed on? Trudea was so hated here I am surprised he came by even to campaign.
You are so naive and idealistic it is painful to read your comments. Please print this and read it in five years. I promise you will be embarassed.
Oilersfan: Did I ever said you had to vote for the liberals or do anything related to them? Of course not.
ReplyDeleteAs for Harper's religion.
There's two things i'm saying:
A: Leaders of importance, should keep these kinds of things with them.
B: He has been openly against or for restricting abortion rights. Hence, that might have a connection with what's at home.
You just transform everything I say to make me look like what you want me to look. Seriously.
There is a time and a place for anything; this forum fufills neither of those requirements.
ReplyDeleteI blame Katz.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAgree with WG that the only party this time to vote for was Conservative. Even a cursory look at the platforms would have revealed this to anyone not blinded by the constant stream of Harper-demonizing hatred that has been coming from various groups of losers for the past few years.
ReplyDeleteBack to those full spandex bodysuit loving Cannots fans, Loooo (the "ser" is silent), and his team. Hoping Trotz's boys smack them around next game.
Smarmy,
ReplyDeleteYour leaps of logic are amazing.
You said:
Just stay informed and don't give up like most everyone else who pays a mortgage, taxes and forgets their heart.
So because my politics lean right, I'm heartless.
Care to compare volunteer charity hours or money donated?
You have no idea what I do in these regards, yet you call me out as heartless.
Plus as a guy who was down and out you'd think you'd have more sympathy for those in your shoes today and would want to maintain the values and programs people have to pull themselves up.
Where exactly do I have no sympathy? Why exactly did I explicitly deride these programs?
You are painting me with a very wide brush based on a couple of statements.
Its something that people of your ilk tend to do. You have no idea what you are talking about and are more prejudiced than most of the people who voted for Wild Rose.
If someone votes conservative they are immediately tarred with this ludicrous brush of hate.
You just tarred the 40% of Canadian who voted conservative with you idiocy.
Well done bigot.
But nope just a bunch of "Fuck you got mine" and personal attacks.
Where exactly are these personal attacks? When I called FPB young?
Kris, you're obviously in the wrong place to talk hockey. This is clearly a Quebec curriculum high school social sciences blog. As for your talk of the Oilers, even if hockey were to be brought up here, the blog and audience clearly have their allegiance with the Montreal Canadiens.
ReplyDeleteSmarmy, it wasn't neccessary to introduce ad hominem to an already tedious thread and drag it down to a whole new low.
FPB, it amazes me how you can continually bring up the topics you do here, and then proceed to hammer away at them ad naseum, without drawing more ire. Simply put, things are not black and white. I sincerely hope one day soon you will realize this, and that it won't take a metaphorical kick in the breeches for it to happen.
Not only are you raising contentious issues, you seem to have no desire for actual discussion, instead all you seem to want to do is convert everyone else to your world view. Please stop it.
I would call you condescending but you come off way too naive for that. Instead you're casting yourself as a sheltered immature 'know-it-all'. You seem to be a bright kid, so continuine in this vein will only do you a disservice. Also one day you may come across people who will be only too happy to knock you down a peg. Believe it or not, people here have been treating you with kid gloves; I can only guess it is because of your age and naivette.
I wish I wrote as well as uni.
ReplyDeleteLT, sorry for being a contributing factor in bringing down this thread.
I just stick to Oiler hockey talk from now on.
When the subject being discussed is the Montreal Canadiens, how the "ethnic" vote in Quebec, or how much I hate the poor, I'll stay away.
There's two things i'm saying:
ReplyDeleteA: Leaders of importance, should keep these kinds of things with them.
Harper has been notoriously silent about his religion. Stories have been written about how silent he is about it. They don't contain any quotes from him because he's so silent about it.
Leaders of importance should keep these things to themselves? He does and you're still upset. Which suggests that your problem is more that he has the beliefs. Which is awfully, uh, bigoted.
B: He has been openly against or for restricting abortion rights. Hence, that might have a connection with what's at home.
Ah yes. Harper's position on abortion.
But I've been very clear in this campaign - I don't believe the party should have a position on abortion.
I don't believe an Alliance government should sponsor legislation on abortion or a referendum on abortion.
(That quote has to be from almost ten years ago - this is a consistent position.)
My own views on abortion, I'm not on either pole of that and neither of the interest groups on either end of this issue would probably be comfortable with my views.
That, by the way, is probably consistent with the views of 80% of the country. Most importantly, he's said his government won't legislate on the issue.
I'm off track now but this stuff gets me excited. If people want to know why they've had no luck getting rid of Harper, it's because they paint him as this unbelievable caricature of something that the people as a whole don't recognize as him. The reason the tarring of Iggy was so effective was because it was plausible. Many of the real scaremongering criticisms of Harper aren't.
I'm reading this Dizzy guy and I'm impressed that he choose his party of seeming interest based on the tang but then he goes and uses a terrible Queen song to quote from.
ReplyDeleteTerrible;)