Sam Gagner is a smart hockey player. His passes exhibit vision and reflect a solid understanding of the moment. And he is 20.I don't think we're waiting on Sam Gagner to emerge so much as waiting for the Oilers to supply Gagner with hockey players. I don't have an actual count of "butter passes flubbed" but it is up there.
Time and again last season the Oilers would place a Comrie on 89's line and the team would get an outstanding offensive opportunity or score a goal.
On October 22, the Oilers played Gagner with Penner and Hemsky, with predictable results. Penner was the first star, Hemsky 2nd and the kid third star. The totals for that line: 4 goals, 9 assists, 13 points.
Dustin Penner: "That would have to be the best game of my career, certainly statistically. The stars lined up for me and my linemates tonight. It feels really good. I don't know the last time I was on a team that bounced back from down as much as we were. That's one of the games where you know the true meaning of momentum." The game highlights are here.
Sam Gagner is going to explode one of these seasons. I'd suggest betting on him the moment the coach gives him top flight linemates five games in a row. This kid is the real deal.
•Boxcars: 68gp, 15-26-41
•Shots: 170
•Plus Minus: -8 (on a -56 team)
•Corsi (Rel): 10.9 (2nd to Penner)
•GF-GA ON: 37-43
•5x5/60: 1.56 (4th among regulars)
•5x4/60: 5.74 (1st among regulars)
•Quality of Competition: 12th F
•Quality of Teammates: 1st F
•FO %: 47.4% in 709 FO's
•Cap Hit: $1.625M (RFA)
- What do these numbers tell us? His Corsi was 2nd on the team among qualifying forwards and he was second in total scoring chances despite missing 14 games. He is a cerebral player whose talent is so obvious that he is considered a disappointment after three seasons of 40 or more points. In today's NHL. Considering the plumbers, also-rans, never-were's and future Swiss league regulars who graced his wings this past season I'd say Sam Gagner continued to improve.
- How Could these numbers be better? The Oilers under Quinn really did have to make hay when the opportunities where there but couldn't find enough traction for their gifted young players. Dustin Penner's age, strength and experience won the day for him, but a player like Sam Gagner has not yet developed the strength and skills to make things happen on his own. He needed better linemates, no sin in any season but sadly impossible for this one. Suffice to say that when 89 lined up with skilled men, the ice tilted the right way.
- Anything Else in this area? I'm repeating myself but we're talking about things that will come with time: age, experience and maturity. Gagner isn't a big man but increasingly we see him win puck battles and knock others off the puck. I think that's a sign of the development being made. He does have some way to go in the maturity department based on Quinn's exit interview (he said "Sam didn't get as many points as he thought he should get" and then proceeded to talk about maturity and wanting to play on the top line being an earned job). This season seemed to be about improving in underlying, subtle ways but I think his breakout offensive season is just around the corner.
- His PP number looks good. I think one of the things Renney will do right away is borrow some of Horcoff's 5x4 time and hand it to Gagner. Although Hemsky and Gagner have somewhat duplicate skills, they should be able to find ways to complement each other with the man advantage. Perhaps Gagner's role on the PP will be from the point, quarterbacking the play up high and leaving 83 to do his magic between the circles.
- Will Renney play him against tougher opposition? We've talked about this at length, but ideally you'd like to see Gagner center a soft minutes line with real skill in an attempt to post up good 5x5 numbers. If Gagner plays with Penner on a soft minutes line then the sky's the limit. With the big man's ability to dominate down low and Gagner's soft hands and vision, the other winger should book a flight to the All-Star game. We dare to dream.
- Some say Gagner should center two kids, like Hall and MPS? The problem is that they won't have the puck often enough. I'd prefer the team sign Comrie for LW and then use the kid who is going well on RW. Experience will no doubt be the achilles heel of the Oilers 2nd scoring line this season.
- Well, those kids are the skilled wingers you talked about at the top? No, not yet. Taylor Hall is going to score 20 goals but he's going to give up plenty the other way too. You don't want Gagner to babysit, you want him to drive the bus.
- So, you'd like a line of Gagner-Penner-Hemsky? Ideally, yes. However, Gagner isn't ready for the tough minutes that line would face. If Renney had a tough minutes veteran line he could use head-to-head against the Sedins (as an example) they could consider that trio. As it is, I suspect Gagner and Penner will be dragging a rookie around some night and Stortini other nights.
- This is confusing. Damn straight. The Oilers (since G7, SCF) have always had this galling lack of balance. They could drop Horcoff down the depth chart if Gagner was a little more established, or they could move Gagner up the depth chart if Fraser was a better, more proven 2-way center. The Oilers appear to know about the holes, as witnessed by the events surrounding the trade deadline in 2006 spring. I don't know why the team doesn't address these things and suspect it was one of the reasons that the Oilers spent a generation trying for 8th place.
- How Important is Gagner to this team? Less important than he was a year ago. A new golden boy (Taylor Hall) arrives at training camp and the club will have to start paying Gagner now. The Oilers will look at him with a more critical eye beginning in the fall. Having said that, I believe Sam Gagner is going to be a very good NHL hockey player.
- How are the comps coming? At ag 20, Vincent Damphousse was 75gp, 12-36-48 (.640) +2 on a team that was -36. At age 20, Doug Gilmour was 80gp, 25-28-53 (.663) +6 on a team that was +1. At age 20, Sam Gagner was 68gp, 15-26-41 (.603) -8 on a team that was -56. The comps look good at this time, with our guy trailing the field but still in the photo. Gagner's Oilers were a Denver boot to offense, scoring 214 total goals (Gilmour's 293, Vincent's 259) and I think much of the difference can be explained by Gagner's playing in more of a deadball era.
•07-08 5x5 per 60m: 1.96
•08-09 5x5 per 60m: 1.69
•09-10 5x5 per 60m: 1.56
By The Numbers
•07-08 5x4 per 60m: 3.88
•08-09 5x4 per 60m: 3.12
•09-10 5x4 per 60m: 5.74
Predictions Past 2009-10: 78gp, 20-40-60 (.769)
Performance in 2009-10: 68gp, 15-26-41 (.603)
Prediction for 2010-11: 80gp, 16-37-53 (.663)
Give him 2 quality linemates and watch things happen
wonder why it's taking so long to re-sign this guy?
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link to the Oct. 22 game highlights. That passing and puck focus leading up to the second Oilers goal is a dream to watch.
ReplyDeleteGagner up on the point on the PP? That would makes me nervous. Could he reach the net if he had to take a shot? (some sarcasm intended)
ReplyDeleteI think we see him with Penner and either Brule or Paajarvi ideally. Horcoff and Hemsky and another kid, I guess Hall or perhaps the Swede again, to take on the toughs, these guys to take on the secondary shit, then Cogliano and two kids (Holy Smokes we have a lot of guys who don't shave yet!) to take on the softest stuff.
ReplyDeleteThere will be a lot of fun nights and with this D and goaltending there are going to be a lot of nights that are not so fun. A lot more of the latter I am afraid.
But yeah Gagner and a kid who can play and Penner will be a lot of fun. Hemsky and Gagner don't seem to mesh all that great imo so put Hemsky with a shooter.
I agree with Dug: Why is it taking so long to resign him. Can other GMs be making offers at this point?
ReplyDeleteAlso: LT, do see Sam continuing to have a lame 1st half and a killer 2nd half of a season as has been the case? Any thoughts on the cause of this?
89 has been my favorite since his rookie season (and got my first new jersey since my old Klima 85!) and I hope to see him continue the growth. Here's expecting!
I'm hoping while everyone's looking towards the new and improved "kids", Gagner has a good year while they're figuring out how to play in the big league. Don't let me down, Samwise.
ReplyDeletehttp://oilersnation.com/2010/7/2/sam-gagner-and-the-offer-sheet
ReplyDeletesuntory: Usually those things vanish about the time we identify them (its just math and everything evens out in the end) but part of it imo is that Gagner has been in a large group of players trying to establish themselves.
He SHOULD be one of the top 6F's from the get-go this season and that will help him. Or so one would think.
The point would be one spot to get Gagner some PP time, but I'm with Jake, he doesn't really have the shot for it. Or at least last time we saw him, things can change over a summer and a lot of shooting is technique.
ReplyDeleteI think his greatest strength is making moves and passes in tight spots and traffic and to a certain degree his physical attributes work against him in this regard.
I believe Hall would have more success than Gagner on a PP run by Hemsky. That doesn't mean he can't run the 2nd unit from the half wall, though.
He's gonna rack up some serious points in his career, but I doubt we'll see any plus 90 pt seasons.
I too have wondered if the Oil have dangled Gagner in the hopes of getting an offer sheet.
Geez, LT. That was a pretty high bar you set for Sam last year.
ReplyDeleteHe's gonna rack up some serious points in his career, but I doubt we'll see any plus 90 pt seasons.
ReplyDeleteIs this a realistic goal for Gagner? There have been 50 total 90+ point seasons since the lockout, or 10 per season over the entire league.
another thanks for the highlights. the nash fall at the 3:50 mark is hilariously awkward. i remember thinking that penner was better than nash this game and that we'd make playoffs for sure. then the injuries and flu hit.
ReplyDeleteshould be an interesting year for samwise. hopefully whatever him and cogs did last summer was not repeated this summer.
Dug: sure would be nice to get that signing done. I'd consider the off-season complete enough once that deal is done. Yes, it would be nice to get a 3rd line center (Tambi's looking, apparently), yes, it would be nice to trade Souray (OK, understatement..), and yes it might be nice to sign Cogliano, but we can make do for now.
ReplyDeleteIs this a realistic goal for Gagner? There have been 50 total 90+ point seasons since the lockout, or 10 per season over the entire league.
ReplyDeleteThose 50 seasons have been delivered by 28 players. 28 players over five seasons have scored 90 points.
Coach, I'm glad you agree.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, I'm not sure about your use of "goal". Do you really mean upper parameter?
I second the thought that Gagner on the point during the PP probably isn't the best idea. I think a combination of Foster with Whitney or Gilbert would work well on the point anyways. As far as PP2, well... ~where the heck is that Toby Petersen guy...~
ReplyDeleteYou're right though Coach, that is a pretty low number of players.
ReplyDeleteLet's say I will be happily surprised if he can average a PPG in his prime.
I'll take the over.
ReplyDeleteSam's going to rip it up this year.
//I don't think we're waiting on Sam Gagner to emerge so much as waiting for the Oilers to supply Gagner with hockey players.//
ReplyDeleteQuality of Teammates: 1st F
Sorry, LT, does not compute.
Bruce: You've seen the roster, right? Aside from Penner (and Gagner did play with Penner for a significant amount of time) and the 22 Hemsky's, who in your estimation was worthy of being calling top line talent?
ReplyDeleteI know MacT loved to run two C's a lot; I wonder if Renney would maybe put Horcoff and Gagner together on the 2PP or something, have Horcoff at C and Gagner on the wing/halfwall.
ReplyDeleteBruce, Gagner got Qteam 1F basically by default. He played with Penner for more than half his icetime (and Penner's numbers last year would boost anyone's Qteam rating).
ReplyDeleteAnd considering no one else was any good by this metric, Gagner gets the #1 tag. I think what LT means is Penner + a decent winger.
In terms of Gagner and Hemsky working on the PP, that will work. Gagner likes to work down low, Hemsky likes to work on the half boards. The only thing is, Hemsky can't try and run the PP by himself in that situation (which he is famous for). They need to work give & go's from that side to open up the point shot, as well as a cross seam pass to a guy like Penner or Hall.
His role on the #1PP with a healthy Hemsky is below the goalline.
On a side note... Brownlee's a bit of an asshat (reading the Gagner offer sheet article).
ReplyDeleteTigerUnderGlass is absolutely bang on that the Oilers would benefit from Gagner signing a deal that would be considered a bargain in 3 years (which is when you expect the Oilers to compete).
It's years where you aren't a competetive team that you want to be overpaying on potential, that's when you don't need the cap space. Not only that, but you front load the deal so that if he ends up not being worth the cap hit, he is tradable to a team near the floor (which is more valuable than a 35 year old veteran in the same circumstance).
You simply can't win in the NHL without bargain deals to good players. And like we saw with the Hawks (and even the 05-06 Oilers), as soon as you win you need to pay these guys big money.
In all honesty, I'd rather guess wrong with a kid who's going to be 26 in a few years than a guy who is going to be 36. Another team is always going to give a decent 26 year old another chance, especially a team who can't take on much salary but has cap room.
Hypothetically say the Oilers sign Gagner to an 8 year deal worth $4.5 mil/season (broken down to 8-6-6-6-3-3-2-2). Say in 4 years Gagner is topping out as a 50 point player who is good on the PP (which is probably a bad case scenario). If the Oilers decide he's not worth that cap hit anymore and want to trade him, he still has great value. He'd be owed $10 mil over the last 4 years of the deal which is great cash value for that type of player.
Chances with/without Sam Gagner
ReplyDeleteI don't think an in-his-prime, 27 year-old Gagner would be happy making $2 million a year, no matter what he's already banked. A salary structure that's good for the team doesn't necessarily make sense for the player.
ReplyDeleteAlso, would we really want to put him in a position next year where people are yelling about how he's an $8 million player?
An in his prime Gagner, if he has a brain in his head or at least one working for him, would be happier with 8-6-6-6-3-3-2-2 than 2-2-3-3-6-6-6-8 given that a dollar today is more valuable than a dollar tomorrow (unless the American dollar starts deflating, then he's boned!) He gets the same amount of money, but quicker in the first instance.
ReplyDeleteThe only complaint he could have, if he was happy with the total dollar outlay/term, is an obscure beef that maybe it's all a trick to make him easier to trade to Atlanta if he's terrible -- but NHL players generally don't worry about the possibility that they'll be terrible.
I'm fully onboard with that plan, it negates a lot of the risk that comes with a long-term pact to an unproven guy, which is him becoming unmoveable.
DB: Brownlee's an awesome guy, man! When he posts over at ON he always considers everyone else's opinion and he's never a bag of dicks!
ReplyDeleteRegarding 89's numbers I think that him and 10 are gonna be facing toughs and in the long run it will make him a better player but I'm not so sure what it will mean for his counting stats this season.
I look at line construction and I keep going back to 10-83 and 27-89 as the combo's who'll do the tough sledding; all that's left now is who rounds up those wings and we have to imagine it's two of Eberle-MPS-Hall-67.
DB: Brownlee's an awesome guy, man! When he posts over at ON he always considers everyone else's opinion and he's never a bag of dicks!
ReplyDeleteRegarding 89's numbers I think that him and 10 are gonna be facing toughs and in the long run it will make him a better player but I'm not so sure what it will mean for his counting stats this season.
I look at line construction and I keep going back to 10-83 and 27-89 as the combo's who'll do the tough sledding; all that's left now is who rounds up those wings and we have to imagine it's two of Eberle-MPS-Hall-67.
I keep seeing words like "sublime" and "cerebral" to describe Sam Gagner. Is he really that good? There are lots of non-sublime and non-cerebral players who help their teams win hockey games. Don't get me wrong. I like him a lot and I wouldn't trade him, but is the supposed high potential really there?
ReplyDeleteYes, he's still young. I'm trying not to be swayed by his so-far disappointing stats. Instead I'm trying to be objective in only judge his skills and fundamentals. But I have not yet seen Gagner elevate the performance of people around him. And with a few exceptions, I don't see him as a key ingredient (i.e. "game changer") in actually helping us win games. We can't blame all our losses on Moreau, O'Sullivan, and Nilsson. Gagner didn't help much either.
I just don't see the same potential in Gagner that I saw a couple seasons ago and that others still do. I hope I'm wrong.
"Cerebral"? "Sublime"? Those are words better reserved for people who put up more than 45 pts in a season.
Gagner for all the hype still looks over his head, like a major junior superstar twilight zoned before he's ready for the NHL.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely effing hilarious, the way people trot out untold millions and state with the same breath(keystroke?) stuff like "oooo he might not be happy making 2 million a season".
we're all hoping, Hunter, that at only 20 and with 3 years under his belt, and decent linemates coming his way, that this might be the year he has a breakout season. i know i'm hoping!
ReplyDeletei do know if he produces well in the coming years, he'll be well compensated, and not $2 million i dare say! :)
Frelbo, when you consider that he's:
ReplyDeletea) Young
b) Not overly big
c) Not particularily quick
And yet he can still do some of the things he does, it points to something. Guys of that ilk usually don't produce unless they know the game because their physical skillset is limited.
He's learned on the fly in the NHL and he's progressed. Not so much in counting numbers but in terms of contributing to the team. His rookie season saw the most points, but it also saw him be a complete black hole defensively against the leagues lower lines. In that regard he's improved dramatically and is a 20 year old centre who does a lot of things away from the puck better than a typical 20 year old centre usually does.
commanfan13, he may not like it at 27, but he'll sure as hell like it at 21.
ReplyDeleteNot only that, but he'll also be happy if he blows out his knee at 25 and can't play in the NHL anymore.
In terms of the fans giving him shit because he makes $8mil next year... I thought Edmonton had the most knowledgable fans in the league?
That's what they keep telling us.
The sense of banking money early granted, I don't think having his salary decline dramatically as his production crests and his obligations (wife, maybe kids, etc) increase would feel like a great situation.
ReplyDeleteAlso way easier for him to do crazy things with that $8 million as a 21 year-old than as a 27 year-old, whether he recognizes it or not. I don't think we want to give him that much money that young when he hasn't remotely earned it yet. Many athletes have been ruined by less.
And I'll keep the intelligence of Oiler and NHL fans in general in mind the next hundred times I hear about how Horcoff was a $7 million player last year.
'//I don't think we're waiting on Sam Gagner to emerge so much as waiting for the Oilers to supply Gagner with hockey players.//
ReplyDeleteQuality of Teammates: 1st F
Sorry, LT, does not compute."
I had a laugh at that as well.
Gags has been playing with the best, against the worst for 3 straight years.
Cogliano would have killed to have Gagner's linemates last year. Would have killed him offensively too.
Traktor, that's quality of teammates on by far the worst NHL team in the league.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest of your statement it's not even close to applicabble.
07-08:
Gagner - QC 7th / 1st QT
Cogliano - QC 10th / 5th QT
08-09:
Gagner - QC 4th / 7TH QT
Cogliano - QC 8th / 8th QT
09-10:
Gagner - QC 12th / 1st QT
Cogliano - QC 6th / 4th QT
There's a gap, but it doesn't add up to 0.26 PPG (their difference last year).
Gags has been playing with the best, against the worst for 3 straight years.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the best of the Oilers (after Penner and Hemsky) Horcoff? And doesn't that say something about being rated first in QualTeam on the Oil?
I think what we need to remember about Gagner is that he is keeping his head above water on a team that is nearly universally underwater. As well as putting up 40+ point seasons in his teens. Considering most offensive guys don't break out before 24, this is a notable achievement.
I don't believe he is at a Crosby level of potential, but he sure is a good bet to surpass 70 pts on a fairly consistent basis. Not a bad piece to have on a contending team.
I thought Edmonton had the most knowledgable fans in the league?
ReplyDeleteThat's what they keep telling us.
I keep hearing it's Montreal.
Explains a lot, doesn't it?
dawgbone:
ReplyDeleteHow many games has Gagner played with Moreau over the past 2 years?
How many has Cogs?
You're comparing a lead off guy to clean up guy. Gags should have a ton of more RBI's for where he has played the last 3 years. Nobody is ever on base when Cogs is up.
Gags is only 20 years old and already has had knee, ankle and hip problems. An 8 year contract at this point would be absolutely crazy.
"I don't believe he is at a Crosby level of potential, but he sure is a good bet to surpass 70 pts on a fairly consistent basis. Not a bad piece to have on a contending team."
ReplyDeleteA 70 point center is nice. A 70 point center with intangibles is even nicer. Sometimes a 50 point center with intangibles is better than the Sam Gagner's and Pierre-Marc Bouchard's of the world.
Anything less than 65 points from Gagner and I'll be pretty disappointed. Damphousse scored 94 points in his 4th year.
And I'll keep the intelligence of Oiler and NHL fans in general in mind the next hundred times I hear about how Horcoff was a $7 million player last year.
ReplyDeleteI might have missed it, but did someone claim that Horcoff earned his salary last year? I don't think that's typical for an Oilers fan to affirm... A dissenting opinion, I would call that.
Sometimes a 50 point center with intangibles is better than the Sam Gagner's and Pierre-Marc Bouchard's of the world.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, you like Shawn Horcoff more than you like Sam Gagner?
Thanks for the link to the Oct. 22 game highlights. That passing and puck focus leading up to the second Oilers goal is a dream to watch.
ReplyDeleteThat clip was great, but it reminded me too that (a) Khabibulin is overrated and (b) Penner is the MAN!
You're comparing a lead off guy to clean up guy. Gags should have a ton of more RBI's for where he has played the last 3 years. Nobody is ever on base when Cogs is up.
ReplyDeleteMoreau was a hard worker, but I don't think your analogy really works considering Ethan was 9-9-18.
Anything less than 65 points from Gagner and I'll be pretty disappointed. Damphousse scored 94 points in his 4th year.
ReplyDeleteAre you allergic to context?
Damphousse was 22 to start that year and turned 23.
Damphousse only ever got more points once in his career and his SH% that year was significantly higher than his career average. Part of that breakout year was determined by good bounces.
Sorry to all who had their comments deleted, but we're just way off topic.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIf the Oilers go with a Horc/Hemsky/X and Gagner/Penner/X line up, I worry about 27/89/X getting the puck moving out of their own zone. I'd like to see 27/89 play most of their minutes with one of or both Gilbert and Whitney. I figure a healthy Horc and a healthy Hemmer can get the puck moving in the right direction with lesser help from the back end. Nothing against Smid, Vandermeer and Foster, but Whitney and Gilbert they aint.
ReplyDeleteI might have missed it, but did someone claim that Horcoff earned his salary last year? I don't think that's typical for an Oilers fan to affirm... A dissenting opinion, I would call that.
ReplyDeleteThe ignorant and popular claim is not that Horcoff earned his salary, but that he cost the Oilers $7 million. Horcoff was a $5.5 million player last year, because on a cap team the number that matters it the cap hit, not the salary.
Trad Sam Gagner for Martin Hanzal. wait and see
ReplyDelete