This is Mark Messier, age 18. He was on the way to a 1-goal season with the Cincinnati Stingers (WHA) after Indianapolis folded earlier in the year (one day we'll do a "family tree" of WHA teams. It'll take the full 24 hours.).I'm rarely critical of Mark Messier. He was a stunning hockey player, wonderful in a wide variety of areas. Played forward like Pronger sometimes plays defense, rugged and mean. I once asked my father-in-law who was closest in spirit to Gordie Howe in his heydey and he named Messier without hesitation (although he did say Messier was filthy and Howe was just effective whatever that means). The day he was dealt by Edmonton for mere humans was a bad day at Black Rock.
Counting today, Mark Messier has expressed interest in getting into management at the NHL level exactly twice. As far as I know, this is the extent of his experience in the area. Mulling it over, that's it. His resume is a little light on details and a little heavy on who he knows, but I have little doubt there's a GM job in his future.
Looking around the NHL these days, it's amazing how many former Oilers players and managers are in top level jobs. Sather, John Muckler and Kevin Lowe are general managers, Craig MacTavish, Wayne Gretzky and Jim Playfair are coaches.
If we make a list of all NHL general managers and coaches (total: 60), and add up the number of years each spent learning the job in junior or the minor leagues, and then added to that the number of years they spent in an assistant position at the big league level before getting elevated to the glory position, and then divided by 60 (total number in survey), where do you think Wayne Gretzky ranks? Kevin Lowe?
Mark Messier doesn't deserve the asst GM job in NYC because he isn't qualified. Can anyone give me a good reason aside from the Edmonton connection for Mark Messier to get this job?
I read recently that other NHL coaches were thrilled when New Jersey lost in the playoffs under Lou Lamoriello. Reason? Because Sweet Lou fired Claude Julien at the end of a pretty successful year so he could coach the team. It was (correctly imo) viewed as unseemly. I loved the fact that the story got enough coverage in the electronic media to become a legit story.
Why then is there no uproar over Mark Messier being mentioned as a possible replacement to Don Maloney? What in hell did he do to deserve it?
He played for the Edmonton Oilers in the 1980s, that's what he did. Clear the track, baby, another former Oiler is on his way to a mediocre career in management and one of the likely reasons is that most of these guys can't be bothered with learning from more experienced managers.
Mark Messier gets mentioned for this job because he's famous. If I'm Scott Howson, it pisses me off. The NHL has a reputation for being a bit Mickey Mouse in certain areas, and here's one.
Earn the damn job.
LT,
ReplyDeleteCan't say I disagree with the sentiment on earning the job but I suspect the fact he is a god in NYC probably has as much to do with it as the Oiler's connection.
How do you earn that job? And if selling tickets and an image is part of the GM job, who sells more tickets?
ReplyDeleteMark Messier, or Scott Howson?
Kevin Lowe, or LT or Vic or Oilswell or MC etc?
What about Yzerman though, LT? I think that's the way to go, really - best of both worlds for the club. Make the guy VP of something.
ReplyDeleteThat way his name and face are still associated with the team (isn't Luciano Robitelli doing the same gig for the Kings?)while he can learn, if he so desires, the business.
Interesting how Yzerman has been fast tracked - one year after retirement and he's picking the WC team. Who were his assistants on that gig?
Good job. Especially picking Andy Murray.
Pat, just by memory I'm thinking that Tambellini was over there helping Yzerman out and I know that Fergy Jr was over there as well. I don't like Yzerman, and it seems like he got a plum position right off the bat, but there's no doubt that he's doing things right by scouting a lot and trying to learn as much as he can. I guess Jim Nill is still Holland's assistant, right? So right off the bat, if Mess gets the assistant job at MSG, he'll have jumped Yzerman without doing one day's job of scouting in his life.
ReplyDeleteThe FOG acroynm is pretty popular these days but long before anyone came up with that one, I was talking about GAB's, Good Albertan Boys, and specifically WAC's, Won A Cup. It seems like a good time to bring back the latter. And for the same reason that no one's gonna bleet if Mess gets this job, no one will do the appropriate hatchet job on Lowe for the Pronger trade. Guys who win Cups carrying a signigicant amount of truck. It rots me to no end and it seems like nearly all journalists are afraid to break that chain.
I mean c'mon, Lowe's braying like a donkey about cheering for Ana to get to the SCF and no one has the balls or good sense to say, "Uh, Kevin. Shouldn't you just shut up and hope that everyone forgets about that deal.?" Even a guy like Duhatschek went along for the ride.
you know, it's not like you see even that much critisism of the Pronger trade from amongst general fans.
ReplyDeleteI'll be if you went to HF and posted a "Where does the Pronger trade rank amongst the worst of the last five years?" topic, you'd get a pretty high number of people saying "well, the Ducks won it for now, but Edmonton could easily be the winners over the long term".
speeds: I have no problem as long as he's not making ANY decision about players.
ReplyDeleteIf it's a PR position, great. He's perfect. Kind of like the Queen.
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ReplyDeleteLT: Lowe is making decisions about players.
ReplyDeleteDifferent franchises, at different times, will have different needs out of the GM position.
When Lowe was hired, selling tickets was a serious concern. Does anyone think that Lowe's Cup wins with the Oilers hurt his standing in landing the GM position? Did it help slightly? Was it largely the reason he got the job, with the whole "Kevin Lowe's been there before and knows what it takes" mindset?
Might it be possible that, given EDM's newfound financial position, the next time they hire a GM they will weight their decision slightly more based on managerial ability/experience than they did before, and less so on nostalgia and confidence for fans/selling tickets?
NOTE: I'm not saying the only reason Lowe got the job was that he used to play for the Oilers; I have no idea how the EIG went about their hiring process or how Lowe (and any others) interviewed, or what the EIG was looking for in a GM last time around.
LT you don't seem to like the famous former Oilers ;)
ReplyDeleteSeriously on the earn the damn job front, I think you're forgetting how many famous and great coaches/GMs started those jobs right out of pro-careers.
Sports may be getting more complicated, but it has a long history of people that know the game well jumping into roles ahead of those with more experience due to fame and past success. It doesn't always work but it doesn't always fail either.
That's my point Dennis actually - make Messier a VP of nothing. Then see where he goes - if he's interested in doing the work then he'll be at the rinks like Yzerman. I think Gilmour does the same for the Leafs. I don't know what Robitaille does.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand if he just wants to get the accolades well then he can be Wendel Clark or Darryl Sittler - go to charity events and golf tournaments. Thats ok too. Its just what they are doing.
If Sather were as smart as he thinks he is then he would take that tact. Offer Messier a job and tell him to do with it what he will.
Thing is with James Dolan running the joint messier might be GM by the end of June - ever read Mike Lupica about Dolan, Isaiah Thomas and the Knicks - what a disaster.
Its not just hockey guys. Ever take a look at soccer? How about the coaching replacements for the National Men's team after Osieck left?
ReplyDeleteSpeeds: I don't have the information to confirm/deny your suggestion re: different needs from a GM and how that applies to Lowe but if you're onto something then that's a very astute observation on your part.
ReplyDeleteBlack Dog: I agree 100% with the "make Messier the VP of nothing" idea. Give him some minor responsibilities, a lot of work involving the public, but also some of the structure of higher up positions and someone to watch/teach when necessary. If he's up to the task he'll pass that sort of test leaving not even a glimmer of doubt and then you can step him up until he's learned enough to actually be important.
I realize there is enough hockey tradition to just make someone as famous as Messier a coach, scout, manager, etc but IMO he's no different right now than an NHL prospect. Play him in appropriate roles where he can succeed, observe success, and THEN move him onto tougher opposition.
Julien, all my buddies that watch hockey are still laughing over the Pronger return, and these are the guys that were laughing at Smid and Lupul ALONE, these aren't fellows who have opined about just what in the fuck is a 1st rounder worth that's gonna be 29 or 30th or how great do we expect those picks to be next year because I doubt Ana's gonna take a big plunge.
ReplyDeleteSo, I'll take your point to mean that a lot of people at HF are idiots, which is something we knew anyway.
Pat, I know a little about MSG and the whole Isiah thing but I can't stand Lupica. I love ESPN's The Reporters but he turns my guts. That fake laugh of his? I can't stand it.
The whole Canadian soccer program is really disheartening though. There has to be more than one reason why we can't break the top 50 at least. Same with the hoops program, it pisses me off that Nash has given up but at least he actually played. Macgloire, sp, is just being a bitch about it all.
Anyway, Speeds is looking at things from a different angle and I can certainly appreciate that but I really can't buy the idea of a GM as a figurehead.
I'm divided on this issue. No doubt he would be a better GM with coaching experience, contract negotiation, maybe running an AHL team first.
ReplyDeleteBUT this doesn't only happen in hockey. You see a lot of people getting fast-tracked in several industries. Look at some Fortune 500 companies and you'll find CEO's in their 30's.
Clearly experience is nice to have (and Mess must have learned something in his 30years of pro hockey) but I don't see it as mandatory if the guy is strong in other areas.
OT: this is such a great blog. Congratulations! Hockey fans are lucky now a days, you don't have to wait 3 months to read a Matheson article on how hard Dan Cleary is trainging in the summer - we have a blog like this.
Dennis - oh Lupica is, well, smarmy, insufferable, arrogant, loud etc etc.
ReplyDeleteBut the guy, imo anyhow, is a terrific writer - I read his column daily. He has his own unique style. He has a real sense of history and he knows sports. He also has no sacred cows.
He tears into James Dolan weekly for what he has done to the Knicks and his great line was how, until this year anyhow, neither the Rangers nor the Knicks had won a single playoff series since he took charge. Quite a few rips on Sather too.
Bob Ryan is the greatest. I like Mitch Albom on the show but can't stand his columns.
Not to dogpile on #11, but is it unfair to further mention that Messier has never once given the impression of being intelligent? Sure he can shoot the puck and break bones, but those among the GM ranks whose faculties extend beyond these skills and colouring would really eat his lunch. Not to mention slick and greedy agents...
ReplyDeletespeeds: I think the Oilers actually protected Lowe early on, with Prendergast (who had applied for both EDM and CGY general managers jobs) in the group and also Howson along to help out.
ReplyDeleteI do think he displayed some inexperience in the Comrie situation, and the Pronger thing bit him hard no doubt but I'm not going to slay him over that since I thought the return was fine at the time.
Lowe had a coaching background when named GM. Better than Messier, but would it kill these guys to play asst GM for a year or two?
Shawn: I like them fine, but just because you're a great player doesn't mean you'll be even a good GM. Mickey Mantle retired to become the Yankees batting coach, and his first pupil was 1b Joe Pepitone who had a hard time with curveballs when he came to the show.
So Mantle asks him when he picks up the ball from the pitcher, and poor Pepitone says something like "I see the ball and swing".
MANTLE says something like "well you should be able to pick up the rotation out of the pitcher's hand" which about 5 people a century can do of course.
Lowe imo will have a career as a GM, and will be better with his second club (probably next summer).
Would it have killed him to spend a year helping Prendergast instead of the other way around?
I think it's a legit question.
Lain, you liked the return at the time, that just shows that both you AND Lowe were wrong;) Seriously, one of the worst deals in recent memory.
ReplyDeletePat, Bob Ryan is just outstanding. He's still hip enough to be able to cover a decidely young and african-american sport like the NBA yet he's also old enough to remeber a lot of the historical gear and he ties it all together quite nicely.
Anyone read Jones's latest Lupul update?
ReplyDeleteHere's THE snippet:
___Lupul, who other than going back to Edmonton for a week in late June to move into a new house he's purchased, plans to spend his entire summer in L.A.
"It's a great place to be for young single guys like myself."
And he wouldn't say no if some of the Ducks asked him to join them in celebration if they win the Stanley Cup.
"That could be a lot of fun."
Sweet fuck. Seriously. This is a guy that Lowe bet on? This guy wants nothing to do with playing hockey anywhere where hockey means something. Now if I was Lupul would I want to be in a place where I could drill hot women and no one cared if I didn't live up to my potential? Yeah, probably. On the other hand, if I was Lowe would I build a trade around this guy and then decide to PAY him right off the fucking bat?
Wow, this gets worst by the day and by the quote. And the whole thing about celebrating with the Ducks if they win? I mean I don't know what the protocol is on ex-teammates celebrating with their old club and I'm not saying that Lupul would be the first but seriously, keep your mouth shut and don't make yourself or your GM look any worse than they already do.
Gob, meet Smacked.
Dennis: Yes.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong. I hope they trade him right fucking now.
ReplyDeleteBut at least he is spending time with Moreau's brother working out this summer apparently.
Kid hasn't a clue though.
How could he be working out with Moreau's brother if he's in California all summer? Uh oh.
ReplyDeleteMeh. I don't see it being a big deal. These are the guys he started his NHL career with and it seems to me he's giving his honest opinion. Perhaps it doesn't read well for Oilers fans, but would anyone really believe it if he said anything different?
ReplyDeleteLupul's on-ice performance this season was horrible, and he certainly doesn't have Kevin Lowe's ability to fram the issues.
But it sounded sincere to me. I'd rather see that than the usual crap. I know I'd be jealous if the guys I came through the system with won it together and I was on the outside looking in.
jon - sounds like Moreau (Chad not Ethan) has a few of them there - Stoll was also mentioned and I would guess his brother too
ReplyDeleteLT, you won't turn on the guy anyway;)
ReplyDeleteDennis: He played like crap, but there's no reason to bury the guy because Kevin Lowe traded Chris Pronger to get him.
ReplyDeleteI always thought it'd be a lot funnier if I met Derek Zoolander or at least someone who could've inspired the movie.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't have been more wrong.
Lowetide said...
ReplyDeleteDennis: He played like crap, but there's no reason to bury the guy because Kevin Lowe traded Chris Pronger to get him.
Yeah the fact that he was crap should really be enough.
I can't believe this but the Pronger thing actually helps Lupul deflect criticism. If he was traded for Torres or a bunch of picks (errr... assets?) then he'd have no one looking to coddle him. Everyone would just admit that he got shelled for 81 games and responded by basically rolling over and sucking his thumb while pining for Orange County.
At least even Bob Stauffer finally picked Joffrey's pubes out of his teeth and admitted that the guy was terrible this year. That was a triumph of reason over aural fellatio if I've ever seen one.
You know I'd almost rathe see Lupul have a great year next yer not just because he's an Oiler but because you guys are so bloody irritating.
ReplyDeleteHe a young guy who had a bad season, he didn't murder your puppy.
Even if the kid ends up being a long term bust, don't take it personally.
Shawn said...
ReplyDeleteYou know I'd almost rathe see Lupul have a great year next yer not just because he's an Oiler but because you guys are so bloody irritating.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I know that I post to make you happy so I'm a little disappointed right now.
For me, the trade and Joffrey Lupul are two different issues. The issue I have right now is that Lupul sucked last year and he's pulling down a decent cap hit thanks to a contract awarded for potential.
He a young guy who had a bad season, he didn't murder your puppy.
Even if the kid ends up being a long term bust, don't take it personally.
I can't fathom what makes you think I'm taking this personally.
Dennis my man - relax. LT thought that the trade was good, he was wrong, he's acknowledged it. If hell freezes over and Lupul acquires a set of testicles, I'm sure he won't rub your face in it.
ReplyDeleteAs for Lupul's comments...seriously, who fucking cares. I agree with what LT said about the being jealous part plus Jones obviously fucking set him up. He seems like a terrible fit for Edmonton, both from the perspective of the team and the market, but that's on Lowe more than him, I think. It's all fine and well to rip him for sucking - I've done it as much as anyone and I loathe the guy, but LT is right that the fact he was traded for Pronger isn't his fault. It's just unfortunate that Lowe had such a visible hardon for him. That's on Lowe though, and part of the reason he should be fired.
"It's a great place to be for young single guys like myself."
ReplyDeleteForget everything else, this kid wouldn't know how to use a reflexive pronoun if one grabbed him by the scrotum. It's "guys like ME," Jeff. (Yes, I said "Jeff.") It isn't more formal to use "myself," just wrong.
doogie - nothing there to grab
ReplyDeleteMore on Lowe is the contract he gave him - that, more then anything, is why they should trade him.
What a millstone.
Lupul just doesn't care enough and I don't understand why Lowe didn't see that and why he gave him big money right off the bloody bat.
ReplyDelete