Shawn Horcoff may be at a crossroads in his career. Despite owning a lucrative contract that pays him handsomely through the summer of 2015, Horcoff's health long term could spell an early end to #10's time in the NHL.
Horcoff missed only 5 games (1 to the flu, 4 more to that shoulder that keeps giving him problems) and his quality of play was good when the coaching staff saw fit to play him and rest the denver-boot LW's.
However, his faceoff winning percentage was well off (46.4% after several seasons in the 50's) and his touch around the net was subpar. He did not appear to have the speed displayed spring 2006 and afterward. How much of this downgrade is due to wear and tear and how much is due to the NHL's worst set of hockey cards surrounding him is an open question.
•Boxcars: 77gp, 13-23-36
•Shots: 123
•Plus Minus: -29
•Corsi (Rel): 0.6 (7th F)
•GF/GA ON: 32-60
•5x5/60: 1.37 (9th F)
•5x4/60: 2.80 (8th F)
•Quality of Competition: 2nd F (toughest C)
•Quality of Teammates: 7th F
•FO Percentage: 46.4% in 1337 FO's
•Offensive Zone FO %: 45.3 (tied for toughest F)
•Cap Hit: $5.5M
- What do these numbers tell us? Horcoff used to have another C to help with the heavy lifting, but there is no Stoll and there is no Reasoner. Much of his offensive downturn can be credited to yeoman work in the faceoff circle and on the PK. He played the toughest minutes among centers on the team with third level help and the results were poor. I don't know that anyone could expect a different result considering how bad the team is overall. Here is quain's excellent performance table for Horcoff.
- How could these numbers be better? The coaching staff had no choice but to split up Horcoff and Penner when Hemsky went down and the results weren't immediate. Eventually, Horcoff was moved to a dedicated "checking line" with Opposite George and Fernando Pisani. His final 21 games were effective (4-9-13 E in those games) and perhaps give us some hope for 2011-12.
- You're not going to even mention the -29? It was tough to watch. Have you any suggestions in regard to other options? Hey, I'll admit freely that Horcoff suffered when Hemsky went down and Penner was moved but the fact remains he spent the entire season climbing the highest mountain.
- Does he need help at C? GOD YES! The Oilers have signed Colin Fraser and Sam Gagner is a year older. Is it enough? No, but the Oilers management group doesn't appear to value faceoffs as highly as other teams. Or at least that has been the case in the past, perhaps Tom Renney will have a different view. If we see Cogliano losing faceoffs by the pound, we'll know.
- After such a poor season, maybe the Oilers will play him against softer opponents? Well, no. Horcoff remains the best center on the team in terms of playing a complete game. Sam Gagner has shown some promise but he's not yet 21 and would appear to be at least a couple of seasons away from such a difficult role. It falls to Horcoff, as he is now very likely the new Stan Weir.
- As it should, he's making the money. No doubt, but the complete lack of depth at center on the Oilers forces them to overuse Horcoff.
- He didn't play that many minutes. Well, yes and no. In the last two seasons the Oilers have been so horrible at faceoffs Horcoff spends plenty of time racing to the bench after ownzone faceoffs. He took 1337 faceoffs (17th overall) last season while playing 1496 minutes. He ranked 29th in overall playing time among centermen.
- What about erosion? It really is the elephant in the room now. I wasn't critical of Lowe's signing of Horcoff then so I'm not going to get pissy now. Having said that, if the coaching staff keeps playing him with JF Jacques against the toughs Horcoff will be in the Asian League by 2013.
- Why do you always defend Horcoff? I've never seen a reason to rip the guy. He was not an ideal candidate for the roles he was asked to fill but he gutted it out and made himself a valuable player. He emerged as a guy who could be counted on to fill a tough slot in the batting order and after doing it he was rewarded with a healthy contract. Since then we have some injuries and a team with massive holes and some goaltending that has killed his number (plus minus). And he's eroding, but we don't know how much the other factors (Chupacabra on the wing, the goaltending) have contributed to the lesser Horcoff.
- What if his offense is gone and he's a checker? Then the Oilers will have an expensive checker.
- If you had to bet for or against him, what would it be? For. Hey, Shawn Horcoff doesn't have to prove one damn thing to me or any other Oiler fan. He signed a contract with the man in charge of the silver and when injuries hit he continued to soldier on; even after Horcoff was injured he still played for the Oilers. You always bet on that sort of person, it just makes sense. I would suggest Shawn Horcoff has worked hard this off-season to make sure he's ready to come back and improve his performance.
- Should he be the captain? I think so, but he is not popular with the fanbase. No use putting more pressure on him.
•06-07 5x5 per 60m: 1.52
•07-08 5x5 per 60m: 2.59
•08-09 5x5 per 60m: 1.59
•09-10 5x5 per 60m: 1.37
By the Numbers
•06-07 5x4 per 60m: 4.87
•07-08 5x4 per 60m: 4.00
•08-09 5x4 per 60m: 3.68
•09-10 5x4 per 60m: 2.80
Predictions Past 2009-10: 71gp, 18-29-47 (.662)
Performance in 2009-10: 77gp, 13-23-36 (.468)
Prediction for 2010-11: 68gp, 13-29-42 (.618)
Providing EV offense against the tough minutes
Chances with/without Horcoff
ReplyDeleteDid this one before I left work, so it won't have to wait til morning.
Also: JFJ/Moreau suck.
Let me be the first to say that I am a Horcoff fan. To my eye, he was one of the few Oil to have heart and passion for the games. It would be interesting to know how bad the shoulder really was. If I recall correctly, he did go a period of time taking few faceoffs so it was bad.
ReplyDeletei am a fan too. works hard, can be productive, though vastly overpaid. i suspect though the Oilers will continue their attempt to trade him.
ReplyDeleteAnother good read LT and some good math to provide color quain, appreciate the info and insights.
ReplyDeleteYour first point (what do these numbers tell us) really says it all. Since shipping out Stoll & Reasoner the weight of responsibility has fallen on 1 guy and he simply can't carry it - especially when he's asked to drag along boat anchors because of OTC's choices on line combo's.
And while I'm critical of those linemate decisions (POS, thecaptainethanmoreau and JFJ), I also see why he had no choice because frankly, Penner at that point was the better offensive option for the team than Horcoff - who's the better defensive forward.
But if we don't get another tough minutes center option (and Dominic Moore would have been a very good one), Horcoff is going to get a lot of abuse from fans and bloggers which I don't believe is fully justified. The draft day decisions are giving us hope, but there's a lot more work to do even this summer and this series is showing that to be true.
Keep up the good work LT.
Good point about the captaincy, LT. You have me leaning towards Whitney now.
ReplyDeletePretty balanced summation, IMHO.
I do wish we would grab another legit FO man.
Though Horcoff can't create offense on his own, he has proven he can contribute when put into the right situation -- i.e. paired with a skilled winger like Hemsky. (Wasn't he a point per game guy when he went to the all-star game a few years back?)
ReplyDeleteSo if he's healthy and Tambo fills the holes on the roster with serviceable veterans, I don't see why he can't put up 70 points playing with the Czech whiz and the newest Wunderkind.
I hope he has a great season, because I for one would really like to see him with the C.
LT
ReplyDelete"What if the offense is gone and he is a checker? he will be an expensive checker"
Martin Lapointe was an expensive checker. Horcoff will be the most expensive checker in the history of the NHL
Pretty effective checker/PK guy though. Just a real solid player
We gotta quit with the vitriol with Horcoff though.........his contract lies SOLELY at the feet of Kevin Lowe. Unless he can convince one of his MSM media parrots to blame it on EIG,etc
The Other John: The ship has sailed. Horcoff is a leper among the certain portions of the fanbase.
ReplyDeleteActually I believe Holik will retain the title as the most expensive checking forward in the history of the NHL. That was and still is just insane.
ReplyDeleteMike Peca won Selke trophies, praise and honor for doing what Horcoff does. Horc gets spit on.
ReplyDeleteI get it about the contract, but whats not to love about an untalented dude moving his way up the line up by showing up everyday and working harder than everyone else?
I know this thread is going to get stupid very soon, but the first time there is a D zone face off and the Sedins come over the boards, who do you think Renney is going to tap?
Horcoff = Peca. Wow.
ReplyDeleteHere, here. I love Horcoff and I am sick of having to defend him at every turn, as I'm sure you are too.
ReplyDeleteHorcoff took 1337 faceoffs?
ReplyDeleteHORCOFF == HACKER ON STEROIDS
Other teams had better buy a dog.
LT
ReplyDeleteShawn Horcoff is a consummate pro. He shows up at camp in superb shape, he works hard, he takes key face offs until his shoulder literally falls off and plays tough competition quite well. He is a team player and has NEVER forgotten where he came from.
He is overpaid. The person to get mad at ....SERIOUSLY is Kevin Lowe. If Horcoff was being paid $3.0 or 3.5 million/yr till age 34 he would absolutely be LOVED!!!! So who signed him to $5.4 million till age 36?
Lowe or, as I said earlier, EIG... Cal Nichol....Pat Laforge...MacT or someone, anyone else. Wait a week and Stauffer will be suggesting Scott Howson signed him to this ridiculous contract and Kevin was at the lake that weekend
So from today forward Horcoff bashers have to preface their comments by stating: my boss wanted to give me a raise.... and I said......I'm worth $17.50 an hour but NOT $19.00 an hour ....so keep your excessive raise!!!!
Think Chicago would want Horcoff and his 16 - 17 minutes a game on the road to CUP II?????
Adam
ReplyDeleteSuspect you are right.
Bobby Holik was a multiple Stanley Cup winning center...... and an absolute defensive Horse was paid $33.7 m over 6 years for an average of $ 5.7 m/yr ...... that is WAY WORSE than the $33 million paid to Horcoff over 6 years.
Difference of course is that Holik was paid for his defense. Lowe/EIG/MacT etc (you get the idea) signed SH for his developing into a 1st line center
With that contract and +/-, not even the legend of 94 would be spared from the wrath of the fans. Context and circumstance had no chance in a discussion.
ReplyDeleteIf 10-83 can carry a rookie with moderate success and 89-27 light it up with a second, then I think the fans will back off somewhat. The argument for "TRUE 1C" isn't as big of a deal if your best weapons can be split on two lines.
Pat Quinn totally wasted Horcoff's strengths as a hockey player (i.e. he is an elite matchup player a la Dennis Rodman in basketball) by playing him most of the season with two wingers who didn't have a clue how to play any defense.
ReplyDeleteHorcoff is a lifeguard out there saving people and Quinn kept throwing him two anchors.
I find it suspicious and rather worrying to see his PP numbers decrease each year.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's time to give someone else the job (PP)
The Other John, don't forget what the actual Holik contract was though.
ReplyDelete$45 mil over 5 years. The Rangers just happened to stumble upon the lockout buyout period at the right time (rollback + no cap buyout).
The Rangers ended up paying that $33mil for 3 years worth of work.
Correction... it wasn't even over 3 years, it was 2 years.
ReplyDeleteAnd it was about $25 mil.
Maybe it's time to give someone else the job (PP)
ReplyDeleteDespite causing the masses to freak more (due to lower counting stats), I think this is reasonable. There are enough offensive weapons to trot out. Save his minutes for ES and PK as long as others are producing.
The nice thing about sports is that a good year can make people forget a prior bad year. I hope Horc can capitalize.
ReplyDeleteFinding someone else to handle PK and EV face-offs would give Renney a lot more flexibility with Horc. And Penner can take some 1PP FOs.
If the goal is to suck ass and die for another year though, Horc might not come out of it smelling like roses.
Adam, you beat me to it. My first thought for most expensive checker was "wait, I gotta look up the Holik deal!"
ReplyDeleteLike it or not, agree with it or not even, but this team had been run by increasingly delusional management(incompetant) ever since the Messier trade.
ReplyDeleteThe Hawks, Pens, and Caps have all proven that the way to produce a top team is via the draft - yet what have Oilers fans got? Lowe, pig headedly mocking the very idea of the draft when he got Penner. Lowe and his caddy MacT further mocking the idea of an enforcer, prior to the last 2-3 seasons which have seen more concussions than any season of ER.
There is a pattern behind these calamatous decisions.
After screwing up the Pronger situation running around like headless chickens shoring up one hole in the lineup and totally ignoring others just as obvious to the fanbase - overpaying Pisani/Moreau and Horcoff in a salary cap era and handcuffing the team in yet another new way.
Which is my point. Horcoff, whether guilty or innocent represents everything stupid about these Oilers since 2000 - a stone handed company man shoved into an upper position on the team, simply due to the incompetance of Lowe and his minions.
You can defend Horcoff until your fingers seize up, but that's what he represents and will contunue to until he proves otherwise - a plugger being sold as a first line player; and at a sucking 5.5 million a season it's the Horcoffians who have the problem, not me.
Chelsea Clinton all dolled up on her wedding day still looks homely. Shawn Horcoff's 13 goals at 5.5 million dollars a season also look homely .
How would an enforcer prevent a guy like Smid getting concussed all the time? I'm serious, I hear this crap all the time and it doesn't make any sense. Do the Red Wings have a bunch of guys with scrambled eggs because they don't dress a drooling lummox on the 4th line?
ReplyDeleteHunter: Thanks! I thought it was getting too agreeable in here.
ReplyDeleteNow to your point. As I understand it, ripping on Horcoff is okay because he signed the contract and represents 2000. Is that about right?
With respect, I'd suggest that your venom is miscast.
Hunter, who is the enforcer for the Hawks, Pens and Preds?
ReplyDeleteLowetide:
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. Horcoff isn't at fault for taking a ridiculous amount of money from the leprachaun Lowe.
He's also a pretty fair hockey player, and could play on the top 9 any team in the NHL.
Nevertheless he REPRESENTS every stupid excess of the Lowe/MacT era. It's not reasonable, but the fact is he is a hangover of a terrible era of Oilers history.
Since Tambellini started doing things more to my liking I've had my habitual anti-Oilers stance undercut in so many ways I would now consider myself a 75-80% absolute booster of anything the front office does. It's weird.
hunter: For me, the Lowe downfall all takes place around the 2006 summer (and really not signing Smyth the previous year). Before that, he was basically caretaker for the Sather roster (dealing future free agents for lesser players) at he was splendid at the 2006 trade deadline.
ReplyDeleteI do agree ST seems to follow more of a plan, although we'll see what happens with the Gagner contract.
LT,
ReplyDeleteAre you sure it was Lowe who had the good trade deadline in '06 ... Moreau claimed it was all Howson. lol
But that couldn't be a bitter Moreau could it ?
Lowetide:
ReplyDeleteColour me a disillusioned Lowe supporter. I was under the impression he was, like you say, a caretaker for the Sather administration, and a bright young GM who, given the opportunity to compete on the level playing field would show everyone what he was made of. And with the Pronger trade really looked like he knew what he was doing.
Post Prongergate and Lowe turns into a pumpkin.
Just for the sake of context, who here can honestly say that he thought the Joffrey Lupul we all watched looking dangerous every time he had the puck in the 2006 Western Conference Final wasn't going to be a player?
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to say we should have gotten Getzlaf instead, but that wasn't happening.
And let's not forget that the Ducks didn't do any better when they traded Pronger 3 years later. It may have been an older Pronger they were trading, but it was also a MUCH less promising Lupul they got back.
Just for the sake of context, who here can honestly say that he thought the Joffrey Lupul we all watched looking dangerous every time he had the puck in the 2006 Western Conference Final wasn't going to be a player?
ReplyDeleteI can! I actually went and looked in my archives and immediately after that series I wrote " Man, did Joffrey Lupul ever piss away the “hometown kid makes good” angle and turn into a whinging crybaby. Not a good week and a half for Mr. Lupul."
And then he came to Edmonton and pissed on the ashes.
It's easy to say we should have gotten Getzlaf instead, but that wasn't happening.
Oh, well if you say so, of course. Burke has had a hard-on for Pronger since he was 18 but he wasn't going to give up a better prospect for him. Of course.
I don't remember the source, but remember hearing that the Oilers did ask for Getzlaf at the time for Pronger and were shot down. But apparently the Ducks originally countered with Perry which we in turn shot down in favor of Lupul. Take that with a grain of salt though, as for all I know that rumor was just a rumor spawned on a forum. I can't remember where I had heard it. For some reason I thought Rick Olczyk said it though.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, they had the right idea going for Getzlaf, but dropped the ball on Lupul over Perry. Oh well. We wouldn't be Oilers fans if we didn't still harp on the past...
Mc79hockey:
ReplyDeleteIf you really believe that Lowe didn't go after Getzlaf when negotiating that deal, I won't waste any time trying to convince you that the guy who got Pronger for Eric Brewer may not actually be a complete moron.
Like Racki, my own recollection from around the time of the trade and afterward is of hearing that Burke refused to put Getzlaf on the table.
Yeah, Tyler, if you think a guy who once turned down Corey Perry in a trade just to stick it to Mike Comrie would ever make an ill-advised deal then I just don't know what to say!!!
ReplyDeleteI mean, for chrissakes, he turned busted up old-man Smyth into RYAN O'MARRA, the stud of studs! How can you possibly be upset with him!? He's like Lou Lamoriello, but with better dance moves!
LA Kings fans view Smyth, unlike some Oiler fans in something less than neo-mythical terms.
ReplyDeleteI guess the part that I am missing is, if Burke refused to put Getzlaf on the table, why did the Oilers still have to trade him to Anaheim? Pronger had a remarkable run during the playoffs and I'm sure there wasn't a single team in the NHL that wouldn't have been interested in acquiring him or at least kicking the tires and checking out the pricetag.
ReplyDeleteThat trade was the tipping point for me in regards to Kevin Lowe, Edmonton Oiler's GM. He deserves to see his jersey in the rafter's someday but he wasn't qualified to hold the GM's job and his performance validates my opinion.
I can't believe I'm feeling a need to defend anything related to Kevin Lowe, the guy who killed our cap with sweetheart deals for Spring '06 heroes, botched the original Comrie situation about as badly as it could have been botched, failed to address obvious roster holes since 2006 and didn't have the balls to fire MacT while the team still had a chance to make the playoffs in 2009, but it's Friday and I guess that's where I'm at.
ReplyDeleteSince implying that the Smyth trade only got us O'Marra is about as far over the line as I've ever seen a comment on that deal go, I'll just address that and not get into the original Pronger steal, the deals leading up to the Cup run, and the fact that Penner was our best player last year.
What we actually got in that deal was Nilsson (a former first rounder with an upside at the time that was on full display when the Kid Line got going the next year), another former first round prospect in O'Marra, and a first round pick who turned out to be Plante (who may still be good).
So that's two prospects and a first round pick all-told (and that's not counting the fact that making the deal got us Sam Gagner and almost Kane), which represents a pretty good haul for a UFA at the deadline.
And while it's true that Nilsson eventually completely flamed out on us and O'Marra might suck, it's also true that Smyth went on to leave the Isles high and dry to sign one of the NHL's worst contracts with Colorado.
I tend to think it would have been a big mistake to pay a guy like Smyth the superstar money he eventually got, and that even signing him earlier to a more "reasonable" deal like the one we currently complain about Horcoff having would have been a mistake too.
I'm glad we dumped him, I think the return was solid, and I love that it also resulted in MacT having to awkwardly read Lowe's speech for him at Mark Messier night.
That never gets old.
Oops, my mistake, as Quain just noted above, the Perry offer was part of a possible Comrie deal, not Pronger. Memory fails, again..
ReplyDeleteIf the Pronger deal had been Lowe's only mistake, I'd forgive him. He did get picks and 2 young players (could've gotten two much better players) for a guy demanding a trade.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't. He was an average-sih GM pre-lockout. A good one for one season. And, on balance, a terrible one after that. IMO. Not just in his trades, e.g. Smyth, Pronger. But in signing all the wrong guys to all the wrong deals. Let's not forget this organization would've been killed by losing 4 1st round picks just to sign Vanek at a big price tag. Vanek is a good player, but when he's eating up that much cap room, but he would've been the best player on a losing team that had all it's lottery picks taken by Buffalo.
Kris,
ReplyDeleteWith time, Klowe's weaknesses as a GM are more apparent. He had one very good summer (2005) and trade deadline (2006). But overall, his strength was in the little deals. In other areas, he got killed.
Ultimately, he really had no greater vision of how to put a team together in the new NHL. They "talked" the story coming out of the lockout (we have to build through the draft), but all their actions said the opposite.
That great spring of 2006 the team caught lightning in a bottle, all the pieces fell in for their one shot. If Pronger stays along w/Roli and Smythe, maybe they stay competitive a few more years, but the chances that they make another deep playoff run are not a sure thing despite that due to the other roster issues that were hidden by Pronger playing 30 minutes a night.
And as we know now, the rest is history.
Lowe/Vanek was like watching the part in Doctor NO where the good doctor tries grabbing at the metal staircase with his metal hands.
ReplyDeleteFour first round draft picks I wouldn't exchange for an 18 year old Gretzky, simply because how on earth are you going to find anyone able to play with him?
The LA Kings post 1989 are a living testament of glitzy failure - sure they had Gretzky, but no one else to play with him.
*shudders endlessly at the thought*
I'd exchange the 4 first rounders for Gretz in his prime if for nothing else than to get to watch Gretz in his prime again :)
ReplyDeleteFor me, Lowe's greatest failing was not just the handcuff contracts but being too quick to leap to the conclusion that the post lockout rule changes had created a dynamic where size was no longer a critical component in the team building process. His comments and the team's drafting around that period reflect an org that was utterly convinced small skilled players were going to rule the day in the new NHL. Ultimately, he was too knee jerk in almost everything he did post the 2006 run and the team paid the price for that lack of a long-term vision.
commanfan13, just for reference the Oilers were in a decent playoff position with about 20 games to go in the 08-09 season.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers were 31-26-5 for 67 points and on pace for 89 points.
It was then that the Oilers sunk themselves and went 7-9-4, losing a bunch of games to teams they were either battling for a playoff spot or to teams below them in the standings.
At what point would you have fired the coach in that situation?
It wasn't really out of hand until there were about 8 games left.
dawgbone:
ReplyDeleteTo me, the team was incredibly lifeless more nights than not that year, which apart from the 10-2 home loss to Buffalo in January doesn't always show up in the game logs due to Roloson being so good (and 36 straight starts!!), but I came to the conclusion that they'd finally quit on MacT about a month before the end of the season.
After the back-to-back OT losses to Atlanta and Colorado probably should have been the time.
I always preferred the Messier/Anderson line as a kid, mainly because they seemed to be a normal NHL first line elite unit.
ReplyDeleteThe Gretzky/Kurri line were like angels - just too good to fathom by any normal criteria.
I love telling my NYer pals how in my opintion Messier is a second line center. Drives them crazy.
PS: Ok Lowetide, Horcoff maybe could have played on the third line back then :)
Shawn Horcoff is as good as Ricky Ray.
ReplyDeleteI'm an NFL fan myself.
Shawn Horcoff is as good as Ricky Ray.
ReplyDeleteFunny you'd mention that - for all the problems with the Edmonton Eskimos, most intelligent Esks fans know that the quarterback isn't the problem, and a lack of competent talent at other positions is.
I don't think I need to draw the analogy here, but I will anyways - the Oilers problem is that they don't have enough guys who play the type of game Horcoff does. And it's been that way since fall 2006 (which, to come full circle, is the same time the Esks started to suck - which is purely coincidence, but I figured I'd throw it in anyways).
Hbomb: I don't need to draw the fact that excluding every other options and calling one option ''Intelligent'' is a paradox itself.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the Horcoff's game thing is that he was part of the problem, and not the solution last year. He had his great share of responsibility in the downfall.
"the Oilers problem is that they don't have enough guys who play the type of game Horcoff does."
ReplyDeleteHow many Horcoff's can you have when they cost 5.5 a pop?
Players with skills ranging from continent to continent like Horcoff are very rare items.
Hunter1909,
ReplyDeleteI agree that the cost for the Vanek contract was way too high and given his injury history the last couple years, it was a blessing in disguise that Buffalo matched.
At the time of the offer sheet, I heard that the offer sheet to Vanek was as much about getting the player as it was punishing Regier for backing out of a draft floor deal with Lowe.
You knew that Buffalo would want to match the offer after losing both Briere and Drury to free agency that summer.
Hbomb: I don't need to draw the fact that excluding every other options and calling one option ''Intelligent'' is a paradox itself.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that that word means what you think it means.
If you really believe that Lowe didn't go after Getzlaf when negotiating that deal, I won't waste any time trying to convince you that the guy who got Pronger for Eric Brewer may not actually be a complete moron.
ReplyDeleteDid the Oilers have a game in early July? There was no reason he had to move Pronger so quickly. He's admitted as much, saying if he was doing it over, he would have let him sit.
Don't kid yourself on getting him for Brewer. He got him for Brewer because the Blues didn't want to pay Pronger and were desperate to move him. It wasn't talent - it was being in the right place at the right time. The Oilers could have forced Pronger into a play or sit situation.
(Way off-topic) Know you're probably not one for hip-hop LT, but you can't pass this up:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFX92ALqxlk
A great track from the same guy (Annakin Slayd) who did the "Feels Like '93" Habs ode that got some attention during the Playoffs. This time he takes on the Expos and delivers them a fitting tribute. It's catchy (heavily samples This Week In Baseball theme) and has some really great moments. Highly recommend that you give it a watch!
Steve:
ReplyDelete''2.One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects''
I believe it's contradictory.
(Slightly more on-topic) Madden to Wild for 1 yr/$1mil(+.25).
ReplyDeleteWell that sucks.
ReplyDeletemc79hockey:
I'll only accept that getting Pronger for Brewer was "being at the right place or the right time" (or luck basically) and not talent if the Blues came to Lowe with the deal.
My impression is that Lowe went to the Blues knowing they were hard up against the new cap with their high-priced trio of Weight, Tkachuk and Pronger, and convinced them to dump the best player of the three for Brewer.
That might not be right, but I'd call it opportunistic and pretty brilliant from Lowe if that was the way it went down.
My impression is that Lowe went to the Blues knowing they were hard up against the new cap with their high-priced trio of Weight, Tkachuk and Pronger, and convinced them to dump the best player of the three for Brewer.
ReplyDeleteI think your threshold for brilliance is a lot lower than mine. Moreover, I'm pretty sure that the Blues specifically wanted to move Pronger because they were stripping the budget down in preparation for the sale of the team.
Tencer Tweetz...
ReplyDeleteOilers grab AHL front office exec Bill Scott to be GM of Barons...
Oilers site -Bill Scott
ReplyDeleteOilers sign Martin Gerber to 1 year deal per http://twitter.com/NHL_Oilers
ReplyDeleteHuzzah!
ReplyDeleteFOUR HEADED MONSTER MOTHERTRUCKERS
ReplyDeleteSo is this a two-way deal? Or is Khabi's back well and truly fucked?
The Gerber signing just makes me laugh. If you think about it, having 4 goalies on one-way deals is pretty funny.
ReplyDeleteIf you think about it, having 4 goalies on one-way deals is pretty funny.
ReplyDeleteI'm finding it difficult to believe, myself. But it's not like he'd take a chance of playing in the AHL when he could play in the KHL, a better league, for more money.
Holy man, we've got a heck of a lot of goalies around here!
ReplyDeleteOkay, so Tencer says 500/200, two ways. What the hell. I don't understand why Edmonton or Gerber do this. I mean, I do, kind of, but then why keep both the kids?
ReplyDeletemc70hockey,
ReplyDeleteI agree with your Pronger assessment. In addition, Pronger needed a new deal and both Weight and Tkachuk were signed. Thus since the Blues were for sale they did not want to have any new long term deals sitting on the books. I am sure it would have been a 3-5 year deal that Pronger was looking for from the Blues.
Four goalies? Four? Do I hear five goalies? Five anyone? Who'll say five?
ReplyDeleteDoogie: They aren't going to. I suspect they'll send two goalies to the farm and if they lose one to waivers oh well.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe one of the goalies will help take faceoffs...
ReplyDeleteI hope he is still the same goalie he was before he broke his neck.
ReplyDeleteHis value is probably pretty low considering he hasn't played hockey in 6+ months, so it could be a great signing for the Barons.
It could also be a big dud.
Here's the video of the hit (and lots of slowly getting him off the ice)
Youtube video
Oilerdago: lol.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Pronger/Brewer thing, there was a time when I would have given more credit to Lowe on that deal. However, his transaction history (outside of the trade deadline 2006) suggests that there was an opportunity made available to him.
As far as I'm concerned we still have zero goalies.
ReplyDeleteThis is like having 12 Studwicks and talking about your depth.
commonfan13, the thing about the blowout losses that year, there were blowout wins attached.
ReplyDeleteThey lost 10-2 to Buffalo, 9-2 to Chicago and 8-3 to Detroit.
They also went and beat Colorado 8-1, Columbus 7-2, and Montreal 7-2.
And after those back to back OT losses to Atlanta and Colorado, they went out and won 3 straight beating St. Louis 2-1, COlorado 8-1 and Chicago 5-4.
As for the team being lifeless, I think that's more of a reflection on the team. They simply weren't a good team. Not very much size and not very much speed.
Hard to look involved when you are missing both of those ingredients.
LT: No one's going to take either of them in trade, and no one's going to take them off waivers. There's too many servicable goalies in the NHL, to the point where pretty much everyone's happy with what they've got. So then you're paying JDD $1M to ride the bus. Why even bother signing JDD at that point? Why bother qualifying him if you don't trust JDD/DD to be the duo in the event Khabi's in jail/rehab? Same question for Dubnyk.
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing just feels very short-sighted. In a vacuum, it makes sense, but in the context of other moves made...I dunno, an error occurred somewhere down the line.
Some interesting comments from a Sports Law Interview of Scott in 2009
ReplyDeleteScott Interview
I like the Gerber signing.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers needed a vet gatekeeper in case Khabibulin isn't ready to go, but can also play in the AHL.
I was looking for a Munroe or a Valiquette myself, but I like Gerber in this role.
New Swiss goaltender for new Swiss coach...
ReplyDeleteWhile the number of goalies is high right now, isn't a cheap veteran goaltender what a lot of people were hoping for?
With all the questions around Khabbi and his surgery/trial and the uncertainty of JDD/DD ever turning the corner, this looks like cheap insurance.
It also could mean this team doesn't have a lottery pick in its seasonal goals.
fpb: The shot about intelligence is only at the (minority of) Eskimos fans who are blaming the teams' struggles on Ricky Ray, a guy who is always discussed as being one of the best three in the league.
ReplyDeleteHorcoff had a lousy year - kind of like the rest of the team. He just had the honor of dragging around JF Jacques and Patrick O'Sullivan against the other team's top lines for extended stretches. You know you've got it bad when getting Moreau as your LW is considered an improvement.
And Traktor - obviously my argument isn't about salary. Horcoff is paid very well (possibly as much as a million per season overpaid, when you look at his larger body of work and not just his worst season on record). But the type of player Horcoff is, in terms of NOT being a guy who needs linemates to babysit him due to defensive shortcomings (see Cogliano, Andrew), we don't have many of those at all.
doogie: Oh I hear you. I'm just saying that the Oilers clearly value one or both of JDD/DD.
ReplyDeleteCan this mean something big that the Players Association may not like very much is coming in regard to Khabibulin?
ReplyDeleteMaybe they've gotten enough legal opinions that they're feeling secure in their ability to terminate his deal.
I'd love to believe it.
And on the Pronger deal, I'd call any transaction that gets a borderline team within 2 goals of a Cup a brilliant one. Roloson was key too of course, but there would not have been a discussion about who was winning the Conn Smyth.
When I refer to not wanting a lottery pick with this signing, I don't mean that Gerber elevates the team by any means.
ReplyDeleteGerber might be a pot hole filler if and when last year's trio starts rattling out of control.
It would seem pretty clear to me that this is a way to further bolster the Oklahoma City goaltending situation. Springfield was terrible last year and that had a lot to do with the fact that both JDD and DD were playing for the Oilers most of the year. Bryan Pitton was a disaster in Springfield and should definitely be playing for Stockton in the ECHL. Or on my men's rec team. I have an opening.
ReplyDeleteThe Gerber signing is a GREAT signing.
ReplyDeleteFor me, it signifies that our farm team will be a lot more competitive next year. That was the one thing we were missing, despite all the plethora of moves Tambellini has made this off-season for OKC.
Gerber will most certainly be sent down, and will most certainly clear waivers at the start of the season when we do it.
Last year, when doobie was called up to the show, the wheels fell off the bus in Springfield (the Falcons were competing for the conference at the time!). That call up, alone ruined that team, although of course there were several other call ups that aided the drop in the standings.
This is great, and I'm impressed with what the Oil have done to try and make OKC's first season as Oilers affiliate a good one. *thumbs up*
It's a two-way, folks, so Gerber fills the gap that had Dubnyk shuttling between Springfield and the big club every weekend. If he outplays the kids (or Nikolai escapes the gulag), then JDD goes on the waiver wire. Oil must feel comfortable enough that he'll pass, or they want Crazy Ivan insurance and don't care about paying the Frenchman this year.
ReplyDeleteAnother Stanley cup ringed goalie with spine issues! Hoorah! I hope he isn't a drinker!
ReplyDeleteGet enough 'maybe' goalies and maybe one of them will do the job?
ReplyDeleteAll while shoring up the Oil Barons.
Another Stanley cup ringed goalie with spine issues! Hoorah! I hope he isn't a drinker!
ReplyDeleteI think this is a very reasonable rate for a Stanley Cup ringed goalie with spine issues. Steve Tambellini circa 2009, take note.
So if we ever recalled Gerber, he'd have to clear re-entry waivers, right? Or is that only if the player's sent down mid-season? Either way, I guess being on the hook for half his cap hit while he played for another team would stop somewhat short of catastrophic.
It was then that the Oilers sunk themselves and went 7-9-4 ...
ReplyDeleteIt was then that the Oilers sunk themselves by trading Erik Cole for Patrick O'Sullivan. I'm not sure why the coach is in line for the blame on that disaster.