Wednesday, April 13, 2011

Sam Gagner 10-11: Highway 61 Revisited

Sam Gagner isn't exactly the "hardest screw that ever walked a turn at Shawshank." He's not a speed demon with a monster shot, he's not tough in the corners. However, his emergence as a useful center who can perform against tough opposition would solve a lot of problems for the Edmonton Oilers.

I think it's pretty clear that Sam Gagner is progressing nicely as an NHL hockey player and that he's going to be able to post solid seasons. I think it's also clear that he's progressing in the defensive aspects of the game, and that he's going to have a solid career.

At the beginning of the year I wrote "we're not waiting on Sam Gagner to emerge so much as waiting for the Oilers to supply Gagner with hockey players. I don't have an actual count of "butter passes flubbed" but it is up there."

This season, Gagner played with Magnus Pääjärvi and Linus Omark (21.04%); Jordan Eberle and Taylor Hall (16.6% of the time) and Ales Hemsky and Dustin Penner (13.51%) at even strength. They're mostly just kids, but the offensive ability of those six wingers should be considered a strong step up in quality. If he can find some chemistry with two of the wingers noted above, Gagner should deliver the first 50 point season of his career.

SAM GAGNER 10-11

  1. 5x5 points per 60: 1.91 (2nd among regular forwards)
  2. 5x4 points per 60: 2.51 (9th among regular forwards)
  3. Qual Comp: 7th toughest among regular forwards
  4. Qual Team: 4th best teammates among regular forwards
  5. Corsi Rel: 7.0 (4th best among regular forwards)
  6. Zone Start: 50.9% (6th easiest among regular forwards)
  7. Zone Finish: 53.4% (best among regular forwards)
  8. Shots on goal/percentage: 138/10.9% (8th among F's>100 shots)
  9. Boxcars: 68gp, 15-27-42 
  10. Plus Minus: -17 on a team that was -52. 

  1. What do these numbers tell us? Gagner remains one of the Oilers best offensive options and is now the top offensive center on the club. Although he has miles to go before he can boast Horcoff's range of skills, offensively Gagner is delivering a nice number (especially at even strength). He faced tougher opposition and faced that opponent with (mostly) rookie wingers so this season should be viewed as a nice step forward.
  2. How could these numbers be better? If Gagner could deliver these numbers against tougher opposition then he'll be the player we're hoping he'll become. It isn't a huge step, and in fact I'm openly suspicious of this seasons qual comp numbers (not Gabe's system of measurement, but rather Renney's rolling style). If Gagner is facing tough opposition next season and delivering the 2nd best 5x5/60 number he'll be in the range where players start to help teams win.
  3. His Corsi has improved. Not really, he was second to Penner a year ago overall and is once again among the best on the club. Gagner's a guy who Corsi likes. If you believe in the metric, then it follows that you're probably going to appreciate the player.
  4. You're not going to mention that ghastly -17? He was -18 from Boxing day onward, but that's what happens when you send anyone out there with high event rookie wingers (he was stapled to the 2 Swedes from then on). I also believe that the Gagner-MP-Omark line played in some bad puck luck but those things usually even out over time. I don't think Gagner was the culprit for all of those minus numbers beyond being 21 and still learning himself.
  5. You really think he's on track? Absolutely. Sam Gagner isn't a perfect player and I don't know if he'll ever be that tremendous 2-way C who can impact a game in all kinds of ways but there's at least a line in the water in every discipline and he's making progress.
  6. He's a lottery pick! You call this delivering? Quite right. He's no Boyd Devereaux. Look, I know we've been watching him play for 4 long, difficult years and he's not as dynamic as Hall or Hemsky but Gagner's job is a big one and he's making progress.
  7. How come he can't crack 50 points? He's playing with kids. If you put Gagner on a line with Jarome Iginla and Dustin Penner for a season then good things will happen. As it was, he was the most experienced (at 21) player on his line for pretty much the entire season. Children teaching children. I'm actually surprised at how often that Gagner with the Swedish kids line had the puck.
  8. He didn't help the powerplay. Hemsky didn't help the powerplay either and Hemsky is a much better player. Something's wrong the with Oiler powerplay and I think it's the coaching. If you have all of Hemsky, Gagner, Hall, Eberle, Gilbert and Omark to use on your 1PP and can't get anything going then it's on the coaching staff.
  9. He's horrible in the dot. This is something we really need to talk about and get to the bottom of before summer's end. We know from the lines listed above that Gagner played an enormous amount of time with rookie wingers. Right? Gagner's 43.8 isn't any screaming hell but Horcoff was 48.3 with his rookies and that's subpar too. Too many greenhorns everywhere means many of the subtle disciplines are compromised.
  10. The Oilers haven't made the playoffs since he arrived. Well I think we can blame a few people before going after the kid who has scored more than 40 points each of his first four NHL seasons. Gagner hasn't progressed like a typical lottery pick and some of that may be on his lack of development physically. However, I don't think you can blame Sam Gagner for the Edmonton Oilers performance since 2007 fall.
  11. Everybody's fault but Sam's!!! Are you reading this? Hey, he's not good enough to put this bunch of kids on his back and carry them to the playoffs. There you go, there's your indictment. Sam Gagner is not the problem.
  12. What IS the problem? Too many kids on the roster learning on the job. Up front, the Oilers gave or were forced to give over 1100 minutes to Cogliano, MP, Eberle, Gagner and Hall. The only veteran forwards over 1100 minutes were Dustin Penner and Ryan Jones. Calgary's 6 forwards over 1100 minutes were Iginla, Tanguay, Bourque, Jokinen, Glencross and Morrison. Not overly impressive either, but certainly more experienced. The Oilers knew they'd be playing more kids this year, but the injuries forced them to go very deep and playing four guys 21 and under that much adds up to poor overall peformance. The Oilers devoted 5,065 minutes up front to rookies. Calgary? 1171. And that doesn't include kids like Gagner.
  13. How Important is Gagner to this team? He could be very important but there's a chance he's gone too. The Oilers are in a somewhat unique situation in that Hall or Eberle or MP might move over to center or the club could hire RNH this summer at the draft. So Gagner's slot is probably as the #1-2C this coming season but he could also be competing with Hall, Horcoff and Cogliano for quality linemates. It's a good thing overall, and maybe he ends up on the wing, too. However, his status is in flux this summer.
  14. How are the comps coming?  At 21 years old, Vincent Damphousse was 80gp, 26-42-66 (.825) -8 on a team that was -37; Doug Gilmour was 78gp, 21-36-57 (.731) +3 on a team that was +20; Sam Gagner was 68gp, 15-27-42 (.618) -17 on a team that was -52. Damphousse was in on 25% of his team's offense; Gilmour was in on 19% of his team's offense and Gagner was in on 22% of his team's offense.
  15. So you haven't lost any confidence in Sam Gagner? None. He's on his third coach and the third one saw fit to play him more than any other center at even strength and powerplay. Gagner is ranked 41st (tied with Plekanec and Helm) among NHL centers in the 5x5/60 category and that seems to be on track based on quality of opposition, the youth of his linemates and the general shittiness of the team.
By The Numbers
•07-08 5x5 per 60m: 1.96
•08-09 5x5 per 60m: 1.69
•09-10 5x5 per 60m: 1.56
•10-11 5x5 per 60m: 1.91


By The Numbers
•07-08 5x4 per 60m: 3.88
•08-09 5x4 per 60m: 3.12
•09-10 5x4 per 60m: 5.74
•10-11 5x4 per 60m: 2.51

Prediction for 2010-11: 80gp, 16-37-53 (.663)
Actual: 68gp, 15-27-42 (.618)
Delivered a solid year playing with rookies

142 comments:

  1. Like his smarts and although people complain about Gagner getting knocked down and not winning battles along the boards, I found he got better at this as the year progressed. He was able to out smart the opponent more often than not.

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  2. Lowetide, what players would you rate from other clubs that are comparable to Gagner?

    Gagner seems to get knocked down a lot probably due to his small stature and lack of physicality. Not hard on the puck, either.

    With rebuilding and the need for balance on the forward lines, is there really a place for him next season?

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  3. One issue I'm still uncertain about is how likely is Gagner to improve his faceoff percentage? Is this the sort of thing that some hard work can fix or is it a skill that should have manifested itself by now? Has there been any work done on this?

    I ask because if it is possible to improve his FO%, this would go some distance to solving the defensive problems he's had. If there's little hope for a change, then I think it's time to start thinking about Gagner on the wing.

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  4. I can't imagine an Oilers roster that would exclude Gagner in 11-12. Unless they trade him of course.

    But based on merit? I don't know how many players I'd put ahead of Gagner for 11-12 but it's not a lot of them.

    As for current comparables on NHL rosters, he reminds me a lot of Jordan Eberle.

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  5. Lowetide, isn't Gagner a non-lottery pick? He was taken sixth. Unless you're counting all fifteen picks "in the lottery" as lottery picks, he isn't one.

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  6. I thought we were in the lottery in 2007? No?

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  7. LT, For some reason, I thought the year Gagner was selected was the one where the Oilers won the last game of the season and fell out of lottery contention. Then Chicago moved from 5th to 1st.

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  8. Ah, maybe you're right. I thought they were in the lottery.

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  9. I agree with your assessment on Gagner. He's had a lot of pressure and has performed well under less-than-ideal circumstances. My hope is that he has not "learned to lose". That would be disappointing.

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  10. Well he is a lottery pick in that all the non-playoff teams are in the lottery.

    But he wasn't top five which some people consider the lottery picks.

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  11. Well, technically, everyone 17th to 30th in the league is in the lottery, making picks 1 through 14 a lottery pick. But I believe the colloquial use of 'lottery pick' is a top 5 pick, because only the bottom 5 teams have a chance to receive first overall. Under that definition, Gagner was NOT a lottery pick.

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  12. Comps:

    .825
    .731
    .618

    Think you may need some new comps LT...unless you think Gagner has a 90+ point season up his sleeve for next season.

    You don't really believe that, do you?

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  13. Unfortunately for Gagner, I think he's the poster child for what's been wrong with the Oilers' player development model until this season. Throw them in the deep end and expect them to swim the butterfly when they're still sorting out the front crawl. Fortunately, I think his Dad being an ex-pro has stopped this being a complete disaster.

    I still hold out hope he can be a solid number two center for us. It seems clear that he lacks the upside of a St. Louis, Datsyuk or Gilmour. To my eyes, he projects more as a Tim Connolly or Stephen Weiss. If he hits somewhere in the middle of those comps (say Saku Koivu), the wait will be worth it.

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  14. Nice post, LT. It's like the countdown to Christmas when this series starts. Those Damphousse & Gilmour comparables you bring up every time you talk about Gags give me chills. The good kind :)

    Haven't posted this early on in a thread, so pardon me as I drop a lil' more self-promotion. For those interested, I'm throwing up cartoons of each Oiler on my blog as LT posts his Reasonable Expectations series.

    First post (w/ hi-res scans) is here. And rough work/previews will pop up on my twitter (lgwgreen). Cheers!

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  15. DSF: You know all about that whole "era" thing, right? You know, where some teams score more goals in one era than another?

    In Doug Gilmour's 21 year old season, the "average" NHL team scored 311 goals. In Gagner's 21 year old season, the "average" NHL team scored 229.

    So that's a bit of context there.

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  16. Downright: I enjoyed both of those. The Eberle one makes me miss by childhood. Loved MAD and SICK magazines.

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  17. I only recently learned that cracked.com was a descendent of Cracked Magazine, a Mad clone of my childhood (not sure how far it dates back).

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  18. How do those comps look in the context of league scoring? It seems like scoring has been sinking in the league since the lockout, and I think we're back down to dead puck era levels.

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  19. Thanks LT! Means a lot coming from you.

    MAD and its contributors (Jaffee, Aragones, Don Martin et al) were huge influences on my own doodlings as a youth. Apparently there's an animated series on Cartoon Network in the US now, but (without seeing it) I can't imagine it comparing to nosing through an issue in the backseat on a long road trip.

    Steve:
    I remember Cracked. And always being bummed when I had to buy it instead of MAD for whatever reason. The site launched in '07 IIRC, as I worked at a comic shop & they attempted re-releasing the mag as well. Print version didn't pan out, but the site seems to be enjoying some success.

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  20. I think Gagner's a classic example of too much to soon. If he goes back to junior for 07-08, plays in the World Juniors, maybe gets sent back twice a la Eberle and debuts last season, making this his second year, he's being talked about with the same excitement as Eberle and Hall. I think it would be crazy to trade Gagner at this point.

    A friend of mine and I were discussing Gagner last year in regards to Taylor vs Tyler. He still thought Gagner would develop into an 80 point #1 guy and I was using Patrick Sharp as a likelier comparable. You'd have to think Philly has some regret over giving up on Sharp. I know it's not a perfect comparison because Sharp was the 95th pick and not the 6th pick.

    In hindsight, I'd wonder if without Gagner's stellar rookie year in 07-08 if Stoll still gets dealt?

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  21. As LT said, the era effects are substantial between his favourite comps. Here are their adjusted stats for the 21yo season from hockey reference:

    Damphousse 80 GP 56 pts = 0.7 PPG
    Gilmour 78 GP 46 pts = 0.59 PPG
    Gagner 68 GP 46 pts = 0.68 PPG

    DSF, your act is getting very tired after all these years. I think tamblowe is as dumb as the next guy, but I seriously hope these kids take off next year just so you can STFU. Skepticism is fine. Pessimism is acceptable. You're closer to bullying at this point, which is the lowest order of human attitude and behaviour, IMO.

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  22. Compare and Contrast 2 players:

    *Min 40 games played
    *Min 2min/60 5v4 TOI

    RelCorsi

    A- +9.6 4/12 (4th best)
    B- +7.0 4/13 (4th best)

    RelCor QualComp

    A- 7/12 (7th toughest)
    B- 7/13 (7th toughest)

    RelCorQualTeam

    A 1/12 (Best Team mates)
    B 4/13 (4th best)

    Pts/60 5v5

    A - 2.18 2/12
    B - 1.91 2/13

    Pts/60 5v4

    A - 4.26 6/6 Forwards
    B - 2.51 6/6 Forwards

    Player A is 4 months older than Player B

    Player A was drafted 2 spots behind player B

    Player A will probably finish 2nd in voting for a major NHL award.

    Player B is considered a failure by a lot of his fan base.

    A = Couture
    B= Gagner

    You can argue that Gagner's numbers are inflated by being the best or 2nd best of a bad lot, but hockey is a team game too.

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  23. I should have mentioned that Player A's RFA rights are held by his team until he's 28.

    Player B is a UFA when he's 25.

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  24. I hope Gagner is here long term...Trading him now puts us closer to florida than detroit

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  25. Off topic, but anyone watching the Washington-Rangers game? Tied at 1 with 1:20 left. I smell OT. This game could easily be 5-1 Capitals were it not for King Henrik.

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  26. Culkin: Aren't the shots about equal?

    I predicted NYR would win that series in 6.

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  27. I love Chris Cuthbert telling the viewer which D pairs are being sent out against the forward lines.

    Total pro.

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  28. Semin with the bullet top shelf for the win. Great game!

    FPV: shots after regulation were 23-19 Capitals, but the Caps had a lot of grade A chances through the first 2 periods. They whiffed on a bunch of them, but Lundqvist played well.

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  29. "Player A will probably finish 2nd in voting for a major NHL award.

    Player B is considered a failure by a lot of his fan base.

    A = Couture
    B= Gagner"

    Couture scored 32 goals this year.

    Gagner has scored 30 goals the last two years combined.

    Couture was also 53.4 on the dot this year and +18. We know Gagner's results.

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  30. Culkin: Aren't the shots about equal?

    I predicted NYR would win that series in 6.


    haahahaha don't you get tired of being wrong?

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  31. SB: Cause losing one game is the series now?

    Don't you get tired of being wrong?

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  32. Lee:

    I'm not saying that I expect Gagner to be anywhere near as a good a player as St.Louis or Datsyuk, but at Gagner's age Datsyuk was ready to start his final RSL season before coming over, and St. Louis was just finishing up his college career.

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  33. Smarmy:

    You do realize you are often the antagonist in an ongoing arguement with a 17 year old right?

    The zeal with which you torpedo everything the kid says is funny from my angle. If you are also 17, I understand. If you're a grown man I just have to say:
    "what the hell man?"

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  34. I wonder what Gagner's attitude to training and self-improvement are? This was supposed to be the year he showed us all a little more, and that simply did not happen. Perhaps it's not the team; perhaps it's just him?

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  35. Magisterrex: Well you could argue, team who usually get a high pick, improve and try to build around it, but the Oilers just went the other way around.

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  36. Perhaps it's not the team; perhaps it's just him?

    You watched this team right? You watched the GM torpedo the team last September with a porous defense that also happened to have no depth? You understand that the whole goal of playing NK as much as he was early in the season when it was obvious to everyone he wasn't doing it was to ensure the team lost right?

    I find it interesting we (as fans) are spending a lot of time blaming the individual players on this team for underperforming when they really had no other option. Asking everyone to play above their level (achieve career seasons, each and every one) while giving them little or no help on the back end is really not looking at the whole picture.

    Give me a team with some depth on defense and a non-reliance on a goalie who is finished , then I will start to ramp up my expectations on the forwards.

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  37. What's the record for most games in a season without a point?

    Sheldon Brookbank of ANA has 0. That's way suckier than Strudwick.

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  38. Go Nashville!

    earshani - shame turning the ears read

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  39. DF: my only problem is you made 14 too attractive;)

    Regarding bad puck luck while 89 played with 91-23, I can remember logging the chacnes around that time and I can tell you bad puck luck had nothing to do with it.

    I like all three kids but they were getting outchanced so the corresponding minus numbers were well earned.

    I really 89 and I don`t think he`s the problem; as long as he`s not making serious money of course and right now he isn`t.

    The Oilers just need that centre that can round out the 89-10 combo. is it 4. is it hopkins.

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  40. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  41. Using Traktor logic:

    Gagner got 27 assists
    Couture got 24 assists

    Therefore Gagner is superior

    Gagner factored in 22% of his team's goals.
    Couture factored in 23% of his team's goals.

    Therefore Couture is superior.

    Couture is a good young player and will probably finish 2nd in Calder voting.

    Gagner isn't as good in the face off circle, and doesn't have his scoring touch (at least for this year)

    In other respects they are very similar in terms of team contribution and type of ice time.

    One is considered great and the other is crap in the minds of some Oiler fans.

    Its just not true.

    Both are fine young players.

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  42. Dennis said:

    "Regarding bad puck luck while 89 played with 91-23, I can remember logging the chacnes around that time and I can tell you bad puck luck had nothing to do with it."

    Not true. Omarks pdo after his first 20 games or so was around .910. He was getting killed by the percentages, bottom 2 in the league if I remember correctly.

    That obviously extends to Gagners time on that line as well, at least to a degree. Sure, they were getting outchanced but the hockey gods had forsaken them, luck-wise.

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  43. butter passes flubbed" but it is up there."

    "So take it to the net and bury it young man." and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

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  44. I think the real problem for Gagner and a few others on this team is the lack of complementarity between players. So many players have similar skill sets. That is why Gagner played better with Penner and Penner plays better with Gagner even than with the LA kings.

    We all know the Oilers have too many small skilled playmakers (Gagner, Eberle, Omark, Hemsky), not enough big burly goal scorers(had Penner, now have none, maybe Hartski). One would think a trade or two would be obvious.

    Funny at Christmas I was thinking Gagner had not improved his points per game much but his plus minus was good for a bad team and he was playing power vs power many nights with Hemsky and Penner before Horcoff's injury then with Hall and Eberle, rather than being sheltered as he was his first two years. Then he went to play with the Swedes and specifically Omark I think was not as good his first 25 games defensively as his second 25 games, and Gagner paid the price on his plus minus.

    If he played with someone like Paajarvi and Penner I think that would be a good combination of skill play making and scoring. Once again I hope the Oilers consider trying to sign Glencross if he becomes available as I think he would be a very good complement to Gagner. Fast, goal scoring, battle winning guy to go with Gagner's vision and playmaking ability.

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  45. Too many people confuse the player with the contract. If this had been his second season with the same statistics, people would be raving.

    The problem with Gagner is not that he's learned how to lose (what a weird concept), but that maybe he's learned how to thrive as a small player. He could experience a boost in strength for his seasons aged 22 and 23. Would he know what to do with it? By now he's a four year vet with a certain proven way of doing things; he's got his NHL groove going.

    It's funny because Ganger is exactly the problem Tambi referred to in his recent quotes.

    From http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2011/04/13/17984321.html

    “We didn’t have the amount of choices needed as far as call-ups, we didn’t have enough people that were fighting for jobs, not only with the Oilers, but with our minor-league team. That is starting to come into place. We’re starting to restore some depth in our organization.”

    The empty pipeline thing dates back to previous ownership, greatly abetted by the 2006 late season stockpile and subsequent lemming diaspora.

    Then the team quivered for a couple of seasons like an addict after a brief taste of greatness, before coming up with build from within (which to an addict seems like routing a Ferrari through a school zone).

    We shouldn't neglect Gagner's value as a transition town for the rookies emerging from the restocked pipeline. Old man Struds is worth a lot more in the dressing room with Gagner sitting beside him rolling his eyes from time to time when his war stories descend into geezerhood. Wisdom is most useful as filtered through a group dynamic. Otherwise, it's an episode of Scotty meets Wesley Crusher without Gordi to mediate.

    They say in retail that "retail price exists for tourists". We couldn't land a Malhotra for what the Canucks paid (aka the street price on mid-grade serviceable ANPs). It seems we couldn't land anyone worth having for less than full tourist mark-up; some guys not at any price.

    The other track was to pack the clubhouse with tourist-tier ANPs and hold guys like Gagner down for longer. It might have been a better plan, but it doesn't appeal, even in retrospect.

    Trying to pack *every* ELC contract into the same window is a lot like the guy who mats it when the light changes to ensure he's the first guy to arrive at the next red light. Too many cylinders, not enough pipeline.

    Here's another thing about pipelines: if RNH is BPA, we're going to want a Teubert on every D pair. You don't want to skate monkey thugs up front to receive all those butter passes. After we win the cup, every other team will be emulating studs and muppets, and we'll no longer be able to tell when DSF is trolling, or not.

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  46. What is it about Detroit hockey? Every year I find myself pulling for those guys. They have always played exciting, even through the clutch and hold years. Their fans are great. The tradition, the octapus, the lore. I love that flaming wheel on their jerseys.

    They always seem to assemble teams of players who have decent seasons and become MONSTER PLAYOFF PERFORMERS (mocking hat tip to Pierre). And other then Bert on the current version, they always seem to be decent, modest, down to earth guys on the roster. If I'm putting money on a team to unseat VAN, it's Detroit. It's always Detroit.

    That said, I loved it when Hemmer put them away in '06. I made the trek to the house that Gretzky built for that game. I think it was Stoll to Hemsky across the blueline, loses it trying to stick handle through the D, but Samsonov is right behind him at the blueline. Samsonov holds it for seemingly an eternity and draws 3 redwings to him before feeding it back to Hemsky all by himself at the side of the net. Then bedlam.

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  47. even through the clutch and hold years.

    Which are from 1932-present.

    They are the masters of interference and pick plays as well.

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  48. I'm not sure that the difference in what ages their clubs have their RFA rights til is going to matter when comparing Gagner and Couture from an asset-management point of view.

    If Couture has a big season next year, aren't the Sharks likely to lock him up long-term at a pretty big price?

    Perry and Getzlaf got locked up to big deals right after their ELCs, and they're both UFAs after them.

    We could easily see Gagner and Couture both sign long-term deals after next season that will take them into UFA status.

    If so, same difference.

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  49. ...they always seem to be decent, modest, down to earth guys on the roster

    Who also happened more often than not to be on the advantageous end of calls from the referees because they were such decent guys.

    Chelios for example became a model citizen due to Detroit's humanizing locker room. While in Detroit, that's why he wasn't penalized as much whenever he would playfully tap someone in the face behind the play.

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  50. The big question for Sam arises if they take the Nuge.

    They can't have two smaller players playing 1 & 2 C. Especially given Sam's poor faceoff performance.

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  51. And I think a good comp for Gagner is Marc Savard. If I am right, then we are going to have to be very patient with him.

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  52. True, they do get the benefit of the doubt from the referees, maybe even moreso than MTL. They paid their dues though. In the 80's, I remember a young Stevie Y and a team full of pluggers playing against the Oilers and success on his shift seemed to be getting the puck out of the DET end.

    Later came their Stanley years, the Russian five (including devastating hits by Konstantinov), Bowman, Lidstrom, Yzerman. Illitch coming down to ice level with his wife for the Cup celebrations. Saying "We're happy for the boys", but their body language suggesting they kind of wanted to just get back home to catch Law & Order.

    Some say that their bucket list includes watching a game at the Forum in MTL (or whatever they call it now). For me it also includes watching a playoff game at the Joe.

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  53. Regarding the Highway 61 Revisited reference, Does Gagner's new nickname become "Georgia Sam"?
    BTW, I don't believe there are any Oilers players or management personnel who deserve "Hurricane". But there are endless possibilities for "Desolation Row," and "Idiot Wind."

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  54. "Using Traktor logic:

    Gagner got 27 assists
    Couture got 24 assists

    Therefore Gagner is superior"

    Gagner has 3 more assists than Couture.

    Couture has 17 more goals than Gagner.

    Keep digging.

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  55. @ woodguy

    The Red Wings have been the masters of interference and picks since Babcock's arrival.Babcock likes to refer to it as "puck support"

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  56. CSimpson18:

    You do not understand PDO or the relationship with scoring chances.

    You can have a low PDO because you generate shots that are poor quality (therefore not SC) and you give up high quality chances. Basically, it makes perfect sense to me that SC should trump PDO.

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  57. To be honest I'm not even a huge fan of Couture either. I think he will have a hard time reaching 30 goals again but he also brings speed, grit and defensive play that Gagner will never display.

    I bet if you polled the coaches of the 16 playoff teams and asked whether you would want Couture or Gagner on your club 16 of them would say Couture.

    Couture PK time: 85:17
    Gagner PK time: 25:36

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  58. Bill Needle: "Tangled Up in Blue" could apply to just about any member of the D-corps. "Baby Let Me Follow You Down' could describe next season. "Everything is Broken"? Well, what do you think? No matter what, we know a it's a hard rain's a gonna fall.

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  59. Traktor,

    My point is that I agree that Couture is probably the superior player, but there isn't a massive difference between the two via many metric.

    The opinion of the two is wider than the Grand Canyon and that shouldn't be the case.

    Familiarity breeds contempt and watching a player develop in a league that is the best in world is like watching sausage being made.

    Ugly to watch and we just want the end product.

    My point stands.

    Couture is good, even very good for his age.

    Gagner is good too.

    Neither of these players are anywhere near their peak, that will start in about 2 years.

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  60. Terry Jones latest in the
    Sun.

    Steady as she goes for next year.

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  61. If Couture has a big season next year, aren't the Sharks likely to lock him up long-term at a pretty big price?

    Perry and Getzlaf got locked up to big deals right after their ELCs, and they're both UFAs after them.


    If you look at the structure of their deals they are being more for UFA years than RFA years. Most, if not all, deals that include both are structured the same way.

    Lowers the cap hit.

    Getzlaf:

    4.5
    5.12
    5.12
    5.75
    6.125

    Ave= 5.35

    The Oiler can (and probably will) do a deal like that for 89. As soon as it hits the UFA years, the salary will go up.

    Will be interesting to see Couture's deal. The next one is probably a 2 year deal so they can do one more RFA deal after it.

    Couture has one year left on his ELC, Gagner has one left on his 2nd contract.

    I'll bet $5 that Gagner's cap hit is higher than Couture's since its bound to include UFA years.

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  62. Oiler fans are a funny bunch (I hate saying things like this, because obviously I consider myself to be a fan too). They seem to love players until they become usefull, at which point they turn on them like jackals.

    Guys like Gagner, Torres, Gilbert, and Stoll could seemingly do no wrong while they were getting eaten alive against NHL talent. As soon as they start taking on some actual responsibility and start pulling their own weight a little, everyone wants them out.

    I'd say we're about 2-3 years from message boards and radio shows being overloaded with fans proposing wthe Oilers use a guy like Paajarvi to move up 6-8 spots in the draft.

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  63. Another night of nothing from RNH last night. For the series:

    0-0 (-4) 2PIM

    At least he was not a minus last night for the first time in this series.

    Medicine Hat has done a very nice job shutting him down.

    Tyler Bunz is looking really good for the playoffs with a .946 save percentage and 1.69 GAA.

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  64. doesn't bode well that a bunch of 17-20 year olds can completely eliminate the supposed "best player available" when it matters most.


    give me a swede please!

    They simply cannot gamble on a potential bust at #1(I'm not suggesting he will be, just that he has the potential to be). It would set the franchise back even more.

    Take the safer player please

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  65. Thanks again LT for an insightful piece.

    Your blog got me interested in advanced stats and changed my understanding of the game.

    I am still trying to reconcile my "saw him good" with stats when I form opinions about players and teams. I find often I see what stats show later, but not with Gagner.

    You've shown he is performing well enough and improving, but I still wonder. Stats show averages, and I am trying to find a balance with good numbers and players that turn the tide of games and make an impact when an impact is especially needed.

    Players that create a certain pressure on the other team which for me is essential in breaking their game plan and system.

    Numbers have dispelled my belief in "big game goalies". For skaters, I still feel there are guys that turn the tide at key times, and those that get the stats and aren't game changers. EG. Glenn Anderson in OT was remarkable, a force when the chips were down, Hall is likely to be the same.

    I still see Gagner as a complimentary player who needs certain help to be decently productive. The Oilers are short on strong shooters with size which I would think is what he needs.

    I don't see the trait of dominance in him like Eberle and Hall. It makes me wonder if he can be a driving force on a contending team, which he needs to be as a 1-2 C. On such a small team I think there are better options (bigger tougher) for 3-4 C.

    I would love to see a stat that refers somehow to the timeliness of points scored. Perhaps by time of game, score, time of year, etc., the crucial things we've "seen" guys like Hall and Eberle do.

    I am also a proponent of decent size - last night Kane was struggling with traffic and was kept on the perimeter way too much IMO in a game that was critical to win, and was winnable. The Canucks were also roughing him up successfully, he looked like a child playing with men, which I don't think is a good thing.

    Sorry I'm so long winded - do you feel Gagner can be a key factor in a Cup team, more than just a "good" NHL'er?

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  66. Seguin scratched from first playoff game. I wonder how many games he ends up seeing.

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  67. Speaking of Medicine Hat...

    Don't know if it was mentioned on last night's thread, but I suspect not as usually LT puts up at small post, but Tyler Pitlick signed a 3 year ELC deal with the Oil yesterday per Van Diest at The Sun.

    Apologies if everyone is already up to speed.

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  68. FastOil, Kane still looked to be the best player on the ice for Chicago all night, and seemed to generate their best chances.

    Don't forget that last playoffs he was a major factor in their cup when he went on a points spree.

    I think good players help teams win, both in the regular season and in the playoffs. The question really is, can Gagner become a good NHL player. As LT stated, if Gagner can progress and take on the toughs and pot 40-60 points a season, he can definitely help a championship team.

    With some more strength and time I can see him getting there. Some more muscle will go a long way to helping with his face-offs as well. He needs to attend Camp Roberts or something.

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  69. Tyler Pitlick signed a 3 year ELC deal with the Oil yesterday

    This surprised me a little. He didn't exactly tear up the WHL, althought he did fine.

    Hopefully its one of those deals (maybe they all are) where if he goes back to junior it doesn't use up a year of the contract.

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  70. Lowetide, I agree Gagner is a fine player. But if Lamoriello offered his 2nd overall pick for Sam Gagner and Edmonton's 2nd pick... would you do it?

    From what I heard, there's not much difference between #10 and #50 in this draft. For that reason, Lamoriello may be interested in doing something like that (+ he has a center for Kovalchuk so he won't have to rush Jacobsen sp?).

    Then the Oilers have RNH and Larsson. All in a fictional world, yes, but I'm curious as to your opinion

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  71. The perception of Gagner and where he should be is in huge part due to the expectations after his rookie year. He put up a PPG in the last part of that season, proving that he could be a "clutch" NHL centre despite his size. I think because of this he's been leaned on too much as a source for offence. Is he part of the problem? Probably not, but each year even management seems to expect him (by not signing anyone else) to step in as a 60+ player and he hasn't shown that he can do that yet. So in that way at least he's one of the reasons the Oilers have been so bad. I prefer to blame that on management than Gagner.

    FastOil, you seem to be questioning Gagner's ability to step up by comparing him to Hall and Eberle after their first year in the NHL. The Oilers haven't even had any real "clutch" moments in the last four years so I don't know how you are making those claims. Gagner stepped up on the national stage as a junior player too and has had some really nice runs as a NHLer. The same things that will limit his effectiveness will limit Eberle as well. LT pointed it out early in these comments, but one of Eberle's best comps after one year is Gagner - the only real difference being their age in their rookie season.

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  72. Hopefully its one of those deals (maybe they all are) where if he goes back to junior it doesn't use up a year of the contract.

    Unless, I'm very much mistaken, that's how all ELCs work (well, to the age of 20). Since I'm pretty sure he's still ineligible for the AHL, and since I can't exactly see him cracking the Oilers' lineup (given their great depth at centre), I assume sending him back to junior and not burning a year of the ELC is the plan.

    Is Lander signed yet? I lose track of these things.

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  73. Lander is unlikely to be signed until after the WHC. Apparently that was his focus after the SEL season wrapped up.

    If the WHC ends and Lander still isn't signed a few weeks afterwards I'd start getting antsy. The Oil should have a contract ready and ponce on the 'Lamp' the day after Sweden closes out.

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  74. WG:

    I'm sure Gagner will have the higher cap hit if Couture only gets signed for 2 years on his next deal.

    Just pointing out that if he performs well, there's precedent for guys like Couture skipping right over that second RFA deal because the team wants to get him locked up long-term.

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  75. I'm no Gagner hater and see him simply as a symptom rather than a cause. The bigger issues for me are the Oilers ongoing attempts to ram square pegs into round holes by addressing problems sans longterm vision while employing a "throw as much as possible and pray something sticks" modus operandi. The proper linemates discussions occur too frequently simply because there's more emphasis placed on looking good on draft day, by necessity, than through an NHL season. Thankfully for Oilers management they exist in a "one born every minute" kinda town.

    For the life of me I just cannot see the world unfolding as it should with Gagner and Horcoff as your #1 and #2 C's no matter what designation each assumes. The talent isn't there at C and that leads to lines/roles not being defined properly. Horcoff probably shouldn't be your #1, would be a more than adequate #2 if there were a reasonable facsimile at #1, and makes too much dinero to be a #3. Gagner doesn't look to be a #1 offensively, isn't defensive enough to be a #3, if that line exists in the typical shutdown role, so is probably best suited to a #2 role, again, IF there were a true #1 in place. So we have two suitable, although much different skillset #2's, and securing that true #1 only makes one of two redundant, barring Horcoff accepting a $3M per paycut and #3 responsibilities. Cogliano an answer at any of 1-3? Maybe 3 if he learns how to take a faceoff and that talent should have shown itself by now.

    Something wrong with a Vancouver model and a Mary Kate, Ryan, and Manny trio at 1, 2, 3? Chicago with Studly, Sharp, and Dave?

    Gagner is a decent enough player with decent enough upside but for one reason or another I don't see his fit until Horcoff departs for Motown and a late 30's last ditch cup attempt. Tough spot for Gagner.

    Fill the pipeline with some depth at C. It's on a par with the needs on D. Stop forcing players into roles they aren't suited for with lame attempts to strengthen "around" them being the only option. Have the foresight to build with specific roles in mind.

    Wondering if the team summary finale will go the album route and be labeled simply as Blood on the Tracks?

    Stuplicity: resulting redundance when one builds without foresight

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  76. This may be old news but Gregg Drinnan of Taking Note is reporting Hamilton will likely sign a PTO with Oklahoma and to report to the Barons for the playoffs.

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  77. @maudite

    Sorry I was late to this comment. I am busy with some irl affairs.

    I take my posting around here about as serious as the Oilers take being a respectable hockey team.

    He's wrong because not only are the Rangers terrible but Washington has been winning games like that all year.

    I wouldn't normally say that to him because he goes off the handle when anyone challenges his opinions on anything and he'd cut and paste a bunch of stats or something that I wouldn't read anyways.

    It's sort of like when you guys get mad at DSF and tell him he has no concept of context with anything he types. Duh that's his thing.

    I needle fpv because it's fun and he makes the odd good post but his hubris is insufferable and he's easy to troll.

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  78. also I'm 13yr old so that should explain some things.

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  79. Gagner will be a good hockey player and will top out as a grittier but lower skilled version of Ray Whitney. He's gonna have perhaps a season or two in which most bounces go his way and end up with around a point per game. And If he's lucky, one of those seasons will be a contract year and a team is gonna pay him long term at close to 9% of the cap limit based on that performance and his draft pedigree. Hopefully, that team won't be the Oilers, assuming they'll be competitive and need to make judicious use of the cap room by then.

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  80. Gagner can play. I would feel little better about him if after four seasons I could say he's a center but he looks like a winger.

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  81. ongoing attempts to ram square pegs into round holes

    Wait. I thought Hemsky was the square peg? If Gagner is a square peg then doesn't he fit better on a team with Hemsky then?

    Mind you I got lost somewhere around the third #1. Apparently we need someone at centre though.

    A real strampo of a post (and the fact that Traktor agrees confirms it).

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  82. Here's hoping those Damphousse comparisons pan out in every way but one:

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=362258

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  83. Lowetide's reasonable expectations for Horcoff and Gagner the last 3 years

    Horcoff

    Predictions 2008-09

    71gp, 26-44-70 (.986 per game)
    Actual: 80gp, 17-35-53 (.663 per game)

    Predictions 2009-10

    71gp, 18-29-47 (.662)
    Actual in 2009-10: 77gp, 13-23-36 (.468)

    Predictions 2010-2011

    68gp, 13-29-42 (.618)
    Actual: 47-9-18-27 (.574)

    Horcoff has failed to reach LT's reasonable expectations 3 years in a row

    Gagner

    Predictions 2008-2009

    78gp, 18-35-53 (.679 per game)
    Actual: 76gp, 16-25-41 (.539 per game)

    Predections 2009-2010

    78gp, 20-40-60 (.769)
    Acutal: 68gp, 15-26-41 (.603)

    Predictions 2010-2011

    80gp, 16-37-53 (.663)
    Actual: 68gp, 15-27-42 (.618)

    Sam Gagner has failed to reach Lowetides' reasonable expectation 3 years in a row.

    Horcoff and Gagner have both failed to reach LT's reasonable expectations 3 years in a row. At what point does LT ask himself if Horcoff and Gagner aren't as good as he thinks they are?

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  84. At what point does LT ask himself if Horcoff and Gagner aren't as good as he thinks they are?

    Likely the year the team is not unintentionally or intentionally built to finish in the bottom 5.

    sorice - injured solid water

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  85. @traktor-nit pick much?If I look at this years prediction it looks pretty close.He would have needed to get 1 more goal and 10 assists in 12 games for LT to be EXACXTLY correct.Looks like his enthusiasm for Gagner has lessened a little and this year he was bang on.

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  86. They're all chickens! The rooster has sex with all of them.

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  87. Hockeyguy:

    I don't see what is wrong with bringing up LT's reasonable expectations in a thread dedicated to revisiting LT's reasonable expectations.

    Yes, LT lowered his expectations from 2009-2010 to 2010-2010 and was closer but even with lowered expectations Gagner failed to match his reasonable line in the sand.

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  88. Have we heard anythign at all on the status of Gagner's hand post-surgery?

    Was there a prognosis?

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  89. SS,

    Fairly sure that both Pitlik and Marincin are both AHL eligible next year.

    Not positive, but think it has to do with them not being drafted into the CHL as a 15 year old.

    Pitlik came from NCAA and Marinicin was import draft.

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  90. Sorry. I thought the Devils winning dropped them to 2nd.

    I'd really like to see RNH and Larsson as Oilers because they solve the franchise's two deepest holes.

    I wonder if Greg Sherman would be open to some kind of deal with Stastny/ Gagner/ Cogliano/ Smid deal.

    They still have the Blues pick so trading the 2nd overall pick is "possible" - Sherman is a brave soul.

    The rumor mill has a lot of draft day deals brewing. Might actually come true this year.

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  91. @Uni
    To my eye Kane was kept outside too much. He is exciting in style, but I thought Toews was far closer to scoring and was creating problems for the Canucks D by driving the net and corners, which was creating chances for others and putting pressure on them. Kane is sneaky but they didn't seem to stressed by him.

    To me your offense first players have to be able to produce when the points are needed. Kane did get his points last year, but only after Toews and Sharp carried the team far enough along. I want my elite talent to score consistently.

    This is my worry with Gagner - can he drive offense consistently, no matter what the Oilers face, or pick up points, like his former linemate, only when the seams open up for him? It was only game one for Kane, but game one is a pretty important game. The Hawk's chances are seriously diminished now.

    As for Gagner's size, small guys don't bulk up like big guys. He already is muscular and worked out, and at the season start said he dropped 10 lbs to gain speed. He can't get much heavier than he is because he's already pretty slow and not really mobile.

    I think he's a quality guy and want to think he can do it, but I want to win more. For 50-60 pts I would rather have a 200+ lb guy bringing physicality as well.

    Small players to me are usually fairly one dimensional, so that one dimension needs to be huge, as in a lot of production. Maybe that's Sam but I don't yet see it, and as I said I don't see the drive to be dominant like in Hall and Eberle who next year will likely pass him in points and stats.

    You can see that drive from the get go with guys who have it, even if they have learning to do and make mistakes.

    I guess I posted hoping some one had a thought or insight about him that would sway me over.

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  92. I didn't have a problem with Kane's game last night. He had one great chance on goal and another where he should have shot but instead ripped a pass over to Sharp.

    Kane's an interesting study for me in terms of how I perceive guys on and off the field or ice or court.

    I can't stand the way he acts but I love watching him play.

    In that regard it's sorta how I feel about Kobe Bryant.

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  93. Woodguy: You're more likely to be right than I am. So would the options then be as follows?

    1. Back to junior (ELC year and UFA year not burnt)
    2. AHL (ELC year and UFA year both burnt)
    3. NHL (ELC year and UFA year both burnt)?

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  94. Cabbiesmacker

    I think the Oilers understand they need a number one C. Thats why Tambo was trying to pry loose Seguin, Johanssen or Schenn. Its why they are looking at the Nuge.

    What would be the problem if they got a #1 C and then had two #2 C's? Gosh, C might even become a strength. I could see Gagner excelling in such a situation.

    Newsflash: the rebuild is still ongoing. Its not a finished product.

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  95. Gagner strikes me as a guy who got to where he is mostly on hard work and brains. He doesn't have the physical talents that his peers do. Not large, not fast, no howitzer our laser for a shot.

    He gets his points from reading and reacting to plays at speed, being where he should be, and generally using his head.

    In that regard, I think there's a decent chance of him becoming maybe a 2nd toughs out scorer. He's just closing in on 22, and has largely had to learn on the job after being rushed to the show. I think expectations are just too high at the moment. He might not pan out as well as we hope, but I'd be loathe to give up on him this early.

    As for size, sure I'd love a big bruising center oozing skill, but so would everyone else. I'd still be happy with a Cliff Ronning or Ray Ferraro though, and those guys did help win games

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  96. He gets his points from reading and reacting to plays at speed, being where he should be, and generally using his head.

    In that regard, I think there's a decent chance of him becoming maybe a 2nd toughs out scorer. He's just closing in on 22, and has largely had to learn on the job after being rushed to the show


    Mike Peca without the hitting?

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  97. @Uni

    I suppose that's true. The next year or two will answer the question can he play Sedin or Kessler and not get buried.

    Maybe the 6 year plan is about waiting 'till Sedin is too old and then avoiding Kessler.

    That's if he survives the draft floor as an Oiler.

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  98. Steve Smith: you have to be in the NHL to burn a contract year. If Pitlick and Marincin are in the AHL it does not effect their UFA status or ELC.

    Unless you are 20 and then it doesn't matter and the clock starts running to age 27 UFA status.

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  99. SS,

    As per capgeek:

    If a player aged 18 or 19 signs an entry-level contract with a club (with his age calculated on Sept. 15 of the year he signed the contract) but does not play in at least 10 NHL games, the contract will "slide" or be extended one year. The extension does not apply if the player turns 20 between Sept. 16 and Dec. 31 in the year he signed the contract.

    Depending on the contract's structure, the player's cap hit can be affected either by an increase or a decrease. Players who sign at age 18 can have their contract extended (or "slide") two seasons.

    CBA reference: Section 9.1 (d) (P. 23-24)


    Pitlik turns 20 on Nov 1, so his ELC will start ticking 11/12 regardless of where he plays.

    Marincin just turned 19 Feb 18, so if he signs his ELC this year and spends the year in the AHL, his contract can slide.

    Lander turns 20 April 20, so I'd imagine his starts ticking too.

    I perused section 9 of the CBA and saw no mention of European players being exempted, so that's my assumption. I may have missed something.

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  100. Thanks, Josh.

    That strikes me as a little weird, since if they play in the AHL (in contrast to major-junior) they will actually be getting paid in accordance with their ELCs, right?

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  101. Stortini a scratch in the Barons first playoff game. Ouch.

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  102. That strikes me as a little weird, since if they play in the AHL (in contrast to major-junior) they will actually be getting paid in accordance with their ELCs, right?

    Yeah. It's true, though. Smid played for the Duck's AHL team as a teenager, and so he ended up getting paid for four years of entry level play (one AHL, three NHL)

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  103. Something wrong with a Vancouver model and a Mary Kate, Ryan, and Manny trio at 1, 2, 3?

    Hendrik Sedin 30 years old 810 NHL games
    Ryan Kesler 26 years old 484 NHL games
    Manny Maholtra 30 years old 777 NHL games

    Points/NHL game of above players in the year they turned 21 (same as Gagner this year)

    H. Sedin 36pts 82 games .439pts/gm
    R. Kesler 23pts 82 games .280pts/gm
    M. Maholtra 14pts 72 games 0.194pts/gm

    S. Gagner 42pts 68 games 0.618pts/gm

    So following your logic, you would also throw a 21 year old Sedin, Kesler and Maholtra off your team for under performance.

    Compare to Gagner they're terrible.

    Well done.

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  104. Stortini a scratch in the Barons first playoff game. Ouch.

    Hide all sharp object from Bruce.

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  105. Also, Horcoff's reasonable expectations re-visiting is going to be "Shelter from the Storm", right?

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  106. Well, I had planned on "If Not For You."

    If not for you, babe, I couldn't find the door
    Couldn't even see the floor
    I'd be sad and blue if not for you.

    If not for you, baby, I'd lay awake all night
    Wait for the morning light
    To shine in through
    But it will not be new if not for you.

    If not for you, my sky would fall, rain would gather too
    Without your love I'd be nowhere at all
    I'd be lost if not for you
    And you know it's true.

    If not for you, my sky would fall, rain would gather too
    Without your love I'd be nowhere at all
    Oh what would I do if not for you ?

    If not for you, winter would have no spring
    I couldn't hear the robins sing
    I just wouldn't have a clue
    Anyway it wouldn't ring true if not for you
    If not for you, if not for you.

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  107. That's fine with me, as long as Gilbert Brule is "Lay Lady Lay".

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  108. Absolutely Sweet Marie and Maggie's Farm are also in contention.

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  109. Bar Qu: Wait. I thought Hemsky was the square peg? If Gagner is a square peg then doesn't he fit better on a team with Hemsky then?

    Mind you I got lost somewhere around the third #1. Apparently we need someone at centre though.

    A real strampo of a post (and the fact that Traktor agrees confirms it).


    Can't recall saying Hemsky was anything but an "injured" peg eligible for 57% of his teams games the past 3 seasons. Nice player. Not much consolation when he's sitting in sickbay tho is it?

    I said Gagner was most suited to second line duties if we had a real option at #1 I think. Unfortunately we already have a solid #2 pulling $5+ per being asked to fill that "round" hole. Care to rebut? Perhaps you could enlightenen the rest of us re Ganer being a perfectly suitable #1 or #3 while doing so?

    Sorry for the numbers confusion. Next time I'll spell out one, two and three for those more phonetically inclined than numeric.

    Perhaps the TWO posters who could decipher my comment speaks more to you being the ONE with the issues or does being a regular give you some sort of free pass when it comes to comprehension?

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  110. WG: So following your logic, you would also throw a 21 year old Sedin, Kesler and Maholtra off your team for under performance.

    Compare to Gagner they're terrible.

    Well done.


    Can you point out where I stated Gagner should be thrown off the team or that he was anything more or less than a viable #2 option?

    Or maybe where I stated anything other than we have two legit #2's but no viable options at 1 and 2 on the current roster?

    No?

    Well done.

    The Vancouver / Chicago examples were thrown out as samples of teams with clearly defined 1, 2, and 3's only and perhaps something the Oilers could contemplate going forward. Nothing more.

    Guess we could keep throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks or asking players to step beyond their talent levels to fill need tho. Seems to have worked pretty well the past 3 three years.

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  111. For the life of me I just cannot see the world unfolding as it should with Gagner and Horcoff as your #1 and #2 C's no matter what designation each assumes.

    Gagner is tracking ahead of Van's #1 and #2.

    Does it mean he'll be better?

    Who knows, my crystal ball is broken, but he's scoring exceptionally well for a 21 year old with his type of ice time.

    Everyone is jumping to conclusions on a kid who should be in his rookie year, but the organization that he plays for was a developmental basket case.

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  112. Woodguy said...

    "Gagner is tracking ahead of Van's #1 and #2.

    Does it mean he'll be better?

    Who knows, my crystal ball is broken, but he's scoring exceptionally well for a 21 year old with his type of ice time.

    Everyone is jumping to conclusions on a kid who should be in his rookie year, but the organization that he plays for was a developmental basket case."

    C'mon now WG...where's your context?

    In his 21 year old season, how did the Canucks use Kesler?

    7th in TOI/G among Canuck forwards at 14:02.

    Virtually no PP time (10th among Canuck forwards.

    Pretty much the same story with Henrik.

    9th among Canuck forwards in TOI/G at 13:31 and 7th in PPTOI/G

    Obviously, both Kesler and Henrik were getting third line minutes while Gagner is getting prime icetime and prime PP minutes.

    Gagner 17:44 TOI/G

    Gagner 2:56 PPTOI/G 3rd amongst Oiler forwards (before Penner left)

    Gagner is getting a huge boost from his being fed primo ice time and he's pooping the bed.

    Put him on the third line, with third line mates, with no PP time, and you're likely looking at a 30-35 point player "after" his fourth season.

    And, problem is, he doesn't have the grit or battle level to play on any good team's third line.

    He's only tracking ahead of those two if you ignore how they were used.

    If the Oilers draft a potential #1C, since they have a very expensive #2C, Gagner is eminently expendable.

    Mober that for a moment.

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  113. I got DSF to post about context.

    Do I win an award?

    So since those players were not trusted with the quality of minutes that Gagner is, you agree that he tracking ahead of them.

    Excellent.

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  114. Isn't there anything better than playoff hockey?

    I just want to stop doing anything and just watch hockey all the time.

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  115. Woodguy said...

    "I got DSF to post about context.

    Do I win an award?

    So since those players were not trusted with the quality of minutes that Gagner is, you agree that he tracking ahead of them.

    Excellent."

    Ah, WG, context is easy as long as you don't use it to try and bolster a conclusion you've already reached due to bias.

    The reason Gagner is getting those minutes is because the Oilers have no one else to take them and, of course, they need to sell hope.

    Why would you "trust" someone who can't take on tough competition and has made zero progress in offensive output in four years.?

    Jeff Skinner, an 18 year old, a lower draft choice, playing third line minutes with pluggers, just embarrassed Gagner.

    63 points, +3 compared to Gagner's 18 year old season, 49 points -21.

    I wonder what LT's 'reasonable expectation of Skinner at 21 years of age might be.

    Is he "tracking well"?

    "Suburo", WG's version of seppuku, or maybe what he drives to work :)

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  116. Isn't there anything better than playoff hockey?

    I just want to stop doing anything and just watch hockey all the time.


    Oh, go hang around the blog of an actual hockey team and stop taunting Oilers' fans.

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  117. Whi is this cabbiesmacker guy?

    Looks like he knows what he's talking about.

    Coenicu?

    I don't think so.

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  118. DSF,

    My last post was my attempt at a DSFian post where I move the argument to something ridiculous (like Gagner is more "trust-worthy" than those other players at the same age), and sure enough you followed.

    Strangely effective.

    Ah, WG, context is easy as long as you don't use it to try and bolster a conclusion you've already reached due to bias.

    What conclusion have I reached? Other than Gagner is doing well for a 21 year old, I don't see anything else.

    The reason Gagner is getting those minutes is because the Oilers have no one else to take them and, of course, they need to sell hope.

    Agreed. He should be a rookie this year. Although he's too "old" to sell under the hope banner. Gotta be fresh to be sold by LaForge.

    Why would you "trust" someone who can't take on tough competition and has made zero progress in offensive output in four years.?

    Well that's just wrong and you know it. He took a big step in terms of toughness of minutes this year and you know that.

    Jeff Skinner, an 18 year old, a lower draft choice, playing third line minutes with pluggers, just embarrassed Gagner.

    He played 63.69% of the time with Rutuu, hardly a plug, more like a quality 28 year NHL vet who has a history of making the puck go the right way.

    Rutuu's ppg last 3 years (incl. this one)

    08/09 0.684
    09/10 0.648
    10/11 0.695

    Skinner also played 25% of the time with Cole and 10% of the time with Staal.

    63 points, +3 compared to Gagner's 18 year old season, 49 points -21.

    I wonder what LT's 'reasonable expectation of Skinner at 21 years of age might be.

    Is he "tracking well"?


    So because Skinner is better than Gagner, Gagner is terrible?

    Excellent logic.

    How current many NHL'ers have had an 18 year old season like Skinner's?

    Answer? One.

    Using your logic every player in the NHL, other than Crosby is a failure.

    Quite the standard.

    inguarad: where Rutuu met his girlfriend

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  119. Woodguy said:


    Well that's just wrong and you know it. He took a big step in terms of toughness of minutes this year and you know that"

    Really? Are you sure?

    Qual Comp for Oiler forwards:

    Horcoff: .057
    Hall: .043
    Eberle .030
    Brule .023
    Cogliano:.022
    Hemsky: .017
    Gagner: - .013.

    Sorry Buddy, but he's facing 7th toughest competition and getting his ass handed to him.

    He IS Kyle Wellwood.

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  120. Kyle Wellwood is awesome. You shut yo mouth.

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  121. Excellent Dylan retort, LittleFury. I just wish Oilers management would start "Pressing On" and find some "Paths of Victory" next season before "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue". Because I became a "Man of Constant Sorrow" on "One Too Many Mornings," the past couple of seasons.

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  122. DSF,

    Brule - 41 gp
    Horcoff - 47 gp
    Hemsky - 47 gp

    I can see why you come to you concusion, but 89 was playing 1/2 nd toughs for most of the year.

    I did make a mistake though, he took that step last year, not this year.

    Last year with players > 40 games he was 5th QC among forwards.

    So we are looking at the same numbers, I'm using Corsi QC. Desjardin has stated that its the "most accurate".

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  123. My quantitative two cents on the DSF/Woodguy battle:

    Quality of argument: .8
    Me getting smarter because of it: .6

    Probability of me getting smarter from ANY argument: .32

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  124. My quantitative two cents on the DSF/Woodguy battle:

    I think "battle" is a little strong.

    More like "needling with selective stats"

    Ha! :)

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  125. Robert the Bruce: Culloden is beautiful this time of year.

    Angus MacDonald: True, but are we ready for the battle, Bob?

    Robert the Bruce: Battle? We're really just needling with selective stats.

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  126. Woodguy,

    What I see from comparisons and stats is how a player is likely to produce at the NHL level.

    What it doesn't tell is whether or not a player has the jam to be a factor on a Cup winner.

    Sedin, Malhotra are on the downside of their careers - no Cups, not much Play Off success.

    Kessler is in his prime - we'll see.

    Maybe this year for the Canucks. If not, I don't like the comps. How does Gagner as a top centre compare to proven winners?

    There's more to it than point scoring. There is the factor of wanting to come out on top, no matter what it takes - this defines Taylor Hall.

    My issue with Gagner isn't scoring or mistakes, it's that I don't see dominance in his play (or Cogliano, Brule, etc), especially when I think the team needs it. I am trying to understand Gagner as a player, or where he could fit in a Cup winning team, but I can't see it yet.

    The Cup is the only thing that matters, it's pro sports. The team I cut my teeth on had dominance in spades from the very beginning, and once experience caught up it was awesome to watch. I want to see it again, as much as is possible.

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  127. I think we need a weighted formula for rating hockey players, in which the categories are boxcards, underlying stats, jam, and clutch.

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  128. SS

    don't forget which type of peg they are. That's key.

    montess - Abbreviated mountain starting with S

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  129. cabbiesmacker,

    Judging effectiveness of a #1 centre by the highest possible standard means that 25 teams don't have a single #1 centre (and Pitt has two). OR you could say that a #1 centre is the tough minutes/PVP guy on the team, making Horcoff the Oilers #1 center (which some people don't like, but give me a better choice on the roster). Gagner is a good compliment as #2.

    All NHL calibre players have had their stats killed as a member of the Oilers during the last 4 years. Expecting them to outperform when the team is designed to underperform is nonsense. So, please, go ahead, look at the data, argue the nuances but don't expect that ANY player on the Oilers is going to measure up. Porous, thin and inadequate D, coupled with a less than adequate goalie ensure all of that.

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  130. My definition of "legitimate number one centre" is "one of the thirty best centres in the league". My definition of "number one centre" is "the centre who plays the most minutes per game on each team". So Shawn Horcoff's a number one centre, but he's not a legitimate number one centre.

    I'll stop short of saying that those are the only reasonable definitions, but not by much.

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  131. Good day.

    This kid just keeps adjusting to everything that's thrown at him. He and his huge brain will work on his game until he can't physically play it any more. So, if he has his sights set on being sublime support for elite wingers, I'm not going to bet against him.
    ;-D

    L8r
    Louise

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  132. *creeeak*

    Anyone here?

    Reasonable Arstpectations limps along behind LT with a preview of Sam "Crazy Eyes" Gagner, Movember edition.

    http://plixi.com/p/93772000

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  133. Whoops, last comment was me. Girlfriend didn't log out of her gmail.

    Nice to see her support my work for once haha--siiiigh.

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