Those who have read this blog for a time know we have high regard for Riley Nash. Math loves him, he's got a great big brain and he's a center. A lot to like. The Edmonton Oilers loved him draft day 2007, to the point where the club traded up to get him (this was the final KP draft, coincidentally).
Since then, the club has not been enamored with his choice of college (Cornell), the league the Big Red play in (apparently it is inferior to other NCAA leagues) and his inability to put on weight (we'll call it Niinimaki syndrome).
At Lowetide we love Riley Nash; we've written about him about 30 times and most of those posts have been glowing. What's not to like? Math suggests he has improved season over season and now we have confirmation that other NHL teams believe he has some value. Guy Flaming's latest ponderings give us some valuable information.
- Dean (Millard) has learned that the two teams had talks earlier this season involving Riley Nash and Mikko Lehtonen. We're not sure if it was a 1-for-1 swap but after we both spoke with sources from teams in each conference, we know that Nash does have some value around the league. In this case we're led to believe that it was Edmonton that wouldn't green light the trade.
The same article suggests Montreal also liked Nash around draft day. If the Oilers don't sign Nash by next summer they will be compensated with (I believe) the 51st overall pick in 2012. That's the line in the sand for Nash; if the Oilers are going to trade him the value has to be higher than the 51st pick in next season's amateur selection.
Is Lehtonen better? Haven't a clue. The value in the article from Guy is that the Oilers are talking to teams and Riley Nash is in the conversation. The chances of Nash playing for the Oilers cannot be great at this moment.
Shouldn't an organization trying to rebuild its reputation as a player-friendly franchise be bending over backwards to make Riley Nash one happy camper?
ReplyDeleteShort of guaranteeing an NHL spot (if they're not going to do it for Paajarvi or Eberle, they're sure not going to do it for Nash), this organization should be doing everything to get him signed.
Paper Designer: I think the Oilers are frustrated because he'd like to play another year at Cornell. OR he's using it as a bargaining chip (playing another year) in an effort to force a trade.
ReplyDeleteEither way, it doesn't look good for Nash as an Oiler.
i really don't care now if he plays here or not! we are going to have some depth at center with probably Seguin being chosen and either 2 of Gagner/Horcoff/Spezza so we now probably don't need him and he does have some trade value it sounds like.
ReplyDeleteThat's definitely a bummer. I really hope Nash stays with the Oilers organization because I still think he'll be a terrific pro.
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteHow could a young guy, with the organizations future looking bright in the next few years NOT want to be a part of it?
Something wrong here.
My suspicion for some time has been that that Nash might be waiting to see if the Oilers draft Seguin. You have to admit his immediate prospects with the club don't look great with Seguin, Gagner & Horcoff ahead of him in the depth chart. It also seems as if he has no intention of playing on this team's AHL club. Of course with Springfield's record who can blame him. Maybe he would reconsider if Hall is number one.
ReplyDeleteShanetrain
ReplyDeleteNot sure but that your fan "hat" is not what caused you to characterize the " organizations future looking bright in the next few years"
Other than Gagner who's numbers have fallen slightly over the last 2 years (while improving), we have no draft picks that are excelling as young Oilers...and no I do not consider Gilbert young. So do we have some bright prospects? ....yup: Eberle, MPS and the # 1 but not one of them have performed at the NHL level yet.
So if you were from Missouri you would say----don't tell me how good you are gonna be--show me. And so far the Oilers have shown us a group of players capable of being between 20 and 30th in a 30th team league
If the prospects pan out...I completely agree with your optimism-
Who cares, I'd just as rather ship Horcoff, Gagner, and Nash out for Spezza. That's a real NHL player for you.
ReplyDeleteLT I think you've nailed it. The org has soured on Nash, Nash has soured on the org and so he's going to force a trade.
ReplyDeleteTo maximize his value, he may be needed as a "sweetner" in order to offload Souray's contract - which right now is not attracting much interest (Corsi's aside).
And if not a sweetner with Souray, it would not surprise me at all to see him part of a bigger trade.
The summer of Tambellini should get very interesting over the next 3.5 weeks.
i'm not giving up on a 20 year old Gagner just yet, JD!
ReplyDeleteOT: Looks like the suggestions I sent you in the e-mail is working! Hovering on page 2-3 of Google in such a short time span is EXTREMELY impressive.
ReplyDeleteHow could a young guy, with the organizations future looking bright in the next few years
ReplyDeleteYou're an optimistic fan. You hope the future is bright.
I doubt the future is that bright for an Oilers squad with Hemsky holding it back for another two years.
ReplyDeleteI doubt the future is that bright for an Oilers squad with Hemsky holding it back for another two years.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot the sarcasm symbol
OR
You get patted on the head when you remember to flush.
Eric: Yeah that worked like a damn. I don't know if there's money to be made in this thing but I'm calling you when I figure it out. :-)
ReplyDeleteEric: Yeah that worked like a damn. I don't know if there's money to be made in this thing but I'm calling you when I figure it out. :-)
ReplyDeleteLT - If you want to be higher in Google searches for 'Oilers' just ask us all to search Oilers every time we come to your site and then click on you. That would move you up pretty quickly.
bookie: Nah, I don't want to cheat.
ReplyDeleteLT: Everyone cheats.
ReplyDeleteIt's like the Steroids ERA in baseball. Won't do it.
Well exept if your Ken Griffey JR.
Yeah but he slept through the whole thing. :-)
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely hoping Nash signs a deal before next summer. I can understand his desire to get a great education though, can't blame a kid for thinking about life after hockey, although it would be nice to know what his intentions are so the franchise can move forward with or without him.
ReplyDeleteI've always found it weird when some organizations had ''Communnication problems'' I mean, just how damn hard is fixing up a meeting, like lunching with one of your first round picks or incoming UFA's?
ReplyDeleteSam Pollock lost an entire season of Ken Dryden when the Habs were ripping it up. Shit happens.
ReplyDeleteIf Nash = 2011 51st, I have no issue losing him to sweeten the Souray return or to help grab another pick on the 25th.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, a 1-for-1 would be kind of a let down as I think Nash might be one of those gems if we're patient. Would hate to trade him for another GM's pain-in-the-ass.
"How could a young guy, with the organizations future looking bright in the next few years NOT want to be a part of it?"
ReplyDeletewhether the team does well or not, he'd be fighting for ice-time against a boatload of other promising prospects.
so he may be trying to force a trade in order to hitch his train to a team which needs better prospects and would be eager to give him the playing time to prove himself.
If you sour on a player for anything but his on-ice performance, I say the problem is with you, not the player.
ReplyDeleteWhat the heck do they need Nash now for? Even if he takes a few years more to become the excellent 7th forward they were hoping for (in the mold of Cleary in Detroit) because of his extended stay at Cornell, this team isn't going to have a serious shot at contending until he's 25 or 26 anyway, well within the time he'll need to adjust his game to NHL speed, even if he starts pro at 23.
For an organization that's started chanting patience like a mantra, they sure don't seem to be showing a lot of patience with a young man who has an opportunity to get a degree at an ivy league school AND push for an NHL job when he's done.
If they don't get this young man to at least an NHL camp, after what they did on draft day to grab him, it's a colossal failure for this organization.
Unless they use him to pick up Spezza, but that's a whole other story.
Lowetide: I'm very convinced you can make some easy pocket change if you wanted to. Just shoot me an e-mail at any time!
ReplyDeleteAt the time of the pick, I considered Riley Nash a charcoal pick. Throw him in NCAA and see if he becomes a diamond. Right now, I think he's coming out as a broken piece of charcoal.
ReplyDeleteIf the return right now is Mikko Lehtenen, I'd rather find a draft pick instead and try and make another diamond.
A poster with some connections on the HF Sens board is claiming that Spezza will be moved by the end of the week to one of two teams and there's just some finagling over adding in a 2nd round pick.
ReplyDeleteA poster with some connections on the HF Sens board is claiming that Spezza will be moved by the end of the week to one of two teams and there's just some finagling over adding in a 2nd round pick.
ReplyDeleteIs there any way that this is good. What if it were Spezza straight up for Souray (I know this won't happen, but I am kind of wondering where the 'line' is for those who hate this deal).
Bookie:
ReplyDeleteNo first round picks, no Gagner, no Hemsky, no Penner, no Eberle, no MPS.
... in other words, no way Ottawa does it, as they're not trading Spezza to Edmonton for Cogliano, Brule and Souray.
Which team was also in the race?
ReplyDeleteI think if we grab Spezza and Horcoff doesn't go the otherway it's a big sign that we'll draft Hall, because we'll then be overloaded at Center.
Tough i never believed that changing positions was so hard.
LT - Good post with an interesting question. What is Riley Nash's (possibly underdeveloped) potential worth? Seems like more than 51 OV next year. What does it mean that Denis Grebeshkov was traded for the 48th OV then?
ReplyDeleteMaybe they soured on him because he's not developing on their curve at Cornell, but maybe they have actually met with him and decided they don't want him in the locker room.
I like Spezza. I think he's a good player. But he is expensive and the deal is really only useful if the young kids break out while he's on this contract.
ReplyDeleteCompensation will be the 51st pick in the 2012 draft. Signing deadline is August 15, 2011. See the comments section in Guy's post
ReplyDeletei'm a little curious to know why everyone's assumed the oilers have soured on Nash and vise versa. It seems the suggestion was made by some bloggers a while back and now everyone has taken that opinion as gospel. Is Nash on record as saying he intends to force a trade or re-enter the draft? Have the oilers gone public with their alleged displeasure? If so then please, direct me to the link. It seems as though through our lack of patience we've painted Riley as some scheming, pretentious brat who's had a hidden agenda from day 1. Truth is nobody but Riley and the oilers know exactly what the relationship between the two is like. What we do in fact know is that he's a kid from Consort, Alberta who was drafted from an inferior junior league and was given a free ride at an Ivy league school. I know its boring, but maybe we should see how it all plays out before anyone rushes to judgement or trades him to Montreal to play with his brother ( does that sound ridiculous to anyone else?) .
ReplyDeleteDevon,
ReplyDeleteEdIt wasn't bloogers, but Bob Stauffer, and Pendegrast alluded to it when he was still with the organization.
Stauffer contends that Nash wants a guaranteed spot in the NHL or he won't leave school early.
There is no easier team to make than the team that finished 30th, is he that unsure of his ability?
If he doesn't want to go through AHL, then maybe he should move on to another team.
If he wants to play in the NHL I cankt see many teams capitulating to his demand.
Perhaps its just a ploy to get traded.
Who knows.
Should read "It wasn't bloggers..."
ReplyDeletei wouldn't mind seeing horcoff + cogliano + 31st overall going to ottawa for spezza + cheechoo [we bury cheechoo in the minors and eat his salary for a year until he's UFA]
ReplyDeletei think what ottawa is looking for would be be something similar, but with gagner and/or penner in the mix. they might take souray to replace some of the defensemen they're losing this summer [volchenkov, cullen]
there's no way we should give up gagner. penner is going to want out of here in a couple of years and we're probably going to need to trade him eventually, so i don't mind seeing him traded. just not sure trading him for spezza is the right move.
I'm not sure either Penner or Hemsky will want out if they get to play with Jason Spezza.
ReplyDeleteLordy what an explosive line that could be.
I prefer bloogers.
ReplyDeleteBut then again I published the same post 18 different times earlier today.
Do we not have another year on Nash? If that's so, why not be patient?
Edited to add:
Uh oh, Blooger's messing with my shit again...
Whew.
ReplyDeletewoodguy,
ReplyDeleteI have heard that Stauffer is definately in the know, but it's hard for me to believe that a young man with the smarts to attend Cornell would be so arrogant as to demand a roster spot. At least i want to believe that. Theres been plenty of high calibre players that did their 4 years of school and while i'm too daft to recall any off the top of my head, i wonder if they saw the same type of criticism from the drafting teams fanbase. We have a potentially great player, who's smart and quirky enough to realize that there indeed is more to life than hockey. I want to give this guy every opportunity to make the club. I just think its too ludicrous to believe he has a bias against the oilers, but if he does re-enter the draft, i'll club the bitch myself.
//How could a young guy, with the organizations future looking bright in the next few years NOT want to be a part of it//
ReplyDeleteHe's going to Cornell. Probably a girlfriend from some loaded family in the northeast United States.
We've had this discussion before, but saying that he'll sign with the Oilers only if he's guaranteed an NHL spot isn't necessarily arrogant. It's arrogant if he thinks he *deserves* a guaranteed NHL spot, but we don't know that he thinks that. If McDonald's said they wanted me to work as a line cook for them, I might say I'd do it for a minimum of $120K per year; that doesn't mean that I think I'd deserve $120K per year as a line cook, just that that's what it would take to make me agree to do it.
ReplyDeleteThis is tough. Do I respond to SpOILers post or wait for the next one? :-)
ReplyDeleteSpezza's back won't suirvive first contact with Robyn Regehr.
ReplyDeleteIf Tambellini wants to lose his job qiickly, trade for Spezza, and saddle Katz with that albatross of a contract.
PMMMSPSTSTTPPMMPTT BWAAAHAHAHHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
ReplyDeleteWonderful. Now I gotta windex this puppy.
I agree with Steve. no where has the kid come out and said "Hey I deserve a roster spot and I won't play unless I'm given one". What I think he was probably getting at once for him to leave a degree at Ivy School on the table would be to have a roster spot, otherwise he probably just rather get his degree which has some value to him. And good on the kid, he didn't pick the oilers, the oilers picked him. Why should he have to give up a free education just because the oilers want him riding the bus in the AHL. And where is the rush, lets show some patience and let the kid finish school
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what Stauffer said, I'm not in town any more, but it strikes me that although MBS didn't draft this kid, he would've seen him, being based out of Kamloops. He's surely seen him at Cornell too.
ReplyDeleteThere's the college life and then there's the college life. I'd be willing to bet that Cornell's team doesn't have the same off-ice structure that the Frozen Four's regular customers do. Does he have the same work ethic as Horc and Gilbert at the same age? He must be a pretty smart boy academically, which doesn't necessarily translate into hard-working.
ReplyDeleteAnd there's Ivy League hockey...
Maybe the consensus is that he's under-achieving at Cornell?
Re: Spezza.
ReplyDeleteSame guy is saying it's:
Bouwmeester, Backlund for Spezza, Lee.
I'd chalk that up as a huge win for Calgary, but they would suddenly have huge question marks on D.
His degree can no longer be the issue. Surely he can complete it over a few years in Spring and Summer sessions. He can only have 5-6 full courses to go.
ReplyDeletePDO...
ReplyDeleteI think the Sens would require a centre back.
Spoiler:
ReplyDeleteNevermind the kind of shambles Calgary's D would be in.
He threw out this as well:
"columbus as well.....i dont know what its going to look like but they dont really want to give up there 4th overal pick....something like brassard voracek and russell or change one for filitov kinda thing"
Now I know who you must be talking about. Good grief.
ReplyDeleteHas Nash improved in his 3 years? Yes.
ReplyDeleteIMO it's being very charitable to consider it anything other than marginal improvement.
Still better than regressing, I guess. I can't really blame the Oilers if they don't feel like bending over backwards to woo a kid that hasn't yet shown at least a semblance of enthusiasm for a team that drafted him quite a bit higher than most pundits expected him to go.
I'm all for patience, but only if it's for someone that's a good bet for being worth the wait and time investment. At this stage, Nash is more likely to be the next Steve Moore than the next Shawn Horcoff.
sPoiler:
ReplyDeleteNot Eklund.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=784174
Mods there are saying he's nailed a bunch in the past.
Really? Sorry, I don't go there. The way it was worded, sounded just like the Philadelphia Phake. That would be a stunning trade. How would Sutter survive the optics?
ReplyDeleteNo worries, I only skim through on my days off these days.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea how Sutter would fix that D, but he wouldn't have a problem selling it "Spezza to Iginla... we found our #1 C."
Buddy is saying it's between Cbj/Cgy/Edm/Phx... take it for what it's worth, which isn't a whole lot... but at least it's something other than Horcoff being the worst hockey player in the history of the NHL, Hall/Seguin, or a new arena.
Gagner + Horcoff + Nash + Chorney
ReplyDeletefor
Spezza + Cheechoo
Trading their two best defencemen inside 4 months, after just acquiring one of them, thus absolutely gutting their D would be a tough sell and a whole lot of pressure. Sutter's pitch would be heard, but it would have to pan out. ...In terms of wins not Iggie's point totals.
ReplyDeleteThen again, would their D be worse than ours? Are Oil fans really in a position to point their finger s and laugh at anyone's D?
ReplyDeleteTraktor
ReplyDeleteWhy the hell would we want to do:
"Gagner + Horcoff + Nash + Chorney
for
Spezza + Cheechoo"
That makes absolutely no sense from an Oiler perspective. We give up our 2 best centers for a good offensive center that does not kill penalties, check tough opponenets or win draws.
Cheechoo is done
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet but Guy had this to add in the comments of that post....
ReplyDelete(they wouldn't get a comp pick in 2011 because the deadline to sign Nash next year will be Aug 15th... after the 2011 draft).
Other John:
ReplyDeleteEdmonton gets the best player in the deal by a landslide and gets rid of the 2nd worst contract in the NHL.
The last time Spezza was under 50% on the draw was 2003/2004 so I think he can win draws.
Malkin and Getzlaf doesn't kill penalties either - they must be useless.
Other John:
ReplyDeleteBut we get to keep Cogliano, and he finishes better than Mario!
Trading their two best defencemen inside 4 months,
ReplyDeleteWhat prize do we have! the massive fail prize!
Phanuef was the second worst defensive dman in the league 08-09. And continued that to start 09-10
The trade to TO was a kick in the ass. he is alot better right now in toronto but was playing like shite in Calgary. He had to go.
The neat thing is that toronto fans think they gave up nothing.
In reality gave up the 20th best scoring LW in the league.
25th best set-up center
and top 30 points producing Dman.
Three 1st liners for the Phanuef.
Then you dump the fourth best Dman by numbers behind Giardano, Reghr, White to get Spezza.
I look at results not in your mind Fantasy.
Horcoff and Cheechoo both have negative value, Horcoff more because his deal is longer. Throw in Nash and Chorney to offset some of Horcoff's negative value and then the deal is pretty much Gagner for Spezza.
ReplyDeleteIf Gagner ever becomes as good as Spezza he will be making the same type of money too.
The funny thing is Ottawa would laugh and hang up if Tambellini proposed that deal.
Ricki, the context was optics. Public perception.
ReplyDeleteTraktor, if there'd another person on this planet you can convince that Horc has lower value than Cheechoo, I'll be flabbergasted.
ReplyDeletespoiler:
ReplyDeleteHorcoff has 23 million dollars left on his deal
Cheechoo has 3.5 million left on his deal.
If you think Horcoff has more value then you really don't know much about the business side of things.
Your statement also proves what it's ten times more than what you know about hockey.
ReplyDeleteTraktor, why didn't you list the $$ in per-game numbers? You know, so we can get a real good look at how valuable the players are?
ReplyDeleteOr are you forgetting that Horcoff will undoubtedly score more points over the remainder of his deal than Cheechoo? He'll probably throw more hits too.
Wow, this rhetoric shit is too easy.
ReplyDeletespoiler:
ReplyDeleteCheechoo's deal is done after this year and then Horcoff has 4 more years on his.
So basically what you're arguing is that Horcoff at a 5.5 cap hit is a more valuable asset than 5.5 million in cap space.
That's just asinine.
Kind of like saying Redden at 6.5 is a better asset than 6.5 million in cap space. Redden was +8 compared to Horcoff's -27 last year btw.
Traktor...
ReplyDeleteWe're not going to agree on the details, but the issue is if you feel Horc is an overpay, then by how much? IMO the true value of his contract (or potential play next year is more than Cheechoo's cap hit. Ergo...
Nor is market for actual NHL players like going to the store and getting a better apple. Or even a better Apple.
Why is cap space so good? Like money, it's meaningless until you buy something with it.
ReplyDeleteBtw Tractor Horcoff played 77 games to Redden's 75, might want to prorate the plus-minus too, just to make sure everyone knows exactly what you're talking about.
Cap space is easier to field than an actual team. That's why there's a floor written into the CBA.
ReplyDelete"Or are you forgetting that Horcoff will undoubtedly score more points over the remainder of his deal than Cheechoo?"
ReplyDeleteHorcoff will score more points than Cheechoo next year.
But then Edmonton has 5.5 million in cap space cleared through 2014/2015 that could used much more efficiently than paying Shawn Horcoff 300 cents on the dollar.
ppl here think too little of spezza. fact. his counting and advanced stats scream rare breed. iginla dreams of a center of that caliber and edmonton hasn't seen a player with that talent in years.
ReplyDeletei don't get why so many oiler's fans keep gripping to the product of a 30th ranked team. WE'RE DEAD LAST! i don't think spezza or the equivalent would be the worst thing this team has done in it's recent history.
traktor...i think you put horcoff out there when you really mean to crucify mgt...but i agree with you more than not.
Mikko Lehtinen is a player I'd like to see the Oilers move on.
ReplyDeleteHe's had two solid years in the AHL (developing) - has size, speed(?) and skill. RW.
I'd be surprised however, if Boston would move him for Nash straight up. Boston needs wingers don't they?
If it was an offer to be re-visited, and the Oilers were to make that trade and then sign UFA-Boychuk July 1st...
I'd actually be impressed.
3x??? Hahaha. You're your own argument's worst enemy. And I suppose too that you're evaluating Horcoff mostly on a season where the team around him was so injured, it set a record. Talk about asinine. That's mentally incompetent.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletespoiler:
ReplyDeleteHorcoff could put up 50 points on a line with Penner and Hemsky and make his contract look like less of an overpay but the problem is he belongs on the 3rd line and he will never get that type of production there.
These are some players that signed last season:
Saku Koivu 3.25 million
John Madden 2.75 million
Steve Reinprecht 2 million
Brendan Morrison 1.5 million
Dom Moore 1.1 million
Manny Malhotra 700k
Career Points per Game
Saku Koivu 0.80
Brendan Morrison 0.65
Steve Reinprecht 0.58
Shawn Horcoff 0.58
John Madden 0.40
Dom Moore 0.34
Manny Malhotra 0.32
The average PPG from those players is 0.47 and the average salary is 1.883
Horcoff averages 0.11 PPG more than the average but averages 3.7 million more than the average.
At minimum he is overpaid by 2.25 million (Saku Koivu is making 3.25 and he clearly a better player than Horcoff) but I think its closer to 3 million a year.
Cheechoo is 3.5 million in dead money. Horcoff is 11.25-15 million in dead money.
"And I suppose too that you're evaluating Horcoff mostly on a season where the team around him was so injured, it set a record."
ReplyDeleteDid I mention that Penner set career highs in goals, assists and points last year?
Not every player in the NHL needs an Ales Hemsky to produce you know.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTalking about asinine statements, I count the following ones in this thread:
ReplyDelete- Horcoff is only productive offensively with Hemsky (fact: good players play with good players if your team has any interest in winning games - they don't, however, have the magical ability to make Patrick O'Sullivan and JF Jacques look good when going head to head with other team's first lines, this being the realm of only those players named "Gretzky", "Crosby", and the like)
- Horcoff belongs on a third line (this is one of the biggest garbage statements that an Oiler fan can make, period - I won't even gratify it with a counter-point, it's THAT big a pile of crap)
- Trading Horcoff and Gagner for Spezza is a good idea (ummm, good teams have depth, so no it's not)
- Horcoff is worse value than Cheechoo (yeah, sure....he's worse than a guy who spent significant time in the AHL last season)
- Horcoff is getting paid "300 cents on the dollar" (a person could legitimately argue that he's overpaid by a million a season and I'd buy it, but to say he should be making 1.8 million a season is ignorant, as is to say he's "15 million in dead money" - it's flat out garbage).
On top of all this, we've got numbers getting thrown out without context (comparing Horcoff and Redden's plus minuses without consideration for position played, teammates, or opposition).
I don't get how someone who clearly has some above-average degree of intelligence (Traktor) drops about 100 IQ points when the topic of Shawn Horcoff comes up. It baffles my mind.
In short: he is a proven tough-minutes center (as per numerous previous arguments and write-ups by people with far better computer skills than I) capable of 55-65 points per season in an average, representative season (i.e. NOT 2009-10) who is no worse than a 2nd line center on the majority of NHL teams (obvious exceptions being those squads like Pittsburgh and Detroit with two top-20 centres on their roster).
He's overpaid, but not to the degree of being the 2nd worst contract in the NHL - the 1 million per season in dead cap space which I believe he represents (worst-case) is less than a crime than the dead cap space represented by the cap hits of individuals such as Robert Nilsson, Ethan Moreau, Patrick O'Sullivan and Nikolai Khabibulin (all of whom are overpaid by greater than said 1 million dollar figure). It's not possible to be the 2nd worst contract in the league while only being, in my opinion at least, the 5th biggest "cap concern" on your own team.
Can we go back and argue about Robbie Schremp or something?
ReplyDelete@spoiler & HBomb:
Don't feed the Horcoff trolls please.
Re: Horcoff - I'd be willing to believe all the numbers/rhetoric being put out there if he didn't have an absolute train-wreck of a season.
ReplyDeleteCareer averages don't hold water to last year, and in sports you're only as good as your last year. The contract doesn't help.
The injury is also a concern, as it could limit him in the future.
I understand Gagner is due a bump in salary due to RFA, but it's incredibly short-sided to deal him now even if we can ditch Horc.
I'd rather see Gagner's growth than Spezza's pouting. Been there done that.
Cheechoo is an interesting character. He goes from 50+ goals in a season to nothing. Wow, talk about a 'got my contract' dive. It was not even a huge contract.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTraktor:
ReplyDeleteHere is a metaphor based on situation.
Horcoff is asked to kick 50-55 yard feildgoals and you expect results like he is always kicking from 35 yards.
The sheer lack of understanding the importance of zone start and qual of Comp and salary based on current skill group.
Short sighted cherry picking is Pathetic.
I know this is neither Horcoff nor Spezza related, but I found it interesting that Scott Arniel (my choice to coach the Oilers) is finally getting his break with Columbus next season. Of course, he gets it as second choice to Boucher, but a gig is a gig, right?
ReplyDeleteJust got an Oilers email saying Jeff Deslauriers is appearing at the Rexall Place draft party....for his sake I hope he doesn't get dealt during the first round!
ReplyDeleterickibear said...
ReplyDeleteTraktor:
Here is a metaphor based on situation.
Horcoff is asked to kick 50-55 yard feildgoals and you expect results like he is always kicking from 35 yards.
The sheer lack of understanding the importance of zone start and qual of Comp and salary based on current skill group.
Short sighted cherry picking is Pathetic.
See, the thing is, players in Horcoff's salary range CAN kick 50-55 yard field goals.
Have you done a zone start analysis for all of them or do they all start in the offensive zone all the time?
What percentage of faceoffs actually occur in the defensive zone as opposed to offensive or neutral zones? What percentage of Horcoff's faceoffs actually occurred in the defensive zone?
Or is this "zone start" thing just an example of cherry picking stats to provide an alibi for someone who can't kick 50-55 yard field goals?
And if possible, instead of Horcoff's value as a hockey player could we discuss something less divisive like the Mid-East peace process or abortion law in Canada?
ReplyDeleteWhat percentage of faceoffs actually occur in the defensive zone as opposed to offensive or neutral zones? What percentage of Horcoff's faceoffs actually occurred in the defensive zone?
ReplyDeleteDidn't bother looking at all faceoffs ever in the history of humanity, but I did take a sample of 28 of the 30 highest paid centers by cap hit in this upcoming season (Nylander didn't play, and Cammalleri's vlookup didn't work so I got lazy) and break it out by that peer group.
In sum, the group took 9,109 O-Zone draws, 8,693 D-Zone draws, and 10,850 N-Zone draws. Thus, as a group, they averaged 48.8% of their non N-Zone draws in the D-Zone (or 30.3% of all draws in the D-Zone.)
As a comparison, Horcoff ranked 5th of 28th in terms of difficulty of draws, taking 54.7% D/O or 33.9% D / Total. 5th - 3rd were essentially zero difference, Legwand and Drury topped the list with brutal seasons.
First column is O/D, second is D / Total:
Toews, Jonathan - 41.2% - 25.8%
Malkin, Evgeni - 41.9% - 26.6%
Backstrom, Nicklas - 42.0% - 25.3%
Sedin, Henrik - 42.3% - 26.8%
Crosby, Sidney - 43.3% - 26.9%
Briere, Daniel - 43.5% - 26.9%
Connolly, Tim - 44.1% - 27.2%
Gomez, Scott - 44.4% - 26.0%
Lecavalier, Vincent - 44.6% - 26.8%
McDonald, Andy - 44.8% - 29.6%
Spezza, Jason - 45.3% - 26.4%
Carter, Jeff - 46.7% - 30.2%
Kessel, Phil - 47.6% - 29.2%
Staal, Eric - 48.2% - 28.8%
Kopitar, Anze - 48.7% - 29.8%
Datsyuk, Pavel - 49.6% - 31.5%
Arnott, Jason - 50.0% - 32.1%
Thornton, Joe - 50.2% - 31.7%
Getzlaf, Ryan - 50.9% - 30.4%
Richards, Brad - 51.3% - 32.6%
Bergeron, Patrice - 51.9% - 32.8%
Richards, Mike - 53.2% - 33.8%
Ribeiro, Mike - 54.2% - 34.4%
Horcoff, Shawn - 54.7% - 33.9%
Stastny, Paul - 54.8% - 33.5%
Kesler, Ryan - 54.9% - 34.6%
Legwand, David - 58.7% - 34.0%
Drury, Chris - 61.3% - 41.2%
Bar Qu:
ReplyDeleteGood point.
Traktor's comments on Horcoff are about as subtle as an Israeli military flotilla interception. Furthermore, I fully support a late-term abortion of Ethan Moreau's contract.
I think the Oilers would appreciate it if we referred to Horcoff as "2008 All-Star Shawn Horcoff" from now on.
ReplyDeleteThe whole Horcoff thing is much like the "we should have drafted Parise" thing...we've all heard everything everyone has to say on the issue upteen times. That is a dead horse. That horse has expired. It is no more. Stop beating it.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me miss!
ReplyDeleteNo it isn't!.
I don't know what I find more disturbing:
ReplyDeleteThat if there were a "Beat it the most and Win" contest on the Oilogosphere that I think Tractor would beat his "Horcoff's contract is the worst in the NHL" drum more than Pat would beat his meat...
or...
That this was the first thing that came to mind after reading the beating a dead horse comment by Chris...
Man we're a special bunch us Oilers fans...
@PDO
ReplyDeletePoster saying Spezza would be traded was admittedly screwing around.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=784245
2008 All-Star Shawn Horcoff was also the fastest skater in the league. That's gotta be worth a few mil.
I like the idea of Nash as a sweetener in a Souray deal.
Bar Qu:
ReplyDeleteGuy Boucher to TB as well.
Mark my words: Jason Smith will be an assistant under Boucher or Arniel.
He'll likely go to FLA.
Pardon the self-promotion, but I've been waiting for an appropriate comment to throw down my juicy rumour. Thanks, Qu ;)
DF,
ReplyDeletethat is sweet news. Go Gator!
Quite a bit is being made of Nash being at Cornell and that being a possible reason to stay longer than he might at another school. I think Nash's academic situation is being over-stated. From the sounds of it, he has a cushy major, and Cornell is not a super-elite school (though it is obviously a good one). The "ivy" label tends to get it more credit than it is worth, as it is generally agreed that Cornell makes up the bottom end of the ivy schools (ivy really is little more than a sports conference). A school like University of Michigan (Cogliano's alma mater) is, academically, a superior school in most disciplines.
ReplyDeleteIn the context of hockey players who don't get any college education, I do like the idea of a kid going to school and wanting to stay there, but it is worth mentioning that there are current Oilers who left equally prestigious academic programs. It also raises the question of why Nash chose Cornell over a hockey power with equal academics; I'm not sure what his options were, but it still seems like a curious decision to me.
I like the looks of the player as a player, but his decision-making is at the very least curious. Perhaps there is a lady or something involved.
HBomb,
ReplyDelete"Horcoff belongs on a third line (this is one of the biggest garbage statements that an Oiler fan can make, period - I won't even gratify it with a counter-point, it's THAT big a pile of crap)"
My feeling on this is that, depending on the context of a teams make-up, saying he should be on the 3rd line is not a shot at him.
If the team puts together a 3rd line meant to check, play the toughest minutes, and still be able to outscore while giving the softer scoring opportunities to the top 2 lines, then I think that's where Horcoff belongs.
If the team doesn't have the players to use such a line, as is pretty much the situation now, then he should to be in the top 6 somewhere. First or second line depends again on the how they want to use the lines.
If the team puts together a 3rd line meant to check, play the toughest minutes, and still be able to outscore
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a first line's job.
I don't really understand the obsession with 1st/2nd/3rd line classifications. It's a useful shorthand but the obsession with classification, at the exclusion of reality, is too much. A team's top 6 forwards are its top 6 forwards, i.e. the best 6 forwards at helping the team win.
Glad to see the Shawn Horcoff debate still has life. What has it been... like ten years now?
ReplyDeleteI know what Shatner would tell you guys
"I don't really understand the obsession with 1st/2nd/3rd line classifications. It's a useful shorthand but the obsession with classification, at the exclusion of reality, is too much. A team's top 6 forwards are its top 6 forwards, i.e. the best 6 forwards at helping the team win."
ReplyDeleteAt the exclusion of reality? So your claim here is that I am being completely unrealistic in my belief that lines can and have been organized by purpose rather than simply slotting players in order of talent?
There have been any number of teams over the years who have organized their top three lines by scoring 1 - scoring 2 - checking. How is that "to the exclusion of reality"?
The Hawks seemed to do all right against the Sharks and the Canucks playing their 3rd line in the toughest minutes. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but even going back to least year when they played Havlat a lot on the 3rd line - was Havlat not one of their 6 best forwards? One might even argue he was their best forward last year.
If you want to call the lines something other 1-2-3-4 fine. I only used the term "3rd" because that is what a line primarily responsible for checking dangerous opponents has been called since at least as far back as when I was 5 years old.
Either way, categorizing them is the only way to determine how to use them.
@gogliano, you can argue the academic merits between different institutions, but cornell is going to give nash access to the elite and upper crusts of the world. let's say, he did want to pursue a business carreer instead of hockey, the difference between the cornell and michigan contacts will be night and day. his exposure to old money and how it travels, at cornell, will be a huge advantage throughout his life. that's the advantage of the "ivy" league. that paper from cornell opens doors a lot of people don't even know about at other schools.
ReplyDeleteIn other news, looks like Khabby might be off the hook for his glug-glug-vroom-vroom:
ReplyDeleteThese tests — known as the walk and turn, one leg stand and finger to nose — cannot be performed correctly by people with back problems. The results would be no indication of impairment, and therefore meaningless... Since taking the test violated the hockey player's constitutional rights, all evidence that came out of the seizure should not be allowed, including results from a blood alcohol test police said was over the legal limit of 0.08.
Sneaky f---in' Russian.
...for his sake I hope he doesn't get dealt during the first round!
ReplyDeleteNice catch there, Vince. The Oilers site also mentions Gagner and Smid will be making appearances as well as Deslaurier.
Going in I'd think JDD and Smid would have been on the trading table (not necessarily trying to trade, but open to it) but this makes me wonder about that now.
At the exclusion of reality? So your claim here is that I am being completely unrealistic in my belief that lines can and have been organized by purpose rather than simply slotting players in order of talent
ReplyDeleteIf certain players on your teams are the ones who take on the other team's best and can outscore them, then I fail to see how 1.) they aren't your best players and 2.) they aren't your "top line".
The name of the game is to outscore and it's hardest to do it against good players.
The Hawks seemed to do all right against the Sharks and the Canucks playing their 3rd line in the toughest minutes.
The Hawks got destroyed whenever the Bolland line was out against Thornton.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but even going back to least year when they played Havlat a lot on the 3rd line - was Havlat not one of their 6 best forwards
Havlat was Chicago's best forward last year (when healthy). Pretty much any line he was on would have to be considered the "top line" when you view it in the context of results.
In other news, looks like Khabby might be off the hook for his glug-glug-vroom-vroom:
ReplyDeleteI hope Karma gets him and his back fucks up so bad he never walks. The idiot could have killed someone.
it's hard for me to believe that a young man with the smarts to attend Cornell would be so arrogant as to demand a roster spot
ReplyDeleteI've never understood this line of reasoning. Kid figures if he's not guaranteed an NHL spot, he might as well stay in school and get his degree instead of riding buses in AAA. "Cushy" major or not, that's in no way arrogant: that's planning ahead. That's actually smart. I can see being upset about the quality of hockey he's playing or his off-ice discipline or whatever the hell. But simply equating "I'm not leaving school without an NHL spot in the bag" with arrogance seems more than a little off to me.
His degree can no longer be the issue. Surely he can complete it over a few years in Spring and Summer sessions. He can only have 5-6 full courses to go.
Why spread it out over several summers when you can get it done in one year, graduate with your friends, and have the degree NOW instead of at some indeterminate point later? Furthermore, not every University course is offered in spring and summer, and I certainly wouldn't expect a fourth-year course to be, simply due to lack of demand.
Career averages don't hold water to last year, and in sports you're only as good as your last year.
What a steaming load of shit. The way a guy plays:
-- with dead weight on the wings
-- against the other guys' best
-- on a team with two rookie goalies
-- while playing with a bum shoulder for most of the year
is more indicative of his true talent than any of the previous four. What a fucking joke. Sports may be about what you've done for me lately, but they know what mitigating fucking factors are. Injury concerns are legitimate, but judging a career or a player's value by any given year in a vacuum is the mark of an individual who doesn't know what they're doing.
Traktor's comments on Horcoff are about as subtle as an Israeli military flotilla interception. Furthermore, I fully support a late-term abortion of Ethan Moreau's contract.
Brilliant.
Damn. If only Oilers' management had shown the same diligence when assessing Khabi's injury history before signing him. Imagine if in court it comes out the Khabi was aware that he had a chronic back condition for some time. Maybe they'll drum up some medical records from his time in Chicago that may further the embarassment around the contract.
ReplyDeleteEither way, if he gets off in Arizona he should be forced to wear a pink uniform if he's healthy enough to backstop the Oil next season.
In other news, looks like Khabby might be off the hook for his glug-glug-vroom-vroom:
ReplyDeleteI got all excited when I grabbed "Khabby" and "off the hook" out of that sentence. Thought the Oil might have $3.75m extra in cap space and be in the market for a number 1.. oh well. I guess good for him for getting some good lawyers. :)
See, the thing is, players in Horcoff's salary range CAN kick 50-55 yard field goals.
ReplyDeletecould not even get this!
As for his contract!the first five years should have been .5M/year less.
Modano made 3M over his last three
viable horcoff 2.75 for ages 36 37 38 and a final 1.25 for 39
gets you
7.5 6.5 6.5 6.0 4.0 //3.0 2.75 2.5// 1.25
4.44M for 9YR
An extra 6.5M on the contract would have lesened the bitching.
R O,
ReplyDelete"The Hawks got destroyed whenever the Bolland line was out against Thornton."
Oh. So the Hawks didn't win the series then?
I am fully aware of what happened, but it doesn't change the fact that the Bolland line provided cover for the scoring lines to score. Is it your opinion hat things would have been better if they played a different line against Thornton?
The fact that it didn't go well for his line in that series doesn't alter the responsibilities they took on, and it certainly doesn't change the fact that the series went pretty well for the Hawks.
Back to the main topic however, if I understand you correctly, your opinion is that I am being unrealistic because I use different titles when I categorize lines than you want to use when you categorize lines?
These tests — known as the walk and turn, one leg stand and finger to nose — cannot be performed correctly by people with back problems. The results would be no indication of impairment, and therefore meaningless... Since taking the test violated the hockey player's constitutional rights, all evidence that came out of the seizure should not be allowed, including results from a blood alcohol test police said was over the legal limit of 0.08.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet he can, and is suppsoedly going to, tend goal at the highest possible professional level?
Career averages don't hold water to last year, and in sports you're only as good as your last year.
ReplyDeleteThis line of thought is pretty much exactly how bad contracts come to be.
A Slipper sighting. Awesome!
ReplyDeleteIf you want to call the lines something other 1-2-3-4 fine. I only used the term "3rd" because that is what a line primarily responsible for checking dangerous opponents has been called since at least as far back as when I was 5 years old.
The top checkers have been called the third line since at least at least far back as when I was 5 years old.
Back in the day, a team that had a great 3C - Ralph Backstrom, Bob Pulford - always seemed to win the Cup. Can't say that rule of thumb has changed a whole lot over the years.
And whatever else you might say about Horcoff, assuming (falsely in 2009-10) that he was given wingers close to being up for the task, he would be a splendid 3C.
"He was at one time barely able to raise a finger to is own nose, or walk and turn in the same sequence. Nine courageous months later he backstopped the Edmonton Oilers in 43 games, three shy of his career average, and racked up eleven BIG wins in doing so. Ladies and gentleman, on behalf of the NHl and the NHLPA, it's a privelage and honour to introduce to you, the 2010-2-11 Bill Materton trophy recipient... Nicolai Khabilbulin!"
ReplyDeleteThe fact that it didn't go well for his line in that series doesn't alter the responsibilities they took on, and it certainly doesn't change the fact that the series went pretty well for the Hawks.
ReplyDeleteWell, the facts that they keep track of in the long term state this for the series:
Bolland 4 GP, 2-1-3, +4
Thornton 4 GP, 0-1-1, -5
I'd say it went pretty well for Bolland's line and for the Hawks in that series.
I can't believe that people are claiming that Quenneville's match-up didn't work. It might not work a second time if they had to do it again next week, but Q ran with it and ran away with the series.
Why spread it out over several summers when you can get it done in one year, graduate with your friends, and have the degree NOW instead of at some indeterminate point later? Furthermore, not every University course is offered in spring and summer, and I certainly wouldn't expect a fourth-year course to be, simply due to lack of demand.
ReplyDeleteBecause it indicates being more serious about choosing to graduate with friends than hockey. Finishing the degree is a matter of details and is no longer truly an obstacle is the point there. Did you think I was a registar for Cornell? It's do-able.
Sorry, "registrar".
ReplyDelete@ Jfry
ReplyDeleteNo, Cornell really isn't going to offer those opportunities the same way Harvard, Yale, or Dartmouth will. Your potential connections at UMichigan (an elite public) would be just as good if not better than at Cornell. The ivy distinction is a lay/sports distinction with little import in elite circles. There is a huge gulf between the people you'll meet at Yale and the you'll meet at Cornell. The reason I know this is my colleagues from Cornell don't look down on me the same way my colleagues from the elite ivies (HYP) do ;)
Bruce,
ReplyDeleteRe: 3rd line center - We seem to agree perfectly.
Re: Bolland - You bolded the word "fact" which was appropriate, but I'd like to clarify my intent with that statement. I was simply suggesting that even granting his statement as truth wouldn't change the outcome of the series or the effectiveness of using his line that way.
I can't believe that people are claiming that Quenneville's match-up didn't work. It might not work a second time if they had to do it again next week, but Q ran with it and ran away with the series.
ReplyDeleteWith that kind of thinking you should really play the lottery.
"Hey, I won a million bucks, must be my stunning God-given ability to win games of chance!"
@gogliano
ReplyDeleteinteresting. my only experience is spending some time around Yale and Brown while i was at uConn, so perhaps i folded Cornell to eagerly into the batch.
on a seperate note, i stumbled across this beauty pic and know there's fans on here of this type of shot:
http://cdn.nhl.com/kings/images/upload/2009/05/triple_crown_line_large.jpg
TigerUnderGlass: I think you're right when it comes to the terminology, but in my mind, if a guy is the 3rd line center, he's the 3rd best center on the team - this is how I view it.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, when I hear someone argue Shawn Horcoff is suited as a 3rd line center, I'm hearing the argument that some have made (elsewhere, not here) that he's not one of the sixty best centers in the league. An argument that is complete bunk.
When Horcoff is "on", he's in the #21-40 "second tier" of centers. Not an elite first line guy (at any time, I generally tend to think there's about 20 of these types, give or take a few), but certainly a functional one. And if he's the 2nd best all-around center on your team, well, your team is probably pretty damn good.
I was simply suggesting that even granting his statement as truth wouldn't change the outcome of the series or the effectiveness of using his line that way.
ReplyDeleteThen you and I are in complete agreement, TUG. I'm less interested in what could have happened than in what did happen.
//Q ran with it and ran away with the series.//
ReplyDeleteWith that kind of thinking you should really play the lottery.
With that kind of thinking Q should really play for the Stanley Cup.
Hey, wait a minute! Q is playing for the Stanley Cup, in fact he's one game away. What a maroon.
Hbomb: Well... 20-40? Sorting out the centers Points this year for aproximation i'd maybe extend it to 50.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, Horcoff needs to bounce back before he gets anywhere serious, that year made him look like a clown who couldn't play hockey for his life.
With that kind of thinking Q should really play for the Stanley Cup.
ReplyDeleteHey, wait a minute! Q is playing for the Stanley Cup, in fact he's one game away. What a maroon.
When the outcomes don't jive with your logic just blame it on the luck factor.
BOokie: Montreal Canadiens :)
ReplyDelete@fpb
ReplyDeleteThat's when the outcomes don't jive with your logic and your disdain. ;)
Now this puts a smile on all Oiler fan faces:
ReplyDeletehttp://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=1083&id=71940&navid=DL|NHL|home
Hbomb: Well... 20-40? Sorting out the centers Points this year for aproximation i'd maybe extend it to 50.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, Horcoff needs to bounce back before he gets anywhere serious, that year made him look like a clown who couldn't play hockey for his life.
Yep, when he's on his game, he's 21-40. This year he wasn't, but this season is NOT representative of his abilities as an NHL player. He's far better than that.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBruce and Random_Person_01 getting into an argument over process-oriented vs. results-oriented thinking is another one of the arguments that pops up every four days and ceased being interesting at some point in early 1939.
ReplyDeleteAnd then the Germans showed up.
Coincidence? I think not.
Now this puts a smile on all Oiler fan faces:
ReplyDeletehttp://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=1083&id=71940&navid=DL|NHL|home
Thanks - I framed that and hung it on my wall!
HBomb
ReplyDeleteYou do realise that Horcoff has gotten more than 53 points once in his career so to get a team 55-65 points he would have to outperform his history
With that kind of thinking you should really play the lottery.
ReplyDelete"Hey, I won a million bucks, must be my stunning God-given ability to win games of chance!"
I'm with R O.
Why do they even bother playing these games out when a panel could just sit down and come to an agreement on what outcome makes the most sense?
Why do they even bother playing these games out when a panel could just sit down and come to an agreement on what outcome makes the most sense?
ReplyDeleteHaha, nice. But then we might as well just get an expert on panels to decide the outcome of the panel.. :)
Why do they even bother playing these games out when a panel could just sit down and come to an agreement on what outcome makes the most sense?
ReplyDeleteFour words: range of reasonable expectations.
Man, this Kabanov character is really something....
ReplyDeleteComing Down the Pipe article
What's with this guy?
In one of the many parallel universes, having ten players (all forwards, duh) on a team each play 30 minutes (and switching goaltenders every 6 minutes 22 seconds, of course) of the game could produce a victory over Chicago. Therefore, it is the correct course of action and we should never analyze or question it.
ReplyDeleteStephen Strasburg? Anyone?
ReplyDeleteIs it on TV?
I'm loving the Kabanov situation.
ReplyDeleteI hope he actually has scared everyone off so that we can take him with one of our 2nds.
Totally worth the risk in my mind if he's a talent.
The last really talented prospect who slipped in a draft after his high-profile agent quit on him right beforehand that I can remember was Amare Stoudamire in the NBA, and that worked out amazingly well for the Suns.
“It just wasn’t a fit,” Barry said. “We wish him the best, but we advised him to seek other representation.”
ReplyDeleteI still wouldn't go near the guy.
I'd be all over him with Nashville's 2nd if he falls that far.
ReplyDeleteWhy do they even bother playing these games out when a panel could just sit down and come to an agreement on what outcome makes the most sense?
ReplyDeleteHey we all know that in reality there are two teams, thus each has 50% chance of winning.
I only seem to recall KP ever publicly voicing his displeasure for Nash. Since KP is now gone, is anyone else in the org known for slogging Nash?
ReplyDeletefpb: No luck getting the WAS game here, but I'm watching the pitch-by-pitch on MLB mobile. Kid sure looks like he toss.
ReplyDeletePoor Slipper shows up for the first time in ten months and its like he never missed a thing.
ReplyDeleteFrigging Groundhog Day.
I almost wish they would trade Horcoff so people could start taking potshots at someone else. Will be the same old but at least the name will be different.
@BD Do you really want to start arguing over whether gagner is actually a first line centre?
ReplyDeleteOr if Hemsky can really be a PPG player?
Because without Horcoff to keep the trolls occupied, that's where we are headed.
Man I miss Hockey Jesus... He may have been a PP specialist, but at least he provided something other than Horcoff to talk about...
Is Riley Nash the new Schremp as far as questioning if he'll ever "get it?"
"Do you really want to start arguing over whether gagner is actually a first line centre?
ReplyDeleteOr if Hemsky can really be a PPG player?"
I don't think there would be any question whether or not Hemsky is a PPG guy.
With a real center on his line for 82 games he would likely put up 90-100 points.
On Strasburg:
ReplyDelete14 K's trough 7 on his first start.
God dammit, that's more than impressive. Sample size but looks like his record contract will be well worth it.
Quain: Do you suppose the fact that he was getting desirable results gave Quenneville no reason to change the process? Even if it was only a mirage, it was working.
ReplyDeleteI saw the highlights of that young Washington pitcher, looks crazy good. Lets not burn out the young man, ok?
ReplyDeleteRe: Strasburg
ReplyDeleteWord has it the Nats are keeping him on a count for the rest of the season. Pretty sure 100 will be his ceiling 'til 2011. Hopefully we can think of this season as an appetizer.
Because it indicates being more serious about choosing to graduate with friends than hockey. Finishing the degree is a matter of details and is no longer truly an obstacle is the point there. Did you think I was a registar for Cornell? It's do-able.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be so sure. None of the courses I need to take for my final year in order to graduate are available in Spring or Summer. If I had a similar choice, why would I abandon my degree, when I'm probably going to wind up in the exact same spot one year from now anyway (i.e. the AHL), except this time with a degree in hand? Again, the decision to be upset about is the decision to play hockey in a weak conference three years ago, not the decision to finish the degree now. What is so hard about this?
Bruce and Random_Person_01 getting into an argument over process-oriented vs. results-oriented thinking is another one of the arguments that pops up every four days and ceased being interesting at some point in early 1939.
And then the Germans showed up.
Don't mention the war.
The word is Riley Nash has a pretty big ego that is expecting the oilers to come up with big signing money incentives," big, big, ego" . Kamloops boy not really a Consort boy. Let him go.
ReplyDelete