What exactly does Jones do? I'm not talking so much about the one-off goal total, but more about his role on the team. The Oilers always talk about "three scoring lines" but in reality this team could use some actual NHL players with an idea about the importance of what you leave.
Is Jones that player? If not, can he supply enough pop to bat in the middle of the order, or at the very least keep the line going when hitting in the 6 or 7 slot?
That's the question Edmonton must ask itself. How much money is Ryan Jones worth?
Ryan Jones 10-11
- 5x5 points per 60: 1.38 (7th among regular forwards)
- 5x4 points per 60: 3.63 (4th among regular forwards)
- Qual Comp: 10th toughest faced among regular forwards
- Qual Team: 10th best available teammates among regular forwards
- Corsi Rel: -11.1 (worst among regular forwards)
- Zone Start: 49.7% (8th easiest among regular forwards)
- Zone Finish: 49.4% (11th best among regular forwards)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 126/14.3% (2nd among F's)
- Boxcars: 81gp, 18-7-25
- Plus Minus: -5 on a team that was -52
- What do these numbers tell us? Ryan Jones and his 14.3 shooting percentage were in the right place at the right time a helluva lot this season. Although his previous NHL shooting percentages (11.11 and 12.90) were solid and his college rates (16.54, 19.59 and 17.92) as a regular suggest some shooting skills Jones is extremly unlikely to reproduce at this season's percentage.
- How could these numbers be better? They can't. Jones scored 15 goals at even strength, tied with men like Teemu Selanne and David Booth. Jones scored his 15 EV goals in 881 minutes, Selanne took 1055 minutes and Booth 1302. His relCorsi could be better, but his -5 tells us he didn't pay for that either. He was walking on sunshine.
- Was there no hint what all that he had some offensive ability? Sure there was. In the 10-11 RE pre-season item I wrote "he's a robust player, has some size, and if his hands are soft enough to cash from the goal mouth on the PP it gives the team another option. He did score a couple of powerplay goals in Nashville." And that's exactly what happened, although at 5x5.
- So he'll never score 18 again? I'm not saying that. I'm saying he'll never score 18 again while boasting a 14.3 shooting percentage and oh by the way bury 15 of them in 881 minutes at EVs while also playing with Andrew Cogliano and Liam Reddox. I mean, this is impossible. Ryan Jones finished the season in the league's top 40 shooters by percentage. He finished 1.04/goals per 60 minutes at 5x5, same as Marian Gaborik.
- Can he check? Tom Renney rolled 4 lines like the lord told him to do it, so we don't know how he'd be used on a contending team. Jones has some PF qualities and you can see how he could help a good team in a support role: chipping in some goals, playing with energy and playing well without the puck.
- I don't see why you're being critical. He had a great season. I'm not critical--I'm incredulous! There's a real question about his being able to repeat this again next year.
- So what's the problem? The contract that he rejected and the offer to follow, along with counting on him to repeat his 18 goal season. I'd be fine with a signed Jones at a reasonable cost and the Oilers putting him on a support line but if they pay him plenty there's going to be a temptation to use him on the PP and a more featured role.
- So you want him to play the same minutes and with the same quality of teammates as last season? Along with the same expectations we had a year ago.
- Done. Right. Let's wait for the contract.
Prediction for 2010-11: 69gp, 10-12-22 (.319)
Actual 2010: 81gp, 18-7-25 (.309)
Probably good at card games
I am a little nervous about his contract also. Do we know the numbers involved in the rejected offer?
ReplyDeleteAs much as I like Jones, if he is shooting for the moon on term and dollars he can walk. We can't have contracts for support players limiting the team when time comes when we have to pay our elite talents.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see the Oil re-sign Jones, even at a slight overpay. The great attitude of Jones and the swagger of Omark are what I hope would help define the new culture of the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteI can't stand Jones. He got just drubbed by scoring chances this year. I'd be happy to see him walk.
ReplyDeleteThe Canucks have gone 3 mile island.
ReplyDeleteI haven't the time to look into it thoroughly, but to me Jones's value to this team depends on his ability to contribute defensively. I think it's apparent from Corsi and Scoring Chances that that isn't happening at 5x5. Is it happening on the Penalty Kill? I don't have the numbers. Anyone?
ReplyDeleteI say this because I think he's shown that he can contribute offensively, but he obviously can't handle anything better than the butter soft minutes (see Corsi/SC). That makes him an offensive 4th liner (Is that an oxymoron?). If I'm running this team, I would rather have an offensive rookie take those minutes. Unless he's a solid penalty killer, I don't see his role on a winning hockey team.
Absolute classic KLowe ....... Never asks what is market.... Says I like Jones so pay him Pisani type #'s never recognizing that was huge overpay.
ReplyDeleteFully anticipate overpay coming and then when Jones'production falls and it will, he will say something stupid like after 2 30 place finishes, I was under pressure from fan base to sign competitive players. MSM will repeat this tale like it's gospel
We just want good moves not stupid moves. Paying Jones ridiculous money is just that:....... ridiiculous
there should be a thread to celebrate the Hawks latest win over the Dys;)
ReplyDeleteGoing forward 28 isn't gonna get a lot of TOI or opportunities so unless he was really driving the PK improvement over the last 60 games - and I ask not knowing this but only knowing he had a lot of SH chances - then it should be easy to stick to a figure and walk away if 28 doesn't play ball.
Back to the Dys, it's like a funeral on CBC with the Habs choking away the 2-0 lead and now Chi with the momentum; CBC could be Can team less by the second round.
Hughson is pretty much a beaten man on the air.
This is wonderful.
also, bieksa is showing himself to be the dirtbag we all knew he was.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know what the cause was of all the Dys hate for Burish but apparently he called Bieksa a spot-picker.
and I think that pretty much nails it.
I'd put Bolland-Sharp and Kane or Toews away for the last 10 min and have some fun if I was Q.
its a 3-0 lead no?
ReplyDeleteloooooong way to go for the Hawks.of course i am rooting for them
Nope. It's a 3-2 series by 10:30 Edmonton time.
ReplyDeletei meant that Nucks are choking away a 3-0 lead
ReplyDeleteI know it is probably too much to ask for, but if the Hawks take the series I couldn't have scripted a better way for the Canucks to exit the playoffs.
ReplyDeleteSumOil: Ah, I understand.
ReplyDeleteThis LAK-SJS game is crazy.
I'll expand upon that last thought because it is enjoyable.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing about Dys fans is they act like they've been there before and that they are, well, the fans of the NHL's great Dynasty. I'm not in Vancouver but I've been during the playoffs and I imagine the smug levels after game three were visible from space.
So to see "Louuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" leave the ice twice in a row and the rest of the team just fold like I always figured they would, well, that's classic. I mean, even if the Canucks advance they'll be doing so with their tail between their legs (though their fans won't act like it). But a Hawks comeback is something I'd tell my grandchildren.
Totally agree with those that think that unless RJ can take on an effective 4th line PK role along with the corresponding spc he can take his 1.5 x 3 demands based on an unsustainable one-off lucky season and waltz on down to Hotlanta.
ReplyDeletepinesedi: a phallic Jedi
Jones could fill a short term role, so I don't really care if they pay him a couple of hundred Gs too much. Just don't make it long enough to handcuff the team when they need the money in a few years.
ReplyDeleteThis series has the same feel as2002 when Cloutier let in that goal from center ice.You just know it's going to end badly.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah,if Jones is looking to cash we can let him walk without that big of a fuss.I would be fine with a 2 year deal for just over a million but if he wants more well then he can test free agency.
Living in BC, I can attest to the average Canucks fan's arrogance.
ReplyDeleteThe current team is, of course, solid from top to bottom and very well run--but their fans act as if they've made the finals 5 of the last 10 years and have taken the Cup home at least once.
They create their own reality really: on one hand their team's greatest achievement is losing game 7 to the Rangers in '94, but I'm continuously told that the Oilers' run in '06 is "ancient history" and "they lost anyway".
I saw an interview with Jones where he said he turned down the first contract offer because it was only a 1-year deal and he's looking for some security.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe we'll end up with a reasonable cap hit still, but just for a little longer term than is maybe optimal.
Penner not playing much again. Maybe we can get him back at the draft for our 2nd rounder...
ReplyDelete...3rd?
cf13
ReplyDeleteFor me,the bigger thing is the term.Even if Jones underperforms on a 2 year deal he'll only have that last year left on the deal and we'll have more options if we need to move him.Having a third year--or more--yikes.
vPenner not playing much again. Maybe we can get him back at the draft for our 2nd rounder...
ReplyDelete...3rd?
They can have Teubert and their third back for him. We keep their first.
Great post, LT. Funny stuff.
ReplyDeleteAlso, sorry to everyone for not mentioning that the last episode of Oil Change was on tonight like I usually do. I got lost reading that last thread and forgot all about it.
You can watch it HERE if you missed it.
Ryan Jones will be 27 at the start of the season. He doesn't seem to have injury troubles. Maybe a longer term deal is the way to go if he's looking for security?
ReplyDeleteI think most contending teams would accept Jones on their 4th line with the ability to move up the lineup on occasion. If he can be a 2nd unit PK guy to boot then maybe he's worth 1.3-1.5 for 4 or 5 years? The cap's going up isn't it?
Best night of the playoffs so far - Habs lose, Nucks get it shoved up their ass and this LA-SJ series has it all.
I don't want to get too excited yet, but a Flames/Leafs just missing out, the Nucks blowing a 3 game lead, the Habs losing out under any circumstance, and the Oil picking 1st overall is as good as it gets for an Oilers fan these days.
They can have Teubert and their third back for him. We keep their first.
ReplyDeleteI am pretty sure that all of the guys who went ballistic on how 'robbed' Tambo was on that trade would still find a way to complain.
As per Jones.
ReplyDeleteI say 4 years at $2.75 per year
¡
WHAT?????????????????????????
ReplyDeleteNice to hear they offered him a one-year deal. In my ideal world they'd let him go to free agency, but a one-year deal to see what he can do next year is the next best thing.
ReplyDeleteyah, I think Lombardi wants a refund for Penner.
ReplyDeleteHe's made some nice plays here and there, but just not bringing enough. I know physicality isn't his thing, but it's the playoffs - everybody is physical - not enough from him.
I think he's been benched.
SK Oiler Fan said...
ReplyDeleteBest night of the playoffs so far - Habs lose, Nucks get it shoved up their ass and this LA-SJ series has it all.
I don't want to get too excited yet, but a Flames/Leafs just missing out, the Nucks blowing a 3 game lead, the Habs losing out under any circumstance, and the Oil picking 1st overall is as good as it gets for an Oilers fan these days.
You forgot to add in the LA loss bringing their traded #1 selection in place on the picking order. I never wanted the Ducks to win before.
And we celebrate these events with the Oiler fans drink of choice during the playoffs, a Schadenfreude cooler...
bookie,
According to Ryan or Terry Jones?
Has anybody considered that Penner may have married a succubus (like Chef was going to!)?
ReplyDeleteHe has been the invisible giant ever since his all-star break wedding.
"Tree-fitty"
Whatched oil change! The last thre RNH plays were telling. On his ass and perimeter.
ReplyDeleteBeauty hunter!
The oilers can finish 30th with or without Jones.. I dont mind them giving him a bit over a mill, consider it a bonus for this year, but any serious attempts at leveraging those 18 goals needs to be met with the phone being hung-up..
ReplyDeleterickibear, you have made an interesting argument but you are probably overstating your case with the vehemence and frequency you rag on RNH.
ReplyDeleteThere's a reason why 7 out of 10 scouts rank the guy as #1. I'm not saying they are absolutely correct, but you are saying they are absolutely wrong. That's wherein lies my problem, your authority on the subject comes from something that's readily available, and most obvious to every scouting department out there. Yet he is still the consensus number 1.
You may be right, but you seem to forget you're throwing cheap darts from the walmart clearance bin here like the rest of us, while the pros are doing the circuit on TSN pub night.
For anyone that missed Oil Change, they follow MBS to a junior game. Stu talks about Larsson, Landeskog, Couturier, but not RNH. However he states that size and skill are nice, but hockey sense is everything.
ReplyDeleteThey then close in on RNH playing against the Oil Kings.
After seeing Gagners hockey IQ be somewhat stumped by his size, then it's possible Stu is overstating his case there as well ;)
Anyways, we will get a great player regardless, and after the recent crop of rookies, it's not so imperative that we hit a grand slam this draft. If we get the 2nd or 3rd best, we're still ok IMO.
Which makes me lean towards a safe pick.
Last 2 games, 15-2 for Chicago..........LOL. A lot of soiled undies I am sure out there in Vancouver.
ReplyDeleteBookje: 4 years at 2.75 per year for Jones - holy cow man.
Should be 12-2 Chicago last 2 games, 12-2...15-2 it's all good.
ReplyDeletePretty fitting for Chicagos season. Killing in the goal differential department, yet sitting on the brink of elimination.
ReplyDeletePenner played 10:56 last night - third fewest minutes on the Kings.
ReplyDeleteoy! Bet Lombardi didn't think he was trading for a 4th liner.
WHAT?????????????????????????
ReplyDeleteNote the bookiethingy!
That does sound like some of our 2007 contracts though - doesn't it?
I thought Penner would shine in LA, but I was ok with the return as well (given that I didn't see Penner sticking around for the long term). With that said, if we could get him back for a second round pick I would be thrilled.
ReplyDeleteOne very good thing about the Penner situation is the powerful message it sends about the grass NOT always being greener on the other side of the fence. I am not suggesting that Penner assumed this (he was traded and had no say in the matter).
He is the Oilers best trading card. And worst re-signing already.
ReplyDeletecless - by the end of the season I was so apathetice I could only c'less about how the Oilers were doing.
Penner will be fine in LA. Look, Anze freaking Kopitar got hurt and that's massive, nuclear.
ReplyDeleteDustin Penner < Anze Kopitar. Kings have a lot of excellent players but baby they're not the same team now.
We knew it when we saw it. Blaming Penner is misreading the situation imo.
sayerraw. I don't know but it sounds nasty.
LT: I think some of the criticism comes from the fact that in Edmonton, Penner was often driving the play and he didn't need Kopitar's help to do it. Hell, he even managed to make a line with Cogliano and Brule look good!
ReplyDeleteHe may not be the only thing wrong with the Kings, but he doesn't seem to be taking the team on his shoulders either, the way he sometimes could with the Oil.
Penner is not going to be traded back to the Oilers. That would be suicide for Lombardi.
ReplyDeleteThe best we could hope for is that he has a middling season next year and wishes to come back here as a FA for reasonable $.
As for Jones, I'd give him the same deal Glencross got in Calgary. 3 yrs x $1.2 million a year. If he wants more, see ya.
Cactus: I guess so, but it seems to me there's a little bit of "I told you so" in there and anyone familiar with sample size does it at their peril.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I think their coach has badly mishandled the whole thing. :-)
LT, Not sloely blaming Penner for LA's struggles (Goaltending and D are their problems), just focusing in on his individual play.
ReplyDeleteMaybe he's injured, but Penner's level of "give-a-shit" is at an all time low and he's skating in quick sand. It doesn't matter what he's going to do when Kopitar comes back next year. it's the playoffs dammit - show something!
Do you think Lombardi is thinking wow, we're going to be sweet next year when we have Kopitar back to play with Penner. Penner was picked up for the playoffs. LA is still a good team. It would do the team wonders to win a series.
"As for Jones, I'd give him the same deal Glencross got in Calgary. 3 yrs x $1.2 million a year. If he wants more, see ya."
ReplyDeleteI agree with this. Only difference is that the cap situation in Edmonton is going to be a bit different than it was in Calgary. First, we've got more cap space and Second, the cap is going to go up.
So "the same deal as Glencross" should be more like 3 years x $1.3 million, once you adjust it for increasing cap and the available cap space over the next 2 to 3 years.
If Jones wants any more than 1 million I hope he is told to beat it.
ReplyDeleteHave no difficulty with Jones at 3 years @ $1.2 or 1.3m per season. Am anticipating 3 or 4 years @$1.75m per.
ReplyDeleteSincerely hope I am wrong.
Penner is what Penner is, big, skilled and lazy. When motivated he is a real solid player. He ain't playing motivated in LA...... Man what a big and SLOW team that is
Good for v3.0 for only wanting to give him one year.
ReplyDeleteHamilton and Pitlick are going to the AHL next year and by 12/13 they will be able to fill Jones' role for less than 1MM, and probably 3242234 times better.
Watching Jones play hockey is like watching a dude with massive dreadlocks mopping a floor on acid.
He spins around hair flying every where and uses up a lot of energy, but at the end, the floor is dirtier than when he started.
If Jones walks almost every NHL FA can take his place and the Oilers wouldn't miss a beat.
In fact, given his playoff performance, OKC Baron Mark Arcobello might be an upgrade on Jones.
Jones is not too good at hockey. It's fun to watch him though.
As for the Penner trade here was my issues with it:
1) Trading away an Actual NHL Player for things that are not Actual NHL Players pushes the playoff window back. I was pissed off because I think with the right moves the Oilers could contend for 8-10th if a few things feel right in 11/12.
2) The return: A first, 3rd and prospect is a reasonable return for season and a half of Penner. The problem was the prospect. Its the one thing Tambellini can control in the whole thing, he can pick an actual person, and he picks their 4th-5th best D prospect.
Teubert had been a healthy scratch for the Monarchs this season, others are better than him, but Tambellini picks him. Then when Terry Jones asks about Tuebert's struggles at the presser, v3.0 has no clue that he had been HS this year. Brilliant.
I think v3.0 has fallen victim to a long standing Oiler malady draft pedigree. This sickness goes back to Slats. Failed 1st rounders will always find a second home on the Edmonton Oilers.
I'm not saying Teubert has failed yet, but his projection line is not going up at this time.
Frankly, I think their coach has badly mishandled the whole thing. :-)
ReplyDeleteI agree. He should have known he'd have to put the pacifier in Penner's mouth and tell him he's a good boy before he'd play well.
Maybe Murray should phone his old mentor Pat Quinn and ask him what flavour of Pablum Dustin likes.
What I do like about RJ is the chaos that follows him around from the red line into the offensive goal area. Sort of like the dust and dirt following Pigpen peanuts character.
ReplyDeleteOpposing teams are thinking..ok, watch out for these young fast skilled whipper-snappers that are the Oilers, and then in comes Jones off script and creates chaos not expected, right WG, he is fun to watch.
WG - I know the source is a little biased but...Stauffer was saying a few days ago that Teubert was the best d-man on the ice for game 2 vs Hamilton. Laying guys out and looking pretty poised and confident. I still haven't had a chance to see him play to form my own opinion but maybe he's better that LA thought? Just wondering...
ReplyDelete*than*
ReplyDeleteDanny: If scouts do have ''the best darts'' how come it took them until M-A Fleury to stop drafting goalies early?
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying they're garbage but just assuming they know best is kinda wably.
As for Jones, he is not a great hockey player, and unless he is willing to become an effective role player first (which he isn't now) and "primo" goal scorer second, he won't be a key contributor for the Oilers. He was a cherry picker this year.
ReplyDeleteSign low and trade in a package while he is at peak value (because of goals) to secure that second top 5 pick.
Trade Gagner for a top pick, then take RNH and Couturier. IMO that would be a smoking 1-2 C. Couturier will play next year and will produce the same and play better overall than Sam so no loss there. RNH will need a year or two.
As for the Canuckle Heads, they haven't learned about overconfidence and speaking crap through all of the early exits. The Lions are also famous for great regular seasons and early playoff exits - must be the city.
Vigneault was talking like there was no problem and his group could handle anything and anyone. Shows disrespect, which is a great motivator for the other team. When the Oilers were great they learned that lesson early.
Kessler has the worst attitude I think I have ever seen in the NHL. He is a testy jerk in interviews, I suppose thinking he is a tough guy warrior, not to be messed with. I guess Pronger can be like that, but at least he has a resume. Kessler's reads: talks tough, loses big. Walk softly, carry a big stick Ryan - do it on the ice. See: Messier.
I think it is also important to consider the size issue. The Sedins and Burrows are getting manhandled and are on the perimeter. They are all too small to bring a physical game, so really the only contribution they can make is to play defensively. Not what you want from your best line.
Toews hasn't produced points, but has been an unstoppable force, and his physical dominance and speed is a big reason why the Canucks are folding. He is opening up the game for his team and dominating the opposing best centres.
Something to consider for the draft. Do we risk this happening to us in the hopes that RNH has "rare" vision? That he won't get shut down when things get rough because he's skinny (and always will be)? Small guys can hit, but they can't do what big guys do when they want to dominate.
Or take the guy who dominates all aspects of the game and opposing centres? The things that matter and win championships. If we don't draft both, take the big guy please.
Derek Zona looks at Jones' scoring chance data on March 14
ReplyDeleteAnother nickname for Jones should be "where scoring chances go to die"
He plays the dregs with the dregs and gets killed.
No way the Oilers should even re-sign him, let alone for 3 freaking years.
He plays below replacement.
Let him go.
I still haven't had a chance to see him play to form my own opinion but maybe he's better that LA thought?
ReplyDeleteI hope he's better. He's an Oiler now and I'll cheer for him.
I'd rather be cheering for Voynov or Forbort.
Stauffer is uber biased.
Check out Neal Livingston's game recaps.He's down there watching each game.
JimV,
ReplyDeleteTeubert was also a healthy scratch for game 1 vs the Bulldogs, and was an injury scratch for game 4.
Apparently some kind of shoulder issue.
Fastoil: no way we get that kind of return for Gagner. Until he puts it all together, he's still just a middle offensive talent that's a disaster on FOs and in his own end. He's got the potential for more, to be sure, but that's not realized yet (and thus no better than a new prospect drafted this year).
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to get into that top 4-6 and grab Couturier, it'll cost at least the LA 1st and Hemsky. Even this may not be enough, if the league is beginning to consider Hemsky a chronic injury risk.
FPB: because until 2005 (Fleury was drafted in '03) players didnt become UFAs until they were 32 years old.
ReplyDeleteIt made sense to draft goaltenders pre lockout, post lockout not-so-much.
Montreal still drafted Carey Price, and it wasn't terrible, but as luck would have it, theyd be much better off had they taken Kopitar, whom was expected to go much higher than he did.
A bunch of my friends and I gathered to watch the crosby draft, and the habs fans were stoked that Kopitar was available at 5th. Pissed when they selected Price.
ReplyDeleteBob McKenzie had Montreal taking Kopitar in his 05 mock draft.
ReplyDeleteKopitar + Halak
or
Price + Eller ?
;)
Danny: Well even when your pick is done right you can still miss.
ReplyDelete:P
Couturier will play next year and will produce the same and play better overall than Sam so no loss there. RNH will need a year or two.
ReplyDeleteAlmost zero chance of Couturier being able to do that.
Taylor Hall aside, no player jumping straight from CHL to NHL can take on 2nd toughs (89 had been playing basically 2nd toughs for 2 years)
Kids take time.
Maybe when Couterier is 21 or older, but that's 3 years away,
Cactus
ReplyDeleteMaybe not, but what about - Gagner, non core decent player and LA's 1st?
That's a lot to a hurting team isn't it? And it helps them now, which most teams that suck have to worry about as well.
Couturier for that is a safe and helpful deal IMO. There are too many forwards, Couturier outperforms Gagner from day 1, a late 1st is a long shot pick in a shallow draft.
Fastoil: I personally wouldn't be opposed to such a deal, but I think its likelihood is limited. I like Gagner as a player and given that he's only 21, I think there's still a good chance for him to improve defensively and perhaps generated 60+ points centering a good second line.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, Gagner's trade value is limited because the above is all speculation and chance. Any team trading for Gagner would be acquiring uncertainty, the same as they would in drafting a pick straight up. Yet the new picks are fresh and untested so GMs can hope that their upside is higher.
Unless you can find a crafty GM that has seen something in Gagner's three okay-to-mediocre seasons that gives him greater upside than a C like Couturier, you can't work a deal. At this point, I just don't see it.
Danny: If scouts do have ''the best darts'' how come it took them until M-A Fleury to stop drafting goalies early?
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying they're garbage but just assuming they know best is kinda wably.
This is likely more of an adjustment by GM's. I expect that many of them directed their scouts, not the other way around.
NHL scouts have the hardest job in the scouting community as they are all looking at 17 and 18 yr olds. In the NBA and NFL they are largely dealing with college guys. In baseball they draft 50/50 college/highschool. Plus they sign international guys. If you look at the rate of success of HS players and international signings, its terrible. Its all projection and guys get hurt, eat too much, don't try, get into trouble, just don't improve, etc. etc.
Its real easy to say after the fact "what a bunch of dummies for taking this guy".
If you are so much smarter fpb, why don't you draft the first 3 rounds the day before the draft? In four years we can see who did better.
FPB: Are you talking about the same M-A Fleury who was the hero of Game 7 of the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals? A pretty good argument could be constructed that that pick was bought and paid for that very night. I'm not making it myself, mind, I'm just throwing it out there. That one save off of Lidstrom was his Paul Henderson moment, and all the math in China won't change it.
ReplyDeleteAh, the joy of trying to please pampered millionaires:
ReplyDeleteYou don't want to go to Winnipeg, right?" Bryzgalov told Sun Media on Wednesday. "Not many people live there, not many Russian people there. Plus it's cold. There's no excitement except the hockey.
No park, no entertaining for the families, for the kids. It's going to be tough life for your family."
Bryzgalov, who says he's only been to Winnipeg once or twice during his minor hockey days, figures that if he's going to play in a cold climate it might as well be closer to home, and he likely won't entertain a new contract offer from the club if it moves.
gerbe: talented smurph
Couturier outperforms Gagner from day 1, a late 1st is a long shot pick in a shallow draft.
ReplyDeleteThat's twice you've said that without supporting your theory with evidence or anything else.
Don't you know you have to post opinions with no supporting evidence at least 4 times for them to magically become truth?
Ducey: Gimme the same ressources, and i'l do it.
ReplyDeleteBruce: Yep, I'm talking about that M-A who's only had 1 season where is save% was better than the one of his backup.
A Stanley Cup and you're going on about save percentages and back ups, FPB? My god.
ReplyDeleteDoes Phoenix have a thriving Russian community? Or is there just a bar where drunken Russian goalies like to hang?
ReplyDeleteAn infantile argument, I know, but it is what they play for.
ReplyDeleteI'l do it just for the hell of it.
ReplyDeleteLast year i enhenced Tarasenko, Granlund, Rutkowski and Schwartz, and dissed Niederreiter and Mcylrath.
1. Couturier
2. Huberdeau
3. Strome
4. Larsson
5. RNH
6. Landeskog
7. Hamilton
8. Murphy
9. Phillips
10. Zibanejad
11. Siemens
12. Mcneill
13. Rattie
14. Beaulieu
15. Puempel
16. Bartschi
17. Kohklahchev
18. Oleksiak
19. Prince
20. St-Croix
21. Morrow
22. Bell
23. Grimaldi
24. Catenacci
25. Ouellet
26. Musil
27. Namestnikov
28. Brodin
Can't seem to find interesting guys at that point.
Does Phoenix have a thriving Russian community? Or is there just a bar where drunken Russian goalies like to hang?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that be the same thing
*ducks*
NOTE: I'm 1/8 Russian so I'm allowed to be a bigot.
re: Jones, I'm somewhere in the middle. There's a huge portion of the fanbase that worships the ice he skates on, and are ramping up the pressure on mgt to get something done (with all sorts of GlenX references). I'm not one of those but I'm also not one who just hates the guy like many here seem to. Whatever else, he was one of the most watchable dudes on the team this past year. One of the healthiest, too, on a squad where continuity has been a big problem.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jake 70's point about chaos (the Pigpen comp was classic!), and while his scoring chance numbers were poor he is one guy who I would be keenly interested in a breakdown of Grade A vs. B chances (or 10-cent vs 25-cent, or whatever). One of the big weaknesses of that method is a scoring chance either is or isn't, it's a 1 or a 0, and all things being equal I'll take the scoring chance with the greasy guy hanging around the Smytty Zone blocking the goalie's view and engaging the defenceman and actively looking for if not creating rebounds. Especially if that same guy is also a Breakaway Specialist™! (j.k. on that last part)
Buddy led the team in even strength goals, was at least adequate on the PK, and when finally given a chance on the PP late in the year posted some OK results there too. Nothing overwhelming in any of those, but pretty decent production for a waiver wire pickup who cost south of $1 MM.
At 26 Jones is a pretty good age for a role player. Worth noting that he's already played 176 games in the NHL vs. just 44 in the AHL, so it's not like he's the second coming of Ryan Potulny; at this point I would consider him a proven NHLer, albeit a lower echelon one.
Looking ahead, in an ideal situation he's a fourth line energy/depth guy, one who brings a little versatility and enthusiasm into the mix. Not to mention great hockey hair. I don't mind two years at a working raise, maybe in the $1.25 MM range. Any talk of $1.5 MM plus is certainly an overpay IMO.
"nitistat": hockey math for nitpickers
Spoiler: Idk. Would you take Osgood over Pekka Rinne because Rinne hasn't won a cup?
ReplyDelete(I know he's young but)
re: Jones and sustainability:
ReplyDeleteFirst two (half-)years combined:
1048 minutes, 125 shots, 15 goals, 12.0 Sh%
This year:
1121 minutes, 126 shots, 18 goals, 14.3 Sh%
Riding the percentages a little bit compared to the past, but not that much. Meanwhile, on the assists side of the equation the percentages probably weren't his friend, although too much time with Reddox will do that to anyone.
Gagner was producing at a rate that, last I checked, put him about 45th in the league in scoring for centres. In other words, he is a mid-level second line centre right now. How is that "okay-to-mediocre"? That's pretty successful for a sixth overall pick, and at minimum, promises Gagner will be a useful piece going forward, which says nothing of his top end play. Lots of players take a while to figure out how to play at a dominant level at the NHL, and I think it would be a mark of an inept manager to deal him because you WISHED that he was going to be a bonafide #1 centre within three years.
ReplyDeleteFPB...
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the original point, which is that MAF has already covered his draft position.
I would give Jones another contract, but only if he promises to remove his skate guards before hopping over the boards.
I would give Jones another contract, but only if he promises to remove his skate guards before hopping over the boards.
ReplyDeleteSam Gagner disagrees with that.
Woodguy
ReplyDeleteSorry for not supporting. A rare day off and 4 kids hounding me - nap time.
I perhaps over stated myself. Yet Couturier's NHLE from LT is 14-24-38.
Gagner hit 15-27-42 in his 4th year.
I don't know for sure, but I say it's a safe bet SC hits scoring projections. I don't think it's unreasonable to say a completely dominant junior at face offs and +/- will perform at least as well as a pro who is still poor at both, despite being a rookie.
I say it's a safe bet SC in year one looks pretty similar on paper as SG in year 5. There will be rookie mistakes, but the team won't be dealt a huge blow right off the bat, and will benefit later.
It's the advantage that drafting NHL size players has - a better chance at quicker development. Toews, Duchene, Stamkos, Tavares Etc became effective players sooner rather than later.
Gagner will be good, but he is on the Sedin development plan, and I worry that he will be an easier player to shut down because he isn't fast and he's small. Boland is wreaking havoc on H Sedin, but would the 180 lb Boland do the same if Henrik weighed 210 instead of 190? Could he shut down Backstrom the same way? Maybe, we'll see.
Add in the size and reach, there is a very good chance SC will post similar points, a better FO %, and similar Corsi.
SC doesn't have all of the drawbacks Gagner has that slow his development, perhaps except skating, which is less of an issue when you are so much bigger.
He has the tools that Gagner has - play making and hockey IQ - and that he doesn't have - an NHL shot, strength and reach.
You are much more informed statistically, perhaps you can show me where I'm off target?
Cactus
ReplyDeleteLT feels Gagner is developing well. I am sure a lottery team under attendance pressure would welcome his experience so far and skip the development time for a rookie.
SG likely still has some cache in the league. He has top 6 draft pedigree, skill and smarts and he's 21. There is value in him. He could be a real boon for a team needing a play maker like the Isles, and can perform if supported properly.
Why would I trade him then? RNH needs a complete game second C with size IMO to open the game up for him. Horc will be too old for it. And I think ST will take RNH as the BPA. The Oil love vision.
Woodguy:
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I agree that Couturier will be better than Gagner from day one, but his reported two way prowess might hint that he's closer than one might expect from an 18 year old.
I don't know if there's any concrete "supporting evidence" for that, but he's had two excellent plus minus seasons suggesting elite two way play at the CHL level.
Again, there is no Sedin development curve for Gagner or any other young player.
ReplyDeleteGagner will not see a massive set of rule changes that will open the game up and allow his exact style of play to start thriving. The Sedins got a massive boost that won't be coming to help Gagner.
We should really stop throwing that comparison around.
Bruce: Fair point, but as I told FPB when he brought up the same thing, the past is a small sample size in Jones' case. At some point, you have to ask yourself if you believe that Jones is one of the best finishers in the league - I don't. Ten years from now, if he's kept his shooting percentage consistently at that level, I'll admit that I was wrong. But not over his career so far.
ReplyDeleteAs for Jones, I guess we can pay him whatever we want over the next two years without ill-effect on the team. At this point I wouldn't sign him to a three year deal for anything more than league minimum, though. Seriously.
Oh, and just to bring up something that was greatly enjoyed last time it was discussed, I had a drunken conversation with a Newfoundlander classmate of mine last night, and he assured me that the offensiveness of the word "Newfie" is very much a generational thing. So I'm still going to stop using it, but I'm least reassured that I probably haven't been coming across as a raging bigot over the last few years. Outside of here, anyway.
ReplyDeleteNow what do people think about the election?
SS: Let's not heuhm. Well it didn't go well last time.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, Jones had so few assists and on ice SH%
A propos of nothing, the British national hockey team play Poland tomorrow at 2PM BST (7AM in Alberta). If they win, and Ukraine beat Kazakhstan by no more than three goals later in the afternoon, then Great Britain will play in the top tier of international hockey for the first time in more than 20 years. Details are here:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/ice_hockey/13170428.stm
Check it out if you're up early tomorrow. Go Team GB!
Now what do people think about the election?
ReplyDeleteI think it'll be interesting to see Trump campaign.
As for Canada, well, wake me up in 14 months when we do it again.
Speeds: The American election is so bad it sounds like a highschool election.
ReplyDelete(Well ours is beginning to look like one)
First, here's an honest confession. I was confused today as to why there wasn't a Lowetide broadcast on the Team 1260 at noon--then I realized today's Friday.
ReplyDeleteWhy would I trade him then? RNH needs a complete game second C with size IMO to open the game up for him. Horc will be too old for it. And I think ST will take RNH as the BPA. The Oil love vision.
That's actually a very good point. It sounds like RNH is the man for the Oilers despite concerns raised here about his size, G/A ratio, and ES points.
That's all fine and good, but the end result is likely a great deal of duplication down the middle between Gags and RNH.
What's the scouting on RNH's footspeed, first step, and skating?
Not sure why, but I've worried that RNH is sort of a Gagner 2.0. Obviously that wouldn't be a draft bust, but probably not what you want to grab at #1 overall.
Jonathan Willis reports on excellent work done by Boyd Gordon in the playoffs ..... Winning face-offs, defensive zone starts and PK. Any teams need a relatively cheapUFA .... Mike Peca type?
ReplyDeleteWonder if Oilers have even identified him as filling a HUGE need on this team. ....... 3 years at $5.5 m
CF13...
ReplyDeleteThe Sedins aren't the only examples of sisters buying their first real bra later in life. Marc Savard wasn't a point a game till 25. Development is a marathon not a sprint. The fact that he has three 40 point seasons in his first three years is impressive. Okay, so we know he's not going to be a Diamond (finally... been searching for a way to callback the thread title) but he's still at least a ruby.
WG...
Point taken on Jones. Since it makes no difference to his skating, he should leave on the guards for the safety of everyone on the bench.
A propos nothing, I've listened to this song closely a thousand times, and I still have no idea what the hell's going on (even allowing for the Jack representing more than one person).
ReplyDeleteAmbiguity is the key to most well-written works, in my humble opinion. Movies, too.
ReplyDeletere: Jones and sustainability:
ReplyDeleteFirst two (half-)years combined:
1048 minutes, 125 shots, 15 goals, 12.0 Sh%
This year:
1121 minutes, 126 shots, 18 goals, 14.3 Sh%
Riding the percentages a little bit compared to the past, but not that much. Meanwhile, on the assists side of the equation the percentages probably weren't his friend, although too much time with Reddox will do that to anyone.
I would have to agree with Steve Smith that this is still a fairly small sample size. Andrew Cogliano had a somewhat similar amount of minutes for his first 2 seasons, and here are the results:
2007-2008:
1120 minutes, 98 shots, 18 goals, 18.4% Sh%
2008-2009:
1181 minutes, 116 shots, 18 goals, 15.5 Sh%
And then the next 2 years, his shooting percentage crashed down to 7.2% and 8.5%. So yeah, I'm still a little leery about Jones' numbers.
Fastoil,
ReplyDeleteThat's sounds like a reasonable argument.
Well, more reasonable than "'cause I say so" :)
I agree that Couturier could turn into something good, but I don't get rid of 89 right away. This team lacks good centers and 89 has shown progress. 10 is getting old too.
speeds: I agree which is why I think a draft of Larsson and Couturier is a huge home run. RNH and another top 10 Dman would be good too.
Either way this should be another good draft for the Oilers and the cupboard should be full enough for the Oilers to start filling holes with Real NHL Players and stop hiring players like Jones, Foster and Fraser.
Mr. DeBakey proposes throwing an offer sheet at Frolik.
I think Frolik is a great young player and you can never have too many great young players.
Ryan Jones is but another late 2nd or early third round pick we do not have when the team was deadline day sandbagging it's end of season.
ReplyDeletePretty sure with his stats line on a team like the oil would've cashed for something.
I'm honestly in the two at 2.4 max camp. We've robert nilsson'd and Brule'd our last two passes. I don't like our odds of another possible buy outable contract.
Jones solves nothing longer term. Not that I don't like or cheer for the guy but there will likely be players on waivers at the start of next season for cheaper that I would prefer to hand a dice roll.
What is our current contract count anyways?
ReplyDeleteHopefully the NYI showed them a thing or two about dredging the waiver wire at the start of the year..
What's the scouting on RNH's footspeed, first step, and skating?
ReplyDeleteThumbs up on all three from me. Way faster than Gagner to my eye, hard to compare against different leagues, mind. But he is extremely elusive, separates from opponents nicely, has a sixth sense for where the "good ice" is, and gets there in a hurry.
Jay,
ReplyDeleteI believe the scouts have him rated "above average" in all 3, as I believe they do for Strome and Huberdeau too.
@"Steve Smith"/Noodles: Agreed on Jones' (NHL) sample size. That said, the day we got the guy I looked at his shot rates and goal production and such and thought, hmmm, not bad, I wonder if he can possibly keep that up? ... and he's actually exceeded it to date.
ReplyDeleteHe also has some real nice scoring results in his past: his four years of college he scored 8, 22, 29 and 31 goals, then he started out in the AHL and got 13 goals in 25 games before he got called up by Nashville. So by no means is he a stranger to goal scoring.
Tigers v. Ice on at 7:30 on Shaw.
ReplyDeleteMr. DeBakey proposes throwing an offer sheet at Frolik.
ReplyDeleteNOOOOOOOOOOOO!
We need to make an offer sheet? Is that before or after we trade Hemsky?
The die was cast when Penner was dealt. Its a total rebuild.
Plus Frolik is a averaging about .5 ppg (never more than 45 pts) in his pro career, and doesn't bring grit.
And the second rounder? I'd rather have Pitlick, Marincin or Hamilton. I expect Stu will get someone similar this year.
And isn't Frolik a LWer like Penner?
ReplyDeleteDucey: You prefer a 2nd rounder to a 22 years old 45 points guy who plays solid hockey?
ReplyDeleteJeez.
Czerwonka draws first blood on the first shot of the game.
ReplyDeleteWhat is our current contract count anyways?
ReplyDeleteI think its about 54 (from my count at capgeek). But from that you can subtract some or all of:
Struds (hopefully)
JFJ
Vandermeer
Ondrus
Stewart
Petroit (likely gone)
Pitton (goner)
Bendfeld (goner)
Moran
Giroux
JDD
Gerber
Stortini (he's a goner)
Marquart (gone)
O'Marra
Souray (traded or bought out)
54-16=38.
They will need to add Lander and two AHL goalers at minimum.
Frolik was playing toughs in FLA.
ReplyDeleteHe's also part of the line that has shut down the pisscutter twins this spring.
Great young player.
You can't have enough of those.
Reinhart with a beauty backhander. Two zip Ice.
ReplyDeleteBlogger Woodguy said...
ReplyDelete"Couturier will play next year and will produce the same and play better overall than Sam so no loss there. RNH will need a year or two.
Almost zero chance of Couturier being able to do that."
You've heard of Jeff Skinner and Matt Duchene, right?
And that's just the last two seasons.
Vey gets one back and the Ice answer immediately with a Benoit marker.
ReplyDeletePP goal caroms off Etem into the net. 3-2 Ice.
ReplyDeleteI missed the three Ice goals, but since I tuned in Bunz made three excellent stops to keep the score at 3-1 and keep his team in the game. One of them was a highlight-reel glove grab.
ReplyDeleteI like the way he fills the net.
He's lookin good, Bruce, although he should have been more aware on the first goal by Czerwonka that came off the end boards, since it is his home rink. He challenges shooters very well, almost too much.
ReplyDeleteDSF,
ReplyDelete2 great young players. If the Oilers could do that well, I'm sure we'd all be very happy.
Banking on Couturier winning the Calder is quite the long shot though, especially when one of the knocks on Courtier is skating.
Also,
(min 50 games played)
Skinner Corsi QC this year 7/11
Duchesne Corsi QC rookie year 5/12
Duchesne Corsi QC this year 8/11
Gagner Corsi QC this year 5/9
Gagner Coris QC last year 4/10
I'd trade Gagner straight in a heartbeat for either Duchesne or Skinner, but that doesn't make Gagner a bad player, it makes those others better.
Betting on Courtier to be as good as Skinner and Duchesne is a stretch, even for you when you are espousing your narrative against Gagner or Horcoff.
Spoiler said:
ReplyDeleteI believe the scouts have him rated "above average" in all 3, as I believe they do for Strome and Huberdeau too.
This poster was a bit remiss in his comment. Out of these three, Strome has the least speed per an anonymously quoted scout on Coming Down the Pipe.
Etem and Vey having a sweet game. Tiggers with their first lead of the match.
ReplyDeleteNHL rank for C (via BTN, he misses some players listed as wingers, but its the best we got)
ReplyDeleteMin 50 games played.
5v5 PTS/60
Gagner 39th in NHL w/ 1.91/60
Player ahead of Gagner who are from his draft year or earlier:
Stamkos 2.71
Duchesne 2.49
Skinner 2.39
Turris 2.30
Couture 2.18
Tavares 2.02
Ennis 1.92
I'd trade Gagner straight up for all of those players except Ennis (who had a great night tonight. 2 goals including OT winner)
All of those players listed who had tougher Corsi QC than Gagner:
Gagner 59th w/ .316
Tavares .782 (13th)
That's it.
Gagner may not be an elite talent, but he's a fine young player.
Blogger Woodguy said...
ReplyDeleteDSF,
2 great young players. If the Oilers could do that well, I'm sure we'd all be very happy.
Banking on Couturier winning the Calder is quite the long shot though, especially when one of the knocks on Courtier is skating.
I'm not banking on Courturier doing anything but you've indicated no one can touch Gagner in their rookie season which is just a load of codswallop.
Huburdeau will blow Gagner away in years 1-2-3-4.
Gagner IS Kyle Wellwood.
Book it.
Or ciessesi it.
Your choice
Frolik was playing toughs in FLA.
ReplyDeleteHe's also part of the line that has shut down the pisscutter twins this spring.
Great young player.
You can't have enough of those.
Meh, he had 38 pts in 80 games this year. He played the seventh easiest competition and had the seventh best linemates (I think thats correct - I don't know how BTN handles guys who are traded).
He doesn't excite me but I have not seen him play much. Hopefully he helps beat VCR.
OMG what a goal by Bobby Ryan!!
DSF,
ReplyDeleteI indicated that a rookie C can't walk in and take on 2nd toughs.
Except for Duchesne, no one has lately.
Doesn't make Gagner a bad player.
Huburdeau will blow Gagner away in years 1-2-3-4.
Maybe he does. If he has a good coach he won't play 2nd toughs in his rookie year. If he's part of a decent organization he won't be an 18 year old rookie either.
As for the Wellwood comp, he didn't play a regular shift in the NHL until he was 22. Gagner has 4 years and is 21.
Goal of the playoffs(maybe the entire year) for Bobby Ryan.Kevin Lowe just did a facepalm.
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteMeh, he had 38 pts in 80 games this year. He played the seventh easiest competition and had the seventh best linemates (I think thats correct - I don't know how BTN handles guys who are traded).
I don't know who BTN handles that either.
Derek Zona was doing Scoring chances for the Panthers this year and is in love with the guy.
Last year he was 4/12 Corsi QC and 4/12 Corsi QT as a 22 year old and was 4/12 +/-/60, while scoring around .50pts/gm
He's quality.
Great for the 3rd line and can play up and down the line up.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletewoodyguy: I like your comments. Always make a note of reading them. Kind of reminds me of me a couple years ago when I still cared. Minus the snark.
ReplyDeleteBut you could use some snark.
Validating that Wellwood comment... well, that's undeserved.
Gare Joyce made an interesting comment some while back:
ReplyDeleteAre we seeing a repeat of a draft long past?
Before there was Kelly and Doan there was Wickenheiser (RIP) and Savard. The bitterness in Edmonton can't match the anger that erupted in Montreal after Grundman chose Doug Wickenheiser at number one.
Now Wickenheiser was CHL player of the year and the consensus top pick, but the hometown crowd wanted the hometown favorite when Grundman and Caron stepped up to the mic. And Savard had had an amazing year. They didn't get him.
First game of the year is Chicago at Montreal, Saturday Night on HNIC. The Montreal media has the match-up amped for maximum drama, so Ruel sticks Wickenheiser in the pressbox, a healthy scratch. Savard scores two in his typically spectacular fashion and is named the game's first star and it was all downhill from there. The injury bug didn't help either.
Dave Big Babych was picked between Wickenheiser and Savard, and then a little later Larry Murphy and Paul Coffey were taken.
Babych would go on to a long and lengthy career as a quality player but never really fulfilled the hopes offensively. Coffey would turn out to be the best Dman in a top 8 that would feature 6 defensive picks.
Now if Larsson is Babych (and that might be unfair as it is difficult to quantify the effect the groin injury had on his season), Couturier Wickenheiser, Hamilton Murphy, and Huberdeau and RNH playing the role of Savard types, then we should avoid the desire for the big powerful 1C, take one of the smaller, faster creative centres...
And then find some way to draft Ryan Murphy.
This Medicine Hat crowd is getting full value for their ticket money.
ReplyDeleteCody Eakin with the stiletto between the scapulae.
ReplyDeleteJones basically had the same fluky second half that Ryan Potulny had the season before. And the Oilers should do the same with Jones that they did with Potulny — let him walk, because next year there will be another Jones, another Potulny, who will take his place and become the little engine that could that Oilers fans seem to love.
ReplyDeleteA better Dylan title for Jones: I Don't Believe In You.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to hang out, you got to, bring him out! Ryan Jonessss
ReplyDelete(I know it's Clapton)
An OT winner!! Gotta feel good for the Preds. Hope they give the hometown crowd their first series win.
ReplyDelete"Betting on Courtier to be as good as Skinner and Duchesne is a stretch, even for you when you are espousing your narrative against Gagner or Horcoff.
ReplyDeleteWhen I brought the trade for Couturier thing up , I was betting he'd be "on par" with Gagner his first year, which given Sam's averageness isn't a huge stretch.
For those finding comps for Gagner, please use guys that aren't always hurt, and are proven play off winners.
Vancouver bet the farm on the mellow two, they took forever to develop, and it's looking like those oxen can't pull the plow very far. I think the guy that drove the bus got hurt.
Savard? You're getting scary now. I'll have nightmares.
It worryingly might not be out of the realm of Steve-o's reality to do a Detroit rebuild and try to run two really small centres with "vision", except not noticing the Wings big tough wingers and world's best D man and such little details, or that blind dumb luck isn't really a repeatable formula, or that Sweden is likely going to have a dry spell of generational talent at some point, like the Czechs have.
That was a really long sentence, it must mean I'm smrt.
@spOILer: Yeah, I remember watching that game, it was a Saturday night and it was on CBC French and the other alternative was the Leafs (Oilers had the night off). There was just so much buzz about Savard v. Wickenheiser that I felt compelled to watch, and you are bang on about the important details, esp. Montreal pressboxing their prize rook for the home opener which was absolutely fucking stupid. Well the fans in Montreal were pretty much out-and-out cheering for Savard and when he scored his first NHL goal there was a huge cheer and later he set one up and there was another cheer with a whole lot of derision in it (Montreal fans are unreal that way) and I was thinking Irving Grundman is not long for Montreal. And when Savard got introduced as the game's first star it was one of those standing ovations for a visiting player that Habs fans are rightfully famous for. Quite the unforgettable night for Savard, and Wick and Grundman only wished they could forget it. I know I never will.
ReplyDelete@Slipper: A week late and a few million dollars short, I read the Cogs thread with your challenge to revisit our epic essay contest on shots and Corsi from the Oilers playoff run.
ReplyDeleteNot that I really want to go there, I only want to add two more words which were not yet in the vernacular at that time but which explain a lot: "score effects".
Back to Denis Savard for a minute, just remembered this unreal detail about him which the younger readers likely won't know about. When he played for the Montreal Junior Canadiens - yeah, of all teams - he played on a line called Les Trois Denis which included wingers Denis Cyr and Denis Tremblay. The amazing thing was all trois of them were born on the exact same day, Feb 4 1961! They grew up in the same neighbourhood in Verdun, and were a line for something like 10 or 12 years from boyhood right through junior.
ReplyDeleteSame name, same line, same fucking birthday - one of the more remarkable sets of coincidences I've ever seen.
Thanks Slipper.
ReplyDeleteI hope you owe me money by the end of the year.
FastOil,
Gagner is many things. Average for a 21 year old is not among them.
Bruce... Yes. The cheers. I remember going to bed very happy that night. The Habs Dynasty victories over the Bruins in the late 70s stung deep. And then we kicked their asses in the playoffs. What a way to start and end a year.
ReplyDeleteSeeing the Dynasty collapse after the departure of Pollock and the shutting down of the feeder system was a joy unmatched till Lord Stanley was raised.
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but ISS' Top 30 is out.
ReplyDelete1. Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan F
2. Larsson, Adam, RD
3. Couturier, Sean, C
4. Landeskog, Gabriel, LW
5. Hamilton, Douglas, RD
6. Murphy, Ryan, RD
7. Strome, Ryan, C
8. Huberdeau, Jonathan C/L
9. Zibanejad, Mika, C
10. Armia, Joel, RW
11. Siemens, Duncan, LD
12. Bartschi, Sven, LW
13. Beaulieu, Nathan, LD
14. McNeill, Mark, C
15. Oleksiak, Jamie (Fr.) , LD
There have been some real big movers this year. And while it might not have the top-end of a Crosby or OV, it looks deep. I don't think there's a player in the top 10 that won't have a career.
Gagner is many things. Average for a 21 year old is not among them.
ReplyDeleteOn a PPG basis, Gagner's 21yo season ranked 40th amongst 21yo C in the past 20 years.
His 0.62 ppg nestled him snuggly behind Marleau and Savard at 0.64ppg, and ahead of, amongst others, Kovalev, Koivu, Richards, Lecavalier, Brier, the Sedins, Parise & Kesler.
And I can't imagine that many of the list had the responsibility of centering two rookies.
Getting rid of Gagner now would be on a par with Calgary giving up on Marc Savard in the world of dumbass moves.
Savard was drafted in 95, and was a Ranger until 99. He played two seasons in Calgary before they traded him.
ReplyDeleteGagner will become a much better player, but it's still years away before we can expect anything substantial from Sam.
TSN has the U18s semi final on right now.
ReplyDelete