The upcoming NHL Entry Draft has me thinking about 1971, and the twin talents that were Guy Lafleur and Marcel Dionne. Their story may have some application for Oiler fans as we fret over Stu MacGregor making the right decision at the summer draft. Although Lafleur was chosen #1 overall, Dionne was also a tremendous talent and a cornerstone player for a long period of time.I am in NO WAY comparing Lafleur and Dionne to young Hall and Seguin; I am saying that sometimes a draft really does give you two quality choices and a no-lose situation. These two kids are not Mario and Wayne, but they are the best of their draft year and all things being equal should have long careers as impact players for their drafting club.
How could it go wrong? Detroit did it beautifully with Dionne, installing Ned Harkness as coach on May 22, 1970. This was about one full season before the Dionne draft. Harkness was a very poor coach, so they moved him to General Manager! There, he drafted Marcel Dionne (great!) and proceeded to run the team into the ground, making the once proud Red Wing organization a laughing stock. Dionne found a way to get out of a bad situation.
Joe Pelletier has a nice article on the two legends and the spring of 1971.
--
The Oilers aren't going to call up Jordan Eberle this season. I'm left wondering if it might be better for Sportsnet to run the Falcons games for the rest of the year. Ratings might improve.
Meh, i prefer my Modano vs Linden thing =P. Still very good tough, didn't tought about those two.
ReplyDeleteI'm still not very convinced by my elders that Lafleur was that much better than Dionne. But heh, i guess they were both can't miss guys.
Oh oh - maybe we are following the Detroit model, but are doing it from the beginning. Quinn GM next year?
ReplyDelete"...sometimes a draft really does give you two quality choices and a no-lose situation...."
ReplyDeleteAnd sometimes it gives you Gilbert Perrault and Dale Tallon.
So is it too much to hope that Eberle will trend like Robitaille, and Lander like Backstrom?
ReplyDeleteI just hope the Oilers get the best available player in this draft.
It seems to me that Oilfans will worry themselves sick over this draft until it's done. Then they'll complain about it.
ReplyDeleteAssuming we really can't decide who's better between Hall and Seguin, how about we just identify some core forwards and then see which guy fits better in the long-run.
ReplyDelete___-______-Hemsky
MPS-Gagner-Eberle
___-Horcoff-_____
Maybe some of this depends on what we think of MPS. If we think he's a top-flight left winger, then it would certainly be easier fill the 2nd line LW role than the 1st line centre role, especially if Seguin has a defensive conscience to boot, as many scouts attest. I also think centres have a greater impact on the game in general, which makes me lean towards Seguin. Try listing the teams that have won the cup from Tampa Bay in '04 - Pittsburgh in '09 and you'll see a strong correlation between having 2 great centres and winning the cup. Of course, if scouts decide that Hall is in fact the better prospect, then all this is moot and we take him. But if it's a dead heat, I like Seguin.
As far as our core goes, we could throw guys like Nash, Lander, and Van de Velde somewhere in the bottom-6 as well. I also like Brule and Pouliot, but lots of people aren't high on them and it's hard to include them in long-term planning.
LT: Thanks for the history lesson. I never realized Dionne was a Red Wing. Always knew him to be a King.
ReplyDeleteWhat to do about Khabby? Is there any positive in having him for 3 more years at approx. $4 million per? Are their any suckers who would take him off the Oilers hands? I just don't see him fitting in during a re-build.
My dad brought up this point earlier this week. He doesnt follow hockey much anymore but starting asking me questions about the Oilers draft situation. I told him about the big Hall vs Seguin debate. He said it reminded him of Dionne vs Lafleur and then he started talking about Bowman on the Habs.
ReplyDeleteFunny to see this post up after that discussion.
More on the looming Hall vs. Seguin play-off match here:
ReplyDeletewww.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/2010/03/29/king_column/
I hope there will be a good feed available to watch these games.
I was just looking at the standings. Does anyone follow Tampa closely? If so, please explain to me why they are so bad. Their roster appears to be well-stocked with talented players and experience.
ReplyDeletehow about we just identify some core forwards and then see which guy fits better in the long-run.
ReplyDelete___-______-Hemsky
MPS-Gagner-Eberle
___-Horcoff-_____
There is no reason why Horcoff shouldn’t be lining up with Hemsky. All they need is a decent left winger to win PvP matchups. The rest can then streamline behind them.
Is there any positive in having [Khabby] for 3 more years at approx. $4 million per?
No
Are their any suckers who would take him off the Oilers hands?
No
They’ve absolutely screwed up the G situation. Its amazing. The thoroughness. It has a sort of Gestalt quality to it.
They’ve absolutely screwed up the G situation. Its amazing. The thoroughness. It has a sort of Gestalt quality to it
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. This is a situation that is unnecessary and foolish.
That said, it is probably the best situation for this team going forward. What you say? Well, this team is not one that will compete for a playoff spot next year, let alone division title. Management has as much as said they are throwing in the towel for next season too, so why have competent goaltending? With Craig Anderson like tending this year we are picking outside of lottery range in all likelihood, so we should be falling to our knees in thanks to Khabi's bad back and our falling to their knees back-ups. They gave us last place in a neat little bow. And if they give us the same level of sick. lame and incompetent next year, who cares what the team in front of the plays like? We as fans, they as management can all lay the blame at the feet of the bad goalies and happily collect a high pick again (dare we hope for top three? one?). And possibly the GM loses his job for that crap signing (taking it with him in the form of a buyout).
The team gets some seasoning, the farm gets re-stocked with some more good players playing on a good team (possibly leaving NHL-calibre prospects to ply their trade down there) and the 2011-12 season explodes from out of nowhere to a sudden 'rebound' season that no one expected.
As a fan who cares, this will be hard to watch and I do not care to fall to the bottom again. But as a MC or PJOil type of strategic fan, this is a welcome outcome. *spits in disgust*
It's almost laughable that anyone seriously thinks the Oilers are going to be in the playoff mix next year.
ReplyDeleteOr that trading Hemsky for the second overall pick is the solution.
Or that trading away the right to win the lottery for any player not named Malkin/Toews/Crosby is a viable option.
How about if the Oilers pay attention to their farm team, instead of using it like a whore's laundry hamper? Or, instead of letting the leftover losers from 2006 stink up the room, all of them(sans Horcoff) get jettisoned, to help promote a new team culture?
And while I'm on topic for the merits of a farm team, how about hiring a real good coach, to teach these kids something, instead of using it as an extention of the old boys network?
Still, you have to admit, Tambellini talks a great game.
Going to see Scarlett Johanson tonite in a play in NYC. Jealous?
ReplyDeleteWell, how about the 1983 entry draft.
ReplyDelete1) Brian Lawton
2) Sylvain Turgeron
3) Pat Lafontaine
4) Steve Yzerman
5) Tom Barasso
6) John MacLean
7) Russ Courtnall
8) Andrew McBain
9) Cam Neely
10) Normand Lacombe
1983DraftOrder
That depends on the play, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteI'm at the point where I'm still in the Hall camp, but I won't blink an eye if Seguin is the player we end up with. By all accounts from scouts at this point it's very equal and for that we should be thankful if we end up losing the lottery and going second overall.
cadoo: I'm very upset. She told me she'd be at my place by midnight, now it sounds like she'll show up sometime overnight. Damn.
ReplyDelete:-)
Regwald: Lou Nanne got a little weird about that player. Slept with his picture, that kind of thing.
cadoo: Scarlett does theatre? I've always thought of her to be very much a film actor in that her best work IMO tends to be relatively subdued (eg Lost in Translation). If the blood ever returns to your brain from tonight onward, would you mind posting your thoughts on her performance?
ReplyDeleteTyler,
ReplyDeleteIf you're reading this, your website keeps eating my comments. Very frustrating.
lowtide: I think this was where the NHL discovered High School Hockey ... and Nanne wanted to be first ... Barrasso was also out of that program I believe.
ReplyDelete~So, are you saying I have to take those Tyler and Taylor posters down now ?~
LOL
And while I'm on topic for the merits of a farm team, how about hiring a real good coach, to teach these kids something, instead of using it as an extention of the old boys network?
ReplyDeleteHow is Rob Daum a part of the old boy's network?
Link to Rob Daum's coaching record.
I'm confused on this Hunter.
Woodguy:
ReplyDeleteNed Harkness says hello.
Continuing on in the bashing of Damien Cox from last thread, he's now come up with a brillant strategy to ensure that the Coyotes stay in Phoenix and that I get a team back in Winnipeg.
ReplyDeleteWe expand the league.
Discuss in mocking tones.
Sorry Hunter, but the problem on the farm is not Rob Daum. Before the Bulin wall sprung a leak, Springfield was in the thick of the race for a playoff spot (Nov 21st - 10-6-4).
ReplyDeleteThe injury in goal exposed the thin farm system. I think you can argue that Daum - and more directly, DD hid a lot of the issues with the roster, issues that were exposed once DD left for th show.
Good on you Woodguy for showing Daum's track record of teaching and success everywhere but here. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken-you-know-what and that Springfield roster is a patchwork right now.
Hunter,
ReplyDeleteI asked you how Daum was a part of the old boys network, and you give me the name of a NCAA coach who never made it in the NHL.
So, how is Daum a part of the old Oilers network?
Now, if you want to compare Daum to Harkness, that's a different conversation.
For those of you that don't religiously read Down Goes Brown (and those who do and haven't seen today's entry), it's pure gold.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.downgoesbrown.com/2010/03/espns-nhl-player-survey-missing.html
@dg
ReplyDeleteDo you think it's ridiculous that in today's NHL, a team can lose more games than they win and still be considered over .500?
58% - Yes
54% - No
Haha, nice. Down goes brown is fantastic. I like the Leafs' turn around article..
http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2010/03/twelve-factors-behind-leafs-sudden.html
Another Down Goes Brown question:
ReplyDeleteWhat's the single most important thing a hockey player can accomplish during their career?
23% - Stanley Cup championship
18% - Olympic gold medal
13% - Hall of Fame induction
38% - Trade out of Edmonton
It sure ain't easy to do the 4th option, just Mr. Moreau.
ON a different note, Kris Letang just signed a 4 yr, $3.5 mill per deal with pittsburgh. Makes the gren deal more palatable in my opinion, since that is where he would have ended up for a contract.
ReplyDeleteSo, how is Daum a part of the old Oilers network?
ReplyDeleteAn unimportant topic, but I think this is quite simple:
- The Oilers and the UofA are located in Edmonton.
- They schedule games with each other every NHL training camp.
That's enough for me.
Daum is a known commodity to the Oilers and has been for a very long time. I don't think you have to have played for the Oilers or with former Oilers in order to be considered a questionably lazy hire. (Take Pat Laforge for instance.) Given that Daum was a longtime coach in their own god damn backyard for years is kind of a tell, isn't it? How hard could they have really looked? It's not Kelly Buchberger stupid, but it's not far off.
RQ,
ReplyDeleteI see what you are saying, but its a bit of a stretch, Hunter was going for the old boys on the bus thing, and Daum is outside of that.
Yes, he was in their backyard, but his record speaks for itself.
Until the disaster of the 2nd season in Houston his winning percentage as a head coach was ridiculously good.
He may have been in the backyard previously (was hired by the Oilers after getting turfed from Houston), but you'd be hard pressed to find a coach with that kind of record.
If any other team hired him, it would be "good hire", "great winning percentages", since its the Oilers everyone strains to find a fault.
Totally off topic, but this little hockey story makes my heart warm.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy, Leaves fans.
Woodguy - it’s not the fact that it's the Oilers that makes Daum a questionable hire - it’s the fact that the Oiler’s have a mgmt team which has a demonstrated record of utter failure and incompetence that makes it a questionable hire. There is a difference and that’s what RQ is on about IMHO.
ReplyDeleteMontreal signed Riley Nash's brother Brendan today. He played for Cornell as well.
ReplyDeleteYour HF wisdom of the day. A poster, on being told that Lander has third line potential:
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying this is disappointing news, but it is definitely underwhelming to say the least...
I was hoping there some hope that he could have Selke type potential but from what i'm reading, he simply doesn't have the offensive regimen. He was picked in the 2nd round and he was needlessly picked too early. The Oilers need to draft those players in the 4th round+
So there you go kids. Use your second rounders to draft potential Selke winners. Round out your third line in the 4th round and lower.
Good thing we have two second rounders this year, that selke will be ours in no time.
ReplyDeleteRed wings feed is talking about buying out ethan moreau next season They seem fairly reasonable intelligent people.
Springfield Falcons signed L Jesse Gimblett from the U of A Golden Bears today. Big winger, Stauffer mentioned this might happen the other day.
ReplyDeleteI have been as vocal as most when it comes to criticizing Oiler management, but to dismiss Daum as a bad hire simple due to who hired him sounds like guilt by association and a lack of critical thinking.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention it does a huge disservice to Daum, who has an excellent coaching record.
2-0 Wings... Didn't think this one was going to be close.
Woodguy:
ReplyDeleteNed Harkness was not simply another successful NCAA coach - he was the coach and eventual general manager of the Detroit Red Wings.
And if you don't believe me, ask Lowetide :P
Pisani just created a couple turners in about ten seconds.
ReplyDeleteI love when he's on his game.
I hope he can stay healthy next season.
Can they hit 10 tonight? I hope Dave Reece is watching.
ReplyDeleteWell, that was less than ideal. Oh well, we're *this* close to locking up last place. Me and PJO can sleep easy tonight. Probably spooning, in fact.
ReplyDeletewow.
ReplyDeleteThis is painful.
If you haven't started watching yet, save yourself the time and keep doing something else.
*shudder*
I had the chances at 0-11 for the first period.
ReplyDeleteThe Oilers won't be doing anything with Khabibulin this offseason, you can bet on it.
ReplyDeleteThat would be admitting they made a mistake and I've never, ever, seen Oiler management do that.
I couldn't name a player who has had a good game so far for the Oilers. Pisani might be the closest.
ReplyDeleteWhere the heck is everyone tonight?
ReplyDeleteI think we have a few, but blogger is screwing up. 6 comments in the last couple of minutes but not of them are visible.
ReplyDeleteBeauty.
@schitzo
ReplyDeleteYou talking about the Oilers not showing up, or the low comment count? ;)
Toronto is down a goal to Atlanta after 2. I sure as heck hope we can "clinch" 30th on our own rather than backing into it with a Maple Leaves win. If the Leaves come back and win, do they stop the game at The Joe for any kind of ceremony?
ReplyDeleteAh dammit. That was almost a scoring chance before Bobby lost it. And Cogs takes a hooking penalty 180 feet from his own net to complete the play. Who says the kids aren't learning anything from thecaptain?
ReplyDeleteI just got in how were those three goals?
ReplyDeleteThis American feed is fantastic.
ReplyDeleteThe word of the day is clearly "Donnybrook".
Where the heck is everyone tonight?
ReplyDeleteI'm here! We can do the news now! It's all right, everyone! We can do the news!
did strudwick just save that with his stick??!?!?
ReplyDeletewow- i wanna wear a bag over my head and im at home. this is embarrassing. Oops that was JDD who saved that not struds. What a save.
ReplyDeleteStrudwick just had a four minute shift!
ReplyDeleteWhat was Strudwick doing ? Stay out longer. What a loser. He had to or three times that he could have gotten off. Stay out there with Pisani's stick longer. That was an embarrassing shift.
ReplyDeleteJust looked at the NHL shift chart. 3:45 on that shift. The shift prior? Two minutes.
ReplyDeleteThat's how he rolls, I guess.
so.... Oil PP.
ReplyDeleteWho do you put out there?
... Wow. Gilbert i guess.
Stortini!
ReplyDeleteDang early games. That makes two in a row I've basically missed.
ReplyDeleteNice play by Horcoff there.
ReplyDeleteHunter,
ReplyDeleteSo what evidence do you have that Daum is a bad hire, quit moving the question and answer it.
"puck goes to Strudwick, who gets checked by a stick left on the ice by Johan Franzen and in fact it knocks him down..."
ReplyDeleteOilers season in one sentence.
Some nice physical play from 78, Cogliano with a solid pass and Gibby closes the deal. Nice. Real nice.
ReplyDelete78 did a great job there of knocking down Rafalski and allowing 13 a bit of room.
ReplyDelete4-4
ReplyDeleteComedy.
Lovely play by Gilbert to tie the game.
ReplyDeleteWhat's going on here? An Oilers team with enthusiasm???
Vic: I doubt you are checking in here:) but if you are there appears to be a bug with the scoring chance machine.
ReplyDeleteIt's saying that tonight's game number - along with other previous game numbers that I've plugged in just to double-check - are invalid.
If you have any ideas about this please email me at mwhite.dking@nf.sympatico.ca
I can't for the life of me figure out blogger tonight. Either way, comments in the "white" portion seem to be fine, while comments in the "black" section aren't getting through in a normal fashion.
ReplyDeleteCrazy. Sorry everyone. I'm at a loss.
Fitting end.
ReplyDeleteI was hoping for a loss so DD can play more.
Wings get all the calls.
If L.T. was posting tonight he'd mention The Habs and Sam Pollack.
I AM POSTING, Woodguy. And you're right. :-)
ReplyDeleteGawd love Debrusk for caring enough to be a homer but if the Oilers ever manage not to suck then he'll probably join the 'elite' of colour commentators along with guys like Bob Errey, Mickey Redmond and the gold standard for subjectivity, Brian Hayward.
ReplyDeleteis barry davis the temp from the office?
ReplyDeleteI hate blogger.
ReplyDeleteI thought that Stuart's stick was clearly above the crossbar. My PVR might not be as high tech as what the League has but I think they fucked that up.
ReplyDeletePouliot played a nice game. Forceful with the puck, used his body well in the defensive zone, if he could do that kind of thing consistently he would be a keeper going forward. Gilbert's game has steadily improved since Whitney's arrival, he's looking more and more like he can be a 40 point d-man.
Lidstrom has been a beauty for 2 decades now but his footspeed is definitely not what it was even last year. Potulny was able to go wide on him and Potulny isn't exactly Todd Marchant circa 1998. Brule blew by him without about 30 seconds left and Lidstrom had to take him down. It was so blatant that the ref had to call a penalty even though he knows the Little Gary told him to give all the calls to the Wings.
NOW my comments show up. I really hate blogger, like a whole lot. $1000 worth. Seriously.
ReplyDeleteGawd love Debrusk for caring enough to be a homer but if the Oilers ever manage not to suck then he'll probably join the 'elite' of colour commentators along with guys like Bob Errey, Mickey Redmond and the gold standard for subjectivity, Brian Hayward.
ReplyDeleteDebrusk must have called out the wrong Red Wing player's name at least 4 times tonight. Bob Cole is almost 80 year's old and it's kinda cutesy when he does it.
BTW, John Garrett is mortified that you didn't include him in that homer list.
For you goalies:
ReplyDeleteIs there ever a good reason for a 6ft 4" goalie to jump off the ice at a shot that is clearly going over the net?
He's a circus act.
Having said that, not sure how that last one wasn't waved off.
On the bright side, surely PJ Oil can manage a smile now?
ReplyDeleteL.T.,
ReplyDeleteStill another reason to get your own site going. :-)
Now that the Oilers are offcially 30th I will have a snort of Jameson's in a short glass.
"To getting some real help with the 1st or 2nd"
I think either player will be fine NHL players, good news for the Oiler franchise.
Boondock,
ReplyDeleteThat one still has me giggling.
Nobody was even near Struds, he skates slowly towards the stick and glove laying on the ice like he's expecting it to move, and predicably he loses the puck.
After the whistle he comes back and slaps the glove in frustration.
How are you going to clear the zone if you can't get around a stationary stick?
McLean just yelled he'd take Hall 1st overall, anybody else having second thoughts?
ReplyDeleteSK Oiler Fan: All things being equal, I think you take the player who made the late improvement and that would be Seguin. As well, he's a center so there are a lot of little arrows pointed in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteNothing earth shattering and maybe they won't end up making the decision (lottery loss) but imo Seguin was the guy before Doug the Moron spoke.
PB: I just figured I'd list the Amerk guys first:)
ReplyDeleteGarrett is a whore for hire because he used to constantly apologize for Salo when he worked for the Oilers and now the Canucks are the shit.
Last place baby, w0000000000000000. That's what I'm talking about.
ReplyDeleteNow I can turn all my attention to wishing ill upon the Flames.
As you talk about Garrett, he's surprised that Kesler is getting a penalty for (what looked like) a charge and a hit from behind.
ReplyDeleteYou all know Garrett was a shitty goalie, right? I mean awful. He couldn't hold Millen's jockstrap and that guy was no hell either. What a dolt Garrett is, plus they've ruined Hughson who used to call the Expos games (about the highest honor life can bestow on a person).
SK, no reason for him to jump there. Just excited and focused and it's probably a scenario he hasn't worked on much.
ReplyDeleteWanting to take the puck in the chest instead of waving his glove at it is admirable. Doing so when there's traffic involved, however, is pretty suspect.
ReplyDeleteLT:
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen much of Seguin play other than highlights so that makes it an even tougher call. I've seen Hall live and it was impressive.
Agreed on the 2-way centerman bias. In most cases quality wingers can be aquired by other means than 1st overall. It's the quality two way centers that are more difficult to aquire as has been proven over and over by the Oilers.
Does anyone know if any of the Windsor / Plymouth series will be on Sportsnet?
Relief.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=3375#comment-275534
ReplyDelete"Wanting to take the puck in the chest instead of waving his glove at it is admirable. Doing so when there's traffic involved, however, is pretty suspect."
ReplyDeleteJDD with the Hasek-like (lite) unconventional use of his glove hand (by using something else to substitute it)..
@LT
ReplyDeletei own a small design agency and my office has a lot of love for your site. if you'd like some help with the blogger situation, i'm sure we could find some time for the cause.
jfry@simplesimple.ca