When a man loves a womanCan't keep his mind on nothing else
He'll trade the world
For the good thing he's found
If she's bad he can't see it
She can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend
If he put her down
When a man loves a woman
Spend his very last dime
Tryin' to hold on to what he needs
He'd give up all his comfort
Sleep out in the rain
If she said that's the way it ought to be
Well, this man loves a woman
I gave you everything I had
Tryin' to hold on to your precious love
Baby, please don't treat me bad
When a man loves a woman
Down deep in his soul
She can bring him such misery
If she plays him for a fool
He's the last one to know
Lovin' eyes can't ever see
-Calvin Lewis, Andrew Wright
Incredibly, it (apparently) came down to what Percy Sledge was singing about 30 years ago: When a Man Loves A Woman. Pronger and his wife (Lauren? is that her name) were ripped routinely by fans and media in Edmonton, which I would say is probably fair for a city that lives and breaths hockey. However, I await the uproar over these comments from Cal Nichols:
"Goodness, those guys are well off. If they want to get away, if it's too cold, if it's too dirty, they got the wherewithal to do whatever they want, including go back to the mansion in St. Louis, if that's the remedy. I guess I always felt, 'What the hell could be so bad that you couldn't work it out?' And if you can't work it out, you're not the first couple in the history of the world to have to say, 'I guess we're different and we've got to go our different ways.' "
Are you kidding me? Seriously. Why haven't more people made a fuss over this? Sweet Jesus, Mary and Joseph people this is a family we're talking about here! Look, I'm as pissed as the next guy Chris Pronger left Edmonton, but if you're married and the woman you love is living in St. Louis with the kids and you're in Edmonton and she says "you know honey, I don't think it's going to work out there" and you decide she and the family are more important than the job and the town, isn't that honorable? And even if you don't agree, how on planet earth can you seriously defend Nichols comments above? Tell me, please. I'd like to know.
With that as the backdrop, the question 12 months later is that same as it was draft day 2006: How to spend the Pronger money? With the cap supposedly in the $48M range, the Oilers have stated several times (Lowe and MacT) that they'd like to add two forwards and at least one defender. In the two previous posts we talked about the forwards, and here are some of the defensemen:
Jaroslav Spacek, Buffalo: He'll be 34 in February and his cap number is $3.33M for the next two seasons. The Sabres have some cap troubles this summer, and Spacek is a player who may be available. He played well for a long stretch after coming over in 05-06, and he's certainly a capable NHL player.
Wade Redden, Ottawa: He'll be 30 tomorrow and has one more year at $6.5M. Part of me knows getting Redden would cost so much that a team like Edmonton can't really afford it. One suspects that the cost would be one of Smith/Staios and a position player going all the way up to Raffi (we can discuss the payoff, but it'll be dear). The other part of me is idiot fan and I'll smile like a nutbar if they get him, just like I did when the Expos got Mark Langston.
Pavel Kubina, Toronto: He'll turn 31 next April and has three more years at $5M. In a way, Toronto has singlehandedly raised the price on one dimensional offensive talents and have done more to bugger up the cap than anyone (Sundin's contract will be announced soon, it's like waiting for a new Seinfeld episode). Kubina is maturing as a defender and could be a solid player moving forward, although the money is too much.
Joni Pitkanen, Philadelphia: He'll turn 24 in September and is an RFA (he made $2M next year). I'm including him because he keeps getting mentioned. There's a lot to like: he's a Finn, is a quality puck mover and has over 200 games NHL experience. Similar to Niinimaa in that the Flyers endured the growing pains before sending him to Edmonton.
Mike Van Ryn, Florida: He'll turn 29 next May and his cap number is $2.9M for the next three seasons. He's not an "A" choice, but there's some things to like in Van Ryn. Not terribly expensive, he's overshadowed on the Panthers and increased PP time might see his numbers rocket.
Derek Morris, Phoenix: Turns 29 in August and his cap number for the next 2 years is $3.917M. Is in the "Tom Bladon in Pittsburgh" stage of his career, where we all talk about when he was in Calgary. Not the worst option available, but there are plenty better.
Adrian Aucoin, Chicago: Turns 34 in August and will earn $4M for the next two seasons. Big guy, has stepped into the elevator shaft and is about as valuable as yesterday's paper. Has not aged well.
The UFA crop is more promising, and there are other options on the blueline (sign Hejda! why on earth has that not happened yet?) including one of the group in St. Louis (maybe Backman or Jackman).
I wonder if Percy Sledge can play?
(1) Broken record mode ON:
ReplyDeleteIf all else fails, Daryl Sydor.
(2) Prediction:
Smith isn't going anywhere, and will be extended this summer.
(3) Wade Redden:
Torres, Gilbert, and a pick should probably suffice,
or Torres, Greene, and a pick. Add Torres and Foligno to Ottawa's roster will make it more ready to rumble. Lots of defensively responsible centres for Torres to play with (Vermette, Fisher, Kelly).
Torres, Vermette/Kelly, and Neil would make an interesting line.
What about Andy Sutton? I know he's not a "puck mover", but he seems like the kind of guy that would get a lot of love in a town like EDM.
ReplyDeleteI dunno, I watched Sutton here in Atlanta a few times. I think he's crap. There's a reason their PK was so bad and it had something to do with Sutton being on the first PK pairing running around like an idiot.
ReplyDeleteI rather the Oilers signed DeVries.
LT:
ReplyDeleteNo Visnvosky? After the comments he recently (allegedly..) made about Crawford, he's a guy who could want out, and has a beauty contract (albeit, only for one more year).
Lupul + Greene for Visnovsky certainly makes sense from an Oiler POV. Not sure what LA needs, but they get some more kids to fit in with their nucleus.
Seriously LT, where is the love for Jan Hejda?
ReplyDeleteIf he walks, I'm gonna be so pissed.
I agree with godot10 on the package for Redden - an NHL player, a prospect and a pick would suffice. Of course they would have to have him extended first.
ReplyDeleteThey might want Staios instead of Torres - I still make it though. Then you have Redden/Smith, hopefully Hejda and then another vet on your second pair and then go from there.
Rivers - what is the deal on De Vries - he has fallen off the radar (well, not "the" radar, my radar) - is he a reasonable 2nd pair guy or is that hoping too much?
Also, interesting addition to the Huddy/MacT argument is how Spacek really fell off with the Sabres. From top four guy with the Oilers to bottom pair and barely playing with Buffalo.
Redden would be a overpay, both contract-wise and in terms of assets the other way. Sadly, I think kevin "Billy Beane" Lowe is just dumb enough and certainly feeling enough pressure that he'll fall for the name and give up on a player (torres) who could be an extremely valuable asset at a bargain rate for a long time to come.
ReplyDeleteSundin's contract will be announced soon, it's like waiting for a new Seinfeld episode
ReplyDeleteHaha! Thanks for the quotable LT.
Not a huge Redden fan so I wouldn't be in favour of even Redden for Greene straight up. Greene already is more physical and blocks more shots. He has good wheels and just needs experience. Redden is better now but factor in the $ and a couple of more years of icetime for Greene and in two years that looks like a bad deal for the Oilers. Estaban Loaiza for Michael Young.
ReplyDeleteFurther, I can't really agree with the underlying philosophy of the last few articles/ posts. Are we all in agreement the Oilers are not going to win the cup in 08 or 09? Then if they are not, why would we be trading for 30+ year old players that cost all lot in terms of assets. If we want the Oilers to be "Leaf's West" lets get in (soon to be fired) JFJ and be happy with an occassional playoff spot.
I would rather the Oilers build a powerhouse club thru the draft and player development. I have no problem spending short term big bucks on free agents to fill holes or jetsonning guys who clearly have no future here but I think trading the likes of Greene, Torres, Smid, Gilbert or even draft picks is looking pretty short term.
I am in favour of bringing in a Stuart via free agency. A #1 D provides a good basis for player development and the deal just costs $$. Hartnell up front would be nice too.
I'm sorta torn on what we should do here. On the one hand, you probably write this year off, because that's where it's going anyway, and you don't make a splash but then again I think this year's UFA-D crop projects to be much better than next year's so maybe you jump now. Plus, what we're seeing is a few guys going back with their "old" teams so hanging onto your players, ie Ryan Smyth, will never be an idea that's NOT in vogue.
ReplyDeleteThe shaking out of the D is gonna be interesting though. Gilbert had a good year in the A and looked at least ready for some kind of shot. Grebs has some good buzz, the Oilers project Smid to be more than he is, Staios is a lifer, Smith will soon need to be re-upped and Hejda did some good top 4 work last year but he's FA and there hasn't been one mention of him in this offseason. Plus, Oilers are talking Tarnstrom and have a decision to make on Matt Greene to boot. AND a kid like Smid needs 20 min to make a good first pass, Smith only makes about 20 a season and MacT wants a dman for the PP.
It's not fun or exciting times but I can't say it isn't interesting.
He played well for a long stretch after coming over in 05-06
ReplyDeleteAlso, interesting addition to the Huddy/MacT argument is how Spacek really fell off with the Sabres.
Let's also consider the fact that his partner was the same man that had Marc-Andre Bergeron looking like a 25-goal scorer at Christmas, and we all know how it ended once that pairing was split up. Hell, I'd never even heard of Spacek until a month before he came to Edmonton, when he submarined Byron Ritchie during a Flames-Hawks game I happened to flip past. The Sabres got hosed, and frankly, they can blame Pronger for that.
Part of me knows getting Redden would cost so much that a team like Edmonton can't really afford it.
I dunno, after the year he had, the price might have dropped quite a bit. Post-contract year slumps are one thing, but damn, he looked lost out there, especially in the Final. Ottawa will want something for him, but I don't think they'll get what they probably would've liked, which is good news if that's your target.
Big guy, [Aucoin] has stepped into the elevator shaft and is about as valuable as yesterday's paper. Has not aged well.
I haven't seen a whole lot of Chicago play, but I wonder how much of that is, well, playing for Chicago? Not that a move to these Oilers would be a giant step up, but it might be enough of one to jump-start him. I wouldn't advocate getting him, of course, not for that money, but I can't believe he's as bad as he looks. Is he?
Well, I'm not sure how trade pricing works anymore given some of the craziness lately at the trade deadline (20 rental games for what?).
ReplyDeleteRedden has 1 year left before UFA. Greene 3. Torres 3. I think Ottawa can only validly ask for 1 roster player and then for some "potential" in a prospect body.
Aucoin - Chronic groin injury, he's in buyout country.
ReplyDeleteRedden - too much salary, too much going back the other way.
Daryl Sydor/Andy Sutton - why not Nolan Pratt instead @ half the $$$?
Dan Hejda - Sign him! Interesting stat, Smith played 1/3 of his ES minutes with Hejda, 15 GF & 15 GA. Without Hejda -17.
One idea I've seen & liked - Lupul to Toronto for Kubina. Helps both teams I think.
Aucoin - Chronic groin injury, he's in buyout country.
ReplyDeleteThat answers my question, thanks.
Yesterday I suggested a coupe deals for Visnovsky and Redden but the more I think about it, I'd much rather have Pitkanen than Redden anyway.
ReplyDeleteHopefully there's some truth to the rumour mongering.
T
Visnovsky for 1 yr @ $1.9MM is worth what to L.A.???
Greene??? Same type of player who they would control for another what, 3 yrs???
So I suppose I have to go and add my two cents into this discussion.
ReplyDeleteSpacek: I don't really have a big problem with him as a player but the shine isn't as great as it once was when he was toiling away in Chicago at a cheap price. That being said, he's still a player that could prove valuable on a team that is as paper thin on the blueline as the Oilers. If he stepped in today, he'd be number 3 on the depth chart and I doubt anyone would argue that we couldn't use him.
Wade Redden: Scary proposition. He's had his struggles this season culminating in the HF Ottawa board trying to convince themselves that he's still a good player and refraining from running out of town. He's a big minute eater and I think Huddy et al. are good with the dmen when they're a bit longer in the tooth. I could see Muckler kicking the tires for old Wade Redden but it would likely cost us Torres + in return. That and it'd be only worth it if an extension could be reached because I can't see us giving up assets if that extension cannot be reached.
Pavel Kubina: 5 million dollars was a wacky price considering the allocation of monies that JFJ had done that offseason. Then again... I never really thought he was all that bright. Kubina's still value, though, and I wouldn't mind him here.
Joni Pitkanen: He was touted as a franchise dman coming out of the draft and possibly better than Bouwmeester if you asked some scouts. But it looks like things have stalled a bit for him. Looking at him stat-wise, he's a very high event player but it's hard to separate how much of that is on him and the debacle that was Philadelphia this season. Esche/Nittymaki worse or better than Conklin/Markaanen? I'd take him here in a heartbeat and be willing to give up Greene/Schremp etc. (But then... that isn't really much if you know me ;) )
Mike Van Ryan: I don't think he's available and I haven't heard any rumblings that he would be.
----
Aside from those names, I have a couple more to add. Isn't Danny Markov an UFA after the one year contract from Detroit? And how about a guy like David Tanabe from Carolina?
Dan Hejda - Sign him! Interesting stat, Smith played 1/3 of his ES minutes with Hejda, 15 GF & 15 GA. Without Hejda -17.
ReplyDeleteLet's not go too far with that one.
Smith/Hejda played together when the Oilers were decent.
I imagine the results for Smith/Tjarnqvist look almost identical.
Am I the only one that really likes Norstrom?
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I imagine Dallas will just keep him.
One other player to add to the list - Adam Foote. As a one year rental, I think he'd be OK. He's not a panacea, because he's useless on the PP, but the Oilers are in the market for a little of everything IMO.
I imagine the results for Smith/Tjarnqvist look almost identical.
ReplyDeleteYes, -1 with less minutes.
That's when the Oilers were even better than during the Smith/Hejda era.
The funny one is Hejda & Bergeron;
2 minutes, 42 seconds together and 3 goals against
Riv - fair enough. Didnt ever watch a Thrashers, game, was just cruising stat sheets (I know) of UFA's.
ReplyDelete- Retain Hejda
ReplyDelete- Extend Smith
- Sign Hannan
- Trade for Pitkanen
- Staios sticks.
- Keep Gilbert and Greene
- Use Smid and Grebeshkov in deals, Grebeshkov due to circumstance, Smid to capitalize on the hype.
Smith Hannan
Staios Pitkanen
Greene Hejda
EXT: Gilbert
That's what I'd do. But I'm not GM.
doogie - actually I'm not even talking about that Spacek - I'm talking about the Spacek who played in the playoffs with Staios.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, he did play with Pronger but come playoff time he and Staios were joined at the hip, plus of course he had a lot of time on the PP.
Have to separate him from Pronger but he did a good job with Staios - I thought the Sabres gave him too much but I was really surprised how he just fell out of their plans come playoff time.
Rivers - what is the deal on De Vries - he has fallen off the radar (well, not "the" radar, my radar) - is he a reasonable 2nd pair guy or is that hoping too much?
ReplyDeleteI thought he looked decent here. One of those players you don't notice much with that being a good thing.
I don't even worry about those types of signings for the Oilers. If Lowe and friends sign a dman older than 26, chances are that he's pretty damn good. They don't screw up too often as long as they actually pull the trigger.
If they pass on deVries to sign Sutton or some other guy, I'll probably just wait and see what happens because I do have faith when it comes to the Lowe-led Oilers and veteran dmen.
BDHS - Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Spacek's junk. I was never a huge fan of his, but second pairing with another quality 3-4 guy at $2.0-2.5M? Sounds okay to me. Just saying, he's not worth the money he's getting, and I think the impact of Pronger, both direct (when they were paired) and indirect (standard ripple effect) made him look like a lot more than he is. You may be right about the coaching, too, but I don't know if you can really overestimate what Pronger did for the entire D corps his year up north.
ReplyDeleteAlso, didn't he only wind up going on the second paring (with Gator joining Pronger at the top) in the second or third round? My memory's a little fuzzy, I had a lot going on that summer.
doogie - this may be a dead thread now but we'll see
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure it was Smith/Pronger pretty well from the get go come playoff time
I won't argue the Pronger effect at all - we saw it this year for sure.
And I actually agree with you - second pair guy at the price you say is how I have him pegged. I would have liked to have him back but when Buffalo forked out what they did I was glad he had passed on the Oilers. He is a top pair guy if with someone like Pronger but I'd rather Smith in that role. He's a second pair guy for sure.
I think we actually agree, just a roundabout way to get there.