Not even the incomparable Gordie Howe made as impressive a debut in big league hockey as Alex Delvecchio did. He cracked the Detroit lineup in his very first professional season and got 15 goals. Seventeen years later and Delvecchio now has 350 goals. His strong point: versatility.
Much of his career has been spent as Gordie Howe's playmaking centre. He's been a standout on the left wing, and he's regarded as an excellent prospect for defense if it ever develops that he's not fast enough for the attack. Though he is only 36, he is gray, in keeping with his quiet personality.
-Jim Proudfoot, Summer 1968
--
I love reading old writing for a lot of reasons. The style 40 years ago was much different than it is today, and there are some things in those words that are downright strange. For instance, what on earth does being gray at 36 have to do with having a quiet personality? Also, is it just me or do people spell it grey more often now for all purposes than they did many years ago?
Finally, it's very rare to speculate about moving a forward to defense in the heart of a Hall of Fame Career. Fedorov is the only recent example I can think of, and had someone like Mark Messier really wanted to hold on for too long that might have been an option.
(pause)
Delvecchio played forever, in fact he was an NHL regular for a full 5 seasons after he took his 1968 summer holiday. He ended with 456 goals, 3 Stanley's and 3 Lady Byng's.
Delvecchio was not as respected during his career as was warranted, mostly because he played in the shadow of the great Gordie Howe. Norm Ullman was more skilled and he got lots of headlines, and of course the Red Wings developed the two great goalies of Delvecchio's generation (Sawchuk and Hall) not named Plante so he was way down the list before turning grey. In this way (and he won't score 456 goals) Shawn Horcoff would be a modern day comp: a quality player and a leader, and a player the fans perhaps overlook.
Shawn Horcoff is unlikely to play today. It'll be interesting to see if his value to the team is reflected in the score.
Shawn Horcoff is unlikely to play today. It'll be interesting to see if his value to the team is reflected in the score.
ReplyDeleteOr the goalie will steal one, Hemsky will throw the team on his back, and the fans will be saying "who needs Horcoff anyways".
Or more likely, this will be an epic blowout that no single player would prevent.
The value of Shawn Horcoff is that were he in the lineup the Oilers would probably only lose 4-2, minus Horcoff to go power versus power 6-2 doesn't seem like an unreasonable outcome for the game. Our lines are enough of a mess when the MacT blender still has its better players to work with.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else find it odd that Sportsnet somehow is able to carry the game today?
ReplyDeleteHorcoff's void down the middle won't be that bad if Gagner and Cole can make stuff happen. They've been looking good the last few games and could be our Line 1B should Brodz, Pouly, and Cogs fail at being Hemsky's broomstick on line 1A
ReplyDeleteI was listening to Mac-T's pre-game comments (on the Oilers website) a couple of things struck me
ReplyDelete1- about Pou being vanilla.
His point being that while Pou has improved and progressed he doesn't really stand out in any one area. He doesn't have a role to fill every night.
This seems like backwards player management to me. The best drafting teams in the NFL approach each prospect with the question "What can he do well at the pro level?" Then it's up to the coaching staff to set their players up for success, by using them for their strengths and working on/ covering for their weaknesses.
It is bad coaching IMO to be asking the player to find his role, instead of defining it for him and using him correctly.
2- Peckham up, Potulny down and having to play Big Mac against Detroit because they don't have the roster spot available.
The management seems determined to handcuff themselves with the roster spots. First 3 goalies, now JFJ on conditioning. Why in the name of Stan Weir did they sign this guy to a one way deal. Was there some other team pounding down the door for an often injured, pointless in 40+ NHL games, bust of a prospect?
This is a relatively minor issue, however, there seems to be an endless supply of small mistakes. Death by a thousand paper cuts.
Matt N:
ReplyDeleteThe case was whether they wanted Smac to play forward or D. With Gilbert expected to be out, I'm glad they made that judgement call.
"Shawn Horcoff is unlikely to play today. It'll be interesting to see if his value to the team is reflected in the score."
ReplyDeleteOne of Edmonton's best streaks in the last dozen years is when Horcoff was on the IR. This is an inarguable fact. Win or Lose, it's not going to be because Horcoff's absence.
Why in the name of Stan Weir did they sign this guy to a one way deal.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't, not this year at least. The fact that he needs waivers comes from his age and number of seasons of hockey played in the AHL, not his contract.
One of Edmonton's best streaks in the last dozen years is when Horcoff was on the IR. This is an inarguable fact. Win or Lose, it's not going to be because Horcoff's absence.
ReplyDeleteHard to look past the cherry-picking going on here. The "inarguable fact" is that this team with Horcoff in the lineup is better than the team without him in the lineup. Arguing otherwise would be like saying the reason the Oilers lost the final in 2006 is that Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky played as a unit, when they had not in the first three rounds - it's flawed logic at its finest. A lot of things went right during that stretch run last year for the Oilers to run up 14 wins in the final 20 games.
Last year, at least they had Reasoner and Stoll to spread out the tough minutes (the best scenario would have been Horcoff with Hemsky going power vs. power, but having Stoll and Reasoner to fall back on is a lot better than what they've got this year as a plan B).
This year, not another center over, what, 25 years of age? Past Hemsky, it's about the worst loss they could suffer in terms of an injury.
Barring a Roloson miracle, they have NO chance in Detroit this afternoon. Now that I've said that, watch them pull a win out of their asses tis afternoon. It's how this team rolls.
Arguing otherwise would be like saying the reason the Oilers lost the final in 2006 is that Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky played as a unit, when they had not in the first three rounds
ReplyDeleteActually, it would be more like arguing that whether they played as a unit was irrelevant, since Traktor says "Win or Lose, it's not going to be because Horcoff's absence."
Actually, it would be more like arguing that whether they played as a unit was irrelevant, since Traktor says "Win or Lose, it's not going to be because Horcoff's absence."
ReplyDeleteHe's right, though. It'll actually be because Dustin Penner is fat and lazy.
Let's just hope that Penner and Jacques don't try to eat each other to establish fat guy dominance over the team.
ReplyDeleteAnd macTavish has lost the room.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why Penner is fat and lazy.
Or is it the other way around.
Can't keep track.
Anyhow Horcoff isn't a first line centre so the point is moot.
I half assume that you're being facetious LT, but I'll field this one anyway: Using gray in this case is a pun on the writer's part. 'Gray', in terms of a person's personality, bears a meaning similar to 'quiet'; a 'gray man' is one that purposefully avoids notice, usually remaining in another's shadow. It is a meaning for 'gray' that is quite lost these days. Forgive me if y'all knew that already.
ReplyDeleteOh, and we're screwed today. The Oilers, not me. My day is going to be awesome.
Could we please move past the pro-Horcoff, anti-Horcoff entrenched warfare?
ReplyDeleteThis team went on one of their best (and most improbable) winning streaks when Horcoff and Souray were both injured. So yes, the team can win games without either of them.
On the other hand, arguing that Souray and Horcoff have no impact on how many games are won/lost would is a flawed argument.
On to more important things: how does Kyle Brodziak so tonight? I'm going to go out on a limb and say he looks really good tonight, and that Pouliot is used in Brodziak's last role (roving faceoff man saddled with inferior linemates).
Maybe I'm just a sucker for punishment, but given the talent you KNOW is hiding somewhere in Pouliot's lazy body, I would have ran him at 1C.
ReplyDeleteYou win games up the middle. The Oilers are lukewarm porridge up the middle w/o Horcoff. The kind of porridge you get from a package that requires pouring boiled water into it.
ReplyDeletePorridge that tastes like cardboard, that's the Oilers without Horcoff.
An old brown shoe you drive past on the road. The sole has removed itself from the rest of the shoe, and all parts of the shoe are wet.
That's the Edmonton Oilers without Shawn Horcoff.
"The "inarguable fact" is that this team with Horcoff in the lineup is better than the team without him in the lineup."
ReplyDeleteWhat evidence are you using to base this fact upon? The statistical evidence clearly shows this is a better team without Horcoff. If results is the metric used to determine a players value, they certainly don't back up your claim that this is a better team with Horcoff. I'm not saying this is a better team without Horcoff but that's what the statistics tell us.
Why do I even bring this up?
Well Lowetide's comments of "It'll be interesting to see if his value to the team is reflected in the score" insinuate that if Edmonton lose without Horcoff in the lineup it will highlight his importance to the team. You bring up cherry picking - well, discounting 30 games of success without Horcoff and then making conclusions based upon 1 game without success seems like cherry picking in it's truest form.
"Arguing otherwise would be like saying the reason the Oilers lost the final in 2006 is that Smyth-Horcoff-Hemsky played as a unit, when they had not in the first three rounds - it's flawed logic at its finest."
Huh..
So Edmonton was successful with a certain set of lines, and then they changed the lines and didn't have success, and somehow arguing this had a negative effect on the team is flawed logic? I guess...
"Last year, at least they had Reasoner and Stoll to spread out the tough minutes (the best scenario would have been Horcoff with Hemsky going power vs. power, but having Stoll and Reasoner to fall back on is a lot better than what they've got this year as a plan B)."
This I can agree with - although I'm not sure if we ever saw plan B; MacTavish has refused to give Brodziak the 3C position.
Alex Delvecchio's nickname was "Fats"
ReplyDeleteI'm looking for Penner to shine today
On to more important things: how does Kyle Brodziak so tonight? I'm going to go out on a limb and say he looks really good tonight, and that Pouliot is used in Brodziak's last role (roving faceoff man saddled with inferior linemates).
ReplyDeleteI'd be surprised if Brodziak looks great. An away game, playing on Ales Hemsky's line? When no other line is showing up? Against Detroit? I'm going to guess Babcock is smart enough to know that you take your chances at Sam Gagner beating you.
I think Brodziak has chops, but this is a whole level above being thrown into the fire.
I doubt Pouliot plays roving face-off man as well; he gets zero tries when he's playing on a line with the worst face-off man on the team. I don't see why he'd get extra now.
Barring a miracle on our side and an anti-miracle on their side, I see a loss. And my Ty Conklin running fantasy team thanks the Oilers for it.
LT, you just used Alex Delvecchio in a comparison with Shawn Horcoff...you compared that guy at center to a near-500 goal scorer on one of the best groups of hockey players ever.
ReplyDeleteI'm usually right there with ya but I don't follow on this one.
Brodziak moving up though? No way, not that far. This should create an entire re-jigging of the lines (but it won't).
My view is that you always need at least one line that could win you the game if they played great. No matter what the other lines look like. That won't happen tonight.
Traktor: The Canucks have lost what, nine games in a row? Are they better with or without Luongo?
ReplyDeleteLMHF#1: MacTavish said in his pregame comments that Brodziak would start on the first line.
ReplyDeleteSo Edmonton was successful with a certain set of lines, and then they changed the lines and didn't have success, and somehow arguing this had a negative effect on the team is flawed logic? I guess...
ReplyDeleteIt's cherry-picking because it ignores the fact that our starting goalie shit the bed in the latter half of Game 1, then got injured by his own defence, sending the team into disarray until Game 3, when it was arguably too late. Or the fact that we won three of four and forced a winnable Game 7 after the aforementioned events, with a top line of Horcoff-Smyth-Hemsky.
You know, among other things.
There are two many uncontrolled variables to say, based on a small sample size, whether this team is better with or without Horcoff.
ReplyDeleteWhat I would propose is that we look at what individual statistic - adjusted for time on ice - correlate most strongly with team success, over an enormous sample size. Then we compare Horcoff's performance in those individual statistics to those of whoever replaces him. *Then* we conclude that the team is better with Horcoff in the lineup.
A thought:
ReplyDeleteIf I'm coaching the Oilers, I try Dustin Penner as my 2C tonight. He played lots of centre in college and in the minors, if memory serves me right.
13-51-83
26-27-xx
12-89-xx
18-78-46
It's a more balanced lineup, at least, and keeps Babcock from sending out his best players against an utterly overmatched Gagner line and scoring nineteen goals.
Anyone else think it's a bit unfair that A-Rod is the only of the 104 players who tested positive, in "anonymous testing" , to have his name released?
ReplyDeleteIn support of Traktor's recent postings, that is probably the most swashbuckling photo of Pocklington I can recall seeing - en garde!
ReplyDeleteOn to more important things: how does Kyle Brodziak so tonight? I'm going to go out on a limb and say he looks really good tonight, and that Pouliot is used in Brodziak's last role (roving faceoff man saddled with inferior linemates).
ReplyDeleteThis would indeed be a perfect time to give Poo some center time. I'm sure it won't happen though. Not yet, anyways.
Why do I even bring this up?
You like the abuse?
JW - Yeah I know, I'm saying it's wrong.
ReplyDeleteLMHF#1: I'll put it this way - I think Brodziak should play the role that he should have been playing all year now - third line centre.
ReplyDeleteIt would seem to be the balanced answer to Craig MacTavish's (1st line or 4th line!) extremes.
/Anyone else think it's a bit unfair that A-Rod is the only of the 104 players who tested positive, in "anonymous testing" , to have his name released?/
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but A-rod prob earns about double what the other 103 do combined, so is it unfair?
And are we trying to avoid talking about the Apocalypse in Detroit? Because I'm all for that. Unless we win, and Babcock has to call it a "Debacle" :-)
Guys, it's 11:45am in Edmonton. Too early for me to start drinking?
ReplyDeleteRemember, guys, the Oilers play their best hockey in games they have no business winning.
ReplyDeleteIf we just replaced the Oilers with the Stockton Thunder, we'd go 82-0.
HBomb: there'll be plenty of time for drinking once the puck drops.
ReplyDeleteThis I can agree with - although I'm not sure if we ever saw plan B; MacTavish has refused to give Brodziak the 3C position.
ReplyDeleteHere's where we agree, and here's something I don't get - from my eye, Cogliano can't win a faceoff to save his life, so if we've got Horcoff-Gagner-Brodziak-Pouliot when all are healthy, why is he still playing center? Is he actually that much better in all the other facets of the game that putting up with a 38% faceoff percentage is tolerable?
Brodziak or Pouliot should have gotten a shot at that 3C role, and I think one could argue neither has gotten what you could call an "extended chance". Why? I think it really comes down to MacT being bitter about not having Reasoner (or a reasonable facsimile) at his disposal and he's spitting in Lowe's face.
I've said I'd like to see MacT removed at the end of the season - I think he quits before they can even debate dismissing him.
Unless Stan Weir makes a showing today I see a 4-0 loss in Detroit.
ReplyDeleteAm not believing all the anti-Horcoff stuff in the thread today. The guy has to take every important face off, has to do the PK and PP and a lot of people just dump on him like he's a slug.
If it were me, I'd keep Brodziak as the #3C today, I'd slide Pou into #1C and I'd start JDD because the game tomorrow is even more critical.
Could we please move past the pro-Horcoff, anti-Horcoff entrenched warfare?
ReplyDeleteHear, hear. One of the reasons I avoid HF boards like the plague is the never-ending shit that (I'm told) goes on about Horcoff. Enough, already. Unless you got something new to bring to the table, like, say, current stats, endlessly debating about what happened in 2006 just isn't advancing the conversation.
Lord Bob: even though it was officially last Sunday, I'm celebrating my birthday tonight.
ReplyDeleteGetting liquor in my system early might lead to trouble later. Or it might just get me well conditioned to handle an onslaught of shooters later tonight.
I think the controlled consumption of a few beverages during the game probably pays off in the long run.
Guys, it's 11:45am in Edmonton. Too early for me to start drinking?
ReplyDelete11:45 AM, February 07, 2009
I've said I'd like to see MacT removed at the end of the season - I think he quits before they can even debate dismissing him.
11:51 AM, February 07, 2009
Christ that works fast - you need to invest in some Mix!
Bruce: nice work sliding that plug in there. And good for doing it - like I said, that particular piece of work should be grade-school required reading in this town.
ReplyDeleteRemember folks, this is the Oilers here. If they were all healthy and playing some bottom feeder team, I would totally expect them to put in a half assed effort and lose, but playing Detroit with three of their top players hurt, if I know this team I say the Oilers totally win this one.
ReplyDeleteAlice: I'm holding out until faceoff. At least.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I think MacT is pissed off about certain things that have or have not happened this year. I do not like the decision making process at times this year, but having one "veteran" center on a team expected to compete, at the start of the season, for the division title?
That's irresponsible on the part of Tambellini, Lowe, or whoever has their hands on the wheel of this thing.
PS: "Mix" is for the weak.
ReplyDeleteIf it were me, I'd keep Brodziak as the #3C today, I'd slide Pou into #1C and I'd start JDD because the game tomorrow is even more critical.
ReplyDeleteMe too. Is Roli really getting the start today? That's just nuts. Then again, I did predict it.
Thing about Poo and faceoffs is that even when he played numerous games on Cogs' flank, he wasn't getting any face-off time. Can't he at least take the draw and then switch positions? It's hardly unprecedented, lots of wingers take draws.
I was at the Chicago game when they played together and, no word of a lie, Pouliot went 2-0 in the circle and Cogs went 0-8. And yet there was Cogs, lining up for defensive zone draws, on his weak side no less. I was ripping my fucking hair out.
I will stake my entire reputation on the Oiler's winning tonight. My vast intellegence and knowledge of the game tells me that this is the type of game the team always wins.
ReplyDeleteIf they lose I will disappear from this board forever (with a convenient appearance of someone named booker occurring at the same point in time)
The MacT
ReplyDelete--------
4 fingers Whisky Mac (itself a blend of scotch and green ginger wine)
1 cup Earl Grey tea, hot
Blend well
"Traktor: The Canucks have lost what, nine games in a row? Are they better with or without Luongo?"
ReplyDeleteMy point is if we lose to the Wings today it's not going to tell us anything that we didn't already know about Horc. I would never suggest that I personally believe we're a better team w/o Horcoff because we had success without out him, so by the same token we shouldn't make any conclusions about him based on one game w/o him when we were going to get dominated regardless.
I'm just looking for a fair fight.
On 78: I've been saying for awhile now that he looks like a guy who's stuck in between. Last year when he was recalled for good I watched him like a hawk and the guy was in the right positions offensively basically all the time. He was covering his point and pinching down to help out when necessary and he had a good stick when it came to breaking up passes. But the flipside was I didn't see him creating a lot of chances and I wondered where his offense would come from.
ReplyDeleteNow, I can see where his offense would come from but I don't think he's as good defensively as he was; and that's not just because I think he's being dragged down by the high event 18 either.
Maybe he's gone back to thinking that if he was given a chance he could produce a little bit more offense.
Traktor: how much would you say 10's being overpaid on his contract? Or at least when it kicks in.
ReplyDeleteAnd keep in mind it was signed before there was any talk of a recession that would impact everything including the rev generated for pro sports teams.
ReplyDeleteI'm just looking for a fair fight.
The Oilers vs. Detoit without Horcoff is not what you want to be watching then. I have a bad feeling this could get ugly, but I also think Babcock is the kind of guy that will get the troops to step off the gas-pedal if it's getting out of hand.
Logic says 6-1 Wings, something like that. But, like I said earlier, the Oilers do dumb things. Look for Roloson to have a huge day and the Oilers to somehow pull out a 3-2 OT win.
After all the angst in the Peckham thread that I stirred up, I just got a phone call from the guy planning the party tonight and it looks like the girl I'm interested in might not be there at all!
ReplyDeleteSo, I wasted all your time, then! Sorry about that!
Delvecchio got plenty of respect in his day.
ReplyDeleteTonight's game isn't going to be too hard to see, what with a guaranteed loss, plus the one formally decent part of the Oilers the top 4 puck moving wonder officially headed to the happy hunting ground.
I want to see Peckham. Now that Schremp has, after getting a .75 ppg btw, been officially forbidden to ever play for the Oilers. Peckham instantly leaps to the top of my list. He hits, he fights, think Wendel Clark playing his natural position.
With a third of the season, Peckham will be rocketing up the defence depth chart by season's end, which will give Smid food for thought - hopefully the fans won't be trading him too fast either.
Earl Grey tea, hot
ReplyDeleteNo, no, Bruce, it's "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot."
I have so much work to do, I can't possibly watch this game today. Which means, of course, that I'll have a stream on in the background while I pretend to accomplish things instead.
PS: "Mix" is for the weak.
ReplyDeleteI hear ya, but you've got to get from 1pm to 12am first, and Then you can start drinking. The absolute best all-day pacer is vodka-tonic, Tonic. Vodka-tonic, then tonic. They taste exactly the same, look exactly the same and you can run on that for hours at the same buzz level. Sounds boring, but if you have to put in a long day and can keep up the regimen, it's a beaut. After midnite - well break out the booze for chrissakes! This'll get you there.
Alice: you're talking to an old pro here. Any drink I have from now on in will be immediately followed by an equivalent amount of pure water.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking the vodka route for the afternoon might be smart. Vodka and 7, stick to the clear stuff until sundown.
Glad to see Horcoff out tonight - let's see the team without him hogging up the good playing time.
ReplyDeletePouliot, geez... If I think about this long enough I might start seeing Pouliot on the second line, scoring. They say once the meds kick in, that will go away.
Brodziak - Just wondering, exactly what happened to this dude? I had him penned in to anchor the third line at the start of training camp. With so many centers(Cogliano, Gagner, Brodziak, Pouliot), who is actually playing their natural prospect position?
//Thing about Poo and faceoffs is that even when he played numerous games on Cogs' flank, he wasn't getting any face-off time. Can't he at least take the draw and then switch positions? It's hardly unprecedented, lots of wingers take draws.//
ReplyDeleteBruce, one of the reasons I think MacT feels Pou's game is vanilla is that he has him playing out of position. The kid's a center, not a RW and yet here is another example of a square peg being squeezed into a round hole.
Not to turn this into an anti MacT thread...
It's hard to talk about the Oilers without having an anti-MacT thread, for reasons that should be obvious.
ReplyDeleteApparently, Manny Legace has cleared waivers.
ReplyDeleteHow much would you prefer to have Legace as a backup than Deslauriers, Oiler fans? A million times? Two million times?
The whole "MacT doesn't see 78 as a pivot" thing is odd because it seems like his mind has been made up for a long time about that. And it would be interesting to know just how many starts the guy's had at pivot in the first place.
ReplyDeleteIn '07 and '08 I remember him playing a lot of time with 34-19 with 19 being the pivot. Then late late season he played some with 20-51 and 51 was the pivot.
Is that whole idea a self-fufiling prophecy?
Traktor: I follow, and I agree that you can't really look at one loss and say "if they had X, they would have won..."
ReplyDeleteBut then, I think LT was using a bit of creative license more than anything else there.
Avery was officially placed on waivers today as well. Looks like the Rags will favour the Stars by giving Avery a place to play for his conditioning stint and then they'll magically claim him once he goes on re-entry waivers.
ReplyDeleteFuck, I'd love to have that guy on the Oil.
//How much would you prefer to have Legace as a backup than Deslauriers, Oiler fans? A million times? Two million times?//
ReplyDeleteLord Bob: And risk JDD on waivers?
oilerdago: Abso. freaking. lutely.
ReplyDeleteFuck, I'd love to have that guy on the Oil.
ReplyDeleteSee, here's my problem with that. Everywhere he's gone that hasn't been New York, he's worn out his welcome with his douchebaggery sooner or later. Even if he can be a good hockey player, is he worth the off-ice troubles? In New York, for whatever reason, maybe he's sufficiently stimulated off the ice that he doesn't have to make a complete ass out of himself, and save all his antics for pissing off opponents in an effective manner.
I doubt things would turn out any better for him in Edmonton than they did in Dallas or LA.
Oilerdago: LOL.
ReplyDeleteAs for Legace, he's been brutal this season and is a pending UFA, so I'll confess that I'm a fan of just looking at him in the off-season when he'll be much cheaper.
Of course, he'll probably sign a league minimum contract in Detroit, take over the starting job from Conklin, and win a cup.
Lord Bob: And risk JDD on waivers?
ReplyDeleteFuck no. Carry all three.
How much would you prefer to have Legace as a backup than Deslauriers, Oiler fans? A million times? Two million times?
ReplyDeleteMany times, if not for the 2.15 million cap hit. I'd say take a shot at him if he ends up on re-entry waivers.
Doogie2K:
ReplyDeleteEven with all of the character players in the Oilers' dressing room? That stuff just doesn't happen on a Moreau-captained team ;)
Lord Bob:
ReplyDeleteSorry, my comment was missing the "sarcasm" quotes.
This is one of those weekends that just aggravates me. To say you're playing to make the playoffs now and then you have situations like this weekend when you need to get 2 points (and you'll probably get 0) again speaks to the poor roster management of this team.
Apparently Gilbert's in tonight.
ReplyDelete"Traktor: how much would you say 10's being overpaid on his contract? Or at least when it kicks in."
ReplyDeleteLess than a million. My case has never been against the money. My problem is if Horcoff is your #1C then you have to make up that difference somewhere else in your lineup. In a 30 team league, unless you have a top 15 player at said position, then it makes zero sense to lock up that player.
Schitzo:
ReplyDeleteCan Legace win a face off?
BTW, the official site says 77 is likely to play today. Normally I'd preach caution but I've had some back troubles myself and if you've had them for awhile and you know how to manage them then I feel OK with 77 seemingly coming back so soon.
ReplyDeleteToday presents a unique situation because the Oilers are behind the eight-ball with injuries to 10-71 so you really don't expect to draw any points out of that game because of that. That means anything gained from today will feel twice as good. Granted, it's not like we can be blase about giving up games either.
Finally, what's all this I'm hearing about J-Bou wanting to come back and play in Edmonton? Millard and Kypreos are pushing it hard on their daily show on Sportsnet and Strachan's starting to chirp about it nightly on Hardcore Hockey Talk as well. We've heard for a long time that the guy abhors the spotlight to the point of avoiding Edm like most other players;) but Strachan seems to be plugged in and he insists the rumors are true.
Both 71 and 44 have NMC's so I guess that means that 77 would be the one moved if we elected to sign J-Bou.
Even with all of the character players in the Oilers' dressing room? That stuff just doesn't happen on a Moreau-captained team ;)
ReplyDeleteThis team bleeds character, which would explain why so many guys I like are hurt at the moment.
All kidding aside, though, it wasn't supposed to happen in a dressing room with Brendan Morrow and Mike Modano, with Brett Hull upstairs, and yet it did. It's just not worth the risk; the Rangers can control him, the Rangers can have him.
On 78: I've been saying for awhile now that he looks like a guy who's stuck in between.
ReplyDeleteI've been saying that about Pouliot since the math guys were comparing him favourably to Parise and Getzlaf.
His strengths are very average so its not exactly surprising that he is having trouble finding traction in the bigs.
Dennis: I think 71s NMC was voided when he was traded.
ReplyDeleteDennis: Take it for what it's worth, but -
ReplyDelete1) J-Bo's apparently either married to or is marrying an Edmonton girl.
2) It's not so much he doesn't want to play here, it's more about his family not being the biggest fan of the idea.
Whatever it is, it would be pretty damn sweet to add that particular player to the lineup. Hemsky/Bouwmeester gives you two legit "stars".
I'd much rather they moved Souray than Gilbert to get the guy, but could you imagine if they did Penner-Grebeshkov for him and actually iced a top four of Visnovsky-Bouwmeester-Souray-Gilbert?
Sick. But expensive. Probably 6 million per (minimum) for J-Bo, so that's 21.1 million sunk into four defensemen. But if you had those four, you'd pretty much be icing two replacement level guys as the 5/6 pairing and it wouldn't really matter.
Trak: Overpaying has long been a Lowe trademark - 83's gonna be a super bargain but who else has been as an Oiler - and, yeah, 10's probably getting a little bit too much money but he's doing the job at EV while playing PVP.
ReplyDeleteNow, I understand your point but as a counterpoint I'll say the problem with the '09 roster lies in the fact they don't have a good enough pivot to exploit the soft min while 10 handles the tough. So, I guess you're going towards the fact that the roster makeup or salary payout is flawed and I can get behind that just a little.
I think the Oilers believed 89 could eat the soft while Horc did better than sawing off with the tough and the problem has been more 89's lack of production than 10's performance. And I don't mind a little bit of an overpay to 10 considering he brings PVP cred, he's a good draw guy and PK guy as well. I could take him or leave him on the PP but I think he's done a good enough job in the past - two years ( '06 and '08 ) where he was close to PPG - to warrant a slight overpay.
The problem is that because we're overpaying other guys who aren't clawing in the same trenches - cats like 18 and 24 for instance and 34 to some extent as well - we didn't have enough money left to employ a BONAFIDE soft min eater and instead we gambled on young 89.
Sound about right?
//How much would you prefer to have Legace as a backup than Deslauriers, Oiler fans? A million times? Two million times?//
ReplyDeleteThere is zero probability that Manny Legace is a starting NHL goaltender. There is zero probability that Andrew Raycroft is a starting NHL goaltender
There is 10% chance that JDD is.
Colorado would claim JDD on waivers and take that chance, because they are spending no money on goaltenders.
Late line up notes: Smac is sitting. Struds is in as is Peckham.
ReplyDelete83's gonna be a super bargain but who else has been as an Oiler
ReplyDeleteAmong veterans, Pronger and Garon come to mind but not much else does.
HB: go back to '06 and that's basically what we were doing with all of Greene-Tarnstrom-Bergeron floating through the bottom two and it worked out well then.
ReplyDeleteStrach is plugged in whether guys like or not and he has no trouble calling edm a shithole for guys who have their choice of workplace. So, if he's saying a guy wants to play there, it carries a lot of weight with me.
BTW, not sure if 71's NMC was voided by the deal but it doesn't make much sense for a guy to lose that clause Because he was moved, does it? I think Lombardi dealt him Because he was days away from the NMC, right?
27-37 might wind up working out well for the Cats because those are two NHL players and the only problem is 27's pact is about, what, a mill overpay and that means even more to a team that's worried about a budget rather than a cap. What's JB making this year? I imagine the salaries of those three players are even enough that we could take him on wihtout shuffling anything else.
But we'd have to have a handshake deal that he comes back before July 1st.
D2K: Avery is a plus player playing against real players.
godot: .920, .911. .925, .920, .915, .907, .911, .885
ReplyDeleteThose are Manny Legace's save percentages in full NHL seasons. You tell me which of those numbers doesn't belong. If Legace isn't a legit NHL player because of one bad season, then neither is just about anybody.
HBomb:
ReplyDeleteSouray is the only player on a team full of pussies that commands respect - he's the last player you look to move.
Dennis: All good points - although I think Pisani is worth every dime.
Dago: That seems like the right move to dress the swingman 43; he can play D if the kid looks overwhelmed or he could go out and just muck around on the 4th.
ReplyDeleteDude's been alright at forward so that's not a bad call at all.
LB: Good call on Garon; I missed that one for sure. But Pronger was signed under the old 39 mill cap and he was signed for something like 6/30, right? So I had no problem with the contract but he was making 6 mill of a possible 39 so that's not a bargain by any stretch.
//Here's where we agree, and here's something I don't get - from my eye, Cogliano can't win a faceoff to save his life, so if we've got Horcoff-Gagner-Brodziak-Pouliot when all are healthy, why is he still playing center? Is he actually that much better in all the other facets of the game that putting up with a 38% faceoff percentage is tolerable?//
ReplyDeleteMacT has tried Cogliano on wing. He is horrible/lost there. They've made the decision to develop him as a centre, and live with the growing pains.
Dennis: As I understand it, the NMC is team-specific, i.e the clause doesn't say "Player X may not be traded without permission" but rather "Player X may not be traded from Team X without his permssion".
ReplyDeleteOnce dealt from L.A., Visnovsky's NMC is gone, and I believe that's been confirmed by a ocuple MSM guys.
Conklin getting the start for Detroit! We can win this one!
ReplyDeleteWell, that was fast.
ReplyDeleteStupid penalty by Roloson. Moreau didn't get it deep.
ReplyDeleteHeads not in it.
Let's see how they respond to a bad start.
ReplyDeleteMethinks this one is going to be a gonger. You know Detroit is licking their chops right now.
ReplyDeleteAnd they scored twice while I was writing this... so...
Avery is a plus player playing against real players.
ReplyDeleteI never denied that. Good Sean Avery can play on my team any day; I simply see no reason to believe we'd get that, given his non-NYR track record.
Since this game is likely to be a disaster, we need a Kevin Quinn drinking game. We'll start the bidding with one for every time he calls Ethan Moreau or Nicklas Lidstrom simply, "The Captain," and once for every "lets the shot go." Those seem to be particular habits of his, so everyone should be in the proper state of mind inside ten minutes.
Anyone have a link.... the ATDHE.net link is showing basketball.
ReplyDeleteFuck, I go to the garbage chute, come back, and it's already 2-0?
ReplyDeleteShit.
lol, 4th line... it's quite sad actually...
ReplyDeleteYou know, I have a bottle of superb light rum I've been waiting to open. I think now might be a good time.
ReplyDeleteNice d-coverage Pouliot.
ReplyDeleteThis team has been terminally unready to play this year.
oh forget it.... they got it fixed :-)
ReplyDeletehttp://atdhe.net/live-tv-2.php?i=620
ReplyDelete@NB: Grab the second ATDHE link. It's hockey.
ReplyDelete2-0 Wings already. Christ.
Is it possible to fire MacTavish during the timeout he called?
ReplyDelete2- 0 Wings.... wtf!
ReplyDeleteTraktor:
ReplyDeleteAgreed on Pisani - if there's going to be one pricey bottom sixer on this team, he's the guy you keep (NOT Moreau).
And I was not a fan of the Souray signing at the time, but I'd have an awfully hard time moving him right now based on what you mentioned (like Erik Cole, he brings what this team doesn't have enough of).
But for a guy like Bouwmeester, I don't think there's many untouchables.
gagner has got to finish that...
ReplyDeleteGagner needed to bury that one.
ReplyDeleteI see Liam Reddox has "elbow to poosing player's head" down pat.
ReplyDeleteGagner is going to start putting up some points soonh. He's been getting alot of chances lately.
ReplyDeleteEnter Deslauriers?
ReplyDeleteUn-freaking-real.
ReplyDelete3-0, 5:44 in.
ReplyDeleteNot surprised. Not one bit.
Happened again. I try to watch a game, they go down 3-0 six minutes in.
ReplyDeleteGood thing I have all this work to do. /sigh
Rod Phillips just called this "an abomination".
ReplyDeleteI'm inclined to agree.
Good thing 77 and 10 are bums and this team would be much better off without them.
ReplyDeleteGagner's been rolling snake eyes all year. I'm picking him in all my pools next year - the worm is going to turn and he's going to kill the soft in his 3rd year. Book it.
ReplyDeleteQuinn: "...the Oilers need something to happen here".
ReplyDeleteThis is true on so many levels.
Weee! Where's my beer.
ReplyDeleteWe still have Dany Sabourin's rights, right?
ReplyDeleteI'm rather upset at this 5-78-46 line right now.
ReplyDeleteHate to tell the refs - that was not offsides.
ReplyDeleteBut that's what happens when you're done 3-0 this fast.
Lord Bob: I'd call it an abortion. More tasteless.
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to get the feeling this is going to be a blowout.
ReplyDeleteUh, was Smid just playing on the wing?
ReplyDeleteWhat was Peckham doing out there taking an own zone draw against Zetterberg?
ReplyDeleteJonathan,
ReplyDeleteAnd here I thought Smid was caught pinching on the 2nd goal. They've got Struds on D and Smid on the wing. Ugh.
They're asking for a 10-0 blowout today.
Our best offensive chance came off Peckam's shot. Ouch.
ReplyDeleteDetroit commentator's sound embarrassed for the Oilers. I'm agreeing.
Come on, Huddy. Smack MacTavish on the back of the head with a stick and take over. No jury will convict you.
ReplyDeleteSmooth. Didn't Horcoff play his college in Michigan? When is he UFA anyway?
ReplyDeleteIs there anything at nhl.com that measures "minutes spent chasing opponent who has puck?"
We're close to a record already.
Can anyone explain to me why, facing one of the best teams in the league, down the team's best centre and arguably best defenseman, MacTavish started Roli over Deslauriers?
ReplyDeleteSome games are write-offs.
Who's more suited for the 1st line, Brodziak or Cogliano?
ReplyDeleteWho's more suited for the 3rd line, Brodziak or Cogliano?
MacTavish refused to even give Brodizak the 3rd line role and now he's good enough for 1st line duties?
Traktor: We'll see if it lasts. At the moment I'm far angrier about Ladislav Smid's return to the 4th line.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, most of Brodziak's minutes this game are going to come as the faceoff guy in the defensive zone, since he's seemingly the only player MacTavish trusts in that role.
Fuck, I'd love to have that guy on the Oil.
ReplyDeleteSee, here's my problem with that. I'm an Oiler fan, and i like to have little pride in my team. (Yeah, even today) Sean Fucking Avery is an emnbarrassment to whatever team and city he represents. Moreover, he's about the furthest thing from a "team player" I've ever seen.
No. Fucking. Way. do I want to see Avery in Edmonton. Ever. I don't care if he's free.
I wonder if Patrice Bergeron will be availible this offseason?
ReplyDeleteI have never been a MacTavish hater.... but I have seen myself start to become one this season. And I'm starting to agree with teh masses... I think its time for a coaching change.
ReplyDeleteThe team didn't show up ready to play... yet again?
Shades of losing the team in my mind.
And now on to today's game (now that it's already over)
ReplyDeleteTwo questions:
1) Why the fuck did Dwayne Roloson get the start?
2) Why the Fuck is he still in there?
Well that's a horseshit call.
ReplyDeleteRE: Avery.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before, but he'd never play for any team of mine.
On another note, Filpulla sure sold that penalty call.
Notorious ruffian Sam Gagner finally gets what's coming to him!
ReplyDeleteWE WANT TEN! WE WANT TEN!
ReplyDelete... and further to my previous comment... no, I don't think someone comes in and magically this team starts winning... but some new coaching tactics could do wonders.
ReplyDeleteIt's almost inconceivable that these two teams are in the same league, and better yet, have virtually the same payroll. You can't tell me that there isn't problems 'in the room' for the Oilers. They were unprepared and listless from the opening faceoff.
ReplyDeleteTime for JDD
ReplyDeleteGuys in contract years must just salivate at the thought of playing the Oilers.
ReplyDeleteEarth to MacT: get him the Fuck out of there.
ReplyDeleteI imagine retirement is gonna look pretty damn sweet after 30 more games of this garbage to old Roli.
ReplyDeleteEarth to MacT: get him the Fuck out of there.
ReplyDeleteNice tip.
ReplyDeleteWell, 4-zilch, and Roli's still in.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think MacTavish is trying to get fired.
Phil:
ReplyDeleteClose in salary?
The Oilers have over Horcoff (3.6), Visnovsky (5.6), Pisani (2.5) and Gilbert (4.0) all on the shelf rihgt now.
That's $15,700,000.
.... and any chance that Hossa signs here this off-season... is now a dream.
ReplyDeleteI'd bet my house on it!
... regardless how much Katts throws at him.
You know, MacT may (is) not be helping the situation, but this team's problem is they don't have enough good hockey players. Period.
ReplyDeleteWe want twenty! We want twenty!
ReplyDeleteGoala. G-O-A-LA. Go-go-go-go Goala...
ReplyDeleteWonder what Hossa's thinking right now :)
ReplyDeleteEarth to Katz: Get him the Fuck out of there.
ReplyDeleteRoloson won't be back for the 2nd.
ReplyDelete... the irony is how thiese blowouts are happening AFTER ge deal Garon.
In terms of dubious decision-making, this has been MacT's worst season as a coach.
ReplyDeletePDO: Gilbert is playing
ReplyDeleteIn sad news, James Whitmore, well-known for his role in The Shawshank Redemption, has died at age 87.
ReplyDeleteUnlike Whitmore's film character, though, the Oilers aren't even carving "MACTAVISH WAS HERE" in the wall as they hang themselves.
I hope this team has the good sense to be ashamed of themselves. I know I am.
ReplyDeleteSteve Staios leading the team in TOI.
ReplyDeleteYou know you're in trouble when ...
Kyle: Yes and no. This team has great depth on RW and D, but one veteran centre and a bunch of question marks at LW isn't inspiring.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the biggest single move the team could make would be to fire MacTavish.
How bad would you have to be in order to get benched in this game?
ReplyDelete.... and yes... just say no to Avery. We have enough of a circus in this town now as it is.
ReplyDeleteBruce: At least Staios looks angry. I like to see that in these situations.
ReplyDeleteJames Whitmore. Damn. Always liked him.
ReplyDelete@PDO - So you're saying that with those guys in, the Oilers even resemble a team that could carry the Wings' jock strap?
ReplyDeleteThe wings have four lines with a plan and play like they're fighting for a playoff spot.
The Oilers are fighting for a playoff spot, and wouldn't know a game plan if it pissed all over them.
They call him steady steve because his GAON/60 is very consistently high.
ReplyDeleteLT... I think Brods may have just done ot.
ReplyDeletelol
No Horcoff, no Pisani, no Visnovsky, no chance.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we'd still lose, but this is a big "fuck you" to all the idiots on the fanboards who think any of those guys isn't worth what they're paid.
Gilby's playing?
ReplyDeleteWhoops.
Ah well...
I've got a tiny TV at work turned on, so I'm reasonably distracted. Hard to say it's a bad thing.
So, Columbus plays San Jose tonight. How 'bout them Blue Jackets?
ReplyDeleteKyle: Yes and no. This team has great depth on RW and D, but one veteran centre and a bunch of question marks at LW isn't inspiring.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the biggest single move the team could make would be to fire MacTavish.
I'm not saying MacT should continue to be coach, I'm just saying this teams problems run a lot deeper than any of us would like to admit.
The kids are to young, the vets are too old, then we have a smattering of useful players in between. Maybe 6 or so.
I hate to break it to the team, but you can't exactly come back from a 5-0 deficit when you only have 3 shots.
ReplyDeletePDO: Those are four pretty damn important players you list there. It's no wonder they're down 5-0 already.
ReplyDeleteI want to say I'm upset, but given that I started Hudler, Datsyuk, and Conklin in fantasy today and that it was damn near a zero percentage winning chance, I don't think I'm too upset.
ReplyDeleteApparently one of the Detroit announcers asked Hossa if he had anything to prove to Edmonton... we offered him $9M a season for a decade! What does he need to prove to us! That he can be a really good hockey player for less?
A complete embarrassment.
ReplyDeleteSo Dennis - scoring chances for that period? :)
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of when I watched Canada v Kazakhstan at the world juniors. Or any Kazakhstan game for that matter.
ReplyDeleteWow that shoot around took a long time. When does the game start?
ReplyDeleteOh.
Fire MacT. Now.
ReplyDeleteWell that's an old fashioned kick shitting right there.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whats happening in the dressing room right now, I know after a period like that when I played the coachs would be breaking sticks and screaming until their voices gave out. I wonder if Mactavish has that in him.
ReplyDeleteWell I'm done with the game. It's now at the point I don't even get mad. Just shared a laugh filled with underlying sadness with my brother.
ReplyDeleteThere are simply too many issues with the team. Lack of quality depth down the middle. Young talent that mail it in *after* receiving long term contracts (Penner, Nilsson). Poor contracts (Penner, Staios, Moreau, Pisani). A coach who has been here nearly a decade who still makes rookie mistakes, rides his favourites, and tries to look smart as opposed to acting smart. A GM that bluffs NHL contributors under his nose (Glencross, Hejda) while giving one way contract to useless "assets" (Drouin-Deslauriers, Roy, Jacques). An owner who shares an association with the old boys network, and is more concerned with fucking over Edmonton taxpayers for personal gain and forcing the GM to sign personal friends (Laraque) rather than establishing a winning hockey team.
Nearly 3 years ago, John Davidson said after Pisani scored the game winner in G5, "The Edmonton Oilers...it is something that...it is something."
Today, John Davidson would finish off that though. "The Edmonton Oilers...it is something that resembles a clusterfuck."
FU Kevin Lowe.
5-0 is the most dangerous lead in hockey.
ReplyDeleteHave a good one, guys! I know I'll miss watching Jeff "No Chance of Clearing Waivers" Deslauriers, but I chose not to sink any more time into this particular game.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I'm expecting MacTavish to show up at a game, tear off his suit, reveal a Red Wings jersey, and announce that he'd been working for Detroit all this time.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we'd still lose, but this is a big "fuck you" to all the idiots on the fanboards who think any of those guys isn't worth what they're paid.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if the Oilers hadn't already been blown out 9-2, and 10-2 in the past couple of months with those guys in the lineup.
I think it's something more then just the players at this point.
St.Louis is the worst team in the Western Conference (Although the Oiler will probably have the worst goal differential after today) and their biggest loss is by 4 goals.
Christ, I'll be shocked if Detroit doesn't hit 10 at this rate.
ReplyDeleteBank Shot: At least in those two games, the team showed some level of compete and generated some chances. The goalies could not stop a beachball either night (in fact, I'd go on record as saying that the Oilers looked worse against Chicago this past Tuesday than in either of those games).
ReplyDeleteToday, they are flat-out not in the same league as the opposition. This one WAS over during the national anthem.
Peckham: Good player, keeps it simple, steep learning curve today lol, very strong against boards with a decent outlet pass(but to who? LOL...)
ReplyDeleteMoreau: Thinks and acts like he's the Boss. Kind of sad, really.
5-0!
Craig MacTavish: Something tells me he walks - during the game.
"Right now the Oilers look like a team without any spirit" sympathetic wings announcer
I think it was Bernie Geoffrion who just quit one time. They played a game, lost and he slept on it and resigned. Either a Ranger or Flame at the time iirc.
ReplyDeleteHow about Avery as head coach instead of MacTavish?
ReplyDeleteAnd people think Cole is going to stay in Edmonton.. for less money than he's making right now?
ReplyDeleteI doubt he would stay for 5 million.
Roli's last two starts against DET:
ReplyDelete.700 Sv%, 18.00 GAA
.688 Sv%, 15.00 GAA
So judging by GAA he's improving.
Hey, I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy. Too bad it's half full of hemlock.
Bruce: Hemlock? What's the alcohol content on that stuff?
ReplyDeleteKevin Lowe is busy washing his hands.
ReplyDeleteMacT is sitting in a lawn chair at a loading dock outside Joe Louis, half way through a king size pack of Malboros.
ReplyDelete