When Marc Pouliot played for the Hamilton Bulldogs his arrows were pointing in a good direction. He was the club MVP in 2005-06 (his first year pro) and things looked good for the Oilers first rounder. However, the development process stalled through injury and ineffective play. We're still waiting on him.It is a story that we've seen down on the farm many times this decade. From career-altering injuries (Doug Lynch) to development by sundial (pick a name, any name) to sharing the minor league team, the Edmonton Oilers aren't getting full value from the farm.
I think the Katz group is making every attempt to close the gap between procurement (generally good for the Oilers) and development (the return has been poor based on the talent headed to the AHL each fall).
For an organization with as many holes as this one, leaking prospects is a bad damn deal. A recent example is defender Cody Wild, getting his feet on the ground in the Bruins organization after his stop-start career as an Oiler farmhand.
A NESN article out today gives us some insight into the Kevin Prendergast-run minor league system with a revolving coaching staff that currently counts Rob Daum as the head man.
- "It was very frustrating. The last two years I've always been in and out of the lineup and it got frustrating at points when I should have been playing. I waited my turn, and still, in the second year around, it didn't work out again. So that's when I said 'ok, I need to move on and join another team and get my chance.'"
Wild got his wish with a move to Providence, the Bruins main minor league club. And he's playing (12 games, 2 assists) and getting some solid minutes. The article has some nice quotes from his head coach with regard to blocked shots and playing with confidence.
I don't really know if the Oilers rotate their healthy scratches but do know that Wild wasn't considered a top flight prospect by the organization. He was behind a few defenders before this season and seemed to be passed by new hires Alex Plante and Johan Motin as the year moved along.
In December I ranked Wild as the #17 prospect in the system and suggested he was a better prospect than the Oilers implied and Derek Zona felt the same way. Math saw Cody Wild good, and I think he's a prospect worth following. The disconnect between the draft and the development may have claimed another worthwhile victim.
OT: seguin vs. hall in 5 minutes...anyone with a feed?
ReplyDeleteJonathan Willis did a good summary on Wild a year or so ago where the math and management's reviews did not seem to jive. With all the injuries I wish he'd been given more of a chance here. I'm glad he's finally getting to show what he can do in a place where he might be appreciated.
ReplyDeleteBut don't you think it ultimately came down to numbers on the blueline more than anything? They've had guys there or coming for a while (Plante, Motin, Hrabel, Chorney, Petry). This is great, but if they are going to develop you need some good vets to help the kids and that seemed to be a big problem two years ago and even last year on the farm.
I agree, procurement of decent d-men (not saying top level, but good) has not been the issue with this org. What you do with it, well they still haven't got that down yet.
The OHL streams their games, but it costs $6.95
ReplyDeleteIf i didn't have a game myself tonight I'd be willing to pay the $20 for the entire windsor/plymouth series.
http://livestream.ontariohockeyleague.com/
"Lain said:
ReplyDeleteI think the Katz group is making every attempt to close the gap between procurement (generally good for the Oilers) and development (the return has been poor based on the talent headed to the AHL each fall)."
Is there anything other than gut feel driving this opinion, LT? You may well be right, I just don't know how you can be so confident with that assertion.
And I really like Pouliot. The play doesn't die with him very often, and he should come cheap. You need guys like that.
Quinn is a great postgame interview, but I wonder about his evaluation sometimes. When he coached the Leafs he would bust out scoring chance numbers all the time, now it's a rarity and vague. I'm sure he's aware of Dennis, that's part of it no doubt, Vigneault can blow scoring chance smoke up the VAN media's bums all day, Quinn has to rein it in or be honest. And let's be frank, even early in the season the latter was a poor option. Still, even when he does I'll check with Dennis' stuff, and the first thing that crosses my mind is "I hope Quinn is doing this right". How sad is that?
These cats need to give us a reason to hope. And not some luck fueled winning streak that leads to bad evaluations and tragic decisions that the HFerasts support unanimously. I mean real reasons for hope.
Vic: I think the Sillinger signing was the first item that made me think there was some kind of structure. More recently, rumors involving that Finnish goalie being in their cross hairs was a real positive (even better if they sign him) and getting the kid Riley as a free agent (if in fact he's an Oiler is also a positive).
ReplyDeleteThey also signed some really good AHLers during the season, but I'm hesitant to give the Oilers credit (this might have been Landon's doing).
Either way, I doubt we see 5 kids on the blue again any time soon.
Apparently, Plymouth is going power vs. power when they have home ice, but Windsor is using checking lines against Seguin to keep Hall away from Seguin.
ReplyDeleteReading between the lines does that say good things about Seguin defensively?
Dude, you got Petry on the brain or something?
ReplyDeleteYou're linking to Wild, and in no way should Petry ever be near #17 on any prospect list.
Windsor's up 3-1 on Plymouth in with 3 minutes left in the second period. Both Seguin and Hall are reading 0-0-0 so far, only difference is Seguin's -2 compared to Hall's +1. Both with a minor penalty.
ReplyDeleteAll very good positive points Lain. We all know that you can see the sun through the clouds better than the rest of us, but those are genuine positives.
ReplyDeleteKeeping Eberle in the AHL to learn how to be a pro ... that's a tremendous positive in my mind. And unexpected.
Why do you think that development is the larger problem than acquisition, though?
Black Gold:
ReplyDeleteI heard the guy from CSB on the radio the other day, I think his name was Seidel, may be wrong.
I was impressed by the demeanour of the guy, seemed more businessman than 'hockey guy'. Granted that says nothing of his prospect evaluating abilities. I was impressed at the extent to which CSB perform psychological evaluations on the top guys, though.
Any road, he compared the games of Seguin and Hall to those of Yzerman and Bure respectively. He was careful to caution that it was unlikely that either of them was going to have those kinds of careers, the comparison was more about the game they played.
So your observation meshes with that assessment, I'm leaning my hope towards Seguin.
The entire development group makes me nervous. I've talked to so many kids that aren't hearing from the team at all, including kids in the AHL. Predergast and Sillinger are...MIA.
ReplyDeleteReading between the lines does that say good things about Seguin defensively?
ReplyDeleteNope. I think it says more about Plymouth's lack of depth. They don't have anyone that can hang with the Hall line except Seguin's line.
Not sure whats with all the love about Cody Wild. I guess t-shirts need to be made, "Wild about Wild". Personally I'm not sure Wild sees many NHL games unless an org gets ravaged by injuries, and that happened to the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteI understand the issues about procurement though, and in the future I get the feeling you can write the same kind of article about Colin McDonald in the future. Its seems the org can't see past the Oilers, almost like whatever happens in Springfield stays in Springfield. There needs to be more emphasis on "role definition" so Springfield can be used more as a training ground as opposed to being just a place to store players.
Derek:
ReplyDeleteBut they've got Michael frigging Jordan! How can they lose with His Royal Airness captaining the team?
Not sure whats with all the love about Cody Wild. I guess t-shirts need to be made, "Wild about Wild". Personally I'm not sure Wild sees many NHL games unless an org gets ravaged by injuries, and that happened to the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteWild consistently outperformed Taylor Chorney, and by a wide margin. It's a curiosity that the organization would ignore (and show disdain for) a kid that was producing numbers on the bottom line.
According to the organization he couldn't skate and didn't have an edge. Yet he outperformed those that could skate and had an edge. I think Wild is the second obvious case (Penner the first) that the Oilers aren't using underlying numbers to identify and build strength.
@DG: He may have been a great hoops player, but I think his work in Birmingham should make it obvious that he was a one-trick pony.
ReplyDeleteNow, say Plymouth had Bo Jackson. Then I'd feel bad for the Spitfires.
Taylor 1 Tyler 0.
ReplyDeleteIt's 4-1 off Hall's powerplay goal.
TSN just had a highlight of the Hall goal.
ReplyDeleteWeak wrister from the point through about 7.36 legs. Don't look too much into it.
Vic: They kept making curious choices for roster and at-bats. I kept thinking the next coach would fix it but until this season (and later in the year) it didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteCoach's comments above with regard to Wild vs. Chorney are an example, but there are others.
I think the backup up of talent, the addition of more Jake Taylor's and Charles Linglet's will benefit the organization a lot. I also don't see why this couldn't have been done a long time ago.
I bet the Oilers sign a few western kids and don't go near the USA at the draft this summer. We're about to see an Earl Ingarfield at the Islanders table kind of draft imo.
Derek
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting that these kids haven't heard much from management. And you have to wonder what their agents were thinking when they even let them talk to you, much less say something like that.
I remember when Ward was development coach, he came on the radio when Gregor had his late night show a few times. Love him or hate him, the guy was switched on. An incredibly honest and harsh assessment of Pouliot I remember, though you could clearly tell that he liked the guy. In fairness to Marc, coaching in the CHL is at a low level, and the best players are just left to wander. They're playing against high school kids who don't have a hope in hell of ever even making pro, for the most part ... most kids selected in the first two rounds are uber-Bures at that level, and there has never been a kid that didn't like being allowed to play that way. It still impresses me that scouts can see bigger games in these little douchebags, but they do it over and over, can't be luck.
But I digress ...
Ward was in touch with the prospects, very obviously. Plus he busted out scoring chance plus-minus in the same interview, re prospect evaluation. I wonder if that was an Oiler thing? He worked with Julien in Hamilton and is back working with him now. Plus when he coached the bulldogs he'd bust out systems terms that were more modern ( 4 + 1 ?), I saw the game, it was box and a man in. Lemaire hockey, like the Oilers play now. The bad guys were playing a passive 2-1-2 after dump-ins ... I haven't seen that before or since, but it worked really well. Maybe that's waht he meant, I dunno. In any case, dude always seemed like the guy in the red shirt on the transporter ... he was just written in the script so as to be dramatically eliminated later,
empty netter to pump the stats.
ReplyDeleteTaylor 2 Seguin 0
I've been seeing these reports about the organization not speaking much with their prospects. Is this a normal thing for NHL franchises? I kind of think it might be as a well run franchise in Vancouver seemed to have all kinds of issues regarding their #1 prospect Cody Hodgson.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of the problems in the AHL stem from the fact that a lot of good AHL players are on the Oilers, in the role of bad NHL players.
ReplyDeleteDid the Oilers not develop Cogliano properly? Is he exactly what he has always appeared to be (everywhere except the scoresheet)? Did they fail with Robert Nilsson and Rob Schremp? Or are they just not very good?
I don't mean to push, and you may well be right, I just struggle to see how a sensible man can be so convinced that development is the issue.
I don't think there is an easy answer when it comes to development. Sometimes you do the right thing for a players development (such as keep them in AHL) and they don't see it as a benefit to them. Sometimes guys have to be let go by their first organization before it "clicks" for them and they realize they need to get with the program.
ReplyDeletemy bad. wasn't an empty netter. He rifled a one-timer from the high slot very much like the ones we've been seeing all year from Steve Stamkos.
ReplyDeletedorito: Not an empty netter by Hall. It was a one time rocket, but a meaningless goal nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteOverall I was a little surprised at how easily Seguin was shut down tonight. Windsor is a far better team, but it's Hall stirring the drink a lot of the time. Seguin just couldn't get anything going.
Ah, you beat me to it. Damn fat fingers.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that Tambellini has identified a lack of pressure from within as adding to our woes this year - there's nobody in the AHL threatening to take the jobs of these players.
ReplyDeleteI'd be even happier if we had eight or nine players who were so good that no AHLer would threaten their job, but apparently that's not in our future any time soon.
Vic: I think Schremp had some injury issues and then he just gave up his final AHL season in Springfield. I have it somewhere in here, but Schremp scored something like 5 points in his final 30 AHL games as an Oiler prospect. He'd given up. Cogliano was presented as smart and coachable but man he runs long periods with the brain off imo. Nilsson is a guy who can't post it consistently, making him a tweener. No sin, but there's no use spending another year on him. Especially giving him the kind of easy minutes most of these skill guys would kill for (at least last time I looked).
ReplyDeleteI think your point in the previous post pretty much nails it. You can't win at any level unless you have good players all over the roster for that level, and the Oilers (plus Falcons) are a few bricks short of a load before any opening faceoff.
The question becomes chicken or the egg, draft or development.
That's interesting that these kids haven't heard much from management. And you have to wonder what their agents were thinking when they even let them talk to you,
ReplyDeleteI had a bunch of interviews lined up with current Oilers, but when the team found out, they shut them all down.
much less say something like that.
This did not come from Wild in any way, shape, or form, but putting two and two together:
From the NESN article:
"It was very frustrating [in the Oilers organization]," Wild admitted. "The last two years, I've always been in and out of the lineup and it got really frustrating at points when I should have been playing. I waited my turn, and still, in the second year around, it just didn't work out again. So that's when I said, 'OK, I need to move on and join another team and get my chance.'"
I'm pretty sure he wanted out and that's why he said what he said about Daum.
I've been seeing these reports about the organization not speaking much with their prospects. Is this a normal thing for NHL franchises? I kind of think it might be as a well run franchise in Vancouver seemed to have all kinds of issues regarding their #1 prospect Cody Hodgson.
ReplyDeleteCorey Fienhage:
What type of interaction do you have with the Sabres organization throughout your season?
We talk occasionally on the phone, they just check up on me and tell me what I need to work on still.
Brayden McNabb:
In conversations with other prospects that said the Sabres give feedback throughout the season on things to work on. Have they given you much feedback on things they would like you to work on?
Well they give us video clips of things that NHL defensemen do and they ask for my feedback. They give me a call every once in awhile but not too often.
Brad Eidsness:
In talking to other prospects I know the Sabres stay in contact with you throughout the season. Is there contact mostly telling you what to improve on or do they look for feedback from you as well?
I think it's a little bit of both. The biggest thing they focus on with goalies is to explain that it is a long process and it's one the positions where you need a lot of maturity. They basically look to make sure your technique is getting better, your getting quicker and stronger throughout the season. They basically rely on me to tell them how I am playing.
With a goalie it is difficult to just look at the box scores and tell how they are playing, The biggest thing they say to me is "keep developing, keep working on your game and get better". We have a lot of resources here at North Dakota that allow me to get better by spending extra time on the ice and working on my game everyday.
The Sabres seem to do okay by their kids.
Nilsson is a guy who can't post it consistently, making him a tweener. No sin, but there's no use spending another year on him.
ReplyDeleteYou've replaced your irrational Smid hatred with irrational Nilsson hatred.
Well, I like to change things up. :-)
ReplyDeleteNilsson hatred is totally rational. It ranks right up there with O'Sullivan hatred and Moreau hatred. Speaking of which is there anyway the Oilers can buyout 3 players in the off-season?
ReplyDeleteI like Nilsson, always have. But sooner or later you've got to move along and imo this is it. I was very supportive of Nilsson>Schremp and others in the past but there's been a job waiting for him since 2005.
ReplyDeleteAnd he's gotten plenty of at-bats. I'm not suggesting replacing him with Linus Omark, mind you.
Nilsson is a guy who can't post it consistently
ReplyDeleteIs it possible to resign him for only part of each season? ...Now if only there were a consistent way to know which part of the season he'd show up for.
Nasty head hit from behind on Halpern in the Canucks/Kings game. This should be a good test of wether the new head hits ruling has any cajones. Gawd, just seeing Vignault's smug face on TV puts me in a bad mood.
LT - I've been unable to post here for a couple days. Tried to do it from Safari (usually use Camino) and no problem. Changes on the backend to go along with the new(ish) layout?
ReplyDeleteLT, where does Omark fit if you bring him over?
ReplyDeleteIcecastles: I'm losing gobs of posts the other way. I may go back to it tomorrow (the old way) but there were 20 posts no one could see last GDT.
ReplyDeletejfry: I think Omark goes to the AHL and learns to play at that level, just like Eberle.
Hall 1
ReplyDeleteSeguin 0
Apparently Moreau and POS were a D-pairing today which suggests they will be healthy scratches tomorrow.
Moreau's comments should be interesting if that's the case.
I'm pretty sure he wanted out and that's why he said what he said about Daum.
ReplyDeleteWhat did he say? Link?
You are saying some pretty damning things about Pendergrast and Suitcase.
If they are shutting you out, and chance to convince some MSM to ask a few questions that never get asked?
What did he say? Link?
ReplyDeleteHere's my interview with Wild.
Relevant bits:
C&B: He also said he'd like to see you play with more of an edge, and in the pictures that we obtained from the Albany game on Halloween, you seemed mighty perturbed. That's not your normal demeanor?
Wild: Nah, that's not my normal demeanor. I play with an edge when I need to play with an edge. I don't go out of my way to run someone - that's not my role. It's not my style of play to go running around and challenging guys to fight. I'll throw a hit when it's there, but I'm not going to be out of position and cause a two on one the other way. You want to be gritty in this game - you can't be a pushover at all and I don't believe that I am by any means. I'm not afraid to go into the corners with anyone, and I'm not afraid to battle in front of the net with anyone. The "edge" comments I don't really understand, but I guess I'll go out there and play with more edge.
C&B: During the losing streak in December, you took a healthy scratch a couple of times. Was the staff looking for something specific from you, or was that a way of shaking up the lineup?
Wild: I wish I knew. I have no idea why I was out of the lineup. I guess maybe he wanted to get another guy in there to see what he could do.
C&B: Is the organization happy with your progress?
Wild: I think they are, I can't tell. Personally, I've improved as a player in the areas that they've asked me to improve. I can honestly say that I've worked my hardest to improve on what they wanted me to do and I still am. I don't have a bad attitude, I'm always trying to get better, I'm always watching video, I'm always trying to take the next step to get better and make it to the next level. I believe that they are happy with my improvement and with what I'm bringing to the table right now.
Did anybody else see Spezza do another one of his infamous laughs on TSN today?
ReplyDeleteOne would imagine Tambellini/Katz after another year of evaluation realises that arseholes like Kevin Pendergrast and that other loudmouth currently filling high level positions are nothing more than fuck ups, and let them both go. Then hire some real hockey minds.
ReplyDeleteI'd personally kick Quinn upstairs to some kind of figurehead role, because i feel his type is good for the positive vibe he brings, but that's just me.
Re: Tambellini: My interest in the Oilers has got to be hanging by a thread, but, am still stupid enough as a fan to listen to what he says. He hasn't done anything abysmally stupid yet, not in the Niinnimaki/Comrie trade(wtf are there idiots in the Oilers org or what!), but rest assured if/when I start to see that all I'm going to be getting for the next decade is more of the same snake oil...
Understanding that I have been negative in the past:D Quinn strikes me as a guy who's pure poison when it comes to attitude and I don't think he belongs anywhere near this org.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if he's always been like this and if he has than surely Lowe knew this before he brought him on board and that's yet another mistake.
78's a guy who's a top niner for the Oilers and should be locked up for two or three years in a peace of mind-for-comfort deal.
We have to quit calling it Hall v Sequin. Hall's team is the defending Memorial Cup Champions, have 2 of the top 3 picks in the 2010 NHL draft and have Ryan Ellis quarterbacking their PP
ReplyDeleteHall's team should win the game handily
We have to quit calling it Hall v Sequin. Hall's team is the defending Memorial Cup Champions, have 2 of the top 3 picks in the 2010 NHL draft and have Ryan Ellis quarterbacking their PP
ReplyDeleteHall's team should win the game handily
I was going to make this point myself. Plymouth should and probably will get smoked by the Spits. This series should have nothing to do with draft positioning, if the people watching have any degree of intelligence. It's like saying Voracek's a better pick than Gagner because the Dinner Jackets are less awful than the Oilers this year.
Seems Phoenix is also keeping in touch with at least one of their prospects.
ReplyDelete