We need to hold on to these memories, because some games have a bad feel hours before game time.
--
Just as Ryan Smyth once wore #10 for the Edmonton Oilers, these early days for the rebuild will one day become a distant bell.
The rest of this winter is more about Couturier, Larsson, RNH, Landeskog and Strome (not in that order) than about winning tonight against Vancouver. Which is good news for Oilers fans, because if it was about winning we'd have a heavy snowfall warning in effect by now.
--
Tom Renney is a stubborn kind of fellow and it may be paying off a little. Andrew Cogliano is still miles from being a dependable center, but his line played the tough unit from the Islanders last night and came out on top. Credit to Dustin Penner for being the straw that stirs the drink, but the entire line (Brule-RW) was doing some good things last night.
--
Rob Schremp made a wonderful play in the defensive end early last night. He speed is still a concern, but he's scoring goals and may have a Walt McKechnie career. Good for him.
L.T,
ReplyDeleteYou put Robbie Schremp in your original post? Must be trying to direct the gaze away from the game.
I'll help again.
1) Shawn Horcoff is an effective #1 Center
2) Craig MacTavish is a very good coach.
3). The Oilers should draft for need rather than BPA with the first rounder this year
Your welcome.
Hahahahaha!
ReplyDeleteI swear I didn't see BD's post when I made mine.
Beauty.
lol. Good stuff, guys. I actually thought Schremp played well last night, credit where due. He's never going to be a guy you can count on and I always thought he'd need an expansion draft to get a job.
ReplyDeleteBut the Islanders are kind of a walking expansion draft so there you go. Cream rising to the top, kind of.
Bottom end of both the Isles and Oiler roster look expansion draftish.
ReplyDeleteCanucks are the best team in the NHL right now. It really pains me to say that.
They have a .731 pts% right now. 2nd best in the league is PHI with .688.
Oilers clock in at 28th with .423
Van's roster is pretty solid top to bottom and it seems they finally figured out they needed to load up the back end.
The pisscutter twins taking cap friendly contracts will keep Van in the top of the NW for the foreseeable future.
To knock them off either COL will need to spend more $ to fill out their roster with quality vets or the Oiler managment will have to figure out how to fill out their roster with quality vets.
In 3 years the NW might have 3 of the top 10 teams in the league.
Schremp was also 13-5 on the dot, which is impressive even against us. Also does a bunch of little things (very focused practice, friendly with the fans, on the ice first) that i appreciate and would as a teammate.
ReplyDeleteNucks will continue to be overrated; i guess that's fine. Suits the fanbase.
great minds Woodguy, great minds.
ReplyDeleteA lot can happen between now and July but the Canucks look pretty good. Their D is really really deep. Maybe no #1 stud Dman but a ton of depth. And Malholtra and Torres have added a ton to their bottom six forwards.
Chicago has absolutely been unable to become untracked, everytime they look like they are about to get it together they fall back. SJ is the same and I really don't believe in Dallas.
Right now its Wings and Canucks in the West imo. A long long way to go but Vancouver has a nice club.
//Hall flying down the wing like a modern Glenn Anderson, Gagner making sublime passes, Eberle making the right play and Pääjärvi going wide and finding another gear //
ReplyDeleteHall and Gagner both fighting to get to the front of the net, enduring the hacks and slashes of the opposition defensemen, and the puck never arrives because Hemsky ignores them as he goes for a leisurely skate around the net.
I thought something was making my Spidey Sense tingle.
ReplyDeleteThat'll be those Sasha Grey videos.
Seems like crapping on Ales Hemsky became "en vogue" somewhere along the way, a la people complaining about Horcoff, Penner and Gilbert.
ReplyDeleteSomehow, when your team lacks experienced NHL players who can play a complete game and have a positive impact on winning hockey games, identifying four of the five guys on the roster that actually fit this description as "problems" (Ryan Whitney being the lone exception) doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
HBomb,
ReplyDeleteWith Hocov out, Traktor & others need someone else to crap on so Hemsky's now in vogue.
We're famous for throwing players to the dogs who don't measure up to our standards of perfection. God forbid they ever make a mistake.
Godot - Holding the puck because there are no passing or shooting lanes is the proper choice. If you'd like to join the shouting masses who wouldn't know good offensive play if it whacked them in the forehead, and believe that pucks magically travel through shins and skates be my guest, but the sequence you are thinking of was patient and proper.
ReplyDeleteIt was a fun game for the first little while, and then nice to see the PK deliver the win.
ReplyDeleteThe group up in the ZZ Tops (section 300's, north of the old ZZ section) was positive and repsectful.
And, I'll admit to some welcome deja vu when seeing all that orange on the ice! I bet Rod delivered the goods over the airwaves as well.
Vancouver is on top of the standings - big deal, I say. Their goalie refused to come out for 1st star honours last night, after gassing a goosegg in the waning seconds. is this a guy you want leading you in the showdown for Stanley?
prediction:The Oil will punish these petulant preeners tonight. Hall goes big, and Cogs continues to impress.
I also anticipate Omark getting many rough Swedish massages, similar to the treamtent given by Detroit's Tre Kronors.
3). The Oilers should draft for need rather than BPA with the first rounder this year
ReplyDeleteSeeing that they need everything, that should be easy.
Turning JVM into something useful at the end of Feb is going to be tougher with his injury relapse.
Langenbruner to Dallas for a conditional third rounder.
ReplyDeleteLoophole Lou making a little cap space to fix the Devils a bit?
ReplyDeleteFingers crossed.
Hall and Gagner both fighting to get to the front of the net, enduring the hacks and slashes of the opposition defensemen, and the puck never arrives because Hemsky ignores them as he goes for a leisurely skate around the net.
ReplyDeleteI know the play you are talking about.
If the best passer on the team, and a guy Wayne Gretzky called "one of the best passers in the NHL" decides not to pass, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Hemsky:
2.58pts/60 5v5 1st on Oilers
+0.17/60 5v5 2nd on the Oilers
+5.5 RelCor 4th on the Oilers
Yeah, he's the problem.
"Vancouver is on top of the standings - big deal, I say. Their goalie refused to come out for 1st star honours last night, after gassing a goosegg in the waning seconds. is this a guy you want leading you in the showdown for Stanley? "
ReplyDeleteYep.
He got skewed in the media over that little pissing episode (at least, the Team1040 was hacking on him). It's become the rule that he gives away his game stick to a lucky fan when he's the first star. Big surprise: the guy is a melodramatic emo. Luongo is who we thought he is.
I suspect Cory Schneider will get the start tonight, so you won't get the thrill of swan dives and emo-fueled theatrics
Hbomb: Where did I say a bad word about Hemsky? I just made an observation about what I saw on the ice yesterday and too often.
ReplyDeleteLMHF#1:
//Holding the puck because there are no passing or shooting lanes is the proper choice. If you'd like to join the shouting masses who wouldn't know good offensive play if it whacked them in the forehead, and believe that pucks magically travel through shins and skates be my guest, but the sequence you are thinking of was patient and proper.//
There was a shooting lane. There was a passing lane. It is called putting the puck on net. You know, the destination if you want to play EFPH instead of ELPH. All those pucks bouncing off our defensemen's skate into our goal are from good hockey teams putting the puck on net, and having traffic at the net.
Hemsky can go for his leisurely skate around the net when the Oilers have nobody there. But Hall and Gagner were there, in the paint, waiting for the puck to be put on net. They were playing EFPH, but Hemsky is still playing ELPH.
Hemsky is injury prone because he insists on going mano-a-mano with the defenseman all the time believing that the only way you can win in by physical skill. His physical skill at beating the defenseman mano-a-mano would be enhanced if he tried beating the defenseman mentally on occasion, by mixing in chip-n-chase. Western conference defensemen know Hemsky is never going to chip and chase, so Hemsky is constantly putting himself at a disadvantage and in harm's way because he is NOT using his brain. More ELPH, instead of EFPH.
We saw EFPH from the Red Wings...pucks at the net, chip-n-chase, and interference all over the ice. They don't mind winning ugly by making simple good enough plays, rather than playing ELPH looking for the perfect play.
"With Hocov out, Traktor & others need someone else to crap on so Hemsky's now in vogue."
ReplyDeleteActually that's not correct.
Ripping on Hemsky is pretty idiotic so what Horcoff groupies do is lump Horc and Hemsky together and just like that that Horc hate becomes less credible.
I don't think I've ever bitched about Hemsky but Horcoff on the other hand is norhing but a scrub.
5.5M Marty Reasoner.
Temujin you should have heard Neil Macrae tear a new one for Luongo on the mighty NW yesterday morning.
ReplyDeleteI love seeing Canucks fans in the spring. I always stock up on athletic tape for the inevitable Luongo playoff collapse and Nucks fans spraining their ankles jumping off the bandwagon!
If Hbomb was born in Calgary he was argue that Daymond Langkow is a top 15 center in the NHL.
ReplyDeleteFurther with regards to Hemsky.
ReplyDeleteIt was at about the equivalent point in Steve Yzerman's career that Bowman threatened to trade his a$$ to the Senators unless Yzerman stopped playing ELH, and began playing EWH.
Hemsky is a good player, but unless he begins fixing the flaws in his game, he will be a detriment to this team and the development of the young players going forward.
Godot - Detroit doesn't win by flipping random pucks towards the net to get blocked. They are patient and make smart hockey plays.
ReplyDeleteGoal #1 - Good puck movement taking advantage of the Oilers playing way too low in the zone, point shot with 2 DET guys screening. Good shooting lane with teammates supporting.
Goal #2 - DET outworks us the Oilers thoroughly and takes advantage of Cogliano's poor defensive positioning. Clear shot.
Goal #3 - Rush by Draper past weak D by Brule and the D-pair, complimented by a smart give and go. Clear shot.
Goal #4 - After multiple picks and confusing the Oilers, Bertuzzi creates a passing lane and attempts to pass through a clear zone to a wide open Filppula. His pass is off-target and deflects in off a skate. Still intended as a skill play and 51 doesn't miss if it happens as designed.
Goal #5 - Peckham wipes out creating an odd man situation and too much room between Gilbert and the puck-carrier. Seeing Gilbert screen his own goalie and Khabibulin in a weak position, Helm shoots across his skating path into the open corner.
In all of these sequences, there were open lanes created by either planned plays or by exploiting a mistake. None of them were simply "pucks on net".
I don't know where this misconception of DET playing a simple game came from. They've had some of the most complex scheming and skating lines for years now.
"I always stock up on athletic tape... "
ReplyDeleteI'll take three please. Do you have change for a $50?
Sad that I still have a feeling of impending doom. The Canucks have been largely injury-free, so something has got to give.
also, "fucking the dog for Landeskog." is pretty damned funny.
ReplyDelete"I don't think I've ever bitched about Hemsky but Horcoff on the other hand is norhing but a scrub.
ReplyDelete5.5M Marty Reasoner."
And, not only that,
Reasoner is much funnier than Horcoff.
That one about the face-off in the corner just slayed me.
Hemsky is a good player, but unless he begins fixing the flaws in his game, he will be a detriment to this team and the development of the young players going forward
ReplyDeleteHemsky a detriment?
At least when Trak rips on 10 he starts from a place where an argument could be made.
You start from nowhere with an apocryphal story about Yz and bowman and randomly apply it to the best player on the Oilers.
Glad to see there is good thread material, because the game will be crap.
I'm going to agree with Godot that Hemsky does some dumb shit with the puck. He also makes things harder for himself at times when a simpler play would work better.
ReplyDeleteThe man has some warts.
I agree that Hemsky isn't the be-all, end-all of hockey players. His numbers are good, but they could be great if he noticed that he gets mauled by Western Conference d-men more than he should be.
ReplyDeleteOverall, making a case for Hemsky being "detrimental" to the team would be a tough haul. But I don't think there's any doubt that he has some habits which are at times detrimental to the play on the ice. I think on the whole though, his balance sheet looks pretty darn good.
ReplyDeletePat, have you heard this? Spurs to get Beckham from LA on 2 month loan? What are they trying to do, buy their way into Europe with old, slow mid-fielders?
ReplyDelete@ Flamingpavelbure
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2009/11/14/the-1999-nhl-draft-scouts-vs-math/
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2009/11/15/the-2000-nhl-draft-scouts-vs-math/
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2009/11/16/the-2001-nhl-draft-scouts-vs-math/
Every player has warts, including Hemsky. Heck a lot of Hall of Famers had warts - Paul Coffey anyone?
ReplyDeletespOILer put it best - whats the balance sheet overall? I would say argue that its very positive and that on a team where he is not the focal point of the offence, more of a cog in the machine that is, that he might be even more effective than he is now. The team has been shitty for years and in those years its basically been 83 as the entire show up front, him and Penner anyhow.
The point will be moot if his contract demands are ridiculous and I've made it clear that I would prefer that they sign both 27 and 83 but I would bet that when they talk extension that 27 will show no interest and 83 will want to sign and that will be the decider. Penner strikes me as a fairly bright guy and my guess is he would prefer not to spend anymore time paying for what is now a loser franchise.
jmo of course. Anyhow if 27 walks they'll sign Hemsky. Let both go and we'll be waiting a while longer for this team to get any good.
spOILer - oh its ridiculous, maybe Tambo is moonlighting for Spurs
ReplyDelete"but but he won a bunch of titles with Man U."
Bleah.
The conversation is dying.
ReplyDeleteHere's the only way to fix it.
1. When discussing a player (or coach or team or whatever) be as specific as possible. Say "Hemsky is one of the top 10 RW's in the league" or "Hemsky is not one of the top 35 or 40 forwards in the league." That's something we can debate.
If one person says "Hemsky can be a detriment" and someone else says "I disagree with ripping on Hemsky" and someone else says "he isn't the be all and end all" there's no real debate that can be had. All these positions are mutually consistent in content. They only vary in tone.
Obviously any player can be criticized and has flaws. Every player in the NHL is doing something right. SO vague appraisals will always be true. And instead of debating content, we'll be spitting emotion, positive and negative, back and forth.
Without specificity there's just a lot of innuendo and implication. For example, "Horcoff is a 5.5M Reasoner." Well since it's coming from Traktor we know it's a criticism. But what does it mean? Horcoff is no better than Reasoner? Horcoff is the same player type as Reasoner but is overpaid? How much is he overpaid. (That's interesting and specific. I'd argue only about 0.75MM.)
2. Give carefully stated reasons for what you want to get us to believe. If you don't haave well articulated evidence, what are we going to discuss?
So... did nobody see MPS leapfrog the Islander last night? Or, possibly: did people see it and not find it as funny as I did?
ReplyDelete@ Woodguy
ReplyDeleteas talented Hemsky is, it seems that it is hard for other players to play with him. He does a lot of skating around and it takes time for other players to adjust to him.
One of the best things a team-mate can say about another is that he is easy to play with and I have never heard that about Hemsky.
That said he is a beauty and helps us in a big big way. With all his faults he is not a part of the problem.
//spOILer put it best - whats the balance sheet overall? I would say argue that its very positive and that on a team where he is not the focal point of the offence, more of a cog in the machine that is, that he might be even more effective than he is now. The team has been shitty for years and in those years its basically been 83 as the entire show up front, him and Penner anyhow.//
ReplyDeleteWhen Hemsky was the only show in town, his assets significantly outweighed is flaws.
But with Hall, Eberle, Paajarvi, Omark, and perhaps Courturier, the Hemsky scale will tilt somewhat.
In a capped world, mistakes in the bottom six forwards are fixable. Mistakes in the second line forwards are problematic. Mistakes in the top line forwards are fatal.
Yzerman's was Detroit's unquestioned star forward. Yet Bowman insisted he fix the flaws in his game or else.
Hemsky's solo play was acceptable when he was the only talent on the team. His solo play is now a potential detriment when there is abundant talent requiring team play.
Gagner was/is adjusting his game for Hemsky. He was at the net in the blue paint. Hemsky was not adjusting his game for Gagner. He still went on a solo jaunt around the net instead of putting the puck on net.
Horcoff is overpaid by a million. He is much better than reasoner and it is wrong to argue that they are alike. Reasoner is an inferior version of Horcoff and a 3rd linr center at best. Horc is a pretty good 2nd line center and with adequate wingers more than capable to shutting down the toughs
ReplyDeleteLMNOP,
ReplyDeleteThe Draper goal I'm sad to remember it was in fact Reddox who pulled a "Brule" on that one, not the man whose name honors that manoeuvre.
I was surprised - for a guy who's no hell on the o-zone to glide thru the slot and watch his check go by and not even react. It was like... Deja-Brule.
[Sorry, that was so bad I couldn't resist it]
I'll start:
ReplyDeleteSchremp is a decent "tweener" someone who would be an AHL callup on most teams, but can play a good role on the Islanders. He can bring some offense, but gives too much away to play regular minutes well. His current success is buoyed by an unsustaibable SH%. (a la Cogliano) This is more than I expected, and he is still just young enough for there to be a small chance (15%?) for him to improve to become a decent top 9 regular on most NHL teams. (Salary could be a problem though. We'll see.)
Hemsky is an excellent 1st line RW. among the top 30 forwards in the league. His contract is a big underpay. He could and will command about 5.75-6.5MM. He's a 70 point regular guy who can play tough minutes. It's frustrating that he doesn't score 30 goals, but that would make him earn a lot more. His injury problems are becoming concerning and will be the X-factor in his future.
Horcoff is a very good center. He doesn't bring as much offense as the top 20 centers in the NHL, but he provides excellent two-way play, and can PK well. (Amongst the top 40 centers in the league for sure. When healthy, amongst the top 30.) When healthy he should earn 60 points a year with PP time. (He should get less PP team if Gagner improves.) Unfortunately, he's overpaid by about 0.75-1.25MM. Again, injuries are a serious worry.
Oh, and the Oilers are one of the three worst teams in the league. Injuries to a too-shallow forward corps, the worst D-corps in the league, and very inconsistent play from Khabi, and a poorly coached PK, are making a top 3 pick, like, 85% likely.
But Marty Sakic was such a better quote than Horcov.
ReplyDeleteI agree w/Woodguy. This thread will be much better than the game.
Waiting to see who will beat "f***ing the dog for Landeskog".
Whoops, I forgot to state my reasons. Those were supposed to be specific claims to debate.
ReplyDelete//2. Give carefully stated reasons for what you want to get us to believe. If you don't haave well articulated evidence, what are we going to discus//
ReplyDeleteI was very specific.
I gave a specific description of a specific play. No one has defended Hemsky by saying he made the right play by skating around the net.
Nobody wants to address the specificity of the criticism implied in the observation.
godot10: Just so you're aware, that wasn't meant as a shot directly at you - criticizing Hemsky's play is fine by me, as he's just as open to criticism as anyone else on the roster.
ReplyDeleteA lot of other people are suggesting we get rid of him though. That, I can't get behind one bit until I see hard evidence that there's no chance he'll consider a contract extension here.
Traktor: go away troll. Adults are talking.
ReplyDeleteRipping on Hemsky is pretty idiotic so what Horcoff groupies do is lump Horc and Hemsky together and just like that that Horc hate becomes less credible.
ReplyDeleteJust because someone has enough intelligence to recognize the value of Shawn Horcoff as a hockey player doesn't make them a groupie. If we want to talk about fanboy-love, how about comparing Andrew Cogliano to Ryan Callaghan?
I don't think I've ever bitched about Hemsky but Horcoff on the other hand is norhing but a scrub.
Yes, because scrubs score more than 50 points a season in the NHL.
5.5M Marty Reasoner.
This says all that anyone ever needs to know about how little Traktor knows about the game.
As I said above (and many times before), run along you, grown-ups are talking.
If only we could quantify too-shallow, worst, inconsistent, and poorly coached, maybe I could get a handle on this whole number-y conversation idea.
ReplyDeleteDo we suck? Well we're not two touchdowns out of 29th like last season. Not yet! And man I hate losing to the Canucks. Big hate it, like size 12.
So I'm going curling tonight.
Trade idea: Tambellini for Gagner, straight up?
If Hbomb was born in Calgary he was argue that Daymond Langkow is a top 15 center in the NHL.
ReplyDeleteI can see what you're trying to imply here, troll.
Somewhere, in that puny brain of yours, you seem to think I once argued Horcoff was a top 15 center in the NHL.
Not once have I made that argument - in fact, I've explicitly stated that even on his best day, Horcoff wouldn't be better than the 20th best center in the league (as I believe that, at any time, there's 20 of those stereotypical "true first line centers") in the league.
That doesn't change the fact that he's a quality player and can play at both ends of the rink, which is not something that many of our other centermen can say (only Sam Gagner has an argument that he's progressing in that direction).
However, by mentioning him at the same time as Hemsky and Penner, your basic low-IQ interpretation is that I'm somehow implying the guy is on par with guys like Datsyuk, which isn't the case.
None of this behavior surprises me, considering the source and it's past track record for being an outright jackass.
Godot,
ReplyDeleteDon't you think isolating a player's eval down to one play a little non-productive?
It would then become a match of listing plays back and forth where he did something well and did something poorly. When would that argument end?
We already have numbers that encompass the whole picture and in the case of Hemmer, they're pretty darn good numbers.
With regards to Hemsky and along the lines of what spOILer is saying with regards to "looking at one play", there's an interesting bit of discussion in Moneyball when they talk about baseball's error statistic and how it is flawed when it comes to being the primary "traditional" method for evaluating defensive ability. In a nutshell, the error doesn't work because, in order to make an error, you have to do something right in the first place to be in position to at least have a shot at making the play.
ReplyDeleteHow does this apply to Hemsky? Well, the guy has been known to be among the leaders in terms of turnovers. Is this a knock against him? Or, perhaps is it just a by-product of his ability to gain possession of the puck and have the opportunity to create?
I can remember many Hemsky turnovers, but I'm having a hard time remembering one that directly cost us a goal against. I'll take the occasional frustrating play as a by-product of all the good that he does bring to this hockey team.
Based on play alone, the guy is a keeper. If someone wanted to make an argument about letting him go due to injuries and questions about reliability, a case could be built. But that his style of play is a "detriment" to the team? Personally, I can't buy it.
Pat, re: Spurs (sorry the rest of you)
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I can think of is they need some help on set plays and secondary scoring and are thinking of using Beckham more as a super-sub and for depth.
I don't know your side well enough to know if they're suffering on free kicks and corners and lack that depth, but there had better be some speed in the center of your mid-field and behind him, or else teams are gonna be coming down your right side every time he's on the pitch.
If you're still in both Cup draws, they might just be getting him because of the density of the schedule so they can rest guys, dunno.
Hbomb said:
ReplyDelete"Adults are talking."
Being an adult doesn't mean much - a fanboy will always be a fanboy.
For reference go back and look at your old Horcoff is top 15 center arguments.
You even ranked him ahead of Backstrom "because he hasn't proved he can handle the toughs"
lol
If Detroit had the choice who do they sign?
Horcoff for 5.5 or Brendan Morrison at 750k
Buddy is overpaid by 3-4 million at minimum.
The same year "Horcoff shut down Joe Thornton in the playoffs" Cheechoo scored 56 goals. Keep living in the past folks.
Hemsky is a very gifted player. For most of his run with the Oilers there has not been a true sniper to compliment his skills and take advantage of his play making abilities.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone would like it if Hemsky shot more, but he is not a shoot first person. Does he over-handle the puck at times and frustrate? Yeah. But he's trying to give guys a chance to make a play.
While the injuries on the team are frustrating, I'm interested to see what happens with Hall and Hemsky on the same line - if any chemistry can be found between the two most obviously talented players on this team. Putting someone who is a shoot first forward (Hall) with a pass first playmaker could be worth keeping us all watching the rest of the season.
spOILer - well 'Arry wants him and 'Arry knows best as far as I am concerned. He's turned a middling run of the mill squad that has underachieved for years into a club that for the second straight year is serious quality.
ReplyDeleteSo while I don't like Beckham and never have really I trust the man in charge. He's earned that trust just as Tambo and Lowe have no rope at all with me.
Alice - I didn't like Brule's attempt at the opposition blue line. You're right that Draper skates past Reddox in the Oilers' zone.
ReplyDeleteBeing an adult doesn't mean much - a fanboy will always be a fanboy.
ReplyDeleteYes they will, such as you earlier this season still trying to say Cogliano is better than Gagner. Right.
For reference go back and look at your old Horcoff is top 15 center arguments.
As mentioned earlier, I never once argued such. You can look all you want and would never be able to produce such a quote from me. Once again, it's an example of you fabricating things.
You even ranked him ahead of Backstrom "because he hasn't proved he can handle the toughs"
And here's an example of you omitting context - the fact I made that statement after Backstrom's rookie year when he was NOT a top-20 center yet because no, he hadn't played against top level opposition - at which time I said that Horcoff and Backstrom were in the same second tier of centers that were not part of the elite class AT THAT TIME.
If Detroit had the choice who do they sign?
Horcoff for 5.5 or Brendan Morrison at 750k
Once again - context. You're comparing two guys signing two deals at two different times. This argument makes no sense.
Buddy is overpaid by 3-4 million at minimum.
Based on what? At the time he was signed, do you honestly think Horcoff would have taken a paycut from 3.6 million a season? If you do, you're even thicker than one could imagine. And even today, for a 50-60 point center who can play against anyone, there's no way he signs for less than 4 million cap hit a season, and that's being generous.
The same year "Horcoff shut down Joe Thornton in the playoffs" Cheechoo scored 56 goals. Keep living in the past folks.
Cheechoo's out of the NHL. Horcoff's still an NHL top-two-lines center. Trying to outdo your comparison of Horcoff to Reasoner and his career high of 31 points in a season in terms of bulk stupidity?
//Don't you think isolating a player's eval down to one play a little non-productive?//
ReplyDeleteDepends on whether one thinks my specific example is a metaphor or not.
I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong in five years, but I don't think I will.
People mostly don't change. They are what they are. Successful interventions like Bowman with Yzerman are rare. The Oilers don't have a Bowman to make the ultimatum in any case. So things will unfold as they will.
Hemsky is going to frustrate the hell out of Hall and Gagner. , when the puck never comes. Eberle is lucky that he mostly won't be on the same line.
Horcoff works with Hemsky, so if Horcoff gets the Hemsky duty, there is only the problem of finding a left wing who can be effective without touching the puck.
Gene tweets...
ReplyDeleteShawn Horcoff is on the ice and skating in full equipment..it's been four weeks since he hurt his knee..not playing but maybe not far off
Yay!
In 2008/2009 Dom Moore played the Horcoff role for the Leafs (played in the top 6 by default) and put up 41 points in 63 games which works out to 53 over a full season.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between a top 6 player and a scrub playing a top 6 role.
Oh, and an update on Ol' One Foot...
ReplyDeleteVandermeer day to day ankle again but not as serious as first ankle injury he just re-aggravated the same problem
In 2008/2009 Dom Moore played the Horcoff role for the Leafs (played in the top 6 by default) and put up 41 points in 63 games which works out to 53 over a full season.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between a top 6 player and a scrub playing a top 6 role.
There's also a difference between a guy hitting 41 points in 63 games and never counting more than 18 points in an NHL season and a guy who topped 50 points four years in a row.
Those with intelligence can recognize the distinction.
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ReplyDeleteHBomb, why do you even bother? When it comes to Horcoff, Traktor doesn't let little things like logic or facts get in the way.
ReplyDeleteI mean didn't BDHS get all of this rehash done in the first post?
Already had the Horcoff conversation at the beginning of this thread guys - no need to talk about him, Hemsky, Penner, Gilbert, MacT, Hall v Seguin, Rob Schremp, I think that's everyone.
ReplyDeleteWe've beaten these dead horses until there's nothing but a rusty stain on the pavement.
Here is a new question, or relatively new anyhow.
Lander is definitely coming over next year and it sounds like they have him pencilled in already.
I think we can all agree that Cogliano is gone.
Assuming that Horcoff and Gagner are 1/2 at centre do you start the season with Lander and Fraser or another kid (O'Marra/VDV) as your 3/4 centres or do you bring in someone with a little more oomph to play in one of those spots?? If so, who?
I think 4 is actually a very good LW for Hemsky once he learns to get into a shooting position and work on his one timer.
ReplyDeleteHemsky started dishing the puck to him to carry it in during the 3rd period of last nights game.
If Hemsky can get into a shooting position when 4 has the puck and vice versa, they could be deadly.
Ol' Marty Joe Horcov would be a good center for those two as he could come in late and clean up the garbage and be the conscience of the line so the other two can just go balls out.
89 hasn't played well with 83, they both try to do the same thing.
4-10-83
27-89-14
''Horcoff for 5.5 or Brendan Morrison at 750k
ReplyDeleteOnce again - context. You're comparing two guys signing two deals at two different times. This argument makes no sense''
Well not really. There's a Brendan Morrison every year in the NHL. Once Moore, once Higgins etc...
Sumoil: Thanks, kinda confirmed what I tought
LT: You should read those, (JW's) apparently only looking at boxcars is better than using scouts.
(Well in the end, it should be used as a complement but, it kinda shows that Math have a good shot at being better than scouts)
Thus me shooting the PPG arguement isn't horseshit.
The Barons recently signed a veteran AHL D-man.
ReplyDelete"The Oklahoma City Barons signed defenseman Bryan Helmer to a Professional Tryout Contract (PTO)...Helmer, a 6-1, 210-pounder from Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario is entering his 18th season as a professional. He has played each of the last two seasons with the Calder Cup champion Hershey Bears. As a professional, Helmer has played in 1,178 professional games, scoring 562 points (133-429-562). That includes 146 games at the National Hockey League level with the Phoenix Coyotes, St. Louis Blues, Vancouver Canucks and as recently as the 08-09 season with the Washington Capitals...In 982 AHL games, Helmer has recorded 513 points (120-393-513). His 393 assists stands as the most by a defenseman in AHL history, while his 513 points is six points shy of the AHL mark for points by a defenseman."
The full article is here:
http://okcbarons.com/index.cfm?fa=pressreleases&ra=showarticle&guid=4177c5ba-82e3-4e6c-b755-4ebdfac619bd
And in addition to that if they pick RHN or SC how does that impact this conversation? Do they go back to junior? If not then do they move Gagner and run with 10/RHN or SC instead? Or do they keep Gagner and run 10/89/Lander/the lottery pick?
ReplyDeleteNow there's a new question.
uni:
ReplyDeleteIf Horcoff was on waivers there wouldn't be a single claim.
My opinion of Horcoff is much closer to reality than this board.
Even if you cut his salary in half he is still paid 2M more than Brendan Morrison.
Even little kids know how to spell albatross.
BDHS: Even if they draft Couturier, I don't think they move 10 or 89 at this point, since center is an absolute black hole past Horcoff and Gagner on this club.
ReplyDeleteYou could build your top-nine around those three guys (Horcoff's line takes the toughs, Gagner's the secondary matchups, and feed Couturier's line the soft parade).
Given the pieces in place on the wings, I'm still of the belief that if they move a player, it will be a winger-for-a-defenseman scenario.
Even little kids know how to spell albatross.
ReplyDeleteUm, no they don't. Now you're even using lies figuratively.
Black Dog: I'd flush Fraser and go with O'Marra at 3rd C.
ReplyDeleteI believe given time he will be a good utility man. He's big, decent speed, and he uses his body properly, he knows where to go.
And it also creates internal competition, if Lander falters you still keep a chance of having a guy who could be N3.
VV's stats are just horrid for a 23 years old guy in the AHL. He's just going to fall off by himself.
godot said...
ReplyDeleteDepends on whether one thinks my specific example is a metaphor or not.
No, sorry, it doesn't. It would be countered by metaphors of good, and again be non-productive as opposing sides of the argument listed metaphors. And then there would be the further problem of assigning quality and weight to metaphors.
People mostly don't change. They are what they are. Successful interventions like Bowman with Yzerman are rare. The Oilers don't have a Bowman to make the ultimatum in any case. So things will unfold as they will.
We should fire all coaches in the NHL then. And this would also mean that Hemsky is the same player making the same mistakes and good plays at the same frequency as he did at 18. Which is pretty evidently not the case by both eye and stats. By this philosophy of yours, Peckham should have been playing 3 years ago and there's no point in developing players.
Pat, we'll have so much talent we should be icing Two teams...
ReplyDeleteI can't believe nobody bit on my Tambellini for Gagner gambit. Hell, our guy is v3.0 too, that should be worth a late draft pick.
and Fraser or another kid (O'Marra/VDV) as your 3/4 centres or do you bring in someone with a little more oomph to play in one of those spots?? If so, who?
ReplyDeleteI like giving 33's roster spot to Zenon Konopka.
He's a demon on dot (59.7% of 581 faceoff this year!) and can fight.
Management and coach want a fighter, here's one with some more tools than just his fists.
He plays the PK on NYI, but he's not that good at it.
He's 4th in TOI/60 4v5 among NYI forwards, but is a real outlier with 10.42 GA/60 4v5 whereas the other forwards cluster around 6 (and Josh Bailey is under 3!)
*the caveat is that if the Oilers must have a fighter on the roster, this is a good one. If they don't want a fighter, then better options exist, such as The Actual Marty Reasoner.
I wonder if they don't send the pick, if its RHN or SC, back to junior. Probably not based on how it appears they are putting this together.
ReplyDeleteOf course they might end up with neither of them.
Lots of possibilities there. If things break so that they get either of the two I would bet that they run with that kid, Gagner, Horcoff and then Lander as the fourth centre unless the Swede cannot handle it at all. My bet is that he could.
And then Fraser or O'Marra as the extra wheel. If they can cut bait on Fraser then they will do I would think. Definitely a reasonable bet they made on him, just hasn't worked out.
Even little kids know how to spell albatross.
ReplyDeleteI expect they are also better at identifying them than you.
Black Dog, don't be so sure Cogs won't be back next season. His faceoff % seems to be slightly improving, he is a fixture on an improving penalty kill, and the coach seems to be somewhat enamoured with him.
BD: They might just move to the wings anyway. A lot of team (If not all) do that and when theyre older shift them back to C.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Traktor.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers should’ve signed Morrison for $750,000.
Then when Horcoff went down with another of his top 15 injuries,
We Oiler fans wouldn’t have to suffer through one of those long losing streaks.
My word verification is "forplorin".
Sound like what happens on a date with the new girl.
Discuss amongst yourself lads, I'm off for the homestead.
ReplyDeleteDucey - maybe so but if he's still here I woud be really really surprised. Unless he has an absolute dynamite second half I think he's a goner. And even if he does he may be tradebait anyhow.
fpb - that's possible, yep
With Fraser, I realize he sucks but I don't see what's gained by getting rid of him. You can always use him in the same role Chicago did as a your 5th center. Kinda like using Strudwick as the 7th D man.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the Oilers isn't that they have guys like Strudwick & Fraser on their roster it's that they expect far too much out of them.
You know who Morrison would replace?
ReplyDeleteCogliano, Fraser, Brule, O'marra.
He would compliment Horcoff and Gagner.
And cherry picking one deal that's paid off is just intellectually dishonest. I'm done with the page for today. Crazy town in here.
Looking at Cogs' #'s. Maybe I have this wrong somehow but ...
ReplyDeleteCogs has played the 2nd toughest competition of all Oilers (.067). He has had the 17th best teammates(-.058).
He has the 11th best Rel Corsi (+.6) on the team and 7th best among forwards.
The math seems to like him. He is keeping his head above water against the toughs without much help.
One of Traktor's most well-used Horcoff arguments had "Sidney Crosby is not a first line centre" as an easily reachable conclusion so that tells you all you really need to know about the intellectual capacity of the man making said argument.
ReplyDeleteIf a top line center is the Oilers goal why not trade with Columbus --Ryan Johanneson or LA for Braydon Schenn
ReplyDeleteIf the Magnificent Bastard thinks this is a weak draft and last year was considered a good draft
Howson must have the owner climbing all over his ass----win now, make playoffs or you are fired. Attendance in Columbus is also down. If LA truly believes they can win now--- would a nice piece now and a switch of draft picks be attractive to them?
Re: 13, the problem with the math is it only counts Events, there is no Event for shitty drop-pass or skating a 3-1 into the corner or any number of turn-something-into-nothing plays. No shot for, no shot against. If the math calls that keeping your head above water, then we need to find a higher Mendoza.
ReplyDeleteRe: 13, the problem with the math is it only counts Events, there is no Event for shitty drop-pass or skating a 3-1 into the corner or any number of turn-something-into-nothing plays. No shot for, no shot against.
ReplyDeleteWell, the obvious question there is if those things don't lead to events, why do they matter?
Cogliano's got the worst +-/60 among Oilers forwards, but he also has the lowest PDO. He also finishes his shifts in the offensive zone more often than he starts there. I don't think he's as bad as is being widely perceived.
Cogliano plays like a power forward, Twilight Zoned into a universe of giants - where instantly he's forced to develop an entire strategy of avoiding getting hammered into the ice.
ReplyDeleteAside from that, he's an excellent player.
Have to agree w/Alice on Cogs. I don't like the "saw him good" argument but Cogliano's biggest issue is that his defensive zone awareness and coverage is atrocious.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad his counting numbers are better, but I'm still not sold on him as a long term solution.
He does not track his man well at all and I can think of at least 8 or 9 instances this season where he's been caught looking at the puck while his man was cycling to the open area in front for a score.
Interestingly, Gagner struggles tracking the man in his zone - more on the PK. And in checking the last 5 games, he's not been out killing penalties and lo and behold, the Oilers have been much better on the kill.
To test the claim, I asked my 2.5 year old to spell albatross - she told me that she wanted to watch Dora. I don't think she knows how to spell albatross.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I didn't see the play by Hemsky. But I've seen that play countless times. My question is - Why are two guys going to the net? Who is the best passer in the NHL going to pass it to? Why is the center leaving his position? It is now Hemsky one on five because his linemates have taken themselves out of the play. Hemsky's only play is to go around the net because the two are not equal to one Penner who can control two opponents and screen the goalie.
ReplyDeleteGretzky would often come across the blueline on the right side. Kurri did not go to the net. He tried to stay in a passing lane, and a shooting lane, clear of traffic set for the one timer. If Hall plays with Hemsky a bit more chances are he'll adapt.
ReplyDelete//I can't believe nobody bit on my Tambellini for Gagner gambit. Hell, our guy is v3.0 too, that should be worth a late draft pick.//
ReplyDeleteI didn't know if you meant the fathers or the sons.
It might be worth trading the fathers! -).
Even little kids know how to spell albatross.
ReplyDeleteI know it was suggested earlier this week I have less right than others to be on here during work hours, but this was a quote I have some authority on. And in an unscientific survey of 11-12 yr olds, only 1/3 of them know how to spell albatross (7 of 23).
Carry on folks.
(I got bored at work and decided to come back to crazy town.)
ReplyDeleteHere are the Oilers with worse Rel Corsi numbers than Cogliano:
PECKHAM, SMID, STORTINI, OMARK, JACQUES, BRULE, MPS, FRASER, BELLE, STRUDWICK, PETRY, JONES, MACINTYRE, REDDOX, O'MARRA
That's a bunch of struggling rookies like MPS and Omark, tweeners like Belle and Reddox, crap like Jacques and Strudwick, and goons like Stortini and SMac. And Smid and Brule are really, really underperforming right now, which is a major cause of the Oilers' problems.
Outperforming those guys should be a given for any player worth any kind of contract or regular top 9 minutes.
In that context, middle of the pack RelCorsi number means a lot less than having a terrible Corsi number.
Actually that list of Cogs and below (who has a -12 Corsi) and their terrible Corsi numbers pretty much tells the story of the season and why we're dead last.
Add Crosby to this team instead of Hemsky and it still wouldn't be very good with the other 20+ guys on the roster.
All that said, I wouldn't trade Cogs for nothing or a anything less than a second rounder. I'd move him to the wing and hope that the flashes turn into consistent performance. He's still young enough to turn it around.
Tencer's "Probable" Lineup...
ReplyDeleteHall - Gagner - Hemsky
Penner - Cogliano - Jones
Omark - Reddox - Paajarvi
Jacques - Fraser - Stortini
Peckham - Gilbert
Smid - Petry
Strudwick - Foster
Brule out with bruised abdomen.
Khabibulin starts, of course.
ReplyDeleteEhhh
ReplyDeleteEll
Bee
Ehhh
.
.
.
.
Could I get the language of origin please?
Khabi starts...
ReplyDelete...f***ing the dog for Landeskog
Just rolls of the tongue.
Who punched Brule in the gut?
ReplyDeleteIf Cogs' D-Zone coverage was bad, it should show up in Corsi. Yeah there will be non-events too, but likely over a large sample thos non-events will occur at the same rate as non-events occur for other players.
ReplyDeletespOILer: Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought Corsi was just looking at zone start/finish. I didn't think it also look at goals against and primary/secondary errors.
ReplyDeleteNot that it's perfect, but I do like the work David Staples does over at the EDM Journal on that.
Spoiler - Sympathy pain for Eberle?
ReplyDeleteTrak's either delusion, close-minded or taking a piss because the comments on by just how much 10's overpaid seals it.
ReplyDeleteI used to get into these arguments all the time but if you think 10's a big problem or 83's any kind of a problem at all, well then you are either pot-stirring or you don't have a goddamn clue.
Some other things heading
- good point about both 4 and 83 wanting to carry the puck so they're gonna have to figure that out.
- outside of letting out one huge rebound in the second period I thought DD played a great game last night and I think we finally have something here in terms of a homegrown goalie. It looks like the potential is real and I'd like to see how he could fair playing behind even a decent team.
There's every reason to believe the Canucks win this game by two - and I will get to the main reason, IMO, when I finish - but they didn't play great in the last win over Cgy - Kipper let in a couple of stinkables - and the kid backup might be due for a bad goal or two tonight.
I'm gonna take the Oilers at -120 on +1.5 and I'll say they cover that unless they give the Dys more than 4 PP's.
The Oil's PK has been much better of late but last night the Isles had 15 PP SOG and they were finding seams and the Dys could carve us on the mad adv tonight.
Moving forward that's great news on 10 and he can't be far away if he's practicing in full gear and 14's expected back before the end of the roadtrip next Sun at Ana.
I'd let to get a month or two with all of 6-10-14 in the lineup just to see what we might have.
Speaking of that, Riv and I were texting last night during the game and I floated the idea of dealing off 91 if the right D was available in order to speed up the timeline.
I also like the idea of trying to get 27-83 to sign close to value deals if we can sell them on this team being good as soon as next year.
Is that jumping the timeline? I just worry that we've only got two more seasons of 4-14 on their EL deals and I'd like 27-83 to be able to help out while those guys are still cheap.
I'm gonna take the Oilers at -120 on +1.5 and I'll say they cover that unless they give the Dys more than 4 PP's.
ReplyDeleteDon't like it. CAL D is much better against a cycling team like the Dys than the Oil.
I got a bunch of units out there tonight, but my favorite play is DET in reg at +120.
Speaking of that, Riv and I were texting last night during the game and I floated the idea of dealing off 91 if the right D was available in order to speed up the timeline.
What guy are you thinking of? I'd want someone who's current contract ends with RFA status because you're giving up a lot of years of 91
Showerhead - a huge thanks for noticing and mentioning MPS leapfrogging the Islander. I almost lost it laughing and no one else in the room noticed... I thought I might be insane or seeing things, so I came here to see if anyone mentioned it.
ReplyDeleteYES - it was hilarious!
I'm not on board re:MP until we know what he is. There's some holes but there's some nice things too. I understand the Oilers have some needs on the blue but those guys are higher risk and if you trade for a capable D then there are several years difference (MP is 19) between what you're giving up and getting.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather try the group (Peckham, Petry, Plante, Motin, Marincin) we have currently, give more bullets to MBS and then sign/trade when we're clear what these kids are on the other side.
Boooring.
ReplyDeleteWhere is Traktor and his powerful trolls that summon hbombs?
Dennis: your idea re MPS is a pretty radical one. What is your line in the sand in terms of quality and contract coming back? Do we have historical comps when it comes to trading away a 19 year old with MPS' pedigree?
ReplyDeleteIginla for Niewendyke or something like that? That's an awfully different context and I don't know a thing about Iginla's development path. I am absolutely not suggesting him as a direct comparable for MPS.
Oilerdago, that sounds like you are describing Zone Shift.
ReplyDeleteI would hope MPS for a reliable mid-20's D would be a win-win like the Nieuwendyk-Iginla trade, and not a lopsided loss like the Steen/Colaicovo for Stempniak trade. And I don't give Toonces the street cred to pull off that deal properly.
ReplyDeletemid-career 2nd pairing D can be obtained in the UFA market. One does not have to give up 91 to get them.
ReplyDelete1st pairing stud D UFA's require the team to be competitive before they are attracted to you in free agency.
And the young Doughty-types are never available for trade.
Elite 1st pairing D are really only available through the draft, or via free agency once the team is already competitive.
Dennis:
ReplyDeleteSome defend 30th place clubs.
Others see Horcoff and others for what they are.
People will climb mountains to try and justify his contract (Drury is overpaid so leave Horcoff alone) but all you need to do is look at guys like BMo signing for 750k to see what Horc's value is.
$75,000 Dodge Neon.
"It doesn't go as fast as a Corvette or look as flashy as a Cadillac but golly gee its reliable and I wouldn't trade it in for anything."
Is that jumping the timeline? I just worry that we've only got two more seasons of 4-14 on their EL deals and I'd like 27-83 to be able to help out while those guys are still cheap.
ReplyDeleteLets say Tambo is going to go all Burke/ Sutter and start dealing off first round draft picks. I don't see where that gets them. Maybe they make the playoffs but there is no way they are a contender.
This team has major holes (#1 centre, stud shutdown #1 Dman, no bottom 6 at all) and roster construction problems (too small, no grit, poor defence, too brittle). I don't see how Tambo could fill all those spots in trades and the Oilers always have trouble bringing in FA's.
I don't think you can rush these things. The Oilers are about 1.5 years from starting to fill in the holes with quality from the draft. Then its going to take some time for these guys to learn to play and for 4 and 14 to emerge as dominant players.
83 and 27 are either going to stick around on cap friendly deals to play here into their 30's or they will chase the $$ and get shipped out.
I like the Smid Petry pairing very much. Both with some size, good puck handling and skating skills. Should help Smid's development, the fastest way to learn is teaching someone else.
ReplyDeleteWhere is Traktor and his powerful trolls that summon hbombs?
ReplyDeleteYes, I love it when they argue about what their previous arguments were. If only they had written their original arguments down somewhere...
//83 and 27 are either going to stick around on cap friendly deals to play here into their 30's or they will chase the $$ and get shipped out.//
ReplyDeleteIf I were Dustin Penner, when I became a UFA I would offer my services to the Penguins for $3 million per season for 3 years. Penner is close to an ideal winger for Crosby.
Too bad Pittsburgh won't trade Staal. Penner plus for Staal would solve the big two-centre problem for the Oilers.
Is it just me,
ReplyDeleteor does buying a battleship-grey $75,000 Dodge Neon defeat the purpose?
All good points and I don't have a D in mind but I'm just thinking I'd like to be able to put a good team together that Includes 27-83 and if 91 has some real buzz then we can pick up a real D in a trade without having to wine and dine one on the FA market.
ReplyDeleteIf I were Dustin Penner, when I became a UFA I would offer my services to the Penguins for $3 million per season for 3 years. Penner is close to an ideal winger for Crosby.
ReplyDeleteYou're a riverboat gambler.
I mean, 3 years????? That's a fuck of a gamble. If he can get 5MM over those 3 years -and then more years guaranteed at the same rate- by signing with the highest bidder he's giving up 6MM dollars (or 99cent cheeseburgers) and the guarantee of a big check for a longer period. (Some guys end up going Tanguay or Jokinen.)
I suppose your idea is that if he plays with Crosby, his numbers will get inflated and his next deal -three years from now!- would be a lot higher than it would be otherwise and he would earn more over the course of his career in total. I get that it could work.
But those years are his prime. What if he gets injured in the final year. (Big men tend to break down. And it doesn't need to be a career ender, just a hobbling injury that hurts his game.) What if he doesn't play with Crosby in the final year? What if Crosby get's injured even for 35 games? What if people see through the inflated numbers and offer him less, knowing what he is?
Those are big risks to take with 6MM or so. (Especially since you won't play forever.)
I could see him signing a one year deal at a discount to play with Crosby. That makes more sense. But I doubt his agent would let him do that.
Can we at least agree that Horcoff is not a very good PP option? If it wasn't for his defensive game he wouldn't be in the NHL the same way Rob Schremp wouldn't be in the NHL if it wasn't for his offensive game.
ReplyDeleteGuys like Rob Schremp are better options on the PP the same way that Horc is a better option on the PK.
This is the required filtration when looking at Horcoff and his numbers.
Also.. when looking strictly at the role of a 3rd line C (aka offensive production is not required, physical play usually preferred) is Shawn Horcoff a better option than someone like Malhotra (2.5), Paul Gaustad (2.3), or David Steckel (1.1)?
Not a chance.
Wouldn't you guys prefer players that are the best at what they do rather than a utility bit?
You guys are probably the ones that pay big money for one of those 3in1 tape measures with the pencil holder and laser light that home hardware advertises every hockey game.
Real tradesmen don't use that shit.
Real tradesmen don't use that shit.
ReplyDeleteAnd real hockey teams don't hire complete players.
//I mean, 3 years????? That's a fuck of a gamble. If he can get 5MM over those 3 years -and then more years guaranteed at the same rate- by signing with the highest bidder he's giving up 6MM dollars (or 99cent cheeseburgers) and the guarantee of a big check for a longer period. (Some guys end up going Tanguay or Jokinen.)//
ReplyDeleteHow much money does a person need. For Penner, at this point, it is funny money. Signing at a discount in Pittsburgh for 3 years @ $3 million would give him $30 million in career earnings, more than enough to live comfortably for the rest of his life. What you get by not chasing every last penny is a chance to play with Crosby or Malkin, and have a lot more fun playing hockey, and playing for Cups.
If's its me, and I have $20 million in the bank already (okay after agents fees and beer maybe $15 million) , and can earn nearly another $10 being Crosby's wingman in the prime of his and my career, I sign up for that.
It is a quality of hockey decision after one already has enough money.
Godot,
ReplyDeleteThat's an awful lot of assumptions about what motivates Penner.
Which is why I prefaced my comments, "if I were Dustin Penner"...
ReplyDeleteGotcha, missed that.
ReplyDelete"And real hockey teams don't hire complete players."
ReplyDeleteSure they do.
They just don't pay Draper more than Datsyuk.
Here's something that came to mind last night when watching the Oilers about to go on the PP.
ReplyDeleteOnce the NHL changed the rules so that every PP would begin in the offensive zone I've wondered what the point is with trying to score on the rush when the 6th man comes off the bench. Personally - and I thought of this last night with the Oilers clinging to a one goal lead - I would fuck around and then head back behind the net and call for a forward to join me and cycle a bit to kill the clock.
Pre-new rules I'd always hope the Oil could gain the zone to get the O-zone draw to start the PP but now I'd just kill the clock if I was in the lead.
Horcoff doesn't seem to be a very good PK option, either.
ReplyDeleteSince he and Eberle were replaced, our PK has been excellent.
OKC down 0-3 after 1 period tonight. Gerber in goal.
ReplyDeleteHemsky is an excellent 1st line RW. among the top 30 forwards in the league.
ReplyDeleteKris, given that you're keen to see specificity in an argument, what's your evidence to support this 'Top 30 forward' claim?
Unfortunately talent is not always accompanied by durability, and when it is not, it does not equate to consistent production. Hemsky is proof of that and with that flaw in his game, it's not apparent to me he's in the Top 30.
I don't see too many Hemsky 'haters' here. The overall tone seems to be either outright admiration or respect tinged with the realism that the player has some flaws. That said, we're definitely better with him than without.
Wojo: http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=3552
ReplyDeleteK, bye. Back to light-hearted Oilers talk on the twerts. Too many long knives out on here...
Horcoff doesn't seem to be a very good PK option, either.
ReplyDeleteSince he and Eberle were replaced, our PK has been excellent.
Seriously?
---
Lee,
Good question. (And I tried to clarify with my next post that I was raising specific things to debate -things I do believe, I suppose- but which I wasn't offering reasons for.
Let's see... Let's try to name 30 forwards who are uncontroversially better, i.e. we all agree they're better. Forget cap hit and prospects who will be better and salary for now. If we can hit 30, I'm wrong and happy to learn something knew. If we start running into players who are only debateably better, then we can go from there.
I'll start with 15:
Crosby, Ovechkin, Toews, Stamkos, Sedin, Sedin, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Nash, St. Louis, B. Richards, E. Staal, E. Malkin, Heatley,
Ok, I'll take a stab at it. Here's 20 just for shits n giggles.
ReplyDeleteThornton, Marleau, Kane, Corey Perry, Getzlaf, Cammalleri, Iginla, Kopitar, Kovalchuk, Gaborik, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Kesler, Franzen, Kessel, Sharp, Dustin Brown, Parise, Semin, Koivu
As well players, that have IMO have surpassed Hemsky relatively early in their career and will soon have the tenure to support the claim for their being better players: Duchene, Chris Stewart, Plekanec & Giroux
Have fun tearing it apart ;)
What are the odds that this game hasn't seen a goal?
ReplyDeleteHall usually looks composed so it's weird to see him fold like a cheap tent against the cycle in his own end. A serious case of the yips.
ReplyDeleteFierce,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I'm not anti-Horcoff. Second, Tyler makes some big assumptions there that had holes poked in them by several posters in the comments - myself included. I don't buy his argument. It has merit, but isn't definitive. Quality of chances is something stats don't measure and thus can't be factored into his assumption.
The argument that "teams return to the mean/average" is incredibly flawed. If that were true, you could throw out any 4 players and any goalie on the PK or any 5 on the PP, and count on "teams return to the mean" to save you. As the Leafs' horrific PK last year showed, that's not true.
Finally, I try to show a lot of respect for everyone posting here. I don't expect it, but I would like that kind of respect in return. An off-handed "k, bye", isn't it.
I had the chances at 7-12 but the Oilers "built" that on the back of three very good chances on a great PP so it was 4-12 at EV and that seems about right.
ReplyDeleteEdm was terrible in front of their own net and early on 5 just softly threw a puck up the middle to Volpatti and how many goddamn games does that dummy have to play before he can cut shit like that out of his MO?
Anyway, Khabby looks ready and I called no worse than a one goal loss as long as the club takes four penalties or less.
Oilers looked like an expansion team to me in that period. Lots of chasing and when they had a real opportunity the puck went wide/over the net.
ReplyDeleteI miss Jordan Eberle.
Also, Oil 2/13 on the FO so we've got that going for us.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to list all of the players because I'm very lazy, but I went through a bunch of forwards on NHL.com and put Ales right around the 28-31 range. So I could buy the top 30 argument.
ReplyDeleteDamn that was quick...and ugly
looks like the whole team caught cogliatis on the one.
ReplyDeletelook at puck, look at puck, look at puck. oops goal against
89 with his own version of 13 puck vision.
ReplyDeleteYou can't lose track of a Sedin like that.
That was terrible by Khabby.
ReplyDeleteKhabi not so sharp on that one.
ReplyDeleteyuck
Keep F*(&ing that dog
Two quick goals by San Jose... I mean Vancouver. I wonder what the odds are of Edmonton falling far enough to surpass New Jersey for 30th? It's too bad (in its own perverse way) that aside from Vancouver, the NW is a relatively weak division this year. It never ceases to amaze me that the playoffs are determined per division/conference, but the draft lottery is league-wide. It's little wonder that so many superstars get drafted in the East.
ReplyDeleteas soon as I heard "Strudwick pinches" you knew hilarity would ensue.
ReplyDeleteGood thing LoweBellini signed Khabi.. think where we'd be without him.
ReplyDeleteway to send a message with your tough guys. Go out and get a hooking penalty down 3 goals.
ReplyDeleteExcellent hooking penalty by 33.
ReplyDeleteReally sending a message to the Dys.
Christ, tough to score when youve lost 21 of 24 faceoffs.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they should address that need?? one day...
Itsaleaf: I believe that's something they're currently evaluating.
ReplyDeleteFoster is a terrible pointman on the PP. The Oilers just can't help themselves - they love the big shot and below average power plays.
ReplyDeleteIcecastles:
ReplyDeleteTambellini is EXTREMELY diligent, I guess.
I know when my roof leaks, I watch it drip for three years before deciding I should fix it.
Cogliano whistles it wide.
ReplyDeleteBad Wojo,
ReplyDeleteRe: Eberle and Horcoff not being good on the PK
Look at this list of Save % when on the ice during a PK for all Oiler forwards who average more than 1min/60 on the PK.
Cogliano .915
Penner .903
Fraser .897
Hemsky .886
Jones .863
Horcoff .722
Eberle .673
2 things have happened lately to bring the Oiler PK from 67% to 75%
1) Khabby stopped being swiss cheese on the PK after he came back from injury. Before he went down there were multiple Oilers in the .700 range for on ice sv%
2) The Oilers switched from the diamond to the more known collapsing box. This seems to have helped the players, they seem more comfortable with that.
Neither Eberle or Horcoff have been playing the PK enough lately (both out due to injury, and 14 was taken off the PK before he went down) to help their earlier horrible numbers which seem to be driven primarily by bad SV%.
... or maybe....
ReplyDeleteMacintyre loses his mind, skates to the Van bench, grabs Burrows by his smirk little face, lifts him over his head, power bombs him, and then imitates hogan whipping himself off the boards and dropping the big leg on a motionless burrows. Shortly thereafter he suspends himself for 55 games.
Woodguy,
ReplyDeleteI agree, there are a lot of factors.
That's why we can't hope to possibly analyze them.
I simply drew attention to the correlation of Horcoff being off the PK (along with Eberle), and the PK getting better.
Now, when Horcoff comes back, we'll be able to judge better. Of course, people who like Shawn will be able to say "well, lingering injury, or Khabi came down to earth, etc."
I don't buy that it's just our goaltending suddenly getting better. One goalie got hot? Sure. Two? Unlikely.
That should count.
ReplyDeleteWoodguy: I'd also say the PK has been better w/Gagner not playing as he was not doing a good of tracking skaters.
ReplyDeleteA small but important change in tactics.
That's why we can't hope to possibly analyze them.
ReplyDeleteI believe we can.
I simply drew attention to the correlation of Horcoff being off the PK (along with Eberle), and the PK getting better.
I simply showed some stats that showed your correlation to probably be spurious at best.
Now, when Horcoff comes back, we'll be able to judge better.
Agreed.
I don't buy that it's just our goaltending suddenly getting better. One goalie got hot? Sure. Two? Unlikely.
You don't have to buy anything, the numbers are right there.
I can remember many Hemsky turnovers, but I'm having a hard time remembering one that directly cost us a goal against when horcoff was covering his ass defensively.
ReplyDeleteFixed.
Finding goals off of mistakes is alot easier when he is not playing with Horc.
As for hemsky on the side boards. look at the great mtl PPs since the lockout. Side board shots create the potential for varied lanes. shoot the puck for fuck sakes.
Is hemsky our best player? what do you define as best?
Danny:
ReplyDeleteAt least SMac would then serve a purpose. I can't for the life of me figure out how he "deters" anything.
So many wasted roster spots....
itsaleaf said: I know when my roof leaks, I watch it drip for three years before deciding I should fix it.
ReplyDeleteWhen Tamby's roof has a leak, he waits for the roof to collapse. While evaluating the collapsed roof, mildew sets into the walls and the foundation becomes unstable.
His wife leaves him. He tries seducing other women but, having seen his house, they refuse. Even when he mails them sexy videotapes and brings his boss to her house for dinner.
He declares he's rebuilding the house.
The next year, he buys a 2X4 and three nails.
Proper rebuilds take a while.
Icecastles:
ReplyDeleteI spit my scotch out reading that. Thanks
Well, I just got back from picking up child #1 from his friend's place and I see "the problem" scored a goal.
ReplyDeleteWell, that's the exception. Ales Hemsky is a bad, bad man.
As Riv just said, you have to take score effects into account but not counting the Kesler goal as a chance - because how could I penalize anyone for that fuckery - the Oilers won the SC battle 10-4 in that period.
ReplyDeleteNow, sure, both Real goals were great chances and Raymond got stopped on a breakaway so maybe I should stop there:)
Anyway, I put the Oil at +1.5 and the Lakers at -7.5 on a small parlay so the late 83 goal at least puts me just one goal back of being in the hunt for a small win.
In other news:
- 26 is a considerable minus while playing against dummies and his offense is a bigger rumour than Vinny Barbarino's sexuality but other than that he's been an awesome fucking signing.
- John Garrett should be horsefucked and the play by play Dys guy should be forced to watch. Just the heights of douchery on their telecasts tonight and it's even worse than what you hear from the Wings and Pens bcasters.
- I've got 58 at 7/3 on the chances meter after 40 min and what I like about him already is he has patience And a clue in the Ozone and he uses his reach very effectively.
The only way 33 should play is if he's out there to Kugel people.
ReplyDeleteThe guy seems like a great fellow but he can't play and we've got a lot of those guys so we can't afford another one.
And, yeah, I said this the other day but all of a sudden the NW bracket turned into the old Norris division.
My my, Strudwick had 3 chances to get that puck out. Unreal.
ReplyDeletethats a blantant interference on Gagner. Awful
ReplyDeleteI can't believe Gino went there. Habits. Oh. Look. More uncalled interference.
ReplyDeleteI don't care if MacIntyre is a MMA fighter on ice, get him off of the bleeping team.
ReplyDeleteI mean, the team is young but they also suck, and not just because they're young. They are a bad team with loads of improperly placed players. They will not get better this way and having Mr. Knuckles roaming around in a soon- to be - blowout doesn't ease the pain, it enhances it.
I dont care if theo gets extra penalties on that.
ReplyDeleteI LOVE that he doesnt take shit. Theyre down 3 anyway. ROUGH EM UP
Dennis, leave Kotter out of this and I'm thinking 58 won't be goin back, ever.
ReplyDeleteThat Bieksa hit on 89 was definitely interference.
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly a Gagner booster but that seemed like a normal hockey hit. Maybe a hair late but not worth all the fuss.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I love that Ted Peckman treats opposition forwards like garbage in a trash heap.
Agreed. Can't let them keep pushing you around and laughing at you. Theo stands up for his teammates they way an enforcer ought to.
ReplyDeleteI mean, its embarrassing. Dragging out SMac is embarrassing. If they are going to field a team like this against the Canucks, just call in sick and fly to Dallas for the next beating.
ReplyDeleteOn a different note, The Canucks in house goal announcer sounds like the nicest guy. What a polite voice.
ReplyDeleteIs it wrong that I am totally pro cheap shot if it happens against Vancouver?
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for their playoff collapse.
Wait, lets just let Hemsky take care of his own business.
ReplyDeleteMaybe some boxing lessons.
You know, this is good. Hemsky doing some stickwork isn't the worst thing in the world. Carve a few people and maybe there's a little less aggression next time around.
ReplyDeleteRough night. I am beginning to hate Vancouver as much as did the Canadiens in the late 70s.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the Canuck players should have beers in their hands.
ReplyDeleteStauffer is pissed.
ReplyDeleteI agree LT. I think the outrage probably has more to do with the fact the Oilers are getting shit kicked by a hated rival full of ass clowns.
ReplyDeleteI LOATHE the Canucks, but that hit seemed fine, maybe a split second late but nothing out of the ordinary in my eyes.
It's time to let DD run a good 4 or 5 games straight.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Oilers can bitch and moan all they want but their small forwards are going to get beaten about until the team comes up with actual NHL players who can keep things on the straight and narrow.
ReplyDeleteSteve MacIntyre is of no use to the Oilers. I hope this game proves that, although I suspect we'll see JF Jacques on the 1line Tuesday night.
Colin Fraser. That is all.
ReplyDeleteIn the same vein, if they continue to ice this team then I hope that teams like the Canucks continue to reveal all of the holes in the Oiler lineup. Continue to dominate this sorry excuse for a team. A third of this team needs to be gone by the summer.
ReplyDeleteThe next fella that feels the Oilers are a few Marty Reasoners away from being a good team should watch the Oilers v Canucks tapes 10/11.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers look light years away from beating the Canucks.
Years ago I learned to hate the Dys because of Jim Hughson and Todd Bertuzzi.
ReplyDeleteNaslund was so deadly against the Oil that I just learned to appreciate how skilled he was and Morrison never seemed all that hateful.
But Bertuzzi was the biggest kind of arsehole and when Hughson called the games he took such glee in their winning and I always find it unseemly.
I know it's necessary to have every game covered in order for the CI package to be viable:) but maybe I'm in the minority but if the Oilers are ever good again I wouldn't want Quinn and whomever to behave like the Canucks bcast team did tonight.
This Dys team is fucking stacked and their results are bought and paid for but I forgot how much I used to hate them until tonight. It's terrible when teams make you want to cheer for Detroit.
They got rid of 1/3 of the team last year. It didn't help.
ReplyDeleteAnyone just hear Tencer.....with 46 and 33 both in line-up, their record is 1-4 and 25-10 outscored...ouch.
ReplyDeleteIs Tencer Allowed to publicize that?:)
ReplyDeleteClark: Last year was a good start. Maybe they got rid of the wrong ones.
ReplyDeleteAnyone just hear Tencer.....with 46 and 33 both in line-up, their record is 1-4 and 25-10 outscored...ouch.
ReplyDeleteYea they suck, but Detroit won their last cup with McCarty playing 17 games in the playoff run.
The bigger problem is that perhaps none of the Oilers defence playing tonight would crack the top 4 in Vancouver. And they iced 6 4th line forwards, and the Oilers' best forward would be the Canucks' 4th best forward.
I wonder who the top prospects are for the 2012 entry draft.
It's almost as if they were trying to break that 29% faceoff game against the Flames in October.
ReplyDelete31% tonight. It's against the best faceoff team in the league, but still.
Blood simmering a bit for this game. I don't care if they lose the game but you just can't let the other team beat up your top players like that for the whole game. If this team was magically good enough to get into the playoffs they probably wouldn't last 4 games. Just pathetic.
I don't know who to blame first but I was really hoping that Renney would have sent in the goons much sooner and more effectively. Stick MacIntyre on the first line for a shift and let him take a charge at a Sedin. Tell Stortini to go kick the shit out of a guy like Kesler or Torres.
I know it's a PC world now and you can't do these things but I wish someone would take it upon themselves. Anyone. Peckham was the only guy out there that was getting mad enough to do anything about it. Hemsky was just pretty dumb on the hit that fired him up but you'd think when something like that happens someone steps in and crosschecks the guy in the neck or something. That's how things used to work. I think Mr. Souray wouldn't have a problem doing it, even if he would of course break some of his own bones trying. Where's our unheralded leader in Strudwick? How many fights has he been in this year?
Okay...steam out...Hopefully these guys can learn to take care of themselves a bit more.
Are we not buying into the rebuild?
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to understand the situation we're in and I'm wondering...
Is this how Pittsburgh fans felt after the Crosby draft? They went on to have a 58 point season in his rookie year - 22-46-14. And that was with a 102 point effort from Sid the Kid. The Pens were also getting last best efforts from Recchi and LeClair, and had Ryan Malone in his prime, as well as a young Whitney and Colby Armstrong, as well as 26 good games out of Mario.