With all of the discussion surrounding RNH and when he posts crooked numbers (mostly on the PP) I thought it might be a good idea to place all of the top forward prospects on a line. Below is a list of the prospects we`re discussing as possible lottery picks (forwards only) and their even strength numbers during the 10-11 season.
It`s an interesting list:
- Jonathan Huberdeau 67gp, 27-43-70 1.04
- Ryan Strome 65gp, 22-42-64 .985
- Sean Couturier 58gp, 23-32-55 .948
- Gabriel Landeskog 53gp, 24-23-47 .887
- Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 69gp, 20-27-47 .681
What say you?
The thing that jumps out from this list is that it pretty closely matches a ranking of each player's quality of team and, likely, teammates.
ReplyDelete"wheest"
I think Strome might be considered a more one dimensional player at this time. While most of the others, RNH, SC, GL et al get props for sound defensive commitment, Strome is see more of a pure offensive talent.
ReplyDeleteAfter Schremp, I'm leery of players who emerge from nowhere who play on "stacked" teams.
ReplyDeleteRyan N-H was a top draft pick as a (midget?), I like players who were always good.
PS: Now I read that Larsson also wants to join the Oilers. Isn't there any way we can draft both of them?
PS: I know Schremp was a prodigy, but all the same he's trailer trash from NY, and fails the Canadian back bacon test.
ReplyDeleteHunter...where did you read that Larsson wants to don the oil drop?
ReplyDeletesubtip - the area beneath the tip?
Red Deer finished as a 2nd seed. Idk why people keep on rambling RNH had no one to play with.
ReplyDeleteCouturier, Strome and Landeskog all played on weaker or equal teams.
Couturier seems heavily brought down by his SH production.
ReplyDeleteHunter has said it and others must be thinking it as well, but both Huberdeau and Nugent remind me of Schremp. Each for their own reasons. RNH seems to need the extra ice to shine offensively and Huberdeau being on the stacked team. I guess the real question with Huberdeau is, is he the Schremp or the Perry from that team?
ReplyDeletesecks - sex so bland it doesn't even warrant one "x"
Can you please explain to me why it is such a bad thing for a prospect to obtain many of their points on the PP? Everyone talks about how important it is to have stong special teams in the NHL and I know the Oilers definitely need help improving their PP. I have watched RNH and he is incredible on the PP. He runs it incredibly well and I think he could be a great addition to the Oilers and more specifically their PP...
ReplyDeleteHere's a list of ES P/60 for this years NHL regulars (30 games) with no context:
ReplyDeleteCrosby
Sedin
Hemsky
Nash
Sedin
Briere
Burrows
Krejci
St. Louis
If you were drafting using this criteria, you'd make the right first pick and a great second pick, but you wouldn't pick Stamkos.
You'd also get screwed by picking Briere and Burrows instead of, say. Ovechkin.
If you were to go by ES G/60 the 2nd and third picks would be Briere and Burrows.
And note, we only have P/game and G/game, which will be less reliable than P/60, because we don't know how much TOI someone is getting to run up their point totals.
I'm not saying that we should draft RNH, but team effects, and SH% mean so, so, so much in one year of boxcars, you have to take them with a grain of salt. (And RNH did go a month without a goal, there could be some cazy bad, unluck SH% involved there.)
We need scoring chances, SH%, TOI to make stats more reliable. Without that, objectively observable factors like size, skating, and injuries should become a bigger factor in evaluation.
woody: google LARSSON/OILERS...there is a Jim Matheson article.
ReplyDeleteIt's driving me crazy - I want both Larsson and R N-H. How's about they trade next year's pick with the Avs 1st?
After all, Oilers might well be there in 1st next year - so it's an excellent bet for the Avs, and an unreal situation for the OIlers - grabbing the top two prospects in 1 season.
Do it Tambo!
PS: I understand why all these young dudes want to come to Edmonton. Unlike the Prongers with their bleached blonde Ryder cup style golf wives, the young guys just want the team that affords them the best opportunity to play, and fast.
Just look at Seguin: A one hit wonder last season, now struggling to make the Bruins lineup(and no, this isn't a Stanley cup contender).
Bobby Orr himself(the gold standard) chose Boston aged 14, simply because he reckoned that he would have the best opportunity to crack the lineup in a hurry.
@kris:
ReplyDeleteThe PP stats are clearly being used to judge whether junior players have the gumption to produce at EVs in the NHL. To compare them to established NHLers who have set PP units is a bit unfair because most often on a junior team there is only one or two big stars who get all the ice time on the PP.
I feel as if the ES/60 stat is kind of useful for junior players because you can tell how the coach is using that player as well. By the way, this list LT put up also shows that if Landeskog hadn't gotten hurt his EVs would have been enough to show that he's not an offensive black hole that people think he is.
@LT: Larsson might want to play here but I want to draft a forward!
Same list Kris did, but for 09/10
ReplyDeleteD Sedin
H Sedin
Ovechkin
Crosby
Semin
Backstrom
Kovalchuk
Gaborik
C. Stewart
Wolski
Thornton
Eriksson
Elias
Fehr
08/09
Brassard
Borque
Semin
Malkin
Crosby
Savard
D Sedin
Krejci
Parise
Datsyuk
Havlat
Ovechkin
Kessel
H Sedin
Hossa
Ponikarosky
Conroy
Langenbrunner
One year sample sizes make you realize how fickle stats can be.
They guys who are in all 3 lists are obviously the cream.
I like what Hunter said here:
"Ryan N-H was a top draft pick as a (midget?), I like players who were always good."
A history of kicking ass is a good thing.
I'd like to see something like LA 1st, Edm. 1st 2012, and X (maybe a 3rd or mid-prospect like chorney) for Col 1st 2011. Value for both teams
ReplyDeleteI think one of the reasons they all want to don the oil colors is the fact that they will then be drafted 1st overall
ReplyDelete@Woodguy: Likewise with kris' comment, for the top players in the NHL the PP/ES ratio is not that effective because they are established players playing on established lines. It still paints a picture of where the coach is using the player.
ReplyDeleteIn junior, the player might be on the PP because they are dominant offensively.
In the NHL, being a PP specialist is a narrow definition (the Rob Schremps and Marc-Andre Bergerons) of a player.
It doesn't apply to all players on the list, but it does explain why there are funny names on the NHL list and not on the juniors list.
What the PP/ES ratio does is not show who isn't ready to produce at ES in the NHL (because that's not what it is doing) but it does show who is not getting the extra benefit of PP time on their team, whether due to quality of teammates or otherwise...
Huberdeau is this year's Seguin I think, since they both kind of came out of nowhere. But he seems more consistent and is a power forward to boot, something Seguin is not.
Of course they want to be drafred 1st. It's the way their lives are wired.
ReplyDeleteBut, the things Ryan N-H and now Larsson say about the Oilers, proves at least to my pea-sized brain that they are sincere in their desire to play here.
Seguin(a player I irrationally despise) never showed me anything but a collection of media coached bullshit.
And also, Huberdeau might be no Taylor Hall (two time Memorial Cup MVP) but I don't think he's feeding off his teammates as much as people seem to suggest. Watch some of his YouTube videos (I know, some scouting report that is!) but it seems he gets most of his chances from driving the net himself.
ReplyDeleteMZU:
ReplyDeleteHere's Huberdeau's line:
Huberdeau (105), Phillips (95) and Galiev (65).
The other kid not on the line is down to 82 points (20 years old kirkpatrick)
He's definitly driving his bus.
Hunter1909:
ReplyDeleteIn Schremp's draft year, he was 4th in team scoring, just shy of 40 points behind Perry on the season (Schremp played a couple games with another OHL team before getting traded to LDN).
Huberdeau led his team in scoring by 10 points, was 23 points ahead of the guy in 3rd and 40 points ahead of the guy in 4th.
Strome also lead his team in scoring, and was 23, 32, and 40 points ahead of the players 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in team scoring.
anyone know how RNH compares to Kyle Turris in his draft year? I seem to recall the Oilers being very high on Turris in 08'.
ReplyDeleteThey have similar body types from my recollection. Do they compare as propects?
@FPB: On top of that, looking at the year-to-year stats, it seems like everyone on that team got better EXCEPT Galiev and Kirkpatrick, who have the pretty much the same production as last year.
ReplyDeleteThe Bruins have an actual team, that's much deeper in NHL players than the Oilers can hope to be at this point in time.
ReplyDeleteIf Seguin was on the Oilers, they'd be every chance that he'd be their best centre, although that isn't saying much.
I'd still want Hall over Seguin, but being behind Krejci, Bergeron, Marchand in the depth chart as a 18 year old isn't even remotely a bad thing.
I'm in the Larsson camp, I'm just very disappointed that he didn't have a season full of excuses, that way he'd either dominate or clearly come up short. Really wish someone had just come out of the game and screamed I'm the de facto #1.
Of course Larsson wants to come to the Oilers. He wants to be 1st overall. Other than that, with Paajarvi, Omark, and likely Lander coming over, it's starting to look pretty Nordic. They're not quite in Detroit territory but they're getting there. Toss in Motin and the Finn and you've got the makings of a very homey team for a Swede.
I'm all for it, more Scandinavians please, and I'm okay with them brining their women too.
woah, is hunter is awake and drunk? at least you acknowledge that your hate for seguin is irrational. kid is going to be a beauty.
ReplyDeletei can't find gagner's PP totals for his junior year, but 20 of his 35 goals that year were on the PP...how many of the assists? RNH reminds me of him. i don't need another little handsy guy whose top end doesn't translate to the show
speeds: with respect, Huberdeau/Strome aren't part of my 1st overall pick dreamland scenario. Of course, either of them could turn out to be the new Rocket Richard, and make me look a fool(nothing new here).
ReplyDeleteMy limited brain says it's either Larsson/Nugent-Hopkins. I doubt if anyone thinks poorly of a 30th place team drafting the not perfectly right player either.
What terrifies me, is any/all talk of trading down, in a vain attempt to try to look 'clever'. Clever? The Oilers? The 30th place team for the past 2 years running, with an excellent chance of returning to the basement next season?
I can stand a lousy team that gives me hope. What I can't stand is a terrible team, that throws away it's only hope for some kind of idiotic...ah, I'm not even working until Monday. I'm off to the bar.
PS: I always liked the idea of being a fan of a seriously terrible team. a team so fucked up, that all they can do is pick up the best young players, and, inside 4-5 seasons suddenly emerge like a collossus. Therefore, I'm 100% behind this situation, haha.
These numbers make me like Landeskog more - which is where I was back in February.
ReplyDeleteHe has finish and this is a team that needs goal scorers (to continue from yesterday's thread).
Am extremely leary of RNH - despite all the nice things scouts say about him.
And I would not be shocked if we traded down out of #1 in order to get a better pick later in the first round because there is not a Hall, Tavares or Stamkos at the top of this draft.
The Bruins, and actual team? Pleeease.
ReplyDeleteHow about for the other side to that argument - a team that hasn't won the cup since most of us were even born. How about a team that "contends' then drops up and down, always teasing their fans, never winning shit.
And as for Seguin - Bruins fans see a young kid getting the shaft. They see a young player who, starting the season fairly well, suddenly collapsed, under the pressures of getting hit by grown men(another reason to leave these kids down until they're old enough), and a young kid who now plays scared.
They blame Julien in the exact way I used to blame MacT - coaches who don't like young kids. Bruins are going nowhere. They're not going to win the cup. They're just going to show up for the playoffs another few seasons, get bounced by this team or that, then who knows, and who cares.
@hunter: Agreed on most counts except that I don't think there is a clear cut between the top 5 this year.
ReplyDeleteHell, any of those guys could be NHL regulars, or even by franchise blocks to build around.
RNH - People call him a Sakic type
Larsson - Apparently his ceiling is franchise D-man
Landeskog - Leadership abound
Couturier - Big Center with skill
Huberdeau - Big Center with skill
and I haven't even gotten to Strome and the other yet!
I think it might be one of those years like 2003 or 2009 where everyone (but Zherdev) is a pretty good choice.
I admit to disliking Seguin's style leading up to the draft last year. I found his little jokes pretentious rather than precocious as they were being heralded. We all heard endlessly about Seguin's big brain. His attitude seemed entirely dishonest. The Oil Change episode also showed him with that smug grin on his face and cracking simple jokes, and repeating carefully rehearsed phrases at chez Katz. He brushed off Katz kid. His whole approach reeked of entitlement. At what is essentially a job interview with the big wigs holding the number one pick, I found this behaviour unusual and distasteful. Compare that to Hall. No jokes. A little bit nervous. Desire oozing from every word. At Katz place for dinner, nothing but honest respect for all the bosses including their afro-laden children.
ReplyDeleteCall it female intuition, but I have met my share of silver tounged Seguin's in my lifetime, and they are never the real deal. You bring them home, and dad immediately hates them because of their casual disrespectful manner and inappropriate attempts at humour. You bring a guy like Hall home to meet your parents, and by 9PM Taylor and dad are out on the deck smoking a cigar and drinking cognac together.
I had a hard time deciding if this was because he was coached too much, and maybe was a normal guy underneath, or if he really was kind of a loser. I also had a hard time considering his hockey skills separate from all of this.
Maybe it's just me.
Isn't there a realistic scenario possible where we wind up with Landeskog and Hamilton?
ReplyDeleteThe supposed prestige of first means nothing to me. Get championship building blocks. Those two seem that way. 3+7-ish works out better than 1 and 23 or something doesn't it? (unless Jordan Eberle #2 is floating around I guess)
Also, who wouldn't hate having to face a line featuring both Landeskog and Hartikainen?
@LMHF: I'm of the belief the Oilers will not regret drafting Landeskog instead of trading down, although all players are pretty good. I'd almost trade Hemsky to move up and sign UFA stopgaps until we can compete (assuming they want to sign for 1 or 2 year deals to play on a crappy rebuilding team).
ReplyDeleteLandeskog + Huberdeau!
I can only dream of the havoc they would wreck.
Ashley: Will you marry me?
ReplyDeleteRT 40,
ReplyDelete1. My point is that ES boxcars (with no context like SH%, qual comp., scoring chances) are volatile from year to year in the NHL and thus are ths not always the best judge of who the best player is.
2. Wouldn't ES numbers in junior be even more volatile. At the NHL level goalies are pretty comparable. Not so in junior. In junior Qual comp. should matter more if -as is reasonable- there is a greater difference in quality of player between the best and the worst player in junior than in the NHL. (The NHL now has a lot of parity, really. while in junior, line matching a good player against 4th liners from some other team is going to make a huge, huge difference in ES offense.) So team effects on offense are going to big, and SH% might even be more volatile depending on the quality of opponents goaltenders.
One thing we can do to fix all this is to compare each players ES offense as a share of team offense.
But without SH% or chances for and against, looking at ES boxcars is pissing in the wind. (Think Ryan Jones.)
lol @ Hunter
ReplyDeleteA bit early in the morning for proposals isn't it? No candlelit exchange of saliva for this straight shooter! ;-)
@kris: Which was my point, that looking at the NHL as a comparison for junior players, is kind of pointless due to the parity.
ReplyDeleteIn junior most of the good players are UNQUESTIONABLY the best players due to lack of parity. So their production is a great indication of how the coach is using them, but not a reliable indication of how they will produce at the NHL level.
However, it does show that certain players are getting a boost on the PP where others are producing at high level without it.
And plus, what use are SH numbers from the juniors, anyway? Not everyone is Brad Marchand.
Sorry, in that last post I didn't mean all production, just PP production.
ReplyDeleteJust to be clear.
I do put some weight on NHLE's.
Of course, that's not to say big differences in ES offense tell us nothing. But we have to look at team effects at least. And if all scouts say RNH has all the objectively observable attributes -decent size, (though not weight), great skating, good shot- then we have to accept that he might be the victim of a low SH% for a long stretch of the season.
ReplyDeleteRT 40,
ReplyDeleteDo you accept that ES boxcars without context should be less reliable than they are in the NHL (which is already unreliable)?
@kris: The better question is, is it a low SH% or a tendency not to shoot?
ReplyDeleteI mean, they rave about how nice his wrist shot is, but my buddy who has been going a lot to the games says RNH is amazing but doesn't shoot enough when he gets the chance.
This is second-hand of course but that's a bit worrying that a guy who spends a lot of the time on the PP doesn't shoot enough.
What context could be more useful from junior than in the NHL? Just because RNH's linemates had better ES doesn't make them better players, if that's what you mean.
ReplyDeleteBut I think the ratio (something rickibear was talking about) is important to observe, not the total amount (or net amount).
There are two possibilities here (is this the context you're looking for? :-) )
1. RNH is so dominant, it wouldn't make sense to use someone else on the PP
2. The rest of the team is so unreliable, it wouldn't make sense to use someone else on the PP
I don't think that the #3 option, RNH can't produce at ES is a real possibility. But I do think that does show a few other things:
1. the other top prospects either have better support on their team, or are less dominant than RNH in their respective leagues
2. they are pretty good at producing WITHOUT the man advantage
These are all arrows for and against RNH. This is a tough year for BPA. Might have to draft for need in 2011!
No math in this analysis, just armchair analysis.
Another knock on RNH: He doesn't contribute AT ALL on the PK.
ReplyDeleteToo many red flags for me.
RT40,
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'm following you. but that's probably me being stupid, as usual.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletespeeds: with respect, Huberdeau/Strome aren't part of my 1st overall pick dreamland scenario. Of course, either of them could turn out to be the new Rocket Richard, and make me look a fool(nothing new here).
ReplyDeleteMy limited brain says it's either Larsson/Nugent-Hopkins. I doubt if anyone thinks poorly of a 30th place team drafting the not perfectly right player either.
Maybe they are in the conversation, maybe they aren't. Strome and RNH's numbers are pretty comparable comparable (although their are ES/PP differences).
My point was that it isn't fair to say you aren't interested in guys from stacked teams, implying Strome and Huberdeau, because of Schremp. Maybe one could argue that Schremp was riding coattails, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Strome and Huberdeau; I doubt it hurt their numbers to be on good teams. But, to me, it's different when you're the one leading the powerhouse team (Huberdeau and Strome) vs. being a useful and contributing member (Schremp), but not the focal point. Of course, that in itself doesnt mean those guys are #1 picks, I'm just saying they look to be better prospects than Schremp at the time of his draft.
Earlier, you wrote:
Ryan N-H was a top draft pick as a (midget?), I like players who were always good.
For the sake of comparison, Couturier went #2 in his draft (Gormely was #1), Strome went 8th, Huberdeau went 18th BUT I remember reading that there was a lot of controversy about that pick. Supposedly he was a top 3-5 player in that draft (maybe even THE best player, I don't recall specifically), but one that was going to go to the NCAA. After being drafted later, he went to St. John. Those details may well be inaccurate so if I'm mistaken, someone please correct me, I'm going off memory there.
@kris: Maybe I'm not making sense because I've been up all night. I'll try rephrasing it later.
ReplyDelete@speeds: By far, you are correct. Huberdeau is carrying that team.
ReplyDeleteHunter,
ReplyDeleteAre you sure that's a good idea? Instead of periodically discussing things here at LT's place, LT's place would become our lives; Hemsky's trade value over breakfast, Tambellini's ineptitude over dinner, and the relative merits of drafting RNH vs Huberdeau vs Larsson before bed. Not to mention that when it's time to go our separate ways, I'm not sure differing opinions on the value of Horcoff's contract would be considered irreconcilable differences in the court of law.
Please don't even talk about Sean Couturier. He CAN'T SKATE! If you CAN'T SKATE, you CAN'T PLAY ON MY TEAM!
ReplyDeleteNext, with respect to Strome, I am going to see him this weekend in Mississauga to get a better idea of what he brings to the table. From what I know thusfar, a great comparison would be Jarret Stoll. Think of a Stoll with much more offensive talent and creativity. Strome does need work of the defensive side of things, but that will come. I would rank him in the top 5-7 in this draft, and he has the potential to be a #1 Centre in the NHL.
Huberdeau - I like this kid a lot. I was telling everyone how good he is BEFORE anyone even knew who he was! Anyhow, he is more of a complete player with a high hockey IQ. Top 5 pick for sure! Again, another #1 Centre candidate.
Who should we pick #1 overall? I have always said it should be Hopkins, but if we took Larssen, we still win. Either one will be a phenomenal player. The question is, do you want a Gretzky at forward or on defence (so to speak)?
In my opinion, I feel that we should try and get another Top 5 pick so we can get the Defenseman and Centre that we so badly need. There is no real right answer, but if I was Tambellini I would do whatever it takes to make a package deal with any team drafting 2-5. Package our second #1 pick + Hemsky + another pick + prospect to get BOTH players we want. It would be a huge price to pay, but just remember what Tambellini said about now we have the assets/flexibility to move people to upgrade the talent when the opportunity presents itself. You need to get creative as a GM.
Cheers.
Are you sure that's a good idea? Instead of periodically discussing things here at LT's place, LT's place would become our lives; Hemsky's trade value over breakfast, Tambellini's ineptitude over dinner, and the relative merits of drafting RNH vs Huberdeau vs Larsson before bed. Not to mention that when it's time to go our separate ways, I'm not sure differing opinions on the value of Horcoff's contract would be considered irreconcilable differences in the court of law.
ReplyDeleteThere are many kinds of awesome in this.
Well done.
Ashley: For you darling, I'm prepared to do anything for.
ReplyDeleteHorcoff valuations? If you only were to say yes, I promise never to mention that contract so long as we live.
:-*
I'm not sure what's more epic about this thread - the proposal, the rebuttal, or the counter-proposal?
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to imagine the vows... "...for richer or poorer, as long as you both bleed copper and blue?"
Speeds you are right about the Huberdeau thing. And it seems it is going to bite them in the ass when they try to secure a memorial cup hosting
ReplyDeleteAshley you are hilarious.
ReplyDeleteLT, the QMJHL website disagrees with your numbers for Couturier and Huberdeau.
ReplyDeleteCouturier 23-32-55 .948
Huberdeau 27-43-70 1.045
(I gleaned the EV number by taking their totals and subtracting PP and SH numbers).
This puts Huberdeau a mile ahead of the other four, and Couturier in third right behind Strome.
By the way, I've actually broken out the EV/PP/SH numbers for every CHL forward in Bob McKenzie's top 60 (there's 27 of them). If anyone wants a copy, it's here.
Top CHL EV forward in Bob McKenzie's top 60, in terms of EV PPG? Shane Prince at 1.068. The average EV PPG of the 27 CHL forwards is .725. RNH is well below.
Ashley, if you continue with this wit and charm, you may end up vuried under a bevy of beaus on this site... just sayin'
ReplyDeleteNice to meet someone who weilds a rapier sharp repartee. Intelligence is sooo appealing. It's why I chose my wondeful wife, after all..
Taking a closer look at the numbers shows Landeskog as the best EV goal scorer - by a pretty good margin.
ReplyDeleteGoals/Game
Strome 65gp, 0.34
Landeskog 53gp, 0.45
Huberdeau 67gp, 0.40
Couturier 58gp, 0.33
Hopkins 69gp, 0.29
If I could find the data, I'd like to see how EV Goal/Game predicts success at an NHL level.
hunter1909 said...
ReplyDeleteAshley: For you darling, I'm prepared to do anything for.
Horcoff valuations? If you only were to say yes, I promise never to mention that contract so long as we live.
Hunter...I must say I am so disappointed you would willingly surrender your manhood for the erstwhile companionship of a winsome lass.
Please note she has already set you up for her departure ("when it's time to go our separate ways")
I fear your time together will be superseded by the length of Horcoff's contract.
And,then where will you be?
Really.
rob: Which of the following are true?
ReplyDeleteA.) Daniel Sedin had skating issues when he was younger.
B.)Corey Perry had questions marks about his skating.
C.) Jordan Eberle also had (and still does have) skating concerns.
D.)Couturier can do everything Hopkins can do, but he's been doing it longer and he's bigger.
E.)RNH is 164 pounds and not Wayne Gretzky.
F.)All of the above.
RE: Huberdeau and the "Stacked Team" excuse.
ReplyDeleteTaylor Hall was the leading scorer on a considerably more stacked team (imho).
Patrick Kane, same thing.
I don't get the argument that the leading scorer on a stacked team is somehow inflated in value.
Saint John is a stacked team, in large part, because of Huberdeau.
@ Hunter:
ReplyDeleteRE: Ashley
Just to remind you and everyone else. There are no women on the internet. There is about a %78 chance that Ashley is actually Bob Stauffer.
For fpb,
ReplyDeleteHere is some rambling about RNH and his playmates. The Rebels finished second because other teams couldn’t score on them (don’t you remember saying their league leading GAA was totally because of excellent goaltending?), not because they were an offensive juggernaut.
RNH’s usual line:
(106) - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, (82) - Andrew Kudrna, (61) – John Persson
Everyone else that scored 50 or more points on the Rebels has about a year or more on RNH. They are all decent enough players, but not ones who are going to inflate your point totals.
-
For hunter1909,
You certainly have a valid point about the risks if the Oilers try to get cute and “trade down.” That is a bag full of magic beans that we don’t want to see. Not even if the Sam Pollock’s ghost took possession of Steve Tambellini on draft day.
And yes, RNH was drafted first overall in the 2008 WHL Bantam draft by Red Deer.
-
For the record, I like Landeskog as a player. This team needs somebody like him badly, and while Hartikainen brings a power forward game, Landeskog is likely going to be a higher end version. With Hemsky being predicted to be on the shopping/chopping block, the RW side could use some depth.
However, the middle is still a weak link. I would have no problem with Couturier to fill that hole. What’s not to like about the guy, size, scoring, defensive awareness, face-offs? He has it all. I just hate to pass on a guy like RNH, whom of all the choices, seems to have the skills and desire necessary to be an elite level player.
Hall/Nugent-Hopkins/Eberle – by 2014, this line could score a goal or two.
@Clay: I agree for the most part but it depends on who's driving the bus. In this case, Huberdeau is clearly driving the bus. In the case of Rob Schremp and Sam Gagner, arguments can be made that they were riding shotgun.
ReplyDeleteRed Deer finished as a 2nd seed. Idk why people keep on rambling RNH had no one to play with.
ReplyDeleteOn the back of strong defensive play and goaltending. Their GF was near league average. "IDK" how you can confuse the offensive and defensive side of the game. Clearly my comments reference the offensive strength of the teams involved. My suspicion is that you knew this but chose to state your comment in that way for another reason.
@raventalon
ReplyDeleteI don't think Gagner and Schremp are in the same category, because they were not the leading scorers on their team (at least not in their draft years).
Huberdeau plays about 20 min per game. So, yes, he's on a stacked team, but he might have a bit less ice time than the other top players from the draft.
ReplyDelete(From the mouth of his coach, Gerard Gallant: "Ses statistiques pourraient même être encore meilleures parce que je ne le surutilise pas. Nous avons un bon club et j'emploie mes quatre trios régulièrement. Il joue en moyenne 20 minutes par match, pas beaucoup plus", which roughly means that he believes Huberdeau could have better stats if he didn't regularly used his four lines and thus played Huberdeau for more than 20 min per game. Source: http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/lhjmq/201102/24/01-4373432-sean-couturier-ou-jonathan-huberdeau.php).
Better teammates should inflate the numbers of player X regardless of whether player X is the best player or not. No?
ReplyDeleteI don't get this business about team effects not mattering as much when we're looking at the best player on the team.
---
I don't know. I'm not an RNH booster, but I really, really wish we had SH%'s or chances. Context might make RNH look worse. Couturier, Huberdeau, and Strome all scare me too. When scouts all agree on something, you can't discount it.
I am scared of what we're going to get no matter who we choose. Fingers crossed.
Jon K: Absolutely not.
ReplyDeleteLook at how Huberdeau's and Couturier's linemates compares with RNH's.
(106) - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, (82) - Andrew Kudrna, (61) – John Persson
Huberdeau (105), Phillips (95) and Galiev (65).
Couturier (96), Palat (96), Brunelle (51).
Ain't that big of a difference.
Kris: Scouts all agree on shit that doesn't work out all the time.
ReplyDeleteThey got theyr hit and misses, but I think it would be a bit silly to just debalance every statistical evidence just for that.
Another way of looking at the EV production numbers is to calculate how much a of a given player's numbers were scored at EV.
ReplyDeleteThe five players in question:
Landeskog: 71.21%
Huberdeau: 66.67%
Strome: 60.38%
Couturier: 57.29%
RNH: 44.34%
If you add EV+SH points:
Landeskog: 72.73%
Huberdeau: 71.43%
Couturier: 65.63%
Strome: 62.26%
RNH: 44.34%
The average amongst the CHL forwards in McKenzie's top 60 at EV: 63.26%. Average EV+SH: 66.68%
And, of note, RNH ranks last among CHL forwards in McKenzie's top 60 in both these categories.
Also of note, Couturier went 4-4-8 shorthanded. How does an ankle-skater produce so much on the PK?
I think Couturier has as good a chance as anyone to be the best player from this draft class.
I'm more concerned with the goals to assists ration than I am about the EV to PP ratio.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure EV to PP can tell us a whole helluva lot other than usage, as RT has pointed out.
But the goals to assists ration indicate what kind of contributor the player is: does he set up plays or finish them?
Elite finishers seem a lot harder to find than elite playmakers. I'd rather have more of a goal scorer than an assist generator with the 1st overall.
RNH's last two years of Jr his ratio of goals to points was 37% and 29%. 33% in limited action the first year. Unfortuntely, as LT is wont to say, keeping stats like shot totals would bring about the Apocalypse, so our picture of Jr. players is seriously adumbrated.
Hub's ratios were 43% this year and 43% last year.
Although our stats are pretty sketchy, can we say that The Hoob has shown more consistent goal-scoring ability thus far?
Hmm, I always thought Ashley was a dude. Maybe I'm thinking of Alice.
ReplyDeleteCareful Hunter you may end up with a Crying Game moment. ;)
I keed I keed.
Spoiler: Absolutely.
ReplyDeleteHuberdeau's on fire in the playoffs. 21 points in 9 games.
Anyone else thinks the Oilers SHOULD take a flyer in the 2nd-3rd round on the FIRST! (Yes the first)
ReplyDeleteAfro-Finnish goaltender!
Christopher Gibson altough injured kept a great ,920 save% in 37. Which is exeptional for the Q.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLCV6GG4qwY
If FBV had his way we'd only draft from the Q.
ReplyDeleteI think the stats we have basically leave us in the position of not having a clear #1 by stats alone (and by stats alone I mean stats interpreted wisely, controlling for context etc.), and all this draft speculation continually reinforces that notion. Insofar as scouting league wide has actually been quite good (as LT often notes, they consistently pick most of the best players in the first round), I'd defer to scouts' "subjective" assessments.
Just make sure RNH isn't a big kart racing guy.
Steve: Whew - we got the first pick again. Okay, guys what's next.
ReplyDeleteStu: Well, here are the scouting reports.
Steve: Okay, so who's the best?
Stu: It's not that simple this year Steve - there isn't one amaizing player to choose like last year.
Steve: Okay.... so who should I pick.
Stu: ... It would probably be best to look at one of these seven or eight players here... (and hands him some files)
Steve: You want me to choose? Oh jeeze, Stu. I don't know...
Kevin: Look, Steve, it's easy - just wait until one of their teams wins the Memorial Cup, and then pick that team's best player. It's all about picking winners here in Edmonton!
Stu: That would ignore some really good players. We need to look at...
Kevin: Hey Steve, want to help me shine my Cup Rings?
Steve: Oh Boy! Do I ever!
Kevin: Come on, lets go get my favourite rag from Joey...
Steve: Thanks Kevin - Stu almost tried to make me make a decision...
Kevin: Don't worry Steve - I'm here to keep you safe.
Steve: *contented sigh*
Stu: ...I wonder if Fraser still knows that guy with a Villa for sale...
Gogliano: Or not. JW made a search where some draft, just taking guys who had more points had more success than scouts rankings.
ReplyDeleteA little bit of both.
(As for the goalie, it's a joke)
Clay: I think it's a bit much to compare Hall's success on a stacked team to Huberdeau. The with Hall, there was a proven record of success over two seasons, with two Memorial Cup MVPs. Huberdeau, by comparison has one notable year under his belt. He may be the guy, but I think the "elite team" concerns certainly can't be dismissed as they were with Hall.
ReplyDeleteI do think your point about Couturier's SH points is a good one though. Until I get a better understanding regarding why the scouts seem down on his skating, I'm more inclined to believe it's a case of familiarity breeding contempt.
Cactus: The big thing defending Huberdeau, is even if he's on a big team, he's well clear of all the other players on the club.
ReplyDeleteHmm, I always thought Ashley was a dude. Maybe I'm thinking of Alice.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking exactly the same thing, and now I am thinking exactly the same thing.
Jordan: Hilarious. But why would Stu be seeking guidance from Tambellini? I'd think he'd value every bit of freedom he could get.
Rob: We already made a meme out of that "you can't play on my team" thing. You need new material.
On the draft, the only to prospects I've paid close attention to are RNH and Larsson, and I've got serious reservations about both. That kind of puts me in the Couturier camp by default, though I basically know nothing about him other than he's got size and HE CAN'T SKATE AND HE CAN'T PLAY ON ROB'S TEAM.
Jon k: I just finished law school (unless my prof does something unreasonable with my paper, like read it and mark it against the standard of a competently-written paper) and am now going out drinking (saying my farewells to Picaroon's - the best of New Brunswick's three real breweries, and the only one not available in Alberta - and more specifically their aptly named Man's Best Friend porter). Please leave your phone number here that I might drunk dial you when I get home, per our arrangement. And please do it soon, because I can't see myself making it past 7 pm Atlantic.
Actually, sorry, I didn't read very carefully: Rob's already given us new material.
ReplyDeleteHe was into Huberdeau when Huberdeau was still underground.
He drafts really obscure prospects; you've probably never heard of them.
SS: Kenta Nilsson, the ultimate hipster.
ReplyDeleteFPB, I don't know if it's just my fatigue and elation, but that was fucking hilarious.
ReplyDelete(And I really am going out drinking right away, but I'm eating something first, because I just remembered that I don't think I've done so in the last twenty-four hours. In case you're wondering why I'm still here.)
Poing!
I was trying to imply Stu walking Steve through his job as GM - the implication of most of the conversation that Steve has no idea what he's doing, that he's getting some good advice from one person and some questionable advice from another.
ReplyDeleteLike trying to teach an insecure child how to think for themselves.
Guess it needs some work...
Draft-wise, If the Oilers can get 2 of the top 10 players Lowetide lists on ON, I think this draft is a huge win. All of them fill holes or potential holes. Don't much care how it happens, but as much as people here dislike magic beans... its a lot easier to get lucky with them if you have some to plant.
Just Saying.
I suspect most people are well aware of what I think of management and scouting after my last post, so I'm all for more bullets - Whether he's good or he's lucky, Stu might as well be named Midas right now. Why the hell wouldn't you go with it?
Using a simple (not using actual missed game team goal data) averaged player point per game / team goals per game the results are;
ReplyDelete1) Couturier @ approx 46%
2) RNH @ approx 41%
3) Huberdeau @ approx 31%
These numbers don't mean much by themselves in terms of the players, but it does indicate that
Couturier and RNH were at least counted on for a larger share of their respective team offense than Huberdeau.
The main concern about guys racking up points in the shadows of great players is who they are doing it againts. For these guys, that point is moot. All three of these guys would get the toughest match-ups from the opposition.
--
Statisical Anomaly:
Would you consider a player who scores 31% of his points from goals to be a poor goal scorer?
---
What if he holds the record for most goals in a season and most career goals?
---
(insert standard disclaimer here about not comparing you-know-who to anybody else alive, yada, yada, yada)
Congrats on finishing SS, and try and stay alive through the festivities.
ReplyDeleteWithout you around I might miss my Yossarian updates (an American prospect on Pianosa, was that the Italian League?).
I suggest a donair as the best meal to absorb acohol with.
(106) - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, (82) - Andrew Kudrna, (61) – John Persson
ReplyDeleteHuberdeau (105), Phillips (95) and Galiev (65).
Couturier (96), Palat (96), Brunelle (51).
Little context here.
I'm not completely sure that RNHs linemates were the two imports for much of the year.
They're both undrafted. Both of Couturier's linemates are undrafted 91s
Huberdeau has Phillips who has been bandied as a late first round early second round pick and Galiev was a 3rd rounder last year that many felt fell because of his nationality.
Huberdeau has the better talent on his line by a mile.
Kudrna is a 91er and Persson is a 92er.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSo I guess I'm saying I'd rather have Couturier then Huberdeau if I'm taking one of the Q prospects with the top pick.
ReplyDelete@Cactus,
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for not being clear. I didn't mean to suggest that Huberdeau should be compared to Hall or Kane. My point is only that, whenever anyone mentions Huberdeau, you get the "stacked team asterix" next to his name.
You didn't hear that so much with the likes of Kane or Hall or other draft eligible players who lead their team in scoring.
I think that argument may possibly hold water when discussing a draft eligible player who doesn't lead his team in scoring.
A perfect example is Shane Prince. His numbers this year were exceptional. 59 GP, 25-63-88 1.492ppg. But even more than that, he scored 1.068 EV PPG; more than any of the "top 5".
However, he was well behind teammate Tyler Toffoli in scoring. Hence, you don't hear him in any top 10 conversations, let alone going in the first round.
I'd say Landeskog's inability to produce on the PP is a fairly big red flag that tends to get ignored. If you can't either score on or get PP time in junior as an 18 year old, what are the chances of that suddenly changing in the NHL? I think that signficantly limits his pro upside, and should be considered if you are thinking of him as a top 3 pick.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm not sure if people watched the World Under-18 game today on TSN, but the semi-final and potentially final will also be broadcast and it's a good place to watch a lot of players who'll be in play at the LA pick and 31. I thought both McNeill and Scheifele had strong games for Canada but I think they'll both be gone by 19. A player like Brett Ritchie or Nick Cousins would both be solid picks at 31 though.
FBV: Or not not.
ReplyDeleteMy argument wasn't that one should pick the "saw him good" players and ignore the numbers (106 points!). It was that at some point the stats we have don't create any real distance between the various candidates. So we have to start looking at other ways to decide between the candidates.
And none of the numbers I've seen suggest that Huberdeau or Couturier or Strome or RNH or Landeskog are, by the numbers, clearly superior to one another. Those who think there are such differences think the numbers we have are more precise instruments than they are. That is the argument. And that the only real certainty here is that Couturier can't play for Rob's team because he is too slow.
The EV points metric is interesting, and worth discussion, but it clearly isn't the be all either. I realize hunter throws a lot of shit out there, but he was right in noting the paradox that a group of people committed to advanced stats seem to be getting hung up on rudimentary stats because they are the only numbers we have.
Maybe already mentioned, but Cameron Abney signed to an ELC
ReplyDeleteClay
ReplyDeleteRe Shane Prince. I think the biggest reason he is so low is his size. IIRC he is about 5'8 and 150 or something nuts like that
Oilers: Rocco Grimaldi is 5''6 and listed in the first round by some.
ReplyDeleteI like RNH, but this is wide open.
ReplyDeleteI'd like trading down if someone was in love with someone and offered a good chunk (ex, more than a 2nd round pick).
Oilers just signed Abney to an ELC.
I can't wait to hear Tambo say "Would I like to make this move? Yes, but we already have 50 contracts."
hoil...
ReplyDeleteYou're showing your apple cheeks. Now put Nately's Whore back in the closet and ignore the banging.
There's something to be said for the wisdom of crowds. TSN only have their rankings from 2004 onwards online, but in every year the guy they've settled on as the best forward has turned out to be an elite level talent.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers need to get an elite level talent from this draft. They can't get a guy who is merely good. If RNH (or anyone else) is TSN's top rated forward when the draft rolls around, I would be very wary of taking anyone other than that guy.
How about this
ReplyDeleteEDM trades #1 and #19 pick to COL for #2 and #11
EDM trade RW Ales Hemsky and #11 pick for #3 pick (assumes Hemsky will not resign)
EDM selects center and dman based on who is left after the Colorado pick (hopefully Larsson and Couturier but RNH and Hamilton would also be OK)
@ Asia Oil
ReplyDeleteLove the first trade, hate the second.
I'd much rather try to trade Hemsky to CBJ straight up for their 1st, and then have 3 picks in the top 11.
I really like the list LT put up at ON earlier, and if any one of those guys falls out of the top 10, having 3 of them would be outstanding. Even if you end up with something like Couturier, Murphy, Armia... that's a hell of a draft.
Basically, if you are moving Hemsky, don't toss in a 1st too. It's not worth it.
... maybe a 4th...
Asiaoil:
ReplyDeleteColorado only does that deal if they love RNH, but they know the Oil would only do it if they love Larsson more. So why would the Avs drop from 11 to 19 when it's very likely the Oil will just pick Larsson #1 anyway if they turn the deal down?
With this cluster at the top, I don't see why any teal with a top-5 pick would give up anything to move up.
We saw it last year when it made a ton of sense for the Bs to trade up to grab Hall and they didn't.
I agree with LT on taking SC with the first pick.My reasoning is actually quite simple.He made Team Canada for the WJC while none of the others did.Who scouts these players more then Team Canada?RNH got an invite and sent home.Landeskog and Larsson also played for Sweden.Landeskog isn't enough of an elite talent to take #1,but he does bring a lot to the table.Larsson is/will be a good defenceman.But this team needs a centre more then anything.
ReplyDeleteSo much murkiness regarding this #1 pick....
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should just trade it to St Louis for Jaden Schwartz :)
And I'm actually being at least half serious here.
The unintended bonus is that it would drive the goals-to-points ratio cohort totally bonkers, LOL...
Not sure why Colorado would be willing to pay much to move up for a centre when they have Duchene & Stastny already (weren't there rumours Stastny may have been available around the trade deadline?). That leads me to believe that getting RNH might not be their priority.
ReplyDeleteIf Colorado actually wants Larsson, the not-so-secret Oiler admiration for RNH could have the Avs thinking they would get their man without doing anything.
The game here would be to for the Oilers to play a shell game on their real preferred pick while convincing the Avalanche that their favourite would be plucked by the Oilers. I don't think there is anybody in the Oiler head office slick enough to pull off that con.
52 goals, 163 assists
ReplyDelete1985
.31
Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers
I asked Stauffer about RNH's assists and he said the reason he doesn't get more goals is the other players on his team aren't good enough to get him the puck. Also the pp points come because when he is on the ice 5 on 5 the other team literally puts 2 men on him to follow him around the ice, and his 5 x 5 linemates aren't that good. He gets more points on the PP because the second line center Froese has a wicked shot, but they never play together 5x5 so he has less of a sniper to pass to.
And, as mentioned, he doesn't get as many goals because he is rarely passed to, he always has the puck
So on to my favourite topic.
ReplyDeleteInstead of talking about the draft, how about mid tier UFA"s the oilers can go after so they won't completely suck?
My vote:
Glencross 1 year 3.5 million
Reasoner 1 year 1.5 million
Hedjda 1 year 2 million
6 million bucks makes the oilers competitive.
If they sign Gerber and send Khabi to the minors maybe they even are playing meaningful games in March and April?
Kris: Scouts all agree on shit that doesn't work out all the time.
ReplyDeleteIn the later rounds, yeah. But the scouts have been incredibly good at identifying the top few picks every year for some time now.
(They used to not be so good. My guess is scouts are keeping track of things like chances, shots, linemates, quality of comp., line matching, even if they don't do it quite as formally as Gabe does with shot events and Dennis does with chances. They have more data in their notes and that data will sometimes give the context we lack. Scouts aren't just throwing out "saw him good" opinions. IMO.)
Here are the top two picks from 2008 back to 2000. Most of them were consensus picks. The scouts don't really make mistakes on these guys, or they do so rarely.
Doughty, Stamkos, Johnson, Staal, Crosby, Bobby Ryan, Ovechkin, Malkin, Fleury (goalie: tough call), E. Staal, Nash, Lehtonen (another goalie, the next skater was Bouwmeester), Kovalchuk, Spezza, Heatley, Dipietro (again, the lesson is don't draft goalies, the next skater was Gaborik)
(They just missed on Toews as a third overall instead of Johnson and J. Staal.)
That's an amazing record of picking the best prospects and the best future players in the first 2 picks.
The scouts are good throughout the first round, though they get less accurate as you go further in the draft.
You can't just dismiss that as "sa him good." It's an objective record of success, and in the earliest part of the draft it is much more success than failure.
So if a large consensus of scouts won't go for Couturier, that makes it quite likely that Couturier is not the best prospect/future player going forward.
That said, the boxcars are strongly against RNH.
It's a coinflip at this point, IMO.
Face it Huberdeau is a light weight (6.01/170lbs) player that was protected all year. For the total year he only took 280 FO, which he won 114. His wingers took most of the FO. He also racked up 88min in PM, a lot for offensive player that's supposed to sound defensively. Compared to SC stats, were he took 1430 FO, winning 778 and having only 36 pim. If I was picking a center, it would be ether SC or Stome, RNH and Huberdeau don't even come close.
ReplyDeleteI happen to be friends with a teammate of Ryan's from his 11, 12 and 15 year old seasons and he tells me that Hopkin's is a very special player. It's not like this kid has come out of no where, he's been at the top of his age group since these things mattered. Also, he tells me that at these levels Ryan was a prolific goal scorer, that his skating, elusiveness and shot were his primary weapons. It seems that his playmaking at the junior level is a product of environment.
ReplyDeleteI am also friends with one of the marquee defenders on the Oil Kings and I had a chance to talk with him shortly after the playoff series. He tells me that keying in on Hopkin's was the game plan and they still got burned. Ryan's extraordinary passing ability stood out to the Oil Kings defender. Although he does concede that the series would have been different had Red Deer's goalie not played so well.
As for me, I think the lack of EV offense is not a big concern. I would say it is more the product of the quality of his teammates than anything else. Also, for what it's worth, Ryan's peers tell me that he is a real good kid. I don't think we're dealing with a guy like Schremp who could only put up points on the powerplay on a stacked team.
Oilersfan, I like Glencross too, but I can't see him signing just a one year deal with 24 goals last year (43 points). 2 year deal maybe?
ReplyDeleteGlencross has stated more then once that he is more concerned with term then dollar figures.
ReplyDeleteWonder what the top 5 lines for goals:
ReplyDeleteI would take:
hall30G huberdeau 30G eberle 30G
I think that might stack up.
Kris: Because picking the top 2 is usually pretty easy.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you're joking or not.
But these guys are usually massively taller and better than the others.
I am not joking. Nor do I like it when children try to patronize me.
ReplyDelete1. Scouts are reliable judges of who should go 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, overall, especially when there's a strong consensus.
2. A strong consensus of scouts says Couturier should not be picked 1st or 2nd. (3rd?)
_____________________________
Therefore, there is a good reason to not pick Couturier 1st or 2nd.
There are reasons not to pick RNH too, so this is a bugger of a problem.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKris: Well let's compare shall we? Top 2 versus the 3 guy. Everytime the 3 is better than 1 or 2 scouts lose, every other time, they win.
ReplyDelete2000: Dipietro, Heatley, Gaborik,
(Scouts lose)
2001: Kovalchuk, Spezza, Svitov
(Scouts win)
2002: Nash, Lehtonen, Bouwmeester
(Scouts lose)
2003: Fleury, Staal, Horton
(Scouts lose)
2004: Ovechkin, Malkin, Barker
(Scouts win)
2005: Crosby, Ryan, Johnson
(Scouts win)
2006: E. Johnson, J. Staal, Toews
(Scouts lose big time)
2007: Kane, Van Ryemsdyk, Turris
(Scouts win)
2008: Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian
(Scouts win)
2009: Tavares, Hedman, Duchene
(Scouts lose)
5-5. Ain't exactly pinpoint.
J-Bo over Nash? Horton over Staal?
ReplyDeleteDuchene v. Tavares/Hedman is too early too call.
But the whole thing is a silly exercise. What one finds when one moves down the draft order is increasingly smaller odds of getting an impact player. No one disputes this - it doesn't approach randomness until very late in the draft. Ergo, the scouts are doing something right in the first round.
I mean, I suppose some team could take a teenager in Quebec and let them do their draft on their pet players, but I'll trust the people who do this for a living.
Gogliano:.... well as you take people will smaller points total you'l get less players.
ReplyDeleteRead again. If the 3 is better than any of 1 or 2.
Those people who ''do it for a living'' don't have anything more than me. Being a scout = No prerequisites.
Btw, you succesfully used two sophisms in a small text.
ReplyDeleteAttack to the person, and appeal to authority.
I guess because Tambellini does it for a living he's probably better than some farmer from alberta with his tractor.
Woodguy and Chris, I think your stats aren't applicable to this scenario.
ReplyDeleteHow a player scores in the NHL (in only a single season, at that, and your own stats from the different years prove how fickle that can be) - is not at issue.
The issue is how well the scoring translates from junior to the NHL. The Oilers got burned on Schremp.
As for Couturier, the more I look at his stats rather than "seen him bad" commentary, the more I think how much better would he have done without mono? Do teams appreciate the toll mono has on someone? Comrie missed a ton of time and wasn't himself after developing mono.
Well, that's it for me. I will never post here again. I'm tired of trying to prove things to the fpvs of the world when they're not debating and discussing in good faith.
ReplyDeleteI'll keep reading.
I've enjoyed discussing things with all of you. I think of many of you as friends. I may post on personal topics, but not on hockey if it's warranted, e.g. to congratulate or someone , etc.
Best Wishes,
Kris
fpb,
ReplyDeleteI think you are a smart young man with potential, but you don't yet merit the kind of deference you seem to demand from everyone.
I just made a post ripping you in a dozen ways and then I deleted it because I respect LT too much to post it on his blog. That, and it would serve no purpose other than for me to blow off steam. Playing some COD is a better option for that venting.
Instead of that pointless rant, I would like to respectfully ask you to tone down the hyperbole a bit. You once accused me of being condescending, a tag you are probably familiar with.
This blog is full of some very bright people, and there is a lot to be learned from them, but we lose that opportunity when we drive people off by stomping all over them.
You don't want to end up like DSF.
Hoil: What exactly did I just do? Some argued a point and I argued back saying ''well not so sure''.
ReplyDeleteIf you talk about the Gogliano posts, i'd like you to point out what's bad, instead of just saying what i'm doing is wrong.