This is Lake Louise. I've been going there a few times every year for decades, it's kind of my peaceful place. The girl I married introduced it to me, she's kind of my ride-a-long Lake Louise. I know it isn't terribly original, but can say that in hundreds of visits Lake Louise never fails to set me straight on the nature of things and the things that matter.
I took my kids here when they could barely walk, and early on they'd bitch and moan because part of being at Lake Louise is walking the path around it (you can only go partway down but it's a wonderful walk. Johnson's canyon too).
As they get a little older, I believe they've come to appreciate the beauty of Lake Louise. Sometimes in a busy life it's easy to get mixed up and there are times when the brain gets addled. I hope my kids find their Lake Louise, and it would be kind of cool if they adopted it as their peaceful place.
--
Rumblings in the media again about Quebec City and Darryl Katz. Apparently the Oilers will be in play if the arena doesn't happen and deadlines are implied if not stated. As I get older, I find myself becoming less and less emotionally involved when an Oiler owner starts making noises about moving the team. Hey, I'll mourn this team like crazy if they move, it might take weekly trips to Lake Louise for years to work it through.
But Darryl Katz owns the Edmonton Oilers and he has a dream more powerful (apparently) than keeping the Oilers in Edmonton. Go your best, Mr. Katz. Godspeed.
For me, I'm just glad no one has figured out a way to move Lake Louise. I suspect they'll get around to it after I'm gone.
For all the bluster we impute to Katz, I really get the feeling that he would never move the Oilers in a million years.
ReplyDeleteHe would have to leave town with the family in tow if he did. Aside from that, I think he wants to see them here just as much as any fan. The upside of an owner who is fan?
jon k: Well we don't really know because Mr. Katz doesn't give interviews or tell people what he's thinking. He's Batman.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that he's a great owner or a bad owner, suspect he's an owner on a learning curve. Which means he's getting advice from various sources and then his soldiers execute the plan.
As with the rebuild, so too the words of the Oilers at this time must be credited to Mr. Katz.
The combination of years away from Edmonton and the last five years and counting of futility have done a lot to kill whatever emotional attachment I once had to the team, so the possibility of them moving doesn't really phase me much. If the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, I'll have a replacement all set. That said, an Oilers' move to QC won't happen.
ReplyDeleteThere's no way a team with this track record for ineptness goes anywhere else. The only reason they do so well here is because even the retar... even the disadvantaged can make 50k annually in the oilpatch, and a responsible 6th grader can make 150k. No where else in NA is there as much disposable income as there is in Edmonton for people who are quite happy to spend it on frivilous pass times.
ReplyDeleteThere's always the Leafs.
ReplyDeleteWe're going to end up buying the stupid building. Then 10 years from now we'll all talk about how it was stupid to buy the building.
ReplyDeleteThose that supported it will use time to convince themselves that they were right and that they didn't really support the arena being funded like it was.
Those that didn't support it will have sore heads from trying to get anyone to admit it was stupid. WORLD CLASSINESS HEEEERE WE COME!!!
I actually wouldn't mind them gone. They're kind of like bad crack. I don't really want to do anymore and just need a good excuse to kick the habit.
Laforge needs to be careful. If push comes to shove and the silent majority start really standing up and voicing concern, it will end badly.
ReplyDeleteHopefully the population gets over the abused wife syndrome sooner than later. If we're not good enough then go find someone else to threaten.
An an Edmonton expatriate in Fredericton the last few years, I miss the Rocky Mountains much more than I miss the Oilers.
ReplyDelete(Though I'm more a Jasper guy - give me Maligne Canyon.)
As a Jasperite, that makes me happy. If the Oilers leave I'll just become an average hockey fan who tunes in around playoff time to watch some decent hockey.
ReplyDeleteinteresting to see this posted on MLB's opening day because, at least for me and LT too of course, it's the perfect day to draw parallels to Expos and what their move meant to some of us.
ReplyDeleteRight off the bat a move to Quebec would seem preferential to me for two reasons:
1. it's a better timezone for watching and guys like Danny, KT and SS can speak to what a nice difference that would mean.
2. dropping them in Quebec would mean an instant rivalry with Cuntreal and that would be delicious.
But, I'd still prefer the team to stay in Edmonton.
All that being said I don't think they'll move. I think Katz is playing hardball to get what he wants arena wise and I think he'll eventually win.
I've long said the fans in Edm are so afraid of the team being moved that it's the only reason why they keep showing up and supporting a team of sadsacks.
I can't find another reason why they would.
So if my theory is correct then enough people will get behind the cause that gives Katz what he wants and huzzah the Oilers stay.
If crappier markets like Winnipeg, Kansas, and Quebec can get a crappy team like the Oilers, maybe a decent hockey market like Edmonton can get a good team.
ReplyDeleteWhere are these media reports?
ReplyDeleteAll I can find is reference to Katz meeting with the boss of Quebecor during the Kings game.
Big deal.
If the NHL won't move the Coyotes, I really have trouble understanding how they would let the Oilers move out of a profitable market.
Katz won't move the team, and if he did Bettman wouldn't make it easy for him.
ReplyDeleteKatz can leave.
ReplyDeleteAs a market that produces in excess of 90MM in revenue there are more than a few teams that would come here.
As long as he takes LaForge, Lowe and Tambellini with him I'll drive them to the airport myself.
Here's an interesting article about NHL revenues that TSN did this year to see if Winnipeg is viable.
If Katz want all the revenues from the new building but won't guarantee the city's debt with that revenue, the it tells me just how bad this deal is for the city.
In all of the models that the Katz group brings up in regards to the arena debate, the public debt was guaranteed by the private interest getting the revenues.
I'm pro arena, but anti LaForge and they way they are going about this.
Assholes.
Oilers haven't won in Minn in 5 years, doubt that changes tonight.
We're going to end up buying the stupid building. Then 10 years from now we'll all talk about how it was stupid to buy the building.
ReplyDeleteThe same way we complain about Rexall, Commonwealth, the upgrades to Rexall, the upgrades to Commonwealth...
I agree that the city needs to do whatever is necessary to prevent taxpayers from getting screwed, but no matter what happens I'll be shocked if it remained a sore spot five years out.
As per Mackenzie, Stephane da Costa will not be coming here. Signed with OTT.
ReplyDeleteThere have been many events over the past month which have both kept me off here and helped me have some perspective on the importance of hockey in general and Oilers hockey in specific. I am looking forward to my own Lake Louise this summer (actually hoping for a Johnson Canyon hike), because the boys are old enough to enjoy it and not have to be carried most of the way. There is just way too much of life to be enjoyed to worried about little things like professional hockey teams.
There is just way too much of life to be enjoyed to worried about little things like professional hockey teams.
ReplyDeleteAmen.
Now let's get back to worrying about this damned professional hockey team.
All this accomplishes at this point, is pissing off fans of the Edmonton Oilers (Half of which were already pro arena FFS!).
ReplyDeleteI would also be willing to wager that as soon as the deal is approved (in Edmonton), they will immediately convert to a competitive rebuild….. In which tanking is out of the question, the home record improves substantially, and they actually start signing useful FA’s to short term contracts.
I’m sure it not a random coincidence that the rebuild timeframe outlined by the president, coincides exactly with the forecasted completion of the new downtown arena.
If the Oilers were a country in Africa, we would all be wearing bandanas and assault rifles right now.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteActually that TSN article uses revenues from 08/09 and assumes US$1=C$1.05, and today US$1=C$0.9718
ReplyDeleteMore reason for Katz's blowhards to go fuck themselves.
Katz may not give interviews, but if you want to know how a man works and how he thinks, observe how the people who work for him operate.
Chaddarb wrote:I would also be willing to wager that as soon as the deal is approved (in Edmonton), they will immediately convert to a competitive rebuild….. In which tanking is out of the question, the home record improves substantially, and they actually start signing useful FA’s to short term contracts.
ReplyDeleteI’m sure it not a random coincidence that the rebuild timeframe outlined by the president, coincides exactly with the forecasted completion of the new downtown arena.
To what end? How does having a bad team help in terms of getting a new arena?
I wonder if part of the reason that Dallas did so well in the late 1990s early 2000s was because of how much Oil money there was floating around that town...
ReplyDeleteSo, when the Oilers leave, who do we want to invite to come here? The Preds? Or should Mandel just go talk with Bettman and ask to have the Coyotes move here instead?
I bet the COE could buy the team and make a mint, and never have to worry about them leaving again, while at the same time pocket all that lovely profit that Katz keeps saying isn't actually there... Hell, they could buy the team for less than the price of the new arena!
Ovicti - What the Oilers are known as once they are evicted from Edmonton for being d*uchebags
Well if the team goes to Quebec, then they should definitely draft that French guy instead of the Canadian one.
ReplyDeleteThat was easy.
To what end? How does having a bad team help in terms of getting a new arena?
ReplyDeleteI think the idea is that Katz wants the team to christen the theoretical new arena with a cup run in 4 or 5 years.
To what end? How does having a bad team help in terms of getting a new arena?
ReplyDeleteYou haven't heard? UFAs won't sign here because of our crappy rink!
It all makes sense now, the tanking till we get a new arena was just a ruse to allow the team to draft Aaron ekblad in 2014! Kevin Lowe for GM of the year!
ReplyDeleteCooke- uhhhhhhh, BOOM HEADSHOT
@Speeds:
ReplyDeleteIt’s the caveman mentality. Northlands = Loosing and complacency …. New arena = Playoffs and prosperity.
It’s the same baseless propaganda they always use on (us) the emotional yet uneducated fans: Struds = good in room / Foster = needs to shoot more / Bloggers = tools of the devil
Well if the team goes to Quebec, then they should definitely draft that French guy instead of the Canadian one.
ReplyDeleteThat was easy.
You mean the guy born in the USA?
Seriously, moving a team is damn near impossible - if they think moving Nashville to Kansas City is beyond the pale, threatening to march the Oilers anywhere should be laughed at. Katz absolutely cannot do what he pleases with the team location, anymore than Balsillie could. It's a non-starter, even if he was serious about trying it. Why the City or the MSM would give it any credence at all by responding to it is utterly beyond me. I sure as hell wouldn't be accepting shitty terms in deference to this non-existent threat - or else you really Do get what you deserve and he's found the right patsies in Edm.
ReplyDeleteEdmontonians should open their wallets and help Mr. Katz get his building.
ReplyDeleteThen he and LaForge can grind you under their heels for the next decade or so.
Oilers signed a FA LW: Hunter Tremblay. Interesting guy. Seems like an incredible longshot for the NHL considering his career path to date. Interestingly has a few fights from his OHL days, despite his small stature.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=71718
http://www.thebruns.ca/articles/44607
http://www.unbhockeyfans.com/2009/10/hunter-tremblay-named-unbvalley.html
http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/2399
Some great climbing around Lake Louise. Which reminds me... thinking of tackling Mount Temple and Mount Assiniboine this summer. Any alpinists among you flatland bastards?
ReplyDeleteI know that's not really about the Oilers, but I've not watched a game in more than 3 weeks. It's out of necessity rather than choice, but I suspect I'm a happier person for it.
Having been gone for a very long time, that picture of the Rockies makes me homesick. There are few sites more awe inspiring in North America than the Canadian Rockies. I have driven many roads and the run on Highway 93 between Jasper and Banff is still one of the best on this continent.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's time and distance away from Edmonton, but like LittleFury said, the possibility of the Oilers moving just doesn't hold much sway anymore.
I have to agree with you Alice,Bettman and the other owners are not going to let a revenue sharing team relocate.
ReplyDeleteTell Katz what my dad used to tell me when I was a kid and threatened to leave..."Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"
Oilers sign Hunter Tremblay
ReplyDeletePiss on it as childish if you like, but I'd personally be devestated if the Oilers left and would never feel a true attachment to any replacement team (even if they kept the name and were substantially better).
ReplyDeleteI refuse to become like a demented Browns fan, lying to myself and insisting on citing Ravens franchise history when referring to my team.
Piss on it as childish if you like, but I'd personally be devestated if the Oilers left and would never feel a true attachment to any replacement team (even if they kept the name and were substantially better).
ReplyDeleteOh, me too. But I'd be *more* devastated if they filled in Maligne Canyon.
Undlunbo? Don't mind if I do.
Laforge needs to be careful. If push comes to shove and the silent majority start really standing up and voicing concern, it will end badly.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of the silent majority, the silence when Laforge was introduced at the Phillips pregame fete the other night was pretty goddam telling. No actual boos but the tepid response spoke volumes. It was great.
I also noticed at the game that they ran a long infomercial on the big screen about the new arena in Pittsburgh through the first intermission, and then they ran it again in the second intermission in case you missed it the first time. A nice little value-added benefit for those who shelled out $500 for a pair of tickets for that wonderful game.
@Icecastles: Haven't seen a game for three weeks, eh. Well at least you didn't miss any wins.
Woodguy said...
ReplyDeleteOilers sign Hunter Tremblay
Here's hoping he can help the Barons out, they're as thin up front right now as...as...the entire Oilers lineup.
Btw, great lead-in, LT. I get my own solace from the night sky, even as I have to drive tens of km to get out of the fog of artifical light to observe it properly, not to mention the sorry fact it's been hidden behind a low ceiling of constant cloud for about six fucking months. Still, there's no better way to put things in perspective. But the mountains work great too.
ReplyDeleteI'm with Jon K on the subject.. I don't see Katz moving the team. That said, I'd rather not find out if he has the guts to pull the trigger. Let's just get this whole arena thing solved already...
ReplyDeleteWoodguy as always tells it the way it is.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy for GM of the Oilers!(okay, only President of Hockey Operations)
Found this blurb about the new Cowboys stadium on Wiki
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys_Stadium
Originally estimated to cost $650 million, the stadium's current construction cost was $1.15 billion,[13] making it one of the most expensive sports venues ever built. To aid Cowboys owner and general manager Jerry Jones in paying the construction costs of the new stadium, Arlington voters approved the increase of the city's sales tax by 0.5 percent, the hotel occupancy tax by 2 percent, and car rental tax by 5 percent. The City of Arlington provided over $325 million (including interest) in bonds as funding,[13][14] and Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million loan, as per their policy for facilitating financing for the construction of new stadiums.[15]
After pissing away the greatest collection of HOF talent other than the Canadiens, it would be fitting for the Oilers to leave town.
ReplyDeleteThen we can all watch them flounder in whatever small market, or plain disinterested in hockey area they relocate to.
Like some kind of a slut putting on airs as she packs her stuff up after a dirty weekend, these Oilers.
Seriously. Are we talking about the sabre-rattling as if it were real? It is all about shaking the tree and seeing what fruit falls out. (I love mixing metaphors badly)
ReplyDeleteProide - really well made fake id's
Me:
ReplyDeleteWell if the team goes to Quebec, then they should definitely draft that French guy instead of the Canadian one.
That was easy.
Ducey:
You mean the guy born in the USA?
What do you mean by you mean?
Sometimes people ovess-analyze things that aren't meant to be taken literally.
Seriously, the Katz bashing is simply stupid and petty.
ReplyDeleteA good debate about the merits of the arena deal is welcome (see Don Iveson), but a lot of what I read is simply typical Edmontonian whining and bitching.
hoil:
ReplyDeleteI was guessing you meant the Oilers should take Couturier because he has a french last name. In fact he was born in AZ.
Then we can all watch them flounder in whatever small market, or plain disinterested in hockey area they relocate to.
Hunter,
talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
From your lair in Antartica, you may get some joy from seeing the Oilers walk. As someone who lives in EDM, I would be very upset. It would be a huge loss.
Why the hell do you "cheer" for the Oilers anyway? As far as I can tell from your constant steam of criticism, you hate the players, management, owner, city and bascially everything about the team. Or does picking on a last place team just feed your need to fell superior?
Ducey: Thank you for the critique.
ReplyDeleteI grew up watching the dynasty, saw them live around 50x, as a small boy, then saw them cynically dismantled and replaced by a never ending series of palooka teams - everytime sold as being worthy of my support.
I'm also an England soccer supporter - pity me lol - this means I'm in company that makes my own cynicism look like something out of a Walt Disney classic movie, by comparison.
If you would like to follow this up, please feel free to talk to me on my blog - of course if you prefer to ignore this that's probably for the best :)
PS: Katz, who bought the team on the PR hype that he's a fan, is threatening to move the team, and I'm supposed to swallow it!?
ReplyDeleteIf Katz wants my opinion, he too can ask me on my blog - I'm certain I already know about 1000x more about media+presentation than any of the clowns his NHL team is currently employing.
I can see it now, Gilles Duceppe, Pauline Marois, Jaques Parizeau and Bernard Landry at center ice with Katz for the first ever puck drop in their new arena... le tir, le buuuuuut.... puke.
ReplyDeleteBruce: can you score the next two games? I'll go back and look at them on Gamecentre in a few days if not.
ReplyDeleteDucey said:
ReplyDelete//you may get some joy from seeing the Oilers walk. As someone who lives in EDM, I would be very upset. It would be a huge loss.//
They can't fucking walk. Can't. So for you and the rest of the city to react as though it's possible - you're just talking your way into getting screwed. Katz CANNOT move his team, he wants an arena - which is good - now get the best deal out of those two pieces of information that you can. Edm behaves like Katz is holding the cards. HE wants the arena. HE has no other place to go. So get it done, but Edmonton, get off your collective frigging knees about it.
Two things to consider if the Oilers did move to Quebec:
ReplyDelete1.the ice girls would be exponentially more attractive.
2. good old Vish would still land on his feet because he's a local;)
Seriously, the Katz bashing is simply stupid and petty. A good debate about the merits of the arena deal is welcome (see Don Iveson), but a lot of what I read is simply typical Edmontonian whining and bitching.
ReplyDeleteWhen the refuse to privately open their books to verify the poverty claims (Iveson asked and was told no), how are the Oilers helping the debate?
When they refuse to discuss guaranteeing the CLR revenue while demanding 100% of the new arena revenue how are the Oilers helping the debate?
When they talk about development around the project but do not bring forward any developers with concrete proposals, how are the Oilers helping the debate? (Lots of developers have land around the site or options on land around the site, where are they?)
When they talk about the CRL funding the arena, but can't prove one company is going to develop, how is that helping the debate?
A lot of us are pro arena and would like to see it done, but the Katz group has not been forthcoming where they need be and refuse to take on risk commensurate with the returns they are likely to receive.
They have been high handed and act like 1800's English Gentry when asked about sharing risk and proving costs.
They have been absolute assholes.
Assholes.
Hunter,
ReplyDeleteYou are too kind.
Thanks.
This just in the oilers left town with Pronger
ReplyDeleteI never did understand Eric Lindros - the chicks in Quebec City + being a hockey star = hunter1909 Nirvana.
ReplyDelete@Dennis: Can't promise. Tonight I'm covering both Oil Kings and Oilers, will be coming home from Rexall late to watch the unexcellent, unenergetic game from the horribly misnamed Xcel Energy Centre on PVR. No doubt I will already know Oilers have lost 4-0 or 5-1 so that will add to the fun. Then I get to write about said game as if I've actually seen it so I suppose I better do it. If I can keep my focus I'll tabulate scoring chances, I'll let you know.
ReplyDeleteSame thing Saturday, if the Oil Kings win tonight I'll be in Red Deer and relying on help myself for player grades.
I'll let you know. What I can tell you right now is that this job would be a whole lot more fun if my team didn't totally suck ass.
@Dennis: What I WON'T whine to you about is how tough it's going to be tabulating scoring chances at two o'clock in the fucking a.m. I don't know how you do it, man, I really don't.
ReplyDeleteRe The Draft:
ReplyDeleteI know nothing about Larsson other than he sounds like the guy to take - but man that RNH looks like an electric player. Sensational, even.
Lucky Oilers - they get to pick one of them(and surely will).
So get it done, but Edmonton, get off your collective frigging knees about it.
ReplyDeleteNailed it.
Won't prove you're losing them money you say? Fuck you.
Won't guarantee any CRL shortfall with your new revenues? Fuck you.
Can't bring any development proposals to prove CRL will provide the needed income streams? Fuck you.
Who was the last Oilers owner not to threaten to move the team at some point? Nelson Skalbania? Bill F. Hunter? Wake me up when the team actually moves.If Gary's willing to waste three years and tens of millions of dollars on keeping the Coyotes put, the Oilers aren't going anywhere.
ReplyDeleteNever been up to Lake Louise specifically, but I stayed at the Banff Centre once, and it was majestic standing at the top of the dining centre, looking out at the Rockies and the thin fog/clouds below, and absorbing the beauty. Hiking around Barrier Lake is pretty nice in the fall, too.
To what end? How does having a bad team help in terms of getting a new arena?
So they can conveniently point to the new arena when they finally get good. Correlation implies causation!
For all of you who are concerned, Marincin did all he could to keep our local Cougars in the playoffs here, but once Conelly went down, it was too much for the kid. I'm hoping he lands in OKC next season as another year here in Hell, BC, would utterly destroy the kids spirit. 1 Goal, 4 Assists, -4 in 4 playoff games.
ReplyDeleteIronically though, I love the outdoor life here in Hell, BC. Within a 90 minute drive there are well over 66 hikes of varying levels and the best part is that you can some times hike for days and not see another soul.
@Icecastles
ReplyDeleteI am! Are you thinking technical routes or scrambles? I haven't been up either but am VERY familiar with climbs on the Parkway as it's part of my job.
Wasn't one of the conditions for Katz to buy the team that he had to keep it in Edmonton?? Someone enlighten me.
ReplyDelete@Hunter1909: I'll say he's electric. So far in the series RNH has seven points. One of them tied a game, five of them broke a tie, and one of them gave Red Deer a two-goal lead with about 5 minutes left. He has been involved in 54% of Red Deer's goals, but 100% of those when they were behind or tied. 5 of his 7 points have occurred in the last 12 minutes of the third period.
ReplyDeleteJake70: If that were the case I'd imagine that there would be some sort of "out" provision. For example, a provision that nullifies the "no move" clause if it can be shown that the team is no longer financially viable in Edmonton. That's just a guess though.
ReplyDeletepitting
Bruce: It's not just that RNH scores...its the WAY he does it.
ReplyDeleteLike old Elvis clips on YOUTUBE - he just has this crazy style going for him.
If they draft him and he busts, I won't even get mad(Schremp fan) lol.
In fact if you look back over the last five games including the two that wrapped up the regular season, Red Deer has beaten Edmonton 5 straight times, scoring 20 goals and allowing 9. They have scored two tying goals and eight go-ahead goals in those games, with RNH posting 5-5-10 on those 10 goals. On the other ten, he's 1-0-1 (that late clincher in Game One).
ReplyDeleteObviously that can be filed under "statistical curiosity" as well as "unsustainable", but it's quite a roll nonetheless. The Oil Kings would be happy to see the last of him if it didn't mean the end of their season as well.
Hunter: I am putting my trust entirely in the Magnificent Bastard, but I'm kind of hoping he sees the kid good too. I'm in no position to compare because I've seen RNH play 8 times this year and none of the other hotshots even once. (Unless you consider Keegan Lowe a possibility for that top pick ... :)
ReplyDeleteWord verification: "regal". No, seriously.
If they draft Keegan Lowe in the 1st round, does that mean the OIlers stay in Edmonton?
ReplyDeleteAnd good luck proving a revenue sharing team is losing money much less financially unviable :).
ReplyDeleteAlice & Woodguy are dead on; Katz is in no position to demand or threaten. He can't move the team period. All he's trying to do right now is free load off taxpayers. Heavy handed one sided bullying if I've ever seen it. Too bad the media and public don't call him on his paper tiger bull shit.
Wanting all the benefit with absolutely no risk is pure douchebaggery.
uni: Wanting everything without risk is business - threatening to move a team is where douchebaggery begins.
ReplyDeleteBruce: i have certainly hit the wall with it all.
ReplyDeletesix games left and i don't mind the ones vs cgy and col but i will be trying to unload the two boring games vs minny and the two ass-kickings vs the dys.
A lot of us are pro arena and would like to see it done, but the Katz group has not been forthcoming where they need be and refuse to take on risk commensurate with the returns they are likely to receive.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that they are negotiating. I think you need to remember that. When you negotiate deals with one another you don't always 'show your cards'. In the end, if council does their job, the Katz group will take on some of the risk, but you cannot be surprised that they would prefer not to.
Calling them assholes just demonstrates the point I am making. A lot of Edmontonians live in a world of bad guys and good guys and don't have the capacity to think in nuanced terms. The arena project could be good both for Katz and Edmonton. The City needs to do due diligence to ensure that it gets a good deal.
I just hate it when people vilify Katz when he has been a pretty good citizen overall. I think they have stumbled somewhat because they don't know how to negotiate the politics of the issue with a very delicate Edmonton public.
Alice... Hear, hear!!!
ReplyDeleteAs for Lake Louise, I moved to Cochrane partly because I wanted to see the Rockies in the morning and day trip at will.
Dennis said...
Two things to consider if the Oilers did move to Quebec:
1.the ice girls would be exponentially more attractive.
Yes, but they would all smoke.
Hunter, indeed. Thanks for clarifying my line of thought.
ReplyDeleteEmotional blackmail; same sort of bs my high school gf would pull.
Two things to consider if the Oilers did move to Quebec:
ReplyDelete1.the ice girls would be exponentially more attractive.
Yes, but they would all smoke.
spOILer: not enough data: Unless you finish your sentence we can't really say whether or not to be pleased by this.
Showerhead, I do think he meant cigarettes, otherwise Charles Barkely would have moved there.
ReplyDeleteBazing! Thanks for the late-in-the-day laughs, fellows.
ReplyDelete"polaxin" - Haha!
Yup cigarettes, lol.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with Bookie that they have every right to negotiate hard with the City, the 'move' card, which they don't have - the NHL does, and if they're not about to set any precedents here, to be sure - it's only being played cynically to inflame the electorate and put pressure on council that way. Council, or their counsel will know it's a dud, but meantime every alderman will be fielding calls from the panicking voters.
ReplyDeleteWhy in return would you be inclined to bargain in good faith? A deal can be struck with a bit of trust and commitment on both sides. But one side is leading with douchebaggery. And they should very Publicly be called on it in the press, instead of getting an amplifier.
Bookie,
ReplyDeleteCity Council votes on this April 6th.
The "debate" is closed.
Based on what Iveson has said, there is no negotiation, just a "take it or leave it"
I understand negotiating, I do it all day long and you never start where you are ok finishing, but the Katz group isn't budging off of any point.
Assholes.
Damn. No PM Bouchard injury news. Oh how I love these Minny games. *pokes eyes with forks*
ReplyDeleteBookie if it was a negotiation in good faith I think we could all get behind that.
ReplyDeleteAs it stands though, there is no negotiation in progress, just a whole lot of thinly veiled threats and heavy handedness with absolutely no basis to back them up. Much less any semblance of good faith.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnyone know if the CHL tracks ice time statistics?
ReplyDeleteI asked the coach/GM of Niagra Ice Dogs about it, he said their team had no time on ice data. They'd looked at it but passed due to cost.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about other teams/leagues, but that's one CHL team that doesn't have it.
Flames are gonna draft Keegan Lowe and it's going to own.
ReplyDeleteAnd you're all gonna rue the day you spoke ill of Patrick LaForge.
TSN is talking about coach of the year. I think it should be Renney because he hasn't killed himself.
ReplyDeletestream?
ReplyDeleteSweet 2-0 Oilers!!
ReplyDeleteOh wait, I forgot they are supposed to score on the other net..
stream?
ReplyDeleteAre you sure you want to watch this?
I agree with bookie. The City needs to call their bluff, reject the deal and get down to negotiating. Edmonton is a fantastic hockey market, better than any vacant market available except the GTA and the city has the leverage as a result. I'm not sure the councillors recognize their bargaining position.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Oilers go, I think demanding 100% of all revenue to go along with the city assuming all risk is indefensible.
WG - Why precisely would you listen to Iveson on the matter?
ReplyDeleteWhy precisely would you listen to Iveson on the matter?
ReplyDeleteHas what he's said been contradicted by anybody else?
I mostly agree with Alice, but I still think people are missing the point. He hasn't got the card to move the team, but many of the moaners prefer to believe he has (so they have something valid to moan about).
ReplyDeleteThe city council has their own agenda in how much public money to pour into this project to gain unspoken indirect offshoots for the benefit of their own political fate. Sheesh, that's what politics amounts to as a career option. But the optics are bad and everyone knows it.
Here's where the moaners come into the picture: they will actually believe a reason that isn't a reason, giving all the deal makers a way out. You can build political support by alleviating threats that don't exist.
Even if some of the primary moaners are clued into this dynamic, informed moaning loses a lot in translation. As the group enlarges, most people moan with their eyes closed, and no-one reads the program flyer.
I've quoted this before, here or elsewhere. It's so perfect.
From http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120824/quotes
Billy: It's finding the center of your story, the beating heart of it, that's what makes a reporter. You have to start by making up some headlines. You know: short, punchy, dramatic headlines. Now, have a look, what do you see?
Points at dark clouds at the horizon
Billy: Tell me the headline.
Quoyle: Horizon Fills With Dark Clouds?
Billy: Imminent Storm Threatens Village.
Quoyle: But what if no storm comes?
Billy: Village Spared From Deadly Storm.
Katz is busy authoring the headline "Edmonton spared from Quebec city" so that fewer of the papers read "Tundra grease necks cough up $300m into the offering plate in order to float abusive husband".
We need to think hard about his classification of the Batcave as a charitable religion.
Those prior stanchion pads were ludicrous. Perhaps negligent.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI was more pro than con arena prior to watching the muppet show in action. Woodguy honestly nailed the sentiment exactly. We are getting spoken to like we're complete imbeciles. I have one rule out on locations I run and that is nobody lie to me. When people walk up to you and utter complete and utter bullshit to your face I become a very evil person. The oil are trying to cram complete and utter bs down our throats. For reasons I cannot even fathom the local media is repeating it like an echo chamber.
ReplyDeleteWould like a new arena but I would like that arena without choking on laforge's dick while Katz rides me bareback.
Steve - Meh...does that matter?
ReplyDeleteSteve - Meh...does that matter?
ReplyDeleteWell, yes - when a politician makes a statement that there's no particular reason to disbelieve, and other (rival, on the issue in question) politicians in a position to know do not contradict that statement, I think it's fair to call that statement presumptively true.
Maudite and Woodguy
ReplyDelete+1 to both of you. I had a longer rant prepared, but someone ate it. I'd blame Penner, but he's not here anymore. Maybe Vish is getting hunger now without the Pancakes?
Snisixes - What Oilers management says when talking about all of the sixes in our lineup...
@ bookie
ReplyDeleteI would have no problem with the premise of your insight if not for the fact that discussing the arena during the last civic election was somehow completely taboo for our local media.
If politicians consistently did what was in the best interests of those they represent rather than coming up with crafty ways to rob the public purse, they wouldn't be politicians.
***facelog*** - I can't even come up with anything witty for this verification word, it just makes me laugh.
I'm so bored. I made an All-Alberta team. What do you think? Did I miss anyone?
ReplyDeleteBucyk - Messier - Iginla
Ray Whitney - Ullman - L. McDonald
Smyth - Brent Sutter - Doan
Craven - Unger - Linden
Barnes
Niedermayer - Gadsby
Babych - Sydor
Wesley - M. Green
Bouwmeester - J. Smith
Fuhr
Vernon
Osgood
I could see putting Brian Sutter in for Whitney.
I think we can all agree that for the game tonight, the team approaches an all-time solar minimum. The solar cycle averages 11 years. Hmmm, almost missed the last solar maximum. It only lasted a few weeks.
ReplyDeleteBut maybe in another five to six years, we'll have a solar maximum that's less of a blip.
Lore has it that this team once endured an unexpected solar minimum that lasted all of twenty minutes after a devastating rookie mistake. I was in a lemongrass themed pub in faux-upscale Toronto with a delirious Cowtoon expat with my brain on reality check, watching the storm gather and gather, but never break.
Speaking of reality check, any team in the modern era which has won more than one Stanley cup for every two or three solar cycles rates a zero handicap. True story.
Edmonton has to be careful with this whole building issue. There's a way to do it where all parties come up roses. Just beware of the big budget big building. The venue has to bring in additional revenue for the club and the Oilers do need to control those revenues to continue to thrive. However, the Coyotes situation exposes the enormous risk taxpayers take.
ReplyDeleteWinnipeg did it the right way. There's an example to follow. The MTS Centre has helped revitalize an area of downtown Winnipeg and True North has acquired and will develop more surrounding real estate in conjunction with getting an NHL team back. All three levels of government were involved but to limited extent.
The Oilers don't need a half billion dollar arena. It needs to come in at a cost that is sustainable to both the city and the franchise
At the wheaties tigers game and holy shit does MH miss Bunz. It's 4 to 2 at the end of the first and doesn't look like Brandon's hit it's stride yet
ReplyDeleteOne Sutter is enough. Ask the Flames.
ReplyDeleteI'll go one step further:
ReplyDeleteBookie i think your stance is either naive or utter bs.
If two private business were looking to do a deal and one of them tabled a similar proposal. we assume all guaranteed revenue, you put in the largest share of development capital and stand to gain some benefit from subsiduary development. That would not be the starting point of a negotiation, that would be the last time they talked.
All Sask team would kill that team.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I completely forgot to include the link on the lives of the rich and famous.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/05/paul-allen-201105
It's a nicely written piece, but bear in mind after his kinship with Lemieux, he chose to reincarnate himself as a patent troll. I guess he couldn't handle the innocence.
Another interesting parallel is that Bill was often accused of having no talent, of not being able to innovate, of only being able to steal the ideas of other people. Much like the way we obsess over Oiler management player decisions.
Eventually I figured out that this is one of the horsemen of the Dunning–Kruger effect: the erection of false scorecards by which to evaluate others. The whole of IBM fell into this trap. Then while the whale was left to rot on the beach, for ten years an endless stream of fuzzy mammals continued to cross the road thinking they wouldn't be next.
While Katz might be loaded, it's a lot of sand down the trousers to excavate an 18 story batcave under a public structure in complete secrecy. He might be more strapped than he lets on.
If there is another lock out, the NHLPA should host something like this. A new version of the Canada Cup featuring provincial squads.
ReplyDeletePretty sure they would make some huge coin off it.
***Dieve*** what italian soccers frequently do on the pitch.
4-1 after two, eh ? Now there's a shocker.
ReplyDeleteAny scoring chances or can I just tell Dennis there weren't any?
SB - What would your Sask team look like? Something like this?
ReplyDeletePropp - Trottier - Howe
Gillies - Federko - Fleury
Olmstead - Lach - Schmautz
W. Clark - Marleau - Buchberger
B. Morrow
Shore - McCrimmon
Manson - J. Neilson
T. Harper - Odelein
Baun - Redden
G. Hall
Bower
Resch
I dunno -- I think the AB team probably has more offensive talent, but SK's two-way ability is probably a bit better. Goaltending is pretty close. I could see either team pulling it out.
Don't know if anyone else caught that Johansen goal, but wow, that was a beaut.
ReplyDeleteConsw... No, no. W conned us.
Getzlaf?
ReplyDeleteDamn. No highlight of Hamilton's goal. Bastards.
ReplyDeleteMark Spector Sports
ReplyDeleteSportsnetSpec Mark Spector Sports
Gilbert scores 6th for EDM, 1st in 48 games. All this for $4M - for 3 more years! Gilbert & Horcoff — worst 1-2 contract punch in NHL?
8 minutes ago
Don't forget Khabibulin.
1-2-3
Panef...missing a few.
@Mike
ReplyDeletePretty close I'd probably have Rayner be the 3rd goaltender.
Fern Flaman would be on defense.
For the forwards I'd have a couple of the Bentley brothers as well as Bill and Bunny Cook. Maybe Bryan Hextall Sr. and Clint Smith if I can fit them.
And if I want grit it ain't buchy its Kocur.
Couple of two on ones, Bruce. Actually out-shooting.
ReplyDeleteSB -- yeah some of those guys are too before our time for me to guess, though they are HOF'ers right?
ReplyDeleteRayner as well -- but Cam Ward will probably be in that 3 spot by the time he's done.
Rivers -- I think Getz is a little too fresh to get on this list. Who does he take off? Marleau? Certainly not any of the first 3 C's....
This streak without a goal probably ends the NHL career of Reddox but lordy he's a better player than some of these big forwards.
ReplyDeleteThere should be a Bentley or three in there, and I think Wendel Clark would qualify on defense if depth is needed.
ReplyDeleteMaudite - Robbing the public purse - that phrase makes me think you are 60 years old, think all public servants are lazy criminals, that taxes and electricity prices are too high, and that the government should expand services.
ReplyDeleteHere's the other teams suggested from the thread I started at HF:
ReplyDeleteQuébec
Dickie Moore - Mario Lemieux - Maurice Richard
Joe Malone - Jean Beliveau - Guy Lafleur
Luc Robitaille - Newsy Lalonde - Mike Bossy
Michel Goulet - Marcel Dionne - Bernard Geoffrion
Henri Richard
Doug Harvey - Raymond Bourque
Denis Potvin - Pierre Pilote
Sprague Cleghorn - Serge Savard
Guy Lapointe
Jacques Plante
Patrick Roy
Martin Brodeur
British Columbia:
Paul Kariya - Joe Sakic - Glenn Anderson
Milan Lucic - Steve Yzerman - Cam Neely (jesus christ!)
Geoff Courtnall - Cliff Ronning - Greg Adams (94 Canucks connection)
Andrew Ladd - Peter McNab - Mark Recchi
Lynn Patrick, Muzz Patrick
Shea Weber - Willie Mitchell
Brent Seabrook - Dan Hamhuis
Jim Watson - Joe Watson
Doug Lidster
Tiny Thompson
Andy Moog
Carey Price
Ontario
Hull Sr. Gretzky Hull Jr.
F.Mahovlich P.Esposito C.Conacher
Joliat Morenz B. Cook
Denneny Apps Gartner
Kelly Orr
Potvin Robinson
Stevens Coffey
Dryden
T. Esposito
Who wins Ontario vs Quebec?? I think both AB and SK take BC ///
Michael: Yes, I was thinking Getzlaf over Marleau. Easily really.
ReplyDeleteNice shot by Linus
ReplyDeleteHe should be shooting more often.
Nice to see some patience on the PP.
crazy coach
ReplyDeleteJust wondering if you watched Marincin a lot what you thought of him. The reviewer at the Cult of Hockey said he didn't even PK. How good can he be defensively if he can't? Is he at all physical or soft like Gilbert?
Who in the NHL would you compare him to?
thanks
Anyone care to explain to me how to calculate G/60 and P/60? I know you can find them at Behind the Net, but I'd still like to know how to actually calculate them.
ReplyDeleteAnd man, the play by play guys on Shaw TV are such homers for RNH. I know that he's an exciting player, but there's other guys on the ice.
ReplyDeleteAnyone care to explain to me how to calculate G/60 and P/60? I know you can find them at Behind the Net, but I'd still like to know how to actually calculate them.
ReplyDeleteTake the number of goals/points scored, divide them by player's (ES, in the case of G/60ES or P/60ES, which is usually what we use) icetime, multiply by sixty.
Easy as ousiasal.
Oilers had some grade A chances - just no finish in this line-up.
ReplyDeleteand there's Backstrom
Team Nova Scotia:
ReplyDeleteSidney Crosby-me
Sidney Crosby-me
ReplyDeleteDon't say that to Dennis Bonvie without a facemask.
Team Atlantic Canada, to be fair:
ReplyDeleteCrosby-Glen Murray-Rick Vaive
Brad Richards-Mike Ryder- Dan Cleary
Bobby Smith-Mike McPhee-Gerard Gallant
Ryan Clowe-Ryan Malone-Steve Ott
Brad Marchand
Al McInnis-Don Sweeney
Colin White-Randy Jones
Adam Pardy-John Slaney
Rollie Melanson
Pokey Reddick
Oilersfan-Well right now, I would have to say that he's a very gangly version of Mike Green, so there is hope for him yet.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't on the #1 PK most times and when I saw him, the coach would throw him out for the last 20-30 seconds of a PK while changing on the fly. Rarely did I see him thrown out there for a draw.
I don't necessarily think it's a defensive short coming that can't be fixed with some work and good coaching. I know over the years the Cougars have put some good d-men in the league such as Chara, Hamhuis, Brewer, and even Souray. All of the latter there certainly looked a lot better than Chara when they were here, but who would you take now?
Part of the issue in PG is that it is for all intents and purposes, a frontier type town. It would be a tough town for a kid from Slovakia to grow up in.
Just my thoughts.
Anyone listening to Tencer and Brown?
ReplyDeleteTencer saying he feels quite sure Hemsky won't resign an extension before testing free agency, from the tea leaves he is reading,....is this news or I am out of the loop a bit?
@ Steve
ReplyDeleteI've partied with Bonvie a few years in a row at a local celeb golf event. Really fun guy actually and a professional-level liver.
A funny story related to that event. We head down to Digby Pines every year. Basically, the who's who of fun east coast celebs (Trailer Park Boys, Bruce Gouthro, Vaive, Craig McDonald, Bonvie) mixed with a bunch of super hot Olympic athletes (Heather Moise, Sarah Conrad) desperate to get funding from wealthy/drunk businessmen and a few very random ex-athletes from other parts of the country or continent.
The East Coaters get what this event is about and get obliterated from Sunday afternoon till Wednesday morning. The female olympians also know their role and tend to work it so they get invited back. A few of these non-local, male celebs buy in and become regulars like Al Woods but for the most part, they don't fit in. The business guys don't want some douchebag serious golfer from Toronto and they aren't afraid to let them know if they aren't pleased.
About 10 years ago the committee invited Ben Johnson of all people. On Day 1 the guys made an effort to have fun with the guy but by night's end word had gotten around that the guy was a serious prick. When he gets introduced on the first tee the next day in front of all the other celebs and players, my buddy grabs the mike, walks straight up to him and says:
"Before we can let you play, I'm going to have to ask you to piss in this cup".
@jake,
ReplyDeleteI've heard rumblings for a while, but if that is making the rounds now, it's probably true.
How much free agent value do you have averaging 65-70 games a year gives Hemsky for signing a sweet deal unless he plays 80 games next year. I think he will be motivated to put up numbers, but will his body let him ?
That said, what is the trade value at the draft is there for a re-habbing winger who won't be healthy til training camp ?
Sounds like a deadline deal for Hemsky.
KT: Beauty. I'm all about not punishing people relentlessly for past mistakes - I'm going into criminal defense law, after all, and as far as high level sprinting is concerned, you have to think that Ben Johnson was just the guy who had the misfortune to get caught - but if they're going to be pricks, that's fair game.
ReplyDeleteI hope Bonvie's liver is more recreational than professional; enough former hockey goons have gone that route.
SS: Thanks. Appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteCulkin: no problem. I neglected to mention that if you're calculating ES G/60 or P/60, you only count ES goals/points, in addition to only counting ES icetime. But you probably figured that out on your own.
ReplyDeleteCarpet bagger wants to move to Quebec City?
ReplyDeleteGo.
F@ck you. Just go.
I've said it before and I'll ask it again :
ReplyDeleteHow much does Darryl Katz, his family, his related companies including the Oilers, Oilers employees, etc., contribute to Howie Mandel and any other municipal council candidates?
There is no economically justifiable reason for working citizens to provide a playpen for Katz' children. The only possible reason is that the 12 (is it 13?) people voting in favor of such a theft from taxpayers are personally benefitting.
Follow the money.
Journalism one fkn oh one.
Everything else is bullsh!t.
Bookie
ReplyDeletelol! Not that old at all. Sadly the more time that passes, the more times the concerns over ethically utilizing public funds for public good seem to be neglected. By 60 I likely will be pretty tired of listening to talking heads spew trash about caring while watching time and time again their actions indicate the opposite.
This city is run by developers, for developers. Most likely are. The main difference is I haven't seen anything that closely resembles the complete disregard for an actual intelligent debate or a consideration of the obvious downsides attached.
in these parts.
ReplyDeleteSorry, bad at finishing thoughts on paper.
by the by:
ReplyDeleteI did watch the delayed backhand of deregulation hit every year. So far removed from the debacle that was natural gas deregulation, watching that 5 year span where 20% at a time the electricity was also deregulated (coincidentally going up almost exactly 20% per year), I couldn't help but chuckle. Seeing the VLT's still in Fort Mac (when they voted to remove them) you can't help but chuckle. Listening to dumb people lament at there being no Ralph Klein around these days, makes me chuckle. Watching Ralph a majority in his last election with no platform, made me chuckle. Watching Edmonton hand over power producing facilities for peanuts, makes me chuckle.
I will be fine. My view on government is that it is neccessary to protect the disabled and the dumb. Time and time again I watch as they cut off the dumb's fingers and the dumb explain to me how this is a good thing and I must be stupid to not see it...
I have a paper from at least three weeks ago (a sun but that honestly doesn't matter). Page two was talking about how we need a new arena. page three was talking about the government wasting money rennovating that old building down by the ledge. It was too funny. Likely 95% of the people that opened it probably didn't realize the irony. Just walked away bitching about government waste and losing the oilers in the same breath.
There will likely be some 'concessions' compared to Katz starting position. Great, so he may take us out to dinner before we get date raped. Awesome.
Maudite - So you liked the gas and electricity subsidies that made generation after generation ultra-inefficient users of energy? I guess you like to pick your subsidies as well.
ReplyDeleteAs I said,I am ok with people disliking the arena plan/deal whatever. I just get sick of Edmontonians who bitch and whine about their tax dollars. Seriously, property taxes are peanuts for anyone with a real job. Keep in mind that a good portion of your $2000-$4000 tax bill is actually for education taxes. I just hate that we cheap out on everything in this city. People want to live in a city built by the tax dollars of our grandfathers, but the reality is that that city is falling apart. One of the reasons its falling apart is because generations of bitchy Edmontonians were unwilling to pay enough to maintain it.
Look at what we are debating - lets assume a total public cost of $450 per Edmontonian spread over 20 years. It works out to just over $20 per year. Now, I am not saying that incrementalising it makes it go away (this is what loan stores do to get people to pay 2x as much for a tv), but sometimes the magnitude of these things overwhelms people because they only see the cost side, not the revenue side.
Perhaps they should do a referendum and simply put the issue forward like that - you get the guarantee of an NHL team for 20+ years and a spiffy new arena for $20 per capita per year.
Anyway, in a city that just spent $250 million on a interchange so that suburban dwellers can get to Home Depot a little easier and are considering spending $300 million to make some pawn shops and vaccuum store happy on SPR, I don't see the fuss about this one.
Art - Actually, it could be that some hardworking citizens are ok with contributing to a building that will have a lot of public value.
ReplyDeleteJumping to conclusions about corruption is pretty idiotic. Most of our council members could make a lot more money than they do if they left politics. It is a crappy job where all you do is put up with bullshit from people like you. I know a few councilors personally and these are generally people who dedicate their lives to improving their communities. I don't always agree with them, but I respect their work.
@Dennis: I did do the scoring chances. I couldn't figure out the secret handshake (game number, but not any of the ones that end with 1156) to get into Vic's black box that turns raw data into sophisticated end product. Once somebody helps me with that we're good to go.
ReplyDeleteBtw total SC were 21-13 EDM with the usual score effects, as the Oil generated 15 of the last 17 chances, which happens to correspond with the 26:47 that remained after the 4-0 goal. MIN wasn't too interested in scoring after that, nor even in defending it seemed at times. I guess they were bored too.
Bruce: thank you so much, sir. Can you take care of the Sat game as well? It's my birthday on Mon but I'm celebrating it tomorrow night and other than picking the Dys on the puckline I won't be that interested in the game.
ReplyDeleteThe number you need for this game was 21156. Bring up the games on NHL.com and it's always the last five digits.
Send the summary to mwhite.dking@nf.sympatico.ca
I'll post the results today.
For the Record, I've said so before and I'll say so again - I have no problem with the City of Edmonton putting money into this arena. But if they do, the revenues need to be distributed based on how much each party puts in. Cats only wants to pay 100M. Fine. That'll work out to a little less than 1/4 of the revenues.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have a problem with is the Patrick LaForge Railroad that's ramming this bullshit and misinformation down my throat while he's trying to rob me.
My sense is Katz will ultimately get what he wants, but they shouldn't overplay their hand here with the paying public. They'll still have to sell tickets after they get the new play pen.
ReplyDeleteOne thing to those who think Bettman won't let the team leave (given all the other league issues) - that may very well be. But don't forget movement is a double standard with the league (and his mentor David Stern).
He has no scruples about using a threat to move as a means for a new building. His track record is very consistent through the years. You can say EDM is paying into revenue sharing, but he'll do everything he can to get what he wants for his owners.
In other news, baseball realises it's corrupt again.
ReplyDeleteA-Rod makes 4 millions less than the ENTIRE TEAM of the Royals
Continuing on the theme of provincial teams, my friends and I did the current (for the time) rosters of all the provinces a couple of years back. Check them out here:
ReplyDeletehttp://illegalcurve.com/2009/08/01/review-of-the-2010-canadian-olympic-provincial-teams/
WG - Why precisely would you listen to Iveson on the matter?
ReplyDeleteBookie brought up Iveson so I used an example in which Iveson was rebuffed by the Katz group.
Iveson asked for a copy of a specific report that all NHL teams have to send to the league in order to determine revenue sharing.
The Katz group refused.
I imagine the conversation went something like:
LaForge: "We need all the revenues from a city owned arena because we lost money last year. We put in $100MM, you put in $350MM"
Iveson: "How much did you lose?"
L: "$3 Million dollars"
I: "$350M is a lot of money, can you provide your audited financial statements to verify your losses?"
L: "No, we are a private company"
I: "Well you want $350MM, we need this information"
L: "You have no desire to see Edmonton become a World Class City and we'll just remain a northern outpost with thinking like yours"
I: "You want an awful lot of money and revenue to cover a $3MM loss, I need to make sure this makes sense for everyone"
L: "If you don't give us this money we'll move the team and the terrorists win"
I: "I can't give away taxpayer money without a solid plan"
L: (covers ears)"BLAH BLAH BLAH, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, NOW EXCUSE ME I HAVE TO FLY TO HAMILTON AND QUEBEC CITY"
Seriously, the Oiler argument has been:
"We lost $3MM the year we spent to the cap and finished dead last in the league. We need the city to kick in $350MM, build us a new arena which the city will own (no property tax), but we get all the revenues.
We won't prove we lost money, you just have to believe us. The Oilers are not sustainable in one of the top 15 revenue generating markets in the NHL.
We will not guarantee anything other than the Oilers won't leave for 30 if we get our building"
You can't write this stuff.
One thing to those who think Bettman won't let the team leave (given all the other league issues) - that may very well be. But don't forget movement is a double standard with the league (and his mentor David Stern).
ReplyDeleteAlso don't forget he is likely going to have egg on his face over his attempts to keep the team in PHX. It may make him (and the owners)quite a bit less inclined the stop a move next time.
By the way, has anyone actually posted a link (as I requested above) to any of the media stories that point out Katz has actually threatened to leave? Or is this more getting upset about something that has not happened (yet)?
You can't write this stuff.
ReplyDeleteYou just did.
Iveson makes Jan Riemer look like a Republican. Anyone talking to him for more than 10 minutes would know that.
I expect Katz's real argument is "why can't we have the same deal as all the other teams in the league?"
You think Don Iveson is really interested in what he would call corporate welfare? If the Oilers were in fact losing money that he would find that as a reason to support the arena?
I expect his argument then would be why are we putting money into a money losing operation.
He is simply interested in building a case against it. Period.
Anyway, this is not going to get easier for anyone. As far as I can tell, the project is still $125 million short, even if the City votes to do the CLR and ticket tax.
On top of it all, we are about to go back into a boom, which will just increase construction costs.
I second the call for an actual news article with quotes and everything.
ReplyDeletenomnqt - latin for burden of proof
Ducey - I agree in that Reimer was an idiot and Iveson is a rational, well informed councilor - so, yes, in comparison Reimer looks like a republican.
ReplyDeleteI actually think Iveson is ok with the arena deal, but wants the private group to share the risk - pretty reasonable if you ask me.
I also think he is playing a bit of a political game that may help him get the support of anti-arena people in the future while not alienating arena supporters.
If he were the deciding vote and truly believed it was take it or leave it, I think he would vote to support it, however, he likely won't be the deciding vote and if he were, he might believe that voting this down and telling Katz to come back with a greater willingness to negotiate would be the best route forward.
Ducey,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about Iveson's politics and my politics have been described as just to the right of Atilla the Hun, so I'm not a fan of his in general.
That being said, he has asked very smart and pertinent questions of the Katz group, questions I'd like answered too. He has been rebuffed at every turn.
I'm a fairly pragmatic guy, so I take Iveson's work on the arena at face value. He's done more to get to the bottom of the questions than the others.
Also,
Giving taxpayer money to business' is left wing dogma, not right wing, although everybody does it when expedient.
Bar Q - Katz has never threatened to move the team, but has indicated that the Oilers will not be playing in Rexall place in 5 years time (or something like that). I don't know if he meant it as a veiled threat or not.
ReplyDeleteHis talking to Quebecor and Hamilton would appear to be more about arena building, federal funding, etc. than it would be about moving the team. A bunch of 'news reporters' and bloggers have jumped on every conversation that Katz has had with people from outside of Edmonton that he wants to move the team to 'enter name of city here'.
But bookie this is not new information. Why is the foaming at the mouth going on about this threat if it is not new information?
ReplyDeleteWG - you are right that this is traditional left-wing ground, but really politics now is so much more about expediency that it is ridiculous to refer to anything as right or left wing anymore. The labels simply don't fit modern politicians.
aloming - I'm a goin' to get my loom and go aloming
Bookie,
ReplyDeleteKatz has never really said anything.
However, LaForge has shot out veiled threats at every opportunity.
Example:
"Patrick LaForge, president and CEO of the Oilers, said Wednesday the team has no plans to move “for the moment.”
Article is here.
LaForge has always shot in veiled threats to move every chance he has.
Asshole.
LaForge is the asshole, not Bookie.
ReplyDeleteIveson makes Jan Riemer look like a Republican. Anyone talking to him for more than 10 minutes would know that.
ReplyDeleteAs somebody who's talked to him for considerably more than that, I take issue with that description. The man certainly approaches things from a left-leaning perspective, but he's far from an ideologue, and my personal suspicion is that if ever enters provincial politics it will be as a Liberal rather than an ND
TSN has a story about how ATL is for sale and has lost $130 million in 5 years. Hopefully the mayor of Quebec City will go piss up that tree for awhile and leave us alone.
ReplyDeleteIf Katz does want to play the musical chairs game, all the chairs might be taken soon - PHX to Winnipeg, ATL to Quebec.
There is also a "nice" story where they quote Belanger on the Yotes saying the players there don't really want to play in Winnipeg and they would rather stay or go to Quebec.
Guess we can cross him off the list as 3rd line center here next year.
BTW VDV played the third most min among Oilers F last night. He was 50% on 18 draws against a pretty good faceoff team. He looks slow but does seem to be able to cover down low in his own zone. He might be a solution at 4th line C.
nondry = wet
You think Don Iveson is really interested in what he would call corporate welfare? If the Oilers were in fact losing money that he would find that as a reason to support the arena?
ReplyDeleteI suspect that he wouldn't. Does that somehow invalidate his point?
but he's far from an ideologue, and my personal suspicion is that if ever enters provincial politics it will be as a Liberal rather than an ND
ReplyDeleteHe will be running for mayor next election. I have spoken to councillors who have been shocked at his views behind closed doors.
I have spoken to councillors who have been shocked at his views behind closed doors.
ReplyDeleteI put it to you that they're easily shocked.
Oilers sign Mark Arcobello
ReplyDeleteThe Katz Groups has been publicly shocked by his requests for information about the Oilers revenues.
ReplyDeleteDoes that somehow make the man look bad? Or the Katz group look good?
I appreciate what Iveson has brought to the table - he wants transparency. So far, that's a hell of a lot better than what KatzGroup has brought - veiled threats, bullshit, doublespeak and demands.
I'll trust a man who shows some integrity regardless of how he rates on the political spectrum over someone who acts like a snake.
FPV - re: the Royals vs. Rodriguez, So what? If the Royals wanted to compete they could. Just like the Pirates and every other team of that ilk. The fact is their owners think they can make money fielding a crummy team and spending nothing rather than fielding a good one and spending a bunch. That's no one's fault but their own.
ReplyDeleteL: "If you don't give us this money we'll move the team and the terrorists win"
ReplyDeleteAh man this is great....
Per Whitney's Twitter:
ReplyDeleteBy the way I couldn't be more excited about the possibility of playing for the Oilers in a new arena downtown. The city needs it!
@Dennis: I sent you the scoring chance stuff, just verifying that here in case the email goes astray.
ReplyDeleteI have spoken to councillors who have been shocked at his views behind closed doors.
ReplyDeleteLOL -- if they were Tony Caterina and Kerry Diotte, that's just another up arrow beside Iveson's name!
LMHF: There's a very select club of teams who can afford players like Rodriguez.
ReplyDeleteDon't know Don Iveson and don't care what political brand he may or may not represent. But if he's protecting my interests as a taxpayer, then three fkn cheers.
ReplyDeleteThe corporate-welfare-advocating prick who currently wears the mayor's robes could be Liberal Progressive Rastafarian for all I care and he'd still be a self-dealing bald prick.
@Bookie the Shill:
ReplyDeleteIf you're OK with your tax money being used to subsidize a billionaire's worksite, you can pay my share. Thanks.
If your politician friends are unhappy with their pay rate, they can quit or not stand for re-election. Don't expect me cry a river of tears because they think they're underpaid. Jeebus.
Well if you're all so pissed, get signs and go in the streets.
ReplyDeleteDid that Thursday
No way they're going to move the team. If anything, we may see an owner switch.
ReplyDeleteBut I can't blame Katz for firing a few dirty shots re: the arena debacle.
I can't understand why there can't be negotiation ongoing as per the amount he's putting in and the percentage of revenue tied up to paying off bond.
I also can't believe the city would pass up negotiating a decent arena/revitalization deal due to conflicts of interest involving Northlands.
Both sides are acting like knuckleheads.
For all the continued bleating on the arena debate, not one of you has considered the alternatives.
ReplyDeleteChief among them is a massive renovation of Rexall Place which would likely cost in the neighborhood of $250 million with the cost being borne 100 percent by taxpayers.
I know it's the Edmonton way to keep putting lipstick on a pig and heading out for the prom but surely, a positive approach to negotiating a deal that works for Edmonton is preferable.
Unfortunately, there is another stakeholder here that is going to be contrarian and they are a very powerful group who will go to the wall to protect their sinecure.
Northlands.
I will guarantee you that any deal negotiated with the Katz group will be subject to a plebiscite and it will be defeated.
Then what?
Then what?
ReplyDeleteYou stop posting.
Woodguy: I don't know how to feel about the Arcobello signing. He's been a good foot soldier for the Barons this year, but someone should temm Tambo he's got a 50 contract limit, no?
ReplyDeleteHay Stevo, Lander needs his contract this year...
Art - I don't know that they think they are underpaid, what I am telling you is that I think the position is underpaid. Its a multibillion dollar corporation and we pay the people who run it about the same as school principle. Its simply stupid.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am saying is that you are accusing them of corruption and I think that it demonstrates your ignorance of the situation. You jump to attacks and accusations as opposed to laying forth logical arguments.
I doubt its the involvement of Katz that bothers you. You probably just prefer it when others pay your way in society for you.
Also Art, don't worry, I won't lose any sleep when a ignoramus coward who can't afford his tax bill calls me a shrill.
ReplyDeleteThe taxes in this city are so freaking inconsequential I can't understand why someone would care about an additional $20 a year, but if that's too much for you, I guess you might want to look at your life choices and think about how you could have done a bit better.
LT - sorry - respect left the room when Art started accusing others of being corrupt and/or being a shill.
Monster night for OKC, with a 7-0 win over the Rockford IceHogs (what a name...)
ReplyDeleteSome interesting stats:
Tanner House: 1G-1A-2Pts +2
Colin McDonald: 2G-0A-2Pts +3 (36 goals in 76 games for this one)
Milan Kytnar: 1G-1A-2Pts +2
Smarmy Boss said...
ReplyDeleteThen what?
You stop posting.
Great retort...hope you didn't spend too much time developing your position.
No I didn't. Read a couple of your posts and it was the first thing to come to mind hth.
ReplyDeleteBookie,
ReplyDeleteI had written a longer response but for some reason the interwebb chose to swallow it while trying to log in here.
I'm glad you can afford tax increases and happily will subsidize rich folk. Arguement still remains, is this the best use of public funds. As per our previous discussion, I can as well but I would prefer to use money to subsidize elderly and poor helping them to afford their bills.
Sure public representatives don't get huge money but they seem to line up to do the job. Why? IMO The subsiduary benefit of deciding policy, law and directing public funds have some pretty solid benefits. Watching all the real estate dissapear around Boyle street just prior to the plan to pump a bunch of money into the area to revitalize it, watching south edmonton common pop up and then announcements to run the LRT straight there toot sweet + a publicly funded overpass to put people into it. You can't seriously buy into the vast majority of people in the game doing it for the love. If you can, I'll take two of whatever you're having.
Bringing up the fact that the city assumed all the costs on other infrastructure like that overpass does nothing to advance the arguement that they should continue to do similar type things. (Kind of counters it actually).
Ivenson is not the boogey man. I would be he is likely one of the only councillors that didn't receive direct funding from Katz to run his campaign or have captial interest in any surrounding real estate. That crazy pinko nazi bastard!!!
For the record I'm a fiscally conservative socialist. I don't like burning money but I am more tolerant of waste on the side of the have nots. Like yourself, I'm paid enough I will do alright regardless. Prefer that there is a net on the bottom so we don't have to hide in gated communities rather than want to live in one.
1. Is there anyone here against the proposition that the Oilers show their books to city officials?
ReplyDelete2. Is there anyone here against the following idea? IF the city pays for the large part of the arena, then the Oilers must show their books to the city and an independant auditor. If the Oilers make a certain level of revenue (say above leage average) and/or a certain level of profit (either league average or above a reasonable rate of return on investment), the team has to kick some money back to the public to pay them back.
If you're against that, you're in favor of the possibility -some would say strong likelihood- of giving Katz money for nothing. Why would you do that. Offer help, bt only if it's really needed (you check the books) and require that the person you're helping pay you back IF they can do so easily. (Normally, you require people to pay you back, regardless, but at least have Katz pay you back if the team is doing well.)
Why the fuck is Katz not talking to a bank like Joe Businessman down the street?
ReplyDeleteOr is he already financing his portion--the $100M?
In other words is he really only putting up $25M?
Spoiler
ReplyDeleteWhen you finance something through a bank you have to pay it back with interest. So how exactly would Katz only be putting up $25M if he chose to finance his share?
This is a good example of what bookie is talking about. How Katz chooses to pay the money he has committed to the arena has absolutely no effect on the city of Edmonton or its taxpayers. The amount he contributes certainly does, the payment method does not.
So why bring it up? It has nothing to do with whether a new arena is good for Edmonton or not. It adds nothing to the debate other than confusion and wrongly implies that Katz is screwing the taxpayer if he talks to a bank. What are you trying to accomplish by raising this point?
Marc,
ReplyDeleteSince when was this discussion pre-eminently about whether or not an arena is a good thing? I don't doubt that a new arena would be very fine. If Katz wants one, I think he should go ahead and build it.
I'm surprised anyone would disagree, actually.
But I fail to see how that fact should place the City in the arena development and ownership business.
You see, when it is your skin in the game and that skin of yours is beholden to the holder of the purse strings--who you owe--you tend to be a little more diligent about things. Cost overruns don't get out of hand. Deadlines are met and kept. Quality control is better enforced. The nitty-gritty is handled. And you won't build more house than you can afford.
When it is other people's money, and you are the receiver of the project's future revenues, there is incentive to do the exact opposite.
And that slippery-slope $20 property tax argument is especially hilarious.
Now none of this means that an arena is a bad idea. But once it has been decided an arena is a good idea, how we get from point A to point B becomes very important.
lunch at the hostel and the coffee at laggans. love the lake.
ReplyDelete..and that's for the lake louise post
ReplyDelete..which this is.
ReplyDeletethis team has drove me crazy.